Is there any way we can complain on moderators and/or get any explanation to their actions?

Artis · April 2016

Today I finally decided to come back to a couple of topics that were interesting enough to follow the discussion. However, I found that some posts were removed, including some of my posts, 2 of which I posted less than an hour before creating this thread. There was absolutely no reference to any forum rules and I don't understand why those posts were removed while some others stayed in the thread, even though they are pretty much the same in terms of "offensiveness" or whatever.

I also found that one topic was removed, and it was an interesting one. Turns out people can create topics praising lgbt quests and npcs, develop entire threads asking to give females special treatment and armors where one of the arguments is that they "can't relate". But for some reason they can't ask for more genders or discuss the issue. I can't even guess what happens if someone creates a topic asking to have a crotch on a male armor (adjustable size of course in character creation) or complaining about lgbt quests/npcs etc.

Is it an official position of ZOS that pluralism is forbidden and people can only voice their opinions if they are in accordance with the common narrative? But then again, why do they care about some people not to be offended, but not about others? How are others worse?

Anyways, is there any way moderators can be more specific about the reasons why posts/threads are removed (while others aren't)? And if they fail to do so - how can we know which moderator exactly did this so we can point at other topics/posts they didn't touch or at the forum rules to show that they didn't do a great job... and how can we complain on them and their abuse of authority sometimes?

ZOS_GinaBruno · April 2016

In general if a post of yours was removed for any reason, you should receive a PM explaining why. That said, if you have any questions about a moderator's action, feel free to message a staff member/admin privately and we'll be glad to look into it for you.

ZOS_AlanG · April 2016

When removing content, we'll either message everyone individually, or post an in-thread notice. The latter typically happens when a large amount of content is removed, in part because such threads usually need a general rules reminder.

If we're removing a large amount of content, and posting an in-thread reminder, chances are many of the deleted posts didn't break the rules. However, replies to problematic content may be removed because they no longer make sense without the original content. In other situations, they're part of a side discussion that is off topic or volatile that we are putting an end to.

Artemis wrote: »

And if it's not so, then how can I complain on a moderator for abuse of authority?

If you have a question about forum moderation, or wish to appeal an action, you can submit a support ticket detailing the issue, and it will be investigated.

I'll point out that these instructions are found in the forum rules, in the section explaining that it isn't appropriate to discuss disciplinary actions on the forums. We're happy to leave this thread open for general questions about forum moderation, but please do not post specific examples.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

So you actually think not having one's gender ignored and taken for granted equals "special treatment?"

This thread will last long.

Well, first of all - there are no crotches on male armor, like someone else mentioned in that thread, but no body is considering this.
Second of all - there was a thread asking if there was enough genders. So do you actually think that not ignoring one gender but not letting people of other genders have their gender implemented in game "not special treatment"? That looks like double standard.

Again, this thread is not about that. This thread is about which rules should we follow and which rules should moderators follow.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it will create unnecessary arguments/hate speech etc they will remove it.

I know of which thread you speak.

You do not want people like me commenting in it.

You'll get mad and ill get banned, best to let it be,

I do. I want everyone to have equal opportunity to express their opinions. What about freedom of speech and equality?

Why can they delete comments and entire threads that get some people mad, but leave other comments and threads that get other people mad?? Why are some people and their concerns are worse than others? And if it's not so, then how can I complain on a moderator for abuse of authority?

@Gidorick , thanks for reply.

So I see, some people want to have fun but don't care that others are offended and zos doesn't care either. It's a particular moderator deciding whether he/she/ze(lol) likes something or not? We definitely should have an option to report that stuff and have some transparent system where we can see what actions were applied to those moderators. Or get a clear response with references to forum rules so that later we can refer to those responses when we report posts/threads moderators choose to ignore.

@Artis : If you are referring to the US Constitution's freedom of speech in the 1st amendment; that freedom of speech only applies to government censorship. It means that the government cannot suppress the right of the people to voice their opinions in any way.

That 1st amendment does not apply to private companies or their public-use Forums on the internet.

While it may seem "unfair", the world isn't fair. Sorry to tell it like it is, but if you carefully read the ToS, none of us really have any rights in regards to these Forums.

Artis · May 2016

Kalebron wrote: »

For what purpose would there to have the package size increase on your character or to complain about a quest involving any LGBT situation or other. I believe to complain about it means you are prejudice and expect some sort of privilege. This is a game not the politically charged state controversy over equal rights and such. This is not a good topic and should be deleted. It provokes politics plain and simple.

Deleting such threads is tyranny and politics. People are allowed to have different opinions, you know. Not everyone is happy with some things they do

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We have no problem with moderation being discussed generally, but please do not discuss specific actions. As covered in the rules, this isn't allowed, and needs to be kept to PMs. In respect to everyone's privacy, we will not discuss actions taken on the forums with anyone except the person affected. So if someone is warned or suspended, we will not talk about this or even confirm it with other people.

If someone repeatedly breaks the rules future infractions are likely to involve disciplinary acts, and eventually a temporary suspension or permanent ban. It is also our policy to tell people if they are at risk of being suspended or banned for future infractions.

We are actually planning to tweak the strike system in the near future, and are expecting to post about this in the coming weeks.

But I just showed you above that it's NOT forbidden by the rules. Those topics didn't promote violence or anything like that. You should refer to certain articles in rules when you delete topics... There would be nothing for you to refer in that case. Nothing.

None of them contained hate speech or broke other rules. They were related to genders, sexual orientation etc (there's a list in rules), but weren't promoting violence or intolerance.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

That makes sense but is unfair, because it can also have other quotes and contribute to a discussion. But anyways, those 2 specific comments of mine didn't have any quotes deleted, they were just deleted. One of them quoted a moderator's generic "some comments were removed". Now I don't know if that was him or no. And how do I report whoever did that so that somebody else (obviously not him) considers it?

The moderators have to make choices. What is fair is relative and what one person considers fair in thee matters will often differ from another's oppinion.

With your own description it seems the topics and conversation was rather volitile and as such there should be no surprise action was deemed necessary. As such, and again based on what you posted, it should be of no surprise posts and threads were removed.

But there are topics that provoke me and are volitile for me. Those aren't deleted. Why am I worse than other people?

ZOS_AlanG · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

I'm wondering why I can't mark this question as answered. I did it long ago, surprised some necromancers brought it back to life

Once you tag a post as an answer the thread should be flagged as answered - but it will remain open.

We've pinned a thread just now about our general goal to maintain constructive discussion on the forums. It also includes a few adjustments to moderation. It's an open thread, so people can discuss the community expectations there. Since the topic is similar, and this has been necroed once, we'll go ahead and lock this one.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

Private messages are the only way to communicate with the moderators. Im sure if you ask for more detail they will give it to you. Usually you will see a comment someplace but I am sure any moderator can help you. Just they dont do it in public like this you have to message them.

Artis · April 2016

But I don't always know which moderator did something I want explained.
For example, this thread I liked just disappeared. How would I know who deleted it?

p.s. There has to be an open system, private messages only is not the best way. That way we can't keep them in check and make sure everyone obeys the same rules. Right now it's not the case, I see some posts removed while others are still there.

daemonios · April 2016

Also, often when you quote more... emphatic posts by other users your reply will get deleted along with the offending post, so as not to leave any traces behind.

Artis · April 2016

That makes sense but is unfair, because it can also have other quotes and contribute to a discussion. But anyways, those 2 specific comments of mine didn't have any quotes deleted, they were just deleted. One of them quoted a moderator's generic "some comments were removed". Now I don't know if that was him or no. And how do I report whoever did that so that somebody else (obviously not him) considers it?

MasterSpatula · April 2016

So you actually think not having one's gender ignored and taken for granted equals "special treatment?"

This thread will last long.

Waffennacht · April 2016

If it will create unnecessary arguments/hate speech etc they will remove it.

I know of which thread you speak.

You do not want people like me commenting in it.

You'll get mad and ill get banned, best to let it be,

Gidorick · April 2016

From what I've seen @Artemis ... it's pretty much a "If you don't like it... there's the door" situation.

There was a post on a thread that contained a meme (I won't way which once because I don't want to brake forum rules) ... and I found the meme, in the context of the thread, to be HIGHLY offensive. I reported the post to get it removed... waited... nothing... reported it again. Still nothing. I think I reported it a few more times before contacting a mod about it directly.

I was told that the post was deemed non-offensive and they explained to me why. I then replied and explained them the origins of the meme and that their understanding was incorrect. I even pointed them to the original media from which the meme was taken. I explained that the meme, taken in it's original context along with the context of the thread in which it was posted, was egregiously offensive to me. Not only that, but the meme didn't spark additional conversation and added nothing to the thread and was there only to troll... which I THOUGHT was enough to get a post removed.

That post is there to this day. I just checked.

So I'm not really sure what the guidelines are. I think it's up to the whims of the individual mod.

Now watch me get a warning for discussing this on the forum. That seems about right.

Artis · April 2016

MasterSpatula wrote: »

So you actually think not having one's gender ignored and taken for granted equals "special treatment?"

This thread will last long.

Well, first of all - there are no crotches on male armor, like someone else mentioned in that thread, but no body is considering this.
Second of all - there was a thread asking if there was enough genders. So do you actually think that not ignoring one gender but not letting people of other genders have their gender implemented in game "not special treatment"? That looks like double standard.

Again, this thread is not about that. This thread is about which rules should we follow and which rules should moderators follow.

Waffennacht wrote: »

If it will create unnecessary arguments/hate speech etc they will remove it.

I know of which thread you speak.

You do not want people like me commenting in it.

You'll get mad and ill get banned, best to let it be,

I do. I want everyone to have equal opportunity to express their opinions. What about freedom of speech and equality?

Why can they delete comments and entire threads that get some people mad, but leave other comments and threads that get other people mad?? Why are some people and their concerns are worse than others? And if it's not so, then how can I complain on a moderator for abuse of authority?

@Gidorick , thanks for reply.

So I see, some people want to have fun but don't care that others are offended and zos doesn't care either. It's a particular moderator deciding whether he/she/ze(lol) likes something or not? We definitely should have an option to report that stuff and have some transparent system where we can see what actions were applied to those moderators. Or get a clear response with references to forum rules so that later we can refer to those responses when we report posts/threads moderators choose to ignore.

Gidorick · April 2016

Why would they make the effort @Artemis ? It would just create more work for them. This is ZOS' forum... we need to abide by their rules, which we agreed to when we signed up for this forum.

Is it messed up? Sure... But there ARE other ESO communities we could go to.

NativeJoe · April 2016

If you want freedom of speech you will never find it on a forum for the game like this. Go to reddit

WalkingLegacy · April 2016

@Gidorick

This meme I must know. You've said too much. Curiosity is winning.

MasterSpatula · April 2016

@Gidorick, I just got back after about 11 months away, but in the time I spent here in the first year (and already in the 2 weeks I've been back), I've noticed they're more likely to stomp down on people calling out others for appalling behavior than for the appalling behavior itself.

And whatever you do, don't call a moderator's judgement into question. That's about as useful as questioning a cop's judgement.

Gidorick · April 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In general if a post of yours was removed for any reason, you should receive a PM explaining why. That said, if you have any questions about a moderator's action, feel free to message a staff member/admin privately and we'll be glad to look into it for you.

Do we message that specific member @ZOS_GinaBruno or a different member? Is there a means to escalate matters if we disagree with the reasoning?

In the past, I have asked the ZOS employee who messaged me about a moderator action follow-up questions only to never receive a response.

At that point I usually just give up. Seems easier that way.

daswahnsinn · April 2016

I don't want to stray too far off topic but I don't think using the term 'freedom of speech' can apply to the TOS. Also I'm pretty sure 'freedom of speech' is misunderstood to many as I think the term was meant to be applied to having the freedom to speak out about the US government.

On topic, if you had a post or thread removed you should have gotten a PM, I have had some removed before or need a double thread removed to not clutter or cause the trolls to come out.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

You are correct about freedom of speech. It doesnt apply in a private members only forum like this.

clayandaudrey_ESO · April 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You are correct about freedom of speech. It doesnt apply in a private members only forum like this.

It doesn't apply to a lot of things people throw it at.

WalkingLegacy · April 2016

MasterSpatula wrote: »

@Gidorick, I just got back after about 11 months away, but in the time I spent here in the first year (and already in the 2 weeks I've been back), I've noticed they're more likely to stomp down on people calling out others for appalling behavior than for the appalling behavior itself.

And whatever you do, don't call a moderator's judgement into question. That's about as useful as questioning a cop's judgement.

Well, I can put your conspiracy at rest because my aggressive behavior towards white knights has gotten me many a slaps on the hand from the mods.

Burning_Talons · April 2016

Because it was just a troll post

GreenSoup2HoT · April 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In general if a post of yours was removed for any reason, you should receive a PM explaining why. That said, if you have any questions about a moderator's action, feel free to message a staff member/admin privately and we'll be glad to look into it for you.

Since he did not receive a message after a couple of his posts were removed, i guess that means some of the Zos mod team members are slackin...

However if an entire thread was removed, it makes sense why each individual who posted in it was not notified.

Horker · April 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Im sure if you ask for more detail they will give it to you. Usually you will see a comment someplace but I am sure any moderator can help you.

No ETA - Eric Wrobel

MornaBaine · April 2016

Artemis wrote: »

Today I finally decided to come back to a couple of topics that were interesting enough to follow the discussion. However, I found that some posts were removed, including some of my posts, 2 of which I posted less than an hour before creating this thread. There was absolutely no reference to any forum rules and I don't understand why those posts were removed while some others stayed in the thread, even though they are pretty much the same in terms of "offensiveness" or whatever.

I also found that one topic was removed, and it was an interesting one. Turns out people can create topics praising lgbt quests and npcs, develop entire threads asking to give females special treatment and armors where one of the arguments is that they "can't relate". But for some reason they can't ask for more genders or discuss the issue. I can't even guess what happens if someone creates a topic asking to have a crotch on a male armor (adjustable size of course in character creation) or complaining about lgbt quests/npcs etc.

Is it an official position of ZOS that pluralism is forbidden and people can only voice their opinions if they are in accordance with the common narrative? But then again, why do they care about some people not to be offended, but not about others? How are others worse?

Anyways, is there any way moderators can be more specific about the reasons why posts/threads are removed (while others aren't)? And if they fail to do so - how can we know which moderator exactly did this so we can point at other topics/posts they didn't touch or at the forum rules to show that they didn't do a great job... and how can we complain on them and their abuse of authority sometimes?

You lost me at, "...develop entire threads asking to give females special treatment..." I call BS.

I often do not approve of the things the forum mods do in order to try to kill threads that cast ZOS in a deservedly bad light. But your contention above is simply both unfair and untrue, which taints the rest of your complaint.

Oldmanlawlor · April 2016

It's quite simple. Mods exceed use their power. You can talk about what you like on the forums as long as a mod deems it ok. I very much appreciate GinaB, but the others not so much. Too much gets removed, edited or closed for this forum to be truly 'open'. That being said, every forum has its toxic players and it does need to be monitored.

You guys ever seen the destiny forums? Now there is a toxic community, with the worst mods in existence.

Zaldan · April 2016

MasterSpatula wrote: »

@Gidorick, I just got back after about 11 months away, but in the time I spent here in the first year (and already in the 2 weeks I've been back), I've noticed they're more likely to stomp down on people calling out others for appalling behavior than for the appalling behavior itself.

And whatever you do, don't call a moderator's judgement into question. That's about as useful as questioning a cop's judgement.

I AM THE LAW

Mods don't follow any rules, they are the rules

Inarre · April 2016

I think your post would have been recieved better and in a more serious light if you didnt try to point in the direction of the female armor issue. Unfortunately that definitely made it seem like a troll, even if it wasnt.

Ignoring the fact that in real life we have two genders (like in eso) and anyone inbetween makes it as they choose (like in eso), so you also have the choice to make androgynous looking and sounding people in eso, marry whomever you choose, and wear clothing to match.

But i digress. You received your direction from staff. Inb4 closed for discussing moderator action

jzholloway · April 2016

ESO Forums - the ONLY PC (politically correct) MMO forum on the internet...

If EvE moderated like this... no one would play it lol

BTW - not bashing the moderators, just making a point. Most gaming forums have rules yes, but this one seems more heavily moderated then most (I've been in EvE, WoW, SWTOR, Diablo 2 & 3, Destiny, etc).

FortheloveofKrist · April 2016

Artemis wrote: »

I do. I want everyone to have equal opportunity to express their opinions. What about freedom of speech and equality?

This is not a democracy. It's a private corporation in a profit driven economy. A little different. A lot different.

Artis · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Why would they make the effort @Artemis ? It would just create more work for them. This is ZOS' forum... we need to abide by their rules, which we agreed to when we signed up for this forum.

Is it messed up? Sure... But there ARE other ESO communities we could go to.

That's what I"m asking! I'm okay with abiding their rules. But I need to know the rules and which rules I'm breaking if they remove the comments.

NativeJoe wrote: »

If you want freedom of speech you will never find it on a forum for the game like this. Go to reddit

If there's no freedom, I just want to know what rules do moderators follow. Because they delete some comments and threads, but don't touch others.

MornaBaine wrote: »

You lost me at, "...develop entire threads asking to give females special treatment..." I call BS.

I often do not approve of the things the forum mods do in order to try to kill threads that cast ZOS in a deservedly bad light. But your contention above is simply both unfair and untrue, which taints the rest of your complaint.

I'll miss you very much? No it doesn't taint anything. That thread was exactly the way I described it. Instead of reasonable complaints about armors (and I agree they look ugly and totally support that cause), they transformed a topic into male/female issue where some people can't relate to their characters if they aren't dressed pretty. And they are allowed to express their opinions, but I wasn't allowed to express mine.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In general if a post of yours was removed for any reason, you should receive a PM explaining why. That said, if you have any questions about a moderator's action, feel free to message a staff member/admin privately and we'll be glad to look into it for you.

Thank you, Gina. I haven't received any messages. I only found that it was deleted because I went back to the topic to check how it developed after my post

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

When removing content, we'll either message everyone individually, or post an in-thread notice. The latter typically happens when a large amount of content is removed, in part because such threads usually need a general rules reminder.

If we're removing a large amount of content, and posting an in-thread reminder, chances are many of the deleted posts didn't break the rules. However, replies to problematic content may be removed because they no longer make sense without the original content. In other situations, they're part of a side discussion that is off topic or volatile that we are putting an end to.

Artemis wrote: »

And if it's not so, then how can I complain on a moderator for abuse of authority?

If you have a question about forum moderation, or wish to appeal an action, you can submit a support ticket detailing the issue, and it will be investigated.

I'll point out that these instructions are found in the forum rules, in the section explaining that it isn't appropriate to discuss disciplinary actions on the forums. We're happy to leave this thread open for general questions about forum moderation, but please do not post specific examples.

Thanks for reply. Well, I never got a message and I can't really submit a ticket now, because there's no message to refer to. I also don't understand what exactly was wrong with my comments and one particular thread removed. None of them contained hate speech or broke other rules. They were related to genders, sexual orientation etc (there's a list in rules), but weren't promoting violence or intolerance.

Should we take screenshots of every comment we leave?

Thank you all for replies. Today I learnt I should submit a ticket to support (I thought about it, but I thought they wouldn't be helpful with forum-related issues). And I think moderators should be more transparent and you need to look at what they are doing. I got no PMs or explanation whatsoever. You probably understand that it didn't feel nice. Everything is cool now, though. Have a great day

Kalebron · May 2016

For what purpose would there to have the package size increase on your character or to complain about a quest involving any LGBT situation or other. I believe to complain about it means you are prejudice and expect some sort of privilege. This is a game not the politically charged state controversy over equal rights and such. This is not a good topic and should be deleted. It provokes politics plain and simple.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Is there any way we can complain on moderators and/or get any explanation to their actions?

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