oops double post

I only chose my elf for the stamina regen Passives...and screw the queen I did it as well for the glory of the pact!

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Aldmer Elvish history

Vigarr wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Actually, the reasons of the conflict are unknown.
But your post is a very good illustration how being cruel and bloodthristy conqueror turns out to be a good thing if you like the character.

If he was a bloodthirsty conquerer then he would've done so on arrival. He reacted to something horrible done to his people with horror to those who did it. He's also considered the "first human historian" so he's not simply a savage.

The real despicable ones are the Dwemer who enslaved and blinded the Snow Elves, turning them into the Falmer when they sought refuge underground.

He fled civil war in Atmora, according to some books, so he wasnt in the position to attack Falmers instantly, even if he wanted to.
And then again... Who forced them to seek help from Dwemer? I'm pretty sure that not all Falmer were responsible for the fall of Saarthal, its not like they had a hivemind or something. Of course, revenge is perfectly understandable, but wiping a whole race for crimes of part of it is far from adequate.
Speaking of Ysgramor being the first human historian, "Before the Ages of Man" states that he developed his runic script based on Elven principles. If he had time to learn these principles, his people and elves werent probably hostile to each other from the start.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I agree about that quest. What bothers me is that we are allied to the awful, racist ones when it comes to the Dunmer in the Pact. I really wish we could just set the Khajiit free and kill the slave masters.

For the other Elves, at lest the ones who are awful and/or racist are usually the enemy.

And the humans are just as racist and murderous (and often genocidal), something that people often forget. I guess because we are humans, so we tend to forgive horrible actions that other humans commit? Men gets to Tamriel. Men find Elves already living there. Men wipe Elves out and claim the Elves are the evil ones. Sounds familiar? Yeah...

This isn't what happened. Men came to Tamriel from the Elder wood in the north, and from Yokuda. On the Isle of Yokuda there were some particularly wicked elves known as the Left-Handed elves. When Yokuda sunk from that battle the Yokudans sailed to what is now Hammerfell and soon discovered all manner of elf and goblinkind. The elves there were the malacath-serving Orcs and some monstrous daedra-worshipping necromantic Ayleids. Redguards got really angry to see their fathers raised against them, and the Ra gada wave began. Considering the importance Redguard/Yokudan society places upon the far shores/repose of the dead this was the biggest affront of all. The Night of Tears was another similar watershed moment for the men of Saarthal/Elder Wood. Meanwhile, over the millennia ayleid lords worshipping Daedra (like Molag Bal, as well as Chimer and other groups) enslaved humanity, treating them as playthings, toys and experiments. I'm sorry but the history of elvenkind earned them their loss of Cyrodiil. I suspect this is where many of the Altmer/Bosmer come in, who still feel superior to Men, but also held to a greater code of conduct.

Just a consideration. Have you noticed Mer necromancers are far more commonly Elves than any other race in the series? That has been my observation at any regard. I think the issue more stems from elven superiority in magic, and because of it many more Elves go down these diabolical paths instead of martial/political paths of power. Just my thought on the whole thing.

I don't see how it is relevant that the Elves in Hammerfell raised the dead against Redguards, honestly. They lived there, with their "monstrous" ways before the Redguards arrived. You can argue that the Redguards had nowhere to go because Yokuda sunk, and that's fine, but they still arrived in a land previously occupied by elves and wiped them out, conquering that land for themselves with the premise that those elves, who were there before, were evil. This is what I was talking about, btw.

Orsimer were treated as a plague by the Redguards and Bretons for generations. They made an habit of culling Orsimer population and destroying Orsinium over the years.

Don't forget that the "good Ayleid kings" (the ones who actually helped the slaves against their masters) were hunt down after the humans took Cyrodiil. The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Abeille wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I agree about that quest. What bothers me is that we are allied to the awful, racist ones when it comes to the Dunmer in the Pact. I really wish we could just set the Khajiit free and kill the slave masters.

For the other Elves, at lest the ones who are awful and/or racist are usually the enemy.

And the humans are just as racist and murderous (and often genocidal), something that people often forget. I guess because we are humans, so we tend to forgive horrible actions that other humans commit? Men gets to Tamriel. Men find Elves already living there. Men wipe Elves out and claim the Elves are the evil ones. Sounds familiar? Yeah...

This isn't what happened. Men came to Tamriel from the Elder wood in the north, and from Yokuda. On the Isle of Yokuda there were some particularly wicked elves known as the Left-Handed elves. When Yokuda sunk from that battle the Yokudans sailed to what is now Hammerfell and soon discovered all manner of elf and goblinkind. The elves there were the malacath-serving Orcs and some monstrous daedra-worshipping necromantic Ayleids. Redguards got really angry to see their fathers raised against them, and the Ra gada wave began. Considering the importance Redguard/Yokudan society places upon the far shores/repose of the dead this was the biggest affront of all. The Night of Tears was another similar watershed moment for the men of Saarthal/Elder Wood. Meanwhile, over the millennia ayleid lords worshipping Daedra (like Molag Bal, as well as Chimer and other groups) enslaved humanity, treating them as playthings, toys and experiments. I'm sorry but the history of elvenkind earned them their loss of Cyrodiil. I suspect this is where many of the Altmer/Bosmer come in, who still feel superior to Men, but also held to a greater code of conduct.

Just a consideration. Have you noticed Mer necromancers are far more commonly Elves than any other race in the series? That has been my observation at any regard. I think the issue more stems from elven superiority in magic, and because of it many more Elves go down these diabolical paths instead of martial/political paths of power. Just my thought on the whole thing.

I don't see how it is relevant that the Elves in Hammerfell raised the dead against Redguards, honestly. They lived there, with their "monstrous" ways before the Redguards arrived. You can argue that the Redguards had nowhere to go because Yokuda sunk, and that's fine, but they still arrived in a land previously occupied by elves and wiped them out, conquering that land for themselves with the premise that those elves, who were there before, were evil. This is what I was talking about, btw.

Orsimer were treated as a plague by the Redguards and Bretons for generations. They made an habit of culling Orsimer population and destroying Orsinium over the years.

Don't forget that the "good Ayleid kings" (the ones who actually helped the slaves against their masters) were hunt down after the humans took Cyrodiil. The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Well, it reminds me of real world history, particulalry colonization of certain countries... And continents. Ofc, some ppl can say that natives of these continents were "diabolical" and worshipped Satan, but that doesnt make murder and conquest more benevolent.

tinythinker wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Good insight.

I would love TES VI to be in the Dominion, considering how we learn in TES V that there is a younger generation of Altmer that is fighting against the Thalmor (and being hunt down for it even if they leave Alinor). But this is the kind of side that I would like to take: Not "join the Dominion or wipe elves out", but "Join the Thalmor-Dominion or take it back from the Thalmor". The Thalmor of the 4th Era are pretty much a military dictatorship, after all, and they are attacking their own people.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Good insight.

I would love TES VI to be in the Dominion, considering how we learn in TES V that there is a younger generation of Altmer that is fighting against the Thalmor (and being hunt down for it even if they leave Alinor). But this is the kind of side that I would like to take: Not "join the Dominion or wipe elves out", but "Join the Thalmor-Dominion or take it back from the Thalmor". The Thalmor of the 4th Era are pretty much a military dictatorship, after all, and they are attacking their own people.

That's a very interesting idea.
And its true... I think there was a bosmer npc in Skyrim whose family was murdered by Thalmor. So its not that nice even to elves.

If you have TES V installed (I imagine that most of us have xD), look for an Altmer in Riften that is part of the Imperial army. He talks about how he tried to escape Alinor with many other Altmer, and how the Thalmor attacked them and killed everyone

Edit: Also, I hate how they changed the Summerset Isles name to "Alinor". If we get to take it back, I hope we can change it back.

Everyone knows khajiit are the master race. We were here in tamriel before all of you immigrants (argonian bros aside).

BTW, that's one good lookin khajiit you got there, OP.

Abeille wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Good insight.

I would love TES VI to be in the Dominion, considering how we learn in TES V that there is a younger generation of Altmer that is fighting against the Thalmor (and being hunt down for it even if they leave Alinor). But this is the kind of side that I would like to take: Not "join the Dominion or wipe elves out", but "Join the Thalmor-Dominion or take it back from the Thalmor". The Thalmor of the 4th Era are pretty much a military dictatorship, after all, and they are attacking their own people.

I think this would be an interesting game as well, particularly to see the Crystal Tower, possibly the psijic island, etc. I'm not Anti-Elf per se, but I do think they've probably had the most villainous groups in general in the series. Elves are extreme in nature, I think that is their nature. The good/noble ones are excellent folks (Like Ayrenn), the bad ones are exemplified by the likes of Mannimarco. That's my only point.

If you look at the history of it all I do think the man/mer conflict is rooted in the Auri-El/Shor conflict, much of which is likely lost to time. I was making the point that Elves were not such a bright and wonderful people all the time, as evidenced by their daedric kingdoms. The Chimer/Dunmer still continue much of those old and dark practices in the pact. The point about the Ra Gada I was making was that it wasn't as simple as the Yokudans wiping Elves out. The Yokudans arrived after a great battle that lost them their homeland with vile elves, only to come upon piles of Ayleid necromancers in the new. They were decidedly very unhappy with those things, but eventually stayed with their new homeland, and were for the most part peaceful. The Orcs as well faced a lot of violence (by all peoples) because their philosophy and way of life is hostile to all peoples (man/mer/beastfolk) alike. The only reason Orcs have been poor conquerors is their fractious tribalism and the whole polygamous sister-wife thing. The reason the Bretons and Redguards have seen the Orcs as a blight (justly) is those Orcs raided their farming villages (Just like Reachmen, who themselves are daedra sorts, including Malcath) and they fought back. I like Orcs, I like elves, I think they add a lot to the series, but I find the human response more easy to empathize with. Elves have a history in the series of some very dark empires. My point in that regard was the innate magic of the Elves is the root of the problem - its just too easy for them to do really foul things. Think of it like technology today. Chemical/Biological/Nuclear warfare make it far too easy to do far too much evil in our modern day.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The problem is that when humans have problems with elves, they go all genocidal on them. Even on the ones that did not harm them, just for being part of that race that wronged them.

Good insight.

I would love TES VI to be in the Dominion, considering how we learn in TES V that there is a younger generation of Altmer that is fighting against the Thalmor (and being hunt down for it even if they leave Alinor). But this is the kind of side that I would like to take: Not "join the Dominion or wipe elves out", but "Join the Thalmor-Dominion or take it back from the Thalmor". The Thalmor of the 4th Era are pretty much a military dictatorship, after all, and they are attacking their own people.

I think this would be an interesting game as well, particularly to see the Crystal Tower, possibly the psijic island, etc. I'm not Anti-Elf per se, but I do think they've probably had the most villainous groups in general in the series. Elves are extreme in nature, I think that is their nature. The good/noble ones are excellent folks (Like Ayrenn), the bad ones are exemplified by the likes of Mannimarco. That's my only point.

I think a problem that we had in the series is that most of the single player games were made in regions (and consequently from the POV) of people who are historically enemies of the Altmer or that just hate elves in general. We have a lot of anti-elf propaganda, and we also get in contact with many npcs that hate elves in general, so I took all we "learn" in previous game with a grain of salt. I am well aware of everything the elves had done, but I'm also aware that humans also did a bunch of awful things and that they too are very racist (and they are very proud of these awful things they did).

About elves being extreme, I don't think it is part of their nature being extreme when it comes to good and evil, or we would only have super good or super evil elven characters, and that's not how it happens. But talking about the Altmer, they ARE extreme when it comes to perfection: We meet many Altmer who are farmers, stable masters, artists and the like, but they see it like everything worth doing by an Altmer is worth doing perfectly, and they often put all of themselves on their craft. And then, when their craft is Necromancy, we can end up with people like Mannimarco or people like Vastarie (the "good" necromancer).

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

*Hsst, @Ch4mpTW, Orcs are also mer. Trinimac was/is a god of the mer, and still has followers among the Altmer.*

Even Breton are mer (half breeds)

But... But khajiits are the mers , too!