How to play as Magika nightblade?

aLi3nZ · March 2016

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Strider_Roshin · March 2016

It's pretty difficult playing as a magicka Nightblade, but thankfully I was able to beat normal maelstrom arena with mine at level 22. It took patience and strategy but I got it done.

https://youtu.be/axsgf6Ei_lU

Walties99 · March 2016

For pve, a good rotation is to keep siphoning attacks on your backbar, and weave medium fire staff attacks with your funnel health. Proc your merciless resolve and after 4 medium and funnel health rotations Fire your bow and by then the target should be in execute for impale. If you have a Molag Kena set this rotation works well because you get the extra damage when you fire the bow if you use 2 light attacks but don't get charged the extra magicka cost. Remember to keep entropy up for the 20% spell damage, and have debilitate somewhere on your bar for the DoT. With the right gear your spectral now and executes can hit for 26-32,000 on a crit. I use Julianos, willpower, and Kena for those numbers. Some people use twice
Born with the thief and shadow but I've never run the math to be honest. Magicka NB is my favorite class to play because of good sustainability and potential for big hits.

mr_wazzabi · March 2016

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Level dw, destro staff and resto staff to 50

Max out every single nb skill except for agony

For resto staff, make sure you get healing ward.

Max out mages guild for meteor and inner light.

Play the hell out of pvp to unlock magicka det and morph it to proxy det

For pvp here's my dw/resto setup

Dw: concealed weapon, shadowy disguise, sap essense, lotus fan, mass hysteria. Ult: soul harvest

Resto: proxy det, shadow inage, healing ward, crippling grasp, double take. Ult: meteor(both morphs good)

For pve, it's the same, but i swap impale for mass hysteria and siphoning inner light for shadowy disguise and shadow image, as fear and cloak aren't needed in dungeons. Neither is the shadow. I also swap siphoning attacks for double take.

For pvp destro/resto
Destro: strife(both morphs good), shadowy disguise, concealed weapon, crippling grasp, merciless resolve. Ult: soul harvest

Resto: sap essense, mass hysteria, healing ward, double take, impale/piercing mark. Ult: meteor

Autolycus · March 2016

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Max out every single nb skill except for agony

Agony is actually incredibly useful in pvp. Since the TG update, the DoT from Agony applies regardless of whether or not the target is susceptible to the stun component. For the vast majority of scenarios, the stun component is a guaranteed interrupt + forces the target to break free, wasting their valuable stamina (try it on a sorc, they hate it).

I'd recommend a completely different setup, especially considering the OP is inquiring from a PvE perspective here. You don't need proxy det for pve. It's fun, but you can do better without it in a lot of scenarios. Trash dies so quickly when you're geared that having the burst capabilites of proxy is just unnecessary, and in many cases the trash is dead before it even goes off. Unlike proxy det, wall of elements and twisting path can be used in a single target rotation, upping your dps by a substantial amount. Again, speaking from a PvE perspective here. It's simply less practical in this setting (don't get me wrong, I love me some proxy det, there are just better options in pve).

OP, I'd recommend going destro staff and forego DW altogether. The DW spell damage meta applies predominantly to Sorcs and Temps. Although in theory it is 100% applicable to NBs, in practice being DW forces you into melee range, or forces you to forego one of our hardest-hitting abilities, being Merciless Resolve. Templars and Sorcs don't rely on their light attacks to proc their skills, unlike NBs, who have two abilities that are highly contingent upon light attack weaving. Destro weaving is a lot easier than DW weaving is, and dpsing from range pretty much guarantees that you get your assassin's will procs as quickly and reliably as possible. Some of my AW procs crit for over 50k, and I've seen one as high as 62k. These things pop up every few seconds, and if you're DW you give up a lot of procs just by being melee. I know it sounds contradictory, but you'll understand and thank me when you start doing bosses like Molag Kena, where being melee is incredibly punishing from a dps perspective.

While leveling, you don't have to use two destro staves, but I'm recommending a rotation that does use two. Do a destro / resto, or a destro / DW if you wish. For a long time I ran resto on my off-bar, and used it for virtually everything until I got the gear I wanted. For a single target rotation, here is what I recommend:

Bar 1 - Inner Light, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, Impale, Merciless Resolve (Ice Comet)
Bar 2 - Inner Light, Sap Essence, Wall of Elements, Twisting Path, Siphoning Attacks (Soul Harvest)

Having Soul Harvest on your off-bar (also you AoE bar) means that you'll regenerate ultimate quickly from clearing trash, and you passively benefit from it as well, giving you 10% crit damage for having it slotted and a slightly higher crit chance.

For trash pulls, just keep your Merciless Resolve active, lay down WoE and Twisting Path and Sap everything to death. For single-target fights, your DoTs are WoE, TP, and Cripple. Keep these active for as close to 100% of the fight as possible. Otherwise, you want to light attack weave Swallow Soul. Whenever your Assassin's Will procs, cast Inner Light to empower it, then let it rip. You'll need to reapply Merciless Resolve after every Assassin's Will.

For added effect, you can sneak a Soul Harvest into your rotation to boost the damage of your Assassin's Will. To do this, simply wait until you ready to refresh your WoE and your TP (this way you don't waste time bar-swapping just to boost one skill, rather you bar-swap when it's appropriate, and take advantage of the convenience of already being on that bar). After you reapply your DoTs, hit your target with Soul Harvest, then empower an Assassin's Will.

With a Resto on the your off-bar, replace WoE with something like Healing Ward or Force Siphon, heck even Mutagen. You don't really need one for group content tbh, but for solo content like Maelstrom, I use a resto off-bar and the only resto skill I have is Healing Ward.

Caza99 · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Max out every single nb skill except for agony

Agony is actually incredibly useful in pvp. Since the TG update, the DoT from Agony applies regardless of whether or not the target is susceptible to the stun component. For the vast majority of scenarios, the stun component is a guaranteed interrupt + forces the target to break free, wasting their valuable stamina (try it on a sorc, they hate it).

I'd recommend a completely different setup, especially considering the OP is inquiring from a PvE perspective here. You don't need proxy det for pve. It's fun, but you can do better without it in a lot of scenarios. Trash dies so quickly when you're geared that having the burst capabilites of proxy is just unnecessary, and in many cases the trash is dead before it even goes off. Unlike proxy det, wall of elements and twisting path can be used in a single target rotation, upping your dps by a substantial amount. Again, speaking from a PvE perspective here. It's simply less practical in this setting (don't get me wrong, I love me some proxy det, there are just better options in pve).

OP, I'd recommend going destro staff and forego DW altogether. The DW spell damage meta applies predominantly to Sorcs and Temps. Although in theory it is 100% applicable to NBs, in practice being DW forces you into melee range, or forces you to forego one of our hardest-hitting abilities, being Merciless Resolve. Templars and Sorcs don't rely on their light attacks to proc their skills, unlike NBs, who have two abilities that are highly contingent upon light attack weaving. Destro weaving is a lot easier than DW weaving is, and dpsing from range pretty much guarantees that you get your assassin's will procs as quickly and reliably as possible. Some of my AW procs crit for over 50k, and I've seen one as high as 62k. These things pop up every few seconds, and if you're DW you give up a lot of procs just by being melee. I know it sounds contradictory, but you'll understand and thank me when you start doing bosses like Molag Kena, where being melee is incredibly punishing from a dps perspective.

While leveling, you don't have to use two destro staves, but I'm recommending a rotation that does use two. Do a destro / resto, or a destro / DW if you wish. For a long time I ran resto on my off-bar, and used it for virtually everything until I got the gear I wanted. For a single target rotation, here is what I recommend:

Bar 1 - Inner Light, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, Impale, Merciless Resolve (Ice Comet)
Bar 2 - Inner Light, Sap Essence, Wall of Elements, Twisting Path, Siphoning Attacks (Soul Harvest)

Having Soul Harvest on your off-bar (also you AoE bar) means that you'll regenerate ultimate quickly from clearing trash, and you passively benefit from it as well, giving you 10% crit damage for having it slotted and a slightly higher crit chance.

For trash pulls, just keep your Merciless Resolve active, lay down WoE and Twisting Path and Sap everything to death. For single-target fights, your DoTs are WoE, TP, and Cripple. Keep these active for as close to 100% of the fight as possible. Otherwise, you want to light attack weave Swallow Soul. Whenever your Assassin's Will procs, cast Inner Light to empower it, then let it rip. You'll need to reapply Merciless Resolve after every Assassin's Will.

For added effect, you can sneak a Soul Harvest into your rotation to boost the damage of your Assassin's Will. To do this, simply wait until you ready to refresh your WoE and your TP (this way you don't waste time bar-swapping just to boost one skill, rather you bar-swap when it's appropriate, and take advantage of the convenience of already being on that bar). After you reapply your DoTs, hit your target with Soul Harvest, then empower an Assassin's Will.

With a Resto on the your off-bar, replace WoE with something like Healing Ward or Force Siphon, heck even Mutagen. You don't really need one for group content tbh, but for solo content like Maelstrom, I use a resto off-bar and the only resto skill I have is Healing Ward.

It might be a semi-decent DoT in this patch, but Agony is still a barely useful skill in terms of CC. It is inferior to CCs like Flame Reach, Fear and the Concealed Weapon stun. And the DoT component is not worth a skill slot imo when other, far more useful DoTs like Crippling Grasp are available. I agree, it can be good against sorcs, but that is very situational and not worth a slot on my bar. Besides, there are other ways to beat sorcs and I do fine against them without it.

You definitely don't need Proxy Det in PvE but it does help a lot. The burst is insane.

A lot of magicka Nightblade, in PvE dungeons/group content, will use both destro and dual wield. The dual wield bar being mostly AoE, buffs and execute and destro being main single target dps. For example:
Destro: Crippling Grasp, Funnel Health, Merciless Resolve, Structured Entropy, Inner Light, Meteor
Dual Wield: Sap Essence, Impale, Proximity Detonation, Siphoning Attacks, Inner Light, Soul Harvest
The increased Spell Damage on dual wield bar allows you to clear trash faster, provide off heals and quickly gain ultimate with Siphoning passives and the Soul Harvest ultimate passive. Proximity detonation is insane burst damage in trash pulls as well.
Main single target rotation is Resolve > Entropy > Cripple > Funnel and Light attack weaving. Use Assassin's Will procs and reapply after.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Destro/DW is better than Destro/Destro in all cases, it's just a very viable option and in some cases a better one. imo they are both very good and outshine each other in different situations, just down to personal preferance.

Autolycus · March 2016

Caza99 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Max out every single nb skill except for agony

Agony is actually incredibly useful in pvp. Since the TG update, the DoT from Agony applies regardless of whether or not the target is susceptible to the stun component. For the vast majority of scenarios, the stun component is a guaranteed interrupt + forces the target to break free, wasting their valuable stamina (try it on a sorc, they hate it).

I'd recommend a completely different setup, especially considering the OP is inquiring from a PvE perspective here. You don't need proxy det for pve. It's fun, but you can do better without it in a lot of scenarios. Trash dies so quickly when you're geared that having the burst capabilites of proxy is just unnecessary, and in many cases the trash is dead before it even goes off. Unlike proxy det, wall of elements and twisting path can be used in a single target rotation, upping your dps by a substantial amount. Again, speaking from a PvE perspective here. It's simply less practical in this setting (don't get me wrong, I love me some proxy det, there are just better options in pve).

OP, I'd recommend going destro staff and forego DW altogether. The DW spell damage meta applies predominantly to Sorcs and Temps. Although in theory it is 100% applicable to NBs, in practice being DW forces you into melee range, or forces you to forego one of our hardest-hitting abilities, being Merciless Resolve. Templars and Sorcs don't rely on their light attacks to proc their skills, unlike NBs, who have two abilities that are highly contingent upon light attack weaving. Destro weaving is a lot easier than DW weaving is, and dpsing from range pretty much guarantees that you get your assassin's will procs as quickly and reliably as possible. Some of my AW procs crit for over 50k, and I've seen one as high as 62k. These things pop up every few seconds, and if you're DW you give up a lot of procs just by being melee. I know it sounds contradictory, but you'll understand and thank me when you start doing bosses like Molag Kena, where being melee is incredibly punishing from a dps perspective.

While leveling, you don't have to use two destro staves, but I'm recommending a rotation that does use two. Do a destro / resto, or a destro / DW if you wish. For a long time I ran resto on my off-bar, and used it for virtually everything until I got the gear I wanted. For a single target rotation, here is what I recommend:

Bar 1 - Inner Light, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, Impale, Merciless Resolve (Ice Comet)
Bar 2 - Inner Light, Sap Essence, Wall of Elements, Twisting Path, Siphoning Attacks (Soul Harvest)

Having Soul Harvest on your off-bar (also you AoE bar) means that you'll regenerate ultimate quickly from clearing trash, and you passively benefit from it as well, giving you 10% crit damage for having it slotted and a slightly higher crit chance.

For trash pulls, just keep your Merciless Resolve active, lay down WoE and Twisting Path and Sap everything to death. For single-target fights, your DoTs are WoE, TP, and Cripple. Keep these active for as close to 100% of the fight as possible. Otherwise, you want to light attack weave Swallow Soul. Whenever your Assassin's Will procs, cast Inner Light to empower it, then let it rip. You'll need to reapply Merciless Resolve after every Assassin's Will.

For added effect, you can sneak a Soul Harvest into your rotation to boost the damage of your Assassin's Will. To do this, simply wait until you ready to refresh your WoE and your TP (this way you don't waste time bar-swapping just to boost one skill, rather you bar-swap when it's appropriate, and take advantage of the convenience of already being on that bar). After you reapply your DoTs, hit your target with Soul Harvest, then empower an Assassin's Will.

With a Resto on the your off-bar, replace WoE with something like Healing Ward or Force Siphon, heck even Mutagen. You don't really need one for group content tbh, but for solo content like Maelstrom, I use a resto off-bar and the only resto skill I have is Healing Ward.

It might be a semi-decent DoT in this patch, but Agony is still a barely useful skill in terms of CC. It is inferior to CCs like Flame Reach, Fear and the Concealed Weapon stun. And the DoT component is not worth a skill slot imo when other, far more useful DoTs like Crippling Grasp are available. I agree, it can be good against sorcs, but that is very situational and not worth a slot on my bar. Besides, there are other ways to beat sorcs and I do fine against them without it.

You definitely don't need Proxy Det in PvE but it does help a lot. I love my 22k+ single target proxys in vMA.

A lot of magicka Nightblade, in PvE dungeons/group content, will use both destro and dual wield. The dual wield bar being mostly AoE, buffs and execute and destro being main single target dps. For example:
Destro: Crippling Grasp, Funnel Health, Merciless Resolve, Structured Entropy, Inner Light, Meteor
Dual Wield: Sap Essence, Impale, Proximity Detonation, Siphoning Attacks, Inner Light, Soul Harvest
The increased Spell Damage on dual wield bar allows you to clear trash faster, provide off heals and quickly gain ultimate with Siphoning passives and the Soul Harvest ultimate passive. Proximity detonation is insane burst damage in trash pulls as well.
Main single target rotation is Resolve > Entropy > Cripple > Funnel and Light attack weaving. Use Assassin's Will procs and reapply after.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Destro/DW is better than Destro/Destro in all cases, it's just a very viable option and in some cases a better one. imo they are both very good and outshine each other in different situations, just down to personal preferance.

I certainly did not mean to imply that DW is ineffective, if that's how it came off. The main reason I use destro/destro is because I have 2 vMA destro staves. My "bar 1" lineup can just as easily be used with DW instead of a destro. If you like DW more, have at it!

As for Agony, I think you might be surprised at how useful it actually is in pvp. I don't just use it for sorcs, I use it on everyone. I also use it in conjunction with cripple, not as a substitute. Agony > Cripple > Lotus Fan > Concealed Weapon is a very powerful combo; it applies 3 dots, an initial immobilize followed by a snare, procs major/ward resolve, and sets you up for strong melee instant cast attacks. The CC component is just the cherry on top; It's not any less useful than petrify or rune prison, but with all the damage that neither of those have. Fully buffed, my cripple is a 14k dot (pve, so ~7k pvp) and my Prolonged Suffering (aka agony) is almost a 10k dot (pve, so ~5k pvp).

Agony wins me a lot of fights; I just ran into a DK vamp tank in cyrodiil, and he used the usual talons + bat swarm + burning embers + whip combo on me. I hit him with agony, forced him into a CC, which bought me time to cast a healing ward, and he died from the agony dot (not from the dot alone of course, but I wasn't exactly on the offensive, and still won). Agony is unblockable, no matter the scenario. CC immunity is the only thing that can prevent it, and it does not prevent the dot. Basically, in 1v1 and 1vX scenarios, Agony is incredibly useful. For zergs, well... it's not. Even the AoE damage morph of Agony is lackluster compared to many other skills (like proxy det).

Proxy det is, if anything, a super fun skill to have. I didn't realize you were referring to settings like vMA, where proxy det is certainly more useful. I meant more of a dungeon or trial setting (except MoL), where most things die too quickly for your det to even pop.

Xvorg · March 2016

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

A good option too is to go sap tank with S/B and AoE, permablocking as much as you can (you can complement this with destro for distance attack in a second bar)

Anyway, for single target in dungeons you can try a flame staff with

inner light (more magicka and spell crit)
Cloak/double take/siph attacks
Swallow soul
Impale/structured entropy
merc ressolve

U Meteor/Soul assault (if you don't have mages guild at level 10)

The idea is to go full ranged. Full heavy attacks with flame staff do a lot of dmg and weaved while using swallow sould can help you to build ass will. Entropy to increase your spell dmg and get empower if you are levl 10 in the mages guild (entropy before ass will an exceleent combo). Impale is pretty useful against bosses under 25% healthh. Each impale goes over 15K and can be weaved too

code65536 · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

I certainly did not mean to imply that DW is ineffective, if that's how it came off. The main reason I use destro/destro is because I have 2 vMA destro staves. My "bar 1" lineup can just as easily be used with DW instead of a destro. If you like DW more, have at it! However, the added SD from a vMA destro outweighs the extra SD for having DW, at least last I checked. If I remember correctly, you get something like 139 more SD with a vMA destro.

No, you still get more SD with DW. Maelstrom destro provides 189 bonus SD. DW provides a bonus from DW itself, as well as the 2p Torug bonus. Most setups are 5p Juli/TBS/Scathing, 2p Monster, 3p Willpower, and the weapons are independent, in which case, you will likely be running 2p Torug swords.

I'm not currently logged into my NB, but she has a sharpened Maelstrom destro on the front bar and Torug DW on the back bar, and the back bar definitely has more SD than the front bar.

In addition to the higher SD, your DW will get the 5% damage bonus from Twin Blade and Blunt (it's a bonus to overall damage, not one to SD/WD, so it's reflected in the ability tooltips, but not on the character sheet), and if you're using nirnhoned swords, you'll get extra spell pen and spell resist compared to a sharpened Maelstrom destro.

The back bar just contains all the stuff that you wouldn't weave anyway. Impale (the extra DW damage is especially nice for that), proxy, sap, and SA. Dual-destro makes a lot of sense for a mag DK (mine uses dual-destro), but for a magblade, I see no reason (aside from cost) to not go DW on the back.

Autolycus wrote: »

I meant more of a dungeon or trial setting (except MoL), where most things die too quickly for your det to even pop.

I prime proxy before a pull so that it goes off shortly after the engagement starts. Yes, for most fights, if I prime it after it starts, things are dead before it goes boom. But in places like vMoL (particularly the second boss and the crazy amount of adds the spawn as that fight goes on) or vICP/vWGT where the mobs are dense and quite durable, you really do want proxy. Things in vMA die too fast, though, for proxy to be that useful.

Caza99 wrote: »

It might be a semi-decent DoT in this patch, but Agony is still a barely useful skill in terms of CC.

The nice thing about Agony is that they must break out of it. Compared to the other CCs that you mentioned, the duration is just way too long for them to wait it out if they're low on stam. And it can be pretty useful in solo PvE (vMA, mostly), to take something out of the picture for a long time while you deal with something else. It was useful when I was trying to get my first vMA clear; e.g., I'd disable the summoner in stage 9 so that I wouldn't have to worry about them as I took care of other threats. (Though these days, I no longer use it.)

Autolycus · March 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I certainly did not mean to imply that DW is ineffective, if that's how it came off. The main reason I use destro/destro is because I have 2 vMA destro staves. My "bar 1" lineup can just as easily be used with DW instead of a destro. If you like DW more, have at it! However, the added SD from a vMA destro outweighs the extra SD for having DW, at least last I checked. If I remember correctly, you get something like 139 more SD with a vMA destro.

No, you still get more SD with DW. Maelstrom destro provides 189 bonus SD. DW provides a bonus from DW itself, as well as the 2p Torug bonus. Most setups are 5p Juli/TBS/Scathing, 2p Monster, 3p Willpower, and the weapons are independent, in which case, you will likely be running 2p Torug swords.

I'm not currently logged into my NB, but she has a sharpened Maelstrom destro on the front bar and Torug DW on the back bar, and the back bar definitely has more SD than the front bar.

In addition to the higher SD, your DW will get the 5% damage bonus from Twin Blade and Blunt (it's a bonus to overall damage, not one to SD/WD, so it's reflected in the ability tooltips, but not on the character sheet), and if you're using nirnhoned swords, you'll get extra spell pen and spell resist compared to a sharpened Maelstrom destro.

The back bar just contains all the stuff that you wouldn't weave anyway. Impale (the extra DW damage is especially nice for that), proxy, sap, and SA. Dual-destro makes a lot of sense for a mag DK (mine uses dual-destro), but for a magblade, I see no reason (aside from cost) to not go DW on the back.

Oops, you're totally right and I'm not sure what I was thinking. I think I was delusional because I was posting early in the morning. DW is higher SD, especially if it adds a 2pc Torug's to the set. I edited my last post so as not to mislead anyone else.

Thanks for correcting me, we can't have people reading nonsense like that.

I'm curious, how do you set up your bar? With Impale on your back bar, do you put WoE on your front bar?

code65536 · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

I'm curious, how do you set up your bar? With Impale on your back bar, do you put WoE on your front bar?

Yep.

Funnel, Cripple, Wall, Merciless on the front. Impale, Sap, SA, and flexible (often prox det) on the back.

Caza99 · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I certainly did not mean to imply that DW is ineffective, if that's how it came off. The main reason I use destro/destro is because I have 2 vMA destro staves. My "bar 1" lineup can just as easily be used with DW instead of a destro. If you like DW more, have at it! However, the added SD from a vMA destro outweighs the extra SD for having DW, at least last I checked. If I remember correctly, you get something like 139 more SD with a vMA destro.

No, you still get more SD with DW. Maelstrom destro provides 189 bonus SD. DW provides a bonus from DW itself, as well as the 2p Torug bonus. Most setups are 5p Juli/TBS/Scathing, 2p Monster, 3p Willpower, and the weapons are independent, in which case, you will likely be running 2p Torug swords.

I'm not currently logged into my NB, but she has a sharpened Maelstrom destro on the front bar and Torug DW on the back bar, and the back bar definitely has more SD than the front bar.

In addition to the higher SD, your DW will get the 5% damage bonus from Twin Blade and Blunt (it's a bonus to overall damage, not one to SD/WD, so it's reflected in the ability tooltips, but not on the character sheet), and if you're using nirnhoned swords, you'll get extra spell pen and spell resist compared to a sharpened Maelstrom destro.

The back bar just contains all the stuff that you wouldn't weave anyway. Impale (the extra DW damage is especially nice for that), proxy, sap, and SA. Dual-destro makes a lot of sense for a mag DK (mine uses dual-destro), but for a magblade, I see no reason (aside from cost) to not go DW on the back.

Autolycus wrote: »

I meant more of a dungeon or trial setting (except MoL), where most things die too quickly for your det to even pop.

I prime proxy before a pull so that it goes off shortly after the engagement starts. Yes, for most fights, if I prime it after it starts, things are dead before it goes boom. But in places like vMoL (particularly the second boss and the crazy amount of adds the spawn as that fight goes on) or vICP/vWGT where the mobs are dense and quite durable, you really do want proxy. Things in vMA die too fast, though, for proxy to be that useful.

Caza99 wrote: »

It might be a semi-decent DoT in this patch, but Agony is still a barely useful skill in terms of CC.

The nice thing about Agony is that they must break out of it. Compared to the other CCs that you mentioned, the duration is just way too long for them to wait it out if they're low on stam. And it can be pretty useful in solo PvE (vMA, mostly), to take something out of the picture for a long time while you deal with something else. It was useful when I was trying to get my first vMA clear; e.g., I'd disable the summoner in stage 9 so that I wouldn't have to worry about them as I took care of other threats. (Though these days, I no longer use it.)

Agony can be useful in that way for a PVE situation, but the fact that damage breaks the CC means that in PvP, it is an ineffective CC when compared to the other ones a night blade has at its disposal.

Autolycus wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

What kind of skills you use for pvp and pve dungeons? Is single target dps better than a sourcer with the same gear?

I am v6 and can pve alright. I have fear and cloak+ concealed weapon for stun and using duel weild / restro atm.

Haven't really figured a good single target dps rotation as yet. Any advice for me?

Max out every single nb skill except for agony

Agony is actually incredibly useful in pvp. Since the TG update, the DoT from Agony applies regardless of whether or not the target is susceptible to the stun component. For the vast majority of scenarios, the stun component is a guaranteed interrupt + forces the target to break free, wasting their valuable stamina (try it on a sorc, they hate it).

I'd recommend a completely different setup, especially considering the OP is inquiring from a PvE perspective here. You don't need proxy det for pve. It's fun, but you can do better without it in a lot of scenarios. Trash dies so quickly when you're geared that having the burst capabilites of proxy is just unnecessary, and in many cases the trash is dead before it even goes off. Unlike proxy det, wall of elements and twisting path can be used in a single target rotation, upping your dps by a substantial amount. Again, speaking from a PvE perspective here. It's simply less practical in this setting (don't get me wrong, I love me some proxy det, there are just better options in pve).

OP, I'd recommend going destro staff and forego DW altogether. The DW spell damage meta applies predominantly to Sorcs and Temps. Although in theory it is 100% applicable to NBs, in practice being DW forces you into melee range, or forces you to forego one of our hardest-hitting abilities, being Merciless Resolve. Templars and Sorcs don't rely on their light attacks to proc their skills, unlike NBs, who have two abilities that are highly contingent upon light attack weaving. Destro weaving is a lot easier than DW weaving is, and dpsing from range pretty much guarantees that you get your assassin's will procs as quickly and reliably as possible. Some of my AW procs crit for over 50k, and I've seen one as high as 62k. These things pop up every few seconds, and if you're DW you give up a lot of procs just by being melee. I know it sounds contradictory, but you'll understand and thank me when you start doing bosses like Molag Kena, where being melee is incredibly punishing from a dps perspective.

While leveling, you don't have to use two destro staves, but I'm recommending a rotation that does use two. Do a destro / resto, or a destro / DW if you wish. For a long time I ran resto on my off-bar, and used it for virtually everything until I got the gear I wanted. For a single target rotation, here is what I recommend:

Bar 1 - Inner Light, Crippling Grasp, Swallow Soul, Impale, Merciless Resolve (Ice Comet)
Bar 2 - Inner Light, Sap Essence, Wall of Elements, Twisting Path, Siphoning Attacks (Soul Harvest)

Having Soul Harvest on your off-bar (also you AoE bar) means that you'll regenerate ultimate quickly from clearing trash, and you passively benefit from it as well, giving you 10% crit damage for having it slotted and a slightly higher crit chance.

For trash pulls, just keep your Merciless Resolve active, lay down WoE and Twisting Path and Sap everything to death. For single-target fights, your DoTs are WoE, TP, and Cripple. Keep these active for as close to 100% of the fight as possible. Otherwise, you want to light attack weave Swallow Soul. Whenever your Assassin's Will procs, cast Inner Light to empower it, then let it rip. You'll need to reapply Merciless Resolve after every Assassin's Will.

For added effect, you can sneak a Soul Harvest into your rotation to boost the damage of your Assassin's Will. To do this, simply wait until you ready to refresh your WoE and your TP (this way you don't waste time bar-swapping just to boost one skill, rather you bar-swap when it's appropriate, and take advantage of the convenience of already being on that bar). After you reapply your DoTs, hit your target with Soul Harvest, then empower an Assassin's Will.

With a Resto on the your off-bar, replace WoE with something like Healing Ward or Force Siphon, heck even Mutagen. You don't really need one for group content tbh, but for solo content like Maelstrom, I use a resto off-bar and the only resto skill I have is Healing Ward.

It might be a semi-decent DoT in this patch, but Agony is still a barely useful skill in terms of CC. It is inferior to CCs like Flame Reach, Fear and the Concealed Weapon stun. And the DoT component is not worth a skill slot imo when other, far more useful DoTs like Crippling Grasp are available. I agree, it can be good against sorcs, but that is very situational and not worth a slot on my bar. Besides, there are other ways to beat sorcs and I do fine against them without it.

You definitely don't need Proxy Det in PvE but it does help a lot. I love my 22k+ single target proxys in vMA.

A lot of magicka Nightblade, in PvE dungeons/group content, will use both destro and dual wield. The dual wield bar being mostly AoE, buffs and execute and destro being main single target dps. For example:
Destro: Crippling Grasp, Funnel Health, Merciless Resolve, Structured Entropy, Inner Light, Meteor
Dual Wield: Sap Essence, Impale, Proximity Detonation, Siphoning Attacks, Inner Light, Soul Harvest
The increased Spell Damage on dual wield bar allows you to clear trash faster, provide off heals and quickly gain ultimate with Siphoning passives and the Soul Harvest ultimate passive. Proximity detonation is insane burst damage in trash pulls as well.
Main single target rotation is Resolve > Entropy > Cripple > Funnel and Light attack weaving. Use Assassin's Will procs and reapply after.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Destro/DW is better than Destro/Destro in all cases, it's just a very viable option and in some cases a better one. imo they are both very good and outshine each other in different situations, just down to personal preferance.

I certainly did not mean to imply that DW is ineffective, if that's how it came off. The main reason I use destro/destro is because I have 2 vMA destro staves. My "bar 1" lineup can just as easily be used with DW instead of a destro. If you like DW more, have at it!

As for Agony, I think you might be surprised at how useful it actually is in pvp. I don't just use it for sorcs, I use it on everyone. I also use it in conjunction with cripple, not as a substitute. Agony > Cripple > Lotus Fan > Concealed Weapon is a very powerful combo; it applies 3 dots, an initial immobilize followed by a snare, procs major/ward resolve, and sets you up for strong melee instant cast attacks. The CC component is just the cherry on top; It's not any less useful than petrify or rune prison, but with all the damage that neither of those have. Fully buffed, my cripple is a 14k dot (pve, so ~7k pvp) and my Prolonged Suffering (aka agony) is almost a 10k dot (pve, so ~5k pvp).

Agony wins me a lot of fights; I just ran into a DK vamp tank in cyrodiil, and he used the usual talons + bat swarm + burning embers + whip combo on me. I hit him with agony, forced him into a CC, which bought me time to cast a healing ward, and he died from the agony dot (not from the dot alone of course, but I wasn't exactly on the offensive, and still won). Agony is unblockable, no matter the scenario. CC immunity is the only thing that can prevent it, and it does not prevent the dot. Basically, in 1v1 and 1vX scenarios, Agony is incredibly useful. For zergs, well... it's not. Even the AoE damage morph of Agony is lackluster compared to many other skills (like proxy det).

Proxy det is, if anything, a super fun skill to have. I didn't realize you were referring to settings like vMA, where proxy det is certainly more useful. I meant more of a dungeon or trial setting (except MoL), where most things die too quickly for your det to even pop.

I didnt mean to say you meant Dw was ineffective, apologies there's a lot of miscommunication here haha.

I have tried Agony in PvP in this patch but there is nothing on my current setup that I'm willing to lose for it.
DW: Sap, Concealed, Fear, Lotus, cloak, Soul harvest
Resto: Proxy, Cripple, Healing Ward, Double Take, Shadow Image, Soul Tether
There is nothing there that I would ever consider replacing with agony. Lotus and Cripple on my back bar provide me with 2 dots, and fear is the only CC I need. The cc goes through block and the debuffs it applies is wonderful. The fact it's multi target is even better.
In a 1v1 scenario against a Magick dk that you used as an example, my usual tactic is basically tank them and apply dots until their CC immunity is down, have a proxy primed and fear them just before it explodes, then go through damage rotation and ultimate if necessary.
I wasn't just referring to vma, it was just one example. Even in group content, if you know the engagements you prime the proxy before the fight so it explodes at the beginning or part way through.

aLi3nZ · April 2016

Thanks for the advice! I do plan on doing a lot of pvp later. I am just leveling atm. V8 now. I am a good sourc in pvp duels and have 2 v16 sorcs. I was going to share my sorc gear with my mageblade. I haven't got the hang of dueling on my nb but only v8 in terrible gear most the time but still I think I need a better rotation and skills/practice. So will use some advice from here

Americanfunguy · April 2016

If you would like, here is exactly what I do for my Magicka Nightblade.
Gear for pvp and pve is the same

Molag kena helm
Molag kena shoulders
5 armor pieces for Julianos (shoot for the 1/1/5 bonus)
DW swords of Torug's Pact (nirn)
Staff of Torug's Pact (nirn) (staff isn't to important for the set)
3 willpower jewelry max mag and spell damage

My bars look like this
PvP DW

Shadowy image
Mass hysteria
Concealed weapon
Shadowy guise (can be swapped for prox det)
Lotus fan
Soul tether

For my Destro bar

Funnel health
Impale
Crippling grasp
Merciless resolve (can be swapped out)
Scorching flare (can be swapped out for Piercing mark)

Now for dungeons I like to run DW as my aoe bar
DW dungeon

Impale
Sap essence
Prox det
Siphoning Attacks
Inner Light (can be swapped out)
Soul harvest (thats more for boss fights, can be swapped for Soul tether)

And for my Destro bar

Funnel health
Wall of elements (not a bad dot, especially if you get MA staff)
Crippling grasp
Merciless resolve
Inner light
Ice Comet

With this I enjoy the Theif mundus stone, and most points dumped into bonus Magic damage and Spell Crit damage for CP.

Hope this helped someone!

Autolycus · April 2016

Caza99 wrote: »

Agony can be useful in that way for a PVE situation, but the fact that damage breaks the CC means that in PvP, it is an ineffective CC when compared to the other ones a night blade has at its disposal.

There's actually no situation in which Agony has no utility. Regardless of whether or not the target is CC immune, they still take the DoT, which is not quite as strong as cripple, but stronger than lotus fan. The way you described taking down that same DK is actually far less efficient, where I only applied 2 DoTs and then let him die while I focused on myself. In this particular case (and there are countless examples of where it may or may not be effective), I beat him while on the defensive. You can do that with other skills, but the point is that Agony is useful in some way no matter what. The more targets you have to face, the less useful it becomes usually, though I can make an argument here that would diminish the meaning of this statement. There have been numerous occurrences in which I have singled out a healer in a group, and that couple of seconds he was CC'd wiped the group.

In practice, you use Agony as either a counter-measure, or to initiate the fight and force unequal playing terms from the start. It's for this same reason that so many DKs use petrify; it puts them at an advantage right out of the gate. Also, Agony is incredibly effective because it's underused; people don't know how to respond to it, and they aren't used to the DoT that comes with it. If you use Agony > Cripple > Lotus Fan, you usually can kill a target entirely from DoTs, but even if you don't, you're already in place to concealed weapon them to death. Another effective combo is: Proxy > Cripple > Agony > Lotus Fan > BOOM

Also, there is virtually no PvE scenario where I've found Agony to be useful. Imho it's strictly a pvp skill, or for leveling. I've contemplated its usefulness as a single-target DoT for boss rotations (since the DoT will apply even though bosses are CC immune) but I believe other alternatives are more practical and deal more damage in this situation.

Edit: Hopefully that came off as constructive and not as abrasive. I believe that what you have described in your build works for you and is viable, and I'm certain it will work for others too. I simply wanted to convey the true value of Agony, as I feel right now it is incredibly undervalued and underused. Watch, a week from now I'll be starting a "Nerf Agony!" thread... (no I won't

)

Caza99 · April 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

Agony can be useful in that way for a PVE situation, but the fact that damage breaks the CC means that in PvP, it is an ineffective CC when compared to the other ones a night blade has at its disposal.

There's actually no situation in which Agony has no utility. Regardless of whether or not the target is CC immune, they still take the DoT, which is not quite as strong as cripple, but stronger than lotus fan. The way you described taking down that same DK is actually far less efficient, where I only applied 2 DoTs and then let him die while I focused on myself. In this particular case (and there are countless examples of where it may or may not be effective), I beat him while on the defensive. You can do that with other skills, but the point is that Agony is useful in some way no matter what. The more targets you have to face, the less useful it becomes usually, though I can make an argument here that would diminish the meaning of this statement. There have been numerous occurrences in which I have singled out a healer in a group, and that couple of seconds he was CC'd wiped the group.

In practice, you use Agony as either a counter-measure, or to initiate the fight and force unequal playing terms from the start. It's for this same reason that so many DKs use petrify; it puts them at an advantage right out of the gate. Also, Agony is incredibly effective because it's underused; people don't know how to respond to it, and they aren't used to the DoT that comes with it. If you use Agony > Cripple > Lotus Fan, you usually can kill a target entirely from DoTs, but even if you don't, you're already in place to concealed weapon them to death. Another effective combo is: Proxy > Cripple > Agony > Lotus Fan > BOOM

Also, there is virtually no PvE scenario where I've found Agony to be useful. Imho it's strictly a pvp skill, or for leveling. I've contemplated its usefulness as a single-target DoT for boss rotations (since the DoT will apply even though bosses are CC immune) but I believe other alternatives are more practical and deal more damage in this situation.

Edit: Hopefully that came off as constructive and not as abrasive. I believe that what you have described in your build works for you and is viable, and I'm certain it will work for others too. I simply wanted to convey the true value of Agony, as I feel right now it is incredibly undervalued and underused. Watch, a week from now I'll be starting a "Nerf Agony!" thread... (no I won't )

I didn't mean to come off as saying that Agony has no use or utility at all, I tried to make it clear that I mean it is no where near as good as many other CCs and DOTs a night blade has access to. I do see your point about it being an effective DoT in some cases, but imo there are better skills that are more useful in more situations than Agony that can be slotted.
My comment about PvE use was referring to the previous comment, about using it in vMA on final stage to get the summoner out of the way as I can see it being very useful there. I'm a total PvE potato though so I've never finished vMA xD

Americanfunguy wrote: »

If you would like, here is exactly what I do for my Magicka Nightblade.
Gear for pvp and pve is the same
Molag kena helm

Molag kena shoulders

5 armor pieces for Julianos (shoot for the 1/1/5 bonus)

DW swords of Torug's Pact (nirn)

Staff of Torug's Pact (nirn) (staff isn't to important for the set)

3 willpower jewelry max mag and spell damage

My bars look like this
PvP DW
Shadowy image

Mass hysteria

Concealed weapon

Shadowy guise (can be swapped for prox det)

Lotus fan

Soul tether

For my Destro bar
Funnel health

Impale

Crippling grasp

Merciless resolve (can be swapped out)

Scorching flare (can be swapped out for Piercing mark)

Now for dungeons I like to run DW as my aoe bar
DW dungeon
Impale

Sap essence

Prox det

Siphoning Attacks

Inner Light (can be swapped out)

Soul harvest (thats more for boss fights, can be swapped for Soul tether)

And for my Destro bar
Funnel health

Wall of elements (not a bad dot, especially if you get MA staff)

Crippling grasp

Merciless resolve

Inner light

Ice Comet

With this I enjoy the Theif mundus stone, and most points dumped into bonus Magic damage and Spell Crit damage for CP.

Hope this helped someone!

This is quite an interesting and...unique build. Not many nbs run DW/Destro in PvP, mostly because you don't really need 2 offensive weapon bars in PvP. Lack of an instant heal would also put a build like this at a disadvantage if not played smart and tactically. Also, why Scorching Flare? Piercing Mark is far superior to Flare, as it prevents them from re-entering stealth for longer and increases your damage to them due to Major Breach, etc. Impale is also a skill you may find you do not need, as in the current state of PvP, by the time you get into execute range it may take 2-3 impales to finish then but you can also do it with 2-3 funnels or concealed weapons. If you are intent on running flare, elemental drain may be good instead of impale on this bar for increased damage on the target and a little more sustain. If you do run mark though, I would suggest Proximity Detonation or Structured Entropy so you have a Major Sorcery buff in your rotation. Hope this helps!