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why no underwater gameplay ?
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Genomic✭✭✭✭✭It's funny that EverQuest a MMO that came out in 1999 had underwater fighting and exploration, and it was actually fun.
Yeah, the "programming is hard" arguments wear a bit thin after a while, particularly when other MMO's, even quite recent ones, can manage what is "impossibly difficult". Will and skill are what seems to be actually lacking.0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »I recall the devs saying something about it being too much work.
If it's too much work,how come they can make new motifs and such? They could do it,if they wanted do.
Expanding the world by a quarter or a 5th (areas with water), redoing most skills to include the Z axis and making sense under water (underwater fireballs? underwater lightning bolts?), adding swimming combat animations for weapons, replacing some weapons completely (bows, 2h weapons), yea... I dont think you can compare that with adding a new costume to the cash shop.
In Morrowind we used swords,daggers,and even bows underwater,and it was a measley single person game. I am talking about the motifs you craft ingame.To make new styles of armor.That's quite a bit of work there.
How do you use a bow under water? Seriously, that makes no sense. Daggers, swords are OK but only for stabbing and most current animations are of the swingy sort. Making new styles of armor still isnt comparable to what I described. Making underwater content is like creating a separate game within the already existing game.
Go play Morrowind and find out. A lot of things in games dont make sense.
For instance,a fantasy Game,Tera,with unicorns,fairies,and all sorts of things,gives you guns to kill with. Doesnt make much sense to me,but its there.
If you dont believe the under water fighting with weapons is in Morrowind,who am I to change your mind.Edited by Volkodav on March 27, 2016 4:17PM0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS coders aren't skilled enough to handle the design. They have pretty much said "it's hard"...and left it at that.What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!5 -
phreatophile✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because ZOS couldn't make something that Bethesda did in the 90's work in 2014. Perhaps laziness.
They still have a long way to go for this to be a complete Elder Scrolls game. 2 years on and we are just now getting Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood. Still nothing underwater, no spell crafting, few Daedric quests. These are base game features in an Elder Scrolls game.4 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement. I'm not sure how valid it is but I would not doubt it too much.
Believe me guys, I would love to see this added because ELDER SCROLLS (and asked for it in the past multiple times) but have been disheartened at the idea of ZOS introducing huge new systems into the bug-ridden game which they won't fix. They butchered console performance last patch and have pretty much said "Problems? Sure, we'll work on it eventually... Lolz. Gonna need a couple months to fix what we broke in the last patch!"
Kinda explains situations like:
- Difficulty in jumping up a 1ft high gap between two rocks especially when standing next to it.
- Your horse being unable to run up a 5degree incline without stopping.
- [EDIT] Your horse being unable to run on an absolutely flat surface without stopping to a near halt every 8 seconds or so.
- Bolt Escape bug causing your character to magically lose all forward momentum upon use.
- Jumping on a sloped surface and having to slide down in a jumping animation at 1mph, taking 1-10 seconds of frustration to finish.
They either haven't or couldn't fixed these normal movement issues for over a year, so how are they gonna add underwater combat? If it happened, development on other content/bug fixes would be slowed, on top of many new bugs Being introduced.
I feel like this game doesn't need to compile more bugs they won't actually fix.Edited by Vaoh on March 27, 2016 5:10PM3 -
reften✭✭✭✭✭Because Trials of Atlantis is what killed DAoC and they don't want to make the same mistake twice.Reften
Bosmer (Wood Elf)
Moonlight Crew (RIP), Misfitz (RIP), Victorem Guild
VR16 NB, Stam build, Max all crafts.
Azuras & Trueflame. Mostly PvP, No alts.
Semi-retired till the lag is fixed.
Love the Packers, Bourbon, and ESO...one of those will eventually kill me.0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement.
The problem with this @Doncellius, and why I think it's a bullshart response, is that ZOS designed and created this engine for the singular purpose of bringing the dream of an Elder Scrolls MMO to fruition.
WHY, then, didn't they create an engine that supports vertical movement for underwater gameplay... or an engine that supports interactive furniture... or an engine that supports non-zoning with an actual open world to explore (which CAN be done... BDO) ... or an engine that can ACTUALLY handle a massive amount of multiple players.... or an engine that takes into account the fact that the world has TWO moons...
I personally assume the answer is because they did little more than Ctrl C + Ctrl V on the Hero Engine's code... I haven't seen any reason not to believe this.
Hell, I've even asked on multiple occasions what they named the engine they made for ESO. I was hoping it would be something TES related like "The Mundus Machine" or "C.H.I.M" with CHIM standing for some cool collection of words, but ZOS has never responded to the question.
It's probably something like Zenimax Creation Suite or... the Champion Engine.
Edited by Gidorick on March 27, 2016 9:34PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!3 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement.
The problem with this @Doncellius, and why I think it's a bullshart response, is that ZOS designed and created this engine for the singular purpose of bringing the dream of an Elder Scrolls MMO to fruition.
WHY, then, didn't they create an engine that supports vertical movement for underwater gameplay... or an engine that supports interactive furniture... or an engine that supports non-zoning with an actual open world to explore (which CAN be done... BDO) ... or an engine that can ACTUALLY handle a massive amount of multiple players.... or an engine that takes into account the fact that the world has TWO moons...
I personally assume the answer is because they did little more than a Ctrl C + Ctrl V on the Hero Engine's code... I haven't seen any reason not to believe this.
Agreed. The hero engine has never had a great water system and if they added to the game they would have to build a water engine from scratch.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Gidorick I don't disagree with you. It isn't because it cannot be done, since literally anything can be added to the game. ZOS brought to life an Elder Scrolls MMO, and they took shortcuts where they could. This is one such shortcut. What I was really trying to get across, was that it would involve too much work for them to put in without making direct $$, and $$ is exactly what they are interested in nowadays. People who want decent improvements without paying money are out of luck. Priorities are rested within the Crown Store.
This is the same reason behind Cyrodiil's persistent PvP issues never being fixed and why they may never get fixed. When you can instead release DLC for Crowns, and then a bunch of Crown Store items for more Crowns which are themed to that DLC, you make a lot of money. Spellcrafting, Underwater Combat, fixing Cyrodiil lag/imbalances.... what's the point of worrying about these "large-workload no direct money" projects if you can make the short term cash by pushing out new content/new buggy updates until so many people leave that you have to fix the bugs to bring everyone back?
It is getting to the point where compiled bugs are getting more and more complicated to fix since buggy updates keep on releasing. My hopes lie within Dark Brotherhood, where Veteran Ranks will be removed and hopefully they decide to have a massive amount of horrible Bugs/Cyrodiil performance issues fixed as well. Would do ESO a ton of good.
I'll just sum it up by saying....Zenimax is blessed with their MMO having the Elder Scrolls Franchise label on it.
EDIT: Spellcrafting is already almost finished, but will be pushed off at least another full year from now because it will serve as the "selling/advertising point" of a future DLC one day. (Similar to Barber Shop, Veteran Ranks, etc).Edited by Vaoh on March 27, 2016 9:56PM3 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »I recall the devs saying something about it being too much work.
If it's too much work,how come they can make new motifs and such? They could do it,if they wanted do.
Expanding the world by a quarter or a 5th (areas with water), redoing most skills to include the Z axis and making sense under water (underwater fireballs? underwater lightning bolts?), adding swimming combat animations for weapons, replacing some weapons completely (bows, 2h weapons), yea... I dont think you can compare that with adding a new costume to the cash shop.
In Morrowind we used swords,daggers,and even bows underwater,and it was a measley single person game. I am talking about the motifs you craft ingame.To make new styles of armor.That's quite a bit of work there.
How do you use a bow under water? Seriously, that makes no sense. Daggers, swords are OK but only for stabbing and most current animations are of the swingy sort. Making new styles of armor still isnt comparable to what I described. Making underwater content is like creating a separate game within the already existing game.
Go play Morrowind and find out. A lot of things in games dont make sense.
For instance,a fantasy Game,Tera,with unicorns,fairies,and all sorts of things,gives you guns to kill with. Doesnt make much sense to me,but its there.
If you dont believe the under water fighting with weapons is in Morrowind,who am I to change your mind.
Do you read what you reply to? I didnt say you cant use weapons under water in Morrowind (I dont remember that game enough to tell). I said the idea of using bows under water with any effectiveness is ludicrous. Speargun, sure. Bow, no.
While fantasy worlds dont have to be realistic in the strict sense of the word, they need to be internally consistent. The reality of ESO doesnt share all the rules with our reality but it does have rules. Does water in ESO have the density of air? (No.) Do you walk through it like its not there or swim in it? (Swim.) If you swim in it (yes) then shooting bows in it wouldnt be very effective. Thus, Devs would have to exchange bows for spearguns or fudge some sort of 'magical' explanation like enchants that make bows and arrows ignore water (but most people in the world of ESO dont have access to this kind of magic so theyd develop underwater weapons anyway... which would make bow enchanting impractical in the first place...) Theyd have to make new combat animations either way and some of the skills would have to be reworked (snipe, volley). Same with melee weapons and elemental attacks.
Also, do you want ESO to be more like TERA? I dont.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement. I'm not sure how valid it is but I would not doubt it too much.
Believe me guys, I would love to see this added because ELDER SCROLLS (and asked for it in the past multiple times) but have been disheartened at the idea of ZOS introducing huge new systems into the bug-ridden game which they won't fix. They butchered console performance last patch and have pretty much said "Problems? Sure, we'll work on it eventually... Lolz. Gonna need a couple months to fix what we broke in the last patch!"
Kinda explains situations like:
- Difficulty in jumping up a 1ft high gap between two rocks especially when standing next to it.
- Your horse being unable to run up a 5degree incline without stopping.
- [EDIT] Your horse being unable to run on an absolutely flat surface without stopping to a near halt every 8 seconds or so.
- Bolt Escape bug causing your character to magically lose all forward momentum upon use.
- Jumping on a sloped surface and having to slide down in a jumping animation at 1mph, taking 1-10 seconds of frustration to finish.
They either haven't or couldn't fixed these normal movement issues for over a year, so how are they gonna add underwater combat? If it happened, development on other content/bug fixes would be slowed, on top of many new bugs Being introduced.
I feel like this game doesn't need to compile more bugs they won't actually fix.
But why is swimming and underwater battle done in a game that was made back in 2002? Morrowind. How is it that such an advanced engine cannot compete with such a dated engine?0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lol. I wasn't actually arguing with you @Doncellius , I was mostly just using your response as a springboard to post the little rant I wanted to post... so thanks for that.KhajiitiLizard wrote: »
I agree and when the narrative of a franchise EXPLICITLY makes use of underwater skills and abilities (water-breathing potions and Argonians... in just about their entirety) not including underwater environments is shortsighted.Edited by Gidorick on March 28, 2016 1:39PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!2 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement. I'm not sure how valid it is but I would not doubt it too much.
Believe me guys, I would love to see this added because ELDER SCROLLS (and asked for it in the past multiple times) but have been disheartened at the idea of ZOS introducing huge new systems into the bug-ridden game which they won't fix. They butchered console performance last patch and have pretty much said "Problems? Sure, we'll work on it eventually... Lolz. Gonna need a couple months to fix what we broke in the last patch!"
Kinda explains situations like:
- Difficulty in jumping up a 1ft high gap between two rocks especially when standing next to it.
- Your horse being unable to run up a 5degree incline without stopping.
- [EDIT] Your horse being unable to run on an absolutely flat surface without stopping to a near halt every 8 seconds or so.
- Bolt Escape bug causing your character to magically lose all forward momentum upon use.
- Jumping on a sloped surface and having to slide down in a jumping animation at 1mph, taking 1-10 seconds of frustration to finish.
They either haven't or couldn't fixed these normal movement issues for over a year, so how are they gonna add underwater combat? If it happened, development on other content/bug fixes would be slowed, on top of many new bugs Being introduced.
I feel like this game doesn't need to compile more bugs they won't actually fix.
But why is swimming and underwater battle done in a game that was made back in 2002? Morrowind. How is it that such an advanced engine cannot compete with such a dated engine?
Its not about engine, its about putting in a huge amount of work into something most people would dislike anyway.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement. I'm not sure how valid it is but I would not doubt it too much.
Believe me guys, I would love to see this added because ELDER SCROLLS (and asked for it in the past multiple times) but have been disheartened at the idea of ZOS introducing huge new systems into the bug-ridden game which they won't fix. They butchered console performance last patch and have pretty much said "Problems? Sure, we'll work on it eventually... Lolz. Gonna need a couple months to fix what we broke in the last patch!"
Kinda explains situations like:
- Difficulty in jumping up a 1ft high gap between two rocks especially when standing next to it.
- Your horse being unable to run up a 5degree incline without stopping.
- [EDIT] Your horse being unable to run on an absolutely flat surface without stopping to a near halt every 8 seconds or so.
- Bolt Escape bug causing your character to magically lose all forward momentum upon use.
- Jumping on a sloped surface and having to slide down in a jumping animation at 1mph, taking 1-10 seconds of frustration to finish.
They either haven't or couldn't fixed these normal movement issues for over a year, so how are they gonna add underwater combat? If it happened, development on other content/bug fixes would be slowed, on top of many new bugs Being introduced.
I feel like this game doesn't need to compile more bugs they won't actually fix.
But why is swimming and underwater battle done in a game that was made back in 2002? Morrowind. How is it that such an advanced engine cannot compete with such a dated engine?
Its not about engine, its about putting in a huge amount of work into something most people would dislike anyway.
Why would they dislike it? I havent seen much about that.A lot about wanting it though. Just dont do it.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Doncellius wrote: »@LostScot
@Volkodav
@Nirnroot
According to posts (like @KhajiitiLizard in this thread) on every single one of the numerous threads posted overtime about this topic, the game engine used for ESO doesn't really support true Z-axis movement. I'm not sure how valid it is but I would not doubt it too much.
Believe me guys, I would love to see this added because ELDER SCROLLS (and asked for it in the past multiple times) but have been disheartened at the idea of ZOS introducing huge new systems into the bug-ridden game which they won't fix. They butchered console performance last patch and have pretty much said "Problems? Sure, we'll work on it eventually... Lolz. Gonna need a couple months to fix what we broke in the last patch!"
Kinda explains situations like:
- Difficulty in jumping up a 1ft high gap between two rocks especially when standing next to it.
- Your horse being unable to run up a 5degree incline without stopping.
- [EDIT] Your horse being unable to run on an absolutely flat surface without stopping to a near halt every 8 seconds or so.
- Bolt Escape bug causing your character to magically lose all forward momentum upon use.
- Jumping on a sloped surface and having to slide down in a jumping animation at 1mph, taking 1-10 seconds of frustration to finish.
They either haven't or couldn't fixed these normal movement issues for over a year, so how are they gonna add underwater combat? If it happened, development on other content/bug fixes would be slowed, on top of many new bugs Being introduced.
I feel like this game doesn't need to compile more bugs they won't actually fix.
But why is swimming and underwater battle done in a game that was made back in 2002? Morrowind. How is it that such an advanced engine cannot compete with such a dated engine?
Its not about engine, its about putting in a huge amount of work into something most people would dislike anyway.
Why would they dislike it? I havent seen much about that.A lot about wanting it though. Just dont do it.
Make a poll and see how many people enjoy underwater content in MMOs as much as normal, land content.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on March 28, 2016 6:44PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
mb10✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Okay you designed the underwater world of tamriel and all its secrets that stick to lore if its as easy as youre making it sound.0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Okay you designed the underwater world of tamriel and all its secrets that stick to lore if its as easy as youre making it sound.
We're expecting VIDEOGAME developers to develop a videogame. It's akin to expecting a heart surgeon to know how to perform a heart valve replacement. Imagine your mechanic telling you that he won't replace the transmission on your car because "it's hard"... I can't replace the transmission but I sure as hull can expect that he would be willing and able. It's. His. JOB.
Just because I can't do something doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to expect the people who have been trained to do that thing, and do it professionally to garner my money, to be able to do that something.
If they're not... they don't get my business. Simple.
ZOS has gotten plenty of business from me... I'm not sure how much more they're going to get.
Edited by Gidorick on March 28, 2016 6:52PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In GW2, they have awesome UW exploration and combat. In my estimation 75%+ of the player base hates it.
For all of you saying "it's possible", you are not the developers of this game or the engine it runs on. UW movement, combat, physics is a bit more involved than running along a 2 dimensional land surface. I'm pretty sure the developers know more about what is possible than we do.
I would rather they spend development time on opening more land areas of Tamriel before underwater areas that most if the player base will hate anyway.Edited by Katahdin on March 28, 2016 6:58PMBeta tester November 20133 -
starlizard70ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They're having enough problems just letting people play for more then 15 mins at a time on land, (ie. see EU server threads), and you really want them to try and add underwater gameplay, lol....
"We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For the answer to the question ("why no underwater gameplay?"), watch Armchair Developer (starts at 1:11:00):
https://youtu.be/uxigt8ipK1g?t=1h11m UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp2
