guard system is so incredibly frustrating

UrQuan · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

In other words: you just wanted to complain and aren't interested in learning anything. The guards are easy to avoid or get away from. They don't need to be changed just because you're too lazy to bother trying.

Spacemonkey · March 2016

Well your complaint is:

Guards sucks they keep owning me, its frustrating and making me not enjoy stuff - I want to be able to kill them.

To which everyone is answering, ... non of us get owned by guards, they are so easy to avoid its laughable, if anything they should be harder.

The point of the guards is to make you avoid them. It adds a cat and mouse game to theiving, especially in Abah's Landing. If you don't like theiving.... then don't do it?

Guards will never be killable. Or, exactly as it's been mentioned already, guilds would gang up and kill em and then abuse stealing/murdering down to the last fishy stick every single town. And we'd be left with issues of: *Seminal dissapeared, someone killed him again!!* - *Nah he just left on vacation again* - *Why are there ")(%*3 lockpicks in every . single . container*

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

kratier wrote: »

as a new player, im finding the most frustrating absolutely soul destroying thing in this game is the guards. they are unkillable and endlessly spam roots, you cant do anything, then you lose all your thieving progress because you are absolutely powerless against it
like, i cant explain to you just how awful i think the guard system is, from the little "pay the guard" to his awful dialog and how immersion breaking it is, to the part where the guards are literally immortal invulnerable gods
like i love the thieving part, but the guard system is atrociously bad, i hope you guys improve it because omg its so frustrating and awful

with it being online with a lot of people if guards were kill able everyone would just kill all the guards in the cities and steal unrestrictedly and what would the fun of that be?

I dontlb@yandex.ru mind them being very strong...but immortal is not ok...

RAGUNAnoOne · March 2016

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Run from guard, use invisibility potion, keep loot.

Aren't they like Daggerfall vampires in the sense that they can see invisible people?

Wollust · March 2016

Wait.. Someone is actually complaining about those ridiculous guards being too strong?
Hahahah

#casualmmo

Dubhliam · March 2016

The system is TOO EASY.

There are many ways to counter guards, @UrQuan , @Nestor , @dodgehopper_ESO and others have given you detailed explanation on how to do it, so I won't repeat all them here.

My 2 cents:
-go to Cyrodill (available from lvl 10) and complete one short quest to get the Rapid Manouver skill.
-DON'T RUN!!! WALK!!! I cannot emphasize this enough. even without Rapid Manouver, the guard can't catch you while you walk. If you get rooted, roll dodge. Walk away. If you get stunned, break free. Walk away. By running you only spend your stamina and cannot regenerate it. You need stamina to roll dodge and break free.

It seems to me you are not willing to adapt, you just encountered something that you don't like and would like it changed to fit your vision of it. Reminds me of that guy that wanted to complete the Thieves Guild in full Heavy armor.

Farorin · March 2016

Guards are too easy to get away from. I literally don't even care about having a 5k+ bounty and running through the streets on a rampage because if a guard sees me I'm just like "HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" and run away, lose the guard, rinse, repeat.

Although when I first started doing it guards where near impossible for me to escape, so it is something you learn with time and practice. Even my low level, non stealth oriented alts (level 20ish) can escape guards quite easy.

IrishGirlGamer · March 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

kratier wrote: »

you say run , but then the guard just spams root on you endlessly and you eventually run out of stamina from running and rolling out of the roots, then they just root you again and you are stuck there unable to do anything while you are being killed
i just think they shouldnt even have health bars if you are going to make them unkillable, and you shouldnt have them KILL YOU for stealing stuff. they should arrest you or something, like this is the most unimmersive thing in the entire game and totally is ruining my experience with the game. like this is the new big DLC expansion, but the guards are like the most lazy worthless thing about the DLC, like it probably took them 5 minutes to make them and like it seems they put absolutely no thought into them, to make them interesting or unique or smartly designed, its like the most basic terrible thing about the game so far for me

retreating maneuvers grants u a temporary immunity to roots.

You are welcome @kratier

I don't know if he's grateful, but I am - I didn't know that!

UrQuan · March 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Reminds me of that guy that wanted to complete the Thieves Guild in full Heavy armor.

Aside from maybe the heist daily quests, you can totally do the Thieves Guild in full heavy armour - it's just way easier if you do it in stealthy gear

Benie · March 2016

I did the "introductory" questline of trying to get this crown or whatever. I got pissed off the fact I couldn't even target the guard that kept pulling me out of my hiding spot. Wanted to run her through with my 2H Sword to just show her how pissed off I was. Instead, she kills me in two hits. Didn't even have a bounty on me. I was just trying to figure out where in the hell I was supposed to go.
I was expecting something a lot easier as the first quest to get into the DLC. Because, you know... start off easy and then work up to give new players a feeling of accomplishment?

Instead, my char's acting like he's a master thief (even though I'm not a thief), and things like this are happening. Again, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing. They threw me in the fire with no idea what to do.

IrishGirlGamer · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

Don't do that. People are trying to help you.

Take that attitude to WoW.

To @UrQuan , @dodgehopper_ESO and others:

Don't think your advice was wasted. You've inspired me to really start stealing.

UrQuan · March 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

Don't do that. People are trying to help you.

Take that attitude to WoW.

To @UrQuan , @dodgehopper_ESO and others:

Don't think your advice was wasted. You've inspired me to really start stealing.

Well @IrishGirlGamer it's like I always say: if I can convince just one person to really start stealing, then I feel like I've made a difference

NativeJoe · March 2016

I agree on the gaurds and gold taking thing. I mean... I barley break even from stealing stuff. 10k bounty is common place for me...and thats a temper and a dreu wax. x.x Each time I try to level this crap.

Qyrk · March 2016

As others have provided advice and OP still insist the system is poorly designed, there's no use in trying to help him. Can't help the ignorant.

Benie · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

I half-support the OP. I do pay attention to guard patrols (treat it like a stealth game). But in most stealth games, you CAN kill guards if they get in your way and hide the bodies. This new 'forced' stealth system, I doubt you will see in other stealth games. Because too many people would complain.
A good stealth game, killing should always be the last resort. But when you got something like this that killing isn't an option... it just puts more "You HAVE to play RIGHT!!" pressure on the player. And it just turns them away from enjoying the content. The OP, proves this. I understand you all trying to help the OP, but I don't think you see it from their side.

Plus, you tell the OP to go to a PvP only zone (how I see it) to do a 'short' quest to get some sort of ability that takes away a useful ability in your hotbar. I personally have no desire to be ganked by a VR16 who just happens to swing by while trying to do the quest (or even by his buddies).

This is ZoS, once again, telling you "Hey, you can do this at any level!"... yet leaving out the fine print a new player NEEDS to know (instead of having it thrown in their face without warning).
If they, as a company, would had lay it out infront of everyone of what you'll expect (such as the whole 'scaled' endgame content that if you haven't mastered your class and/or don't have the gear needed, you're screwed), I think it would help new players a whole lot more.

Volkodav · March 2016

kratier wrote: »

as a new player, im finding the most frustrating absolutely soul destroying thing in this game is the guards. they are unkillable and endlessly spam roots, you cant do anything, then you lose all your thieving progress because you are absolutely powerless against it
like, i cant explain to you just how awful i think the guard system is, from the little "pay the guard" to his awful dialog and how immersion breaking it is, to the part where the guards are literally immortal invulnerable gods
like i love the thieving part, but the guard system is atrociously bad, i hope you guys improve it because omg its so frustrating and awful

Why not make them killable with an achievement for killing 10,then 50,then 75,then 100.
I have never understood the reasoning for making them immortal,..and using magic.

ADarklore · March 2016

From someone who has been playing almost a year and just in the last couple of days started doing any type of thievery, what I learned tonight is never approach a city if you have a bounty and carrying valuable stolen loot. Here is what I do, being in the AD alliance... I find a Wayshrine outside of a city, then teleport to "The Harborage", from there I ride up the coast and into the Outlaw's Refuge. I never have to worry about encountering a guard, I pay off any bounties at the Fence, and exit the Refuge into Vulkhel Guard so I can easily go to the bank to list Laundered items on Guild Trader, then back to the Wayshrine to return to my previous location. Just a helpful hint if you're in the AD side... there may be other Refuge entrances as easily reached as Vulkhel Guard's Refuge, but most I've seen are too close to potential guards for my comfort level.

UrQuan · March 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

From someone who has been playing almost a year and just in the last couple of days started doing any type of thievery, what I learned tonight is never approach a city if you have a bounty and carrying valuable stolen loot. Here is what I do, being in the AD alliance... I find a Wayshrine outside of a city, then teleport to "The Harborage", from there I ride up the coast and into the Outlaw's Refuge. I never have to worry about encountering a guard, I pay off any bounties at the Fence, and exit the Refuge into Vulkhel Guard so I can easily go to the bank to list Laundered items on Guild Trader, then back to the Wayshrine to return to my previous location. Just a helpful hint if you're in the AD side... there may be other Refuge entrances as easily reached as Vulkhel Guard's Refuge, but most I've seen are too close to potential guards for my comfort level.

Every single refuge has an entrance inside the city, and one outside the city (on PTS before the justice system launched on live each of them had way more entrances, but it was absolutely ridiculously easy to always get to a refuge entrance so based on PTS feedback they closed all of the entrances except for 2). So unless you're already inside a city you've always got the option of getting to a refuge without going somewhere guards can see you.

IcyDeadPeople · March 2016

Obliterate wrote: »

I think you're supposed to run not try to kill the guards

This is Elder Scrolls, you're encouraged to go where you want, do whatever you think your character would do, but the guards being invincible feels a bit cheap, sort of like the invisible walls preventing you from climbing a mountain, etc. The justice system would add a lot more fun to the game if you could actually fight guards and stand a chance at killing one with a significant group of players.

Also recently I experienced a new bug that won't allow me to spawn from soul gems - as a result, every time a guard deity kills me, I have to go back to the wayshrine. Some quests seem to be impossible to complete, as I can't get near the quest giver.

Benie · March 2016

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

I think you're supposed to run not try to kill the guards

This is Elder Scrolls, you're encouraged to go where you want, do whatever you think your character would do, but the guards being invincible feels like a letdown.

THIS!! But any MMO is like this. Even WoW allows you to play your way.
This isn't a horror game like Amnesia, where you do have to run and hide. You shouldn't have to be forced to "get gud" in order to do the content. It should be optional. Options make games good, especially when it comes to stealth.

i3ig_Gun · March 2016

I think the thing that bothers me the most about the guards is how much *** they talk...

I've banished the Daedric Lord Molag Bal... and still get talked to like a piece of *** when I walk by one.

when I try to RP and slap one, they nearly one shot me (and im a tanky SOB)

If they are so damned tough, why do we even have to complete any of the main story line... just send a guard from Daggerfall and instantly save the world...

Volkodav · March 2016

Lysette wrote: »

There are so many edicts in thief troves - if something goes wrong, just use one of those and the problem is gone, no guards chasing you. Otherwise if you really need to run, its good to know the location, where are hiding spots, where can you break line of sight, where are other guards patrolling. To observe a location before you are actually doing something there is a normal activity for a successful thief - without to know the location and the habits of the security guards, it is dangerous.

There arent so many anymore.First they changed the troves so they spawn less and the items inside offer less of the edicts than before.I love those too!

Samadhi · March 2016

My biggest complaint about the guards are that they are too easy to escape. The new guards with lanterns are a nice touch, but did not do much to up the challenge.

Bossdonut · March 2016

If you can't do the time don't commit the crime.

Benie · March 2016

Bossdonut wrote: »

If you can't do the time don't commit the crime.

That doesn't help anyone. ZoS wants players to enjoy their content. I feel as a player, I should be able to enjoy them my preferred way, and not their forced way.
Not everyone will be able to master this newness. ZoS needs to learn this and balance.

Bossdonut · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Bossdonut wrote: »

If you can't do the time don't commit the crime.

That doesn't help anyone. ZoS wants players to enjoy their content. I feel as a player, I should be able to enjoy them my preferred way, and not their forced way.
It's like, when you were young, being told to ride a bike without training wheels (and it's your first time). And everytime you fall off and get mad, your parents tell you to "get gud". That's bad parenting.

I'd say a life of crime is not for you then.

Volkodav · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

Bossdonut wrote: »

If you can't do the time don't commit the crime.

That doesn't help anyone. ZoS wants players to enjoy their content. I feel as a player, I should be able to enjoy them my preferred way, and not their forced way.
It's like, when you were young, being told to ride a bike without training wheels (and it's your first time). And everytime you fall off and get mad, your parents tell you to "get gud". That's bad parenting.
And instead of the kid learning from their mistakes, they give up.

Umm,..I was given my first bike and learned to ride on ice an snow,without training wheels.
It wasnt bad parenting,just telling me that no one is going to help me but me,and I should learn that.I did just fine. :}
BUT,..I am with you about this in one aspect.That small comment didnt help.Having said that,they cant make the guards change for one person to another.One likes them hard to kill,.others dont want that.It would be a rough mess to try and sort out.

notimetocare · March 2016

100% L2P issue. Guards are the onyl real threat to theiving and they work fine imo. Plan what you do. A skilled thief steals and lives happily. Lazy theives get caught with their pants down in 7/11.

Volkodav · March 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

100% L2P issue. Guards are the onyl real threat to theiving and they work fine imo. Plan what you do. A skilled thief steals and lives happily. Lazy theives get caught with their pants down in 7/11.

I dont mind getting caught,but I DO mind not being able to kill my attackers.Everyone else is killable but those guards.I can get away,no problem,and usually do.But the magic roots and immortality are just out of line.They are just guards,not Mages.

Lysette · March 2016

Benie wrote: »

kratier wrote: »

you all are just replying with variations of "git gud" when thats not my complaint at all, the system is lazy and poorly made, it is not enjoyable, fun in the slightest.

i would recommend like 15 different alternatives to the system we have now, i think the reason the guards are this way are just because of how everything in this game is level scaled, and their solution is just lazy.

I half-support the OP. I do pay attention to guard patrols (treat it like a stealth game). But in most stealth games, you CAN kill guards if they get in your way and hide the bodies. This new 'forced' stealth system, I doubt you will see in other stealth games. Because too many people would complain.
A good stealth game, killing should always be the last resort. But when you got something like this that killing isn't an option... it just puts more "You HAVE to play RIGHT!!" pressure on the player. And it just turns them away from enjoying the content. The OP, proves this. I understand you all trying to help the OP, but I don't think you see it from their side.

Plus, you tell the OP to go to a PvP only zone (how I see it) to do a 'short' quest to get some sort of ability that takes away a useful ability in your hotbar. I personally have no desire to be ganked by a VR16 who just happens to swing by while trying to do the quest (or even by his buddies).

This is ZoS, once again, telling you "Hey, you can do this at any level!"... yet leaving out the fine print a new player NEEDS to know (instead of having it thrown in their face without warning).
If they, as a company, would had lay it out infront of everyone of what you'll expect (such as the whole 'scaled' endgame content that if you haven't mastered your class and/or don't have the gear needed, you're screwed), I think it would help new players a whole lot more.

Well, one of the rules of the thief guild in every TES game so far was, that they do not kill, they are neither the Morag Tong nor the dark brotherhood and they were proud of the fact, that they do not kill. So it is wrong to want to kill anyone as a thief, while you are going after your profession. You are no worthy thief, if you do not follow this basic rule of the guild.