zerosingularity wrote: »

Animation Cancelling is fine, both weaving and block cancelling. (It easy to get good at it, getting fantastic at it is NOT required.) It is needed to allow proper reactions in combat, especially with channels. (Don't wanna be unable to dodge that Wrecking Blow while channeling Jesus Beam.)

Furthermore, the rolled back PTS changes to it ARE still coming, just at a later date, and they give exactly what OP seems to want. The animations actually play out more so you can see them, and there is NO effect to DPS intended. I should point out you were still able to block cancel skills, just the skills still played. (You got the benefit of block while the skill was playing.)

You are partially right and partially wrong.
The animation cancel mechanic is fun, I like being able to dodge while in the middle of an attack.
The stupid thing is that I STILL DO THE STUPID ATTACK XD
I can do 3-5k damage with a light attack and it can be canceled immediately with a skill, meaining it is a 0.1 seconds attack, there's no way that you can create an animation that justifies a 5k free damage in such a small time.
It's undodgeable, you get it without seeing any animation at all so the stupid changes they made in PTS are equally useless since the bug remains (and that tells us they want to put some *** over to cover it rather than fixing that)

Animation canceling should go along with damage canceling, that would make a lot of sense and still keeping the game fun and reactive

.It's fluid cooldown free combat system is the best thing in this game, no need to bring that on par with other games. Not going to bother "nitpicking" at everything else in your post again...

Liukke wrote: »

zerosingularity wrote: »

Animation Cancelling is fine, both weaving and block cancelling. (It easy to get good at it, getting fantastic at it is NOT required.) It is needed to allow proper reactions in combat, especially with channels. (Don't wanna be unable to dodge that Wrecking Blow while channeling Jesus Beam.)

Furthermore, the rolled back PTS changes to it ARE still coming, just at a later date, and they give exactly what OP seems to want. The animations actually play out more so you can see them, and there is NO effect to DPS intended. I should point out you were still able to block cancel skills, just the skills still played. (You got the benefit of block while the skill was playing.)

You are partially right and partially wrong.
The animation cancel mechanic is fun, I like being able to dodge while in the middle of an attack.
The stupid thing is that I STILL DO THE STUPID ATTACK XD
I can do 3-5k damage with a light attack and it can be canceled immediately with a skill, meaining it is a 0.1 seconds attack, there's no way that you can create an animation that justifies a 5k free damage in such a small time.
It's undodgeable, you get it without seeing any animation at all so the stupid changes they made in PTS are equally useless since the bug remains (and that tells us they want to put some *** over to cover it rather than fixing that)

Animation canceling should go along with damage canceling, that would make a lot of sense and still keeping the game fun and reactive

The thing is that many of the skills in the game are advertised as instant cast and they do their damage instantly, but they don't have instant animations. If the devs were to make skills adhere to their animation times then they wouldn't be instant cast. They would presumably still do their damage instantly but then tie you into an animation, for what? Immersion? And you can't have damage canceling with skills that do their damage as soon as you hit the button.

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

What a bunch of nerds getting bent out of shape because I exaggerated numbers and provided a video with a limited sample.

Oh no, name calling!

Thornen wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't

If you can't spend 20 seconds to learn something that everyone else does and is considered a game mechanic then I hear minesweeper is a good solo game.

Found the witty 17-year-old in this thread.

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

What a bunch of nerds getting bent out of shape because I exaggerated numbers and provided a video with a limited sample.

Oh no, name calling!

There you go again focusing on one word instead of the overall point of my post, which is why I called you a nerd in the first place. But we're all nerds here so it's all good. No need to bring Nicki Minaj into this.

Nah buddy, I've addressed absolutely everything you've said, even finally got around to the ad-hominem since you're doing it so much. I've addressed

1. Your claim of doubling DPS
2. Your claim of fitting 3 animation-cancel cycles into 1 regular cycle
3. Your claim of exponentially-growing speed
4. Your claim that animation canceling is causing lag
5. Your claim that high-end players don't like animation canceling
6. How your one bit of "evidence" is in fact directly contradictory to your claims
7. Completely agreed with you regarding that animations should play out while not changing the pace or flow of combat
8. Anything I'm missing?

Really the only thing I haven't addressed is how you admitted to exaggerating numbers, so I guess I'll do that here: if the entirety of your "evidence" about animation canceling being bad is based on falsified data, then you don't have an actual point to make. You canceled your sub based on lies, minus the part we agree on, namely that animations get cut too early and it would be beneficial to re-time the animations themselves so they get cut at a part which still provides useful information to the target.

1. It can double your dps. It has doubled mine. Not consistently obviously because it's dependent on a variety of factors but the burst potential is superior than not canceling at all, not to mention the other advantages beyond damage.
2. Regardless of exactly how fast it is, it still is noticeably faster. It's the only thing that makes this game's combat not feel sluggish.
3. I meant that the longer a fight lasts, the more cancels you can fit in, which causes more damage, and kills the target faster, thus ending the fight faster. If that's the wrong use of "exponential" then please forgive me and get off my arse about it because arguing semantics is a waste of time.
4. Animation canceling certainly does cause lag when zergs can spam AoE's faster than intended thanks to canceling. How does increasing the rate that information is sent to the servers not increase lag?
5. The only reason there is to like animation canceling is because it's both an advantage and it makes the combat feel faster. Those are issues ZOS needs to address. Would high-end players really miss animation canceling if it was replaced with equally fast combat and damage? Or do they seriously think taking twenty seconds out of their life to learn how to cancel somehow makes them "leet"?
6. That wasn't even evidence. It was a limited example for the sake of having an example. The first mammoth died slower than the second one, which is just enough to show, despite all the other variables involved, that animation canceling is a gain. Only the belligerent would deny that at this point.
7. Well at least there's that because I care far more about how animation canceling looks and feels than the damage numbers behind it, no matter how exaggerated or understated they may be. There's always more damage to be found somewhere. But animation canceling makes the combat in this game look even more like excrement than it already does.

That's why I canceled my sub. Not because of some video on YouTube but because of my own experience with it. From my original post, "When I'm wrecking people with the aptly named Wrecking Blow and canceling the animation, my character looks like he is having a seizure. It looks stupid and it's not fun. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand how it looks. I can't stand how it feels." If you want to play number *** because you're a math nerd, have at it. All you've done is disproved a specific point about numbers while proving the general point that animation canceling is superior to not canceling. Maybe it's not exactly as impactful as I'm making it out to be. I wouldn't be the first human to exaggerate as an emotional expression. But canceling certainly isn't as negligible as you're suggesting. Downplay it all you want but virtually every experienced player knows that it's part of the meta and likely isn't going anywhere, which is ultimately why I pulled my money out of this game.

This is currently being worked and will probably be implemented next big patch.

They had it in PTS but said they are rolling back the system because they were un-happy with some aspects of it.

It might not be an exploit, but it's no part of the game mechanics. Stop defending it by saying it they put it in the game so its legit. They did not expect for something like this to happen and you can see it on the animation.

If you wanna tell me that this is the intended animation of wrecking blow (example of the most obvious), then you're not worth my time arguing and please spare yourself the time of replying.

Recremen wrote: »

So you're fine with people being able to use abilities exactly as fast as they are now, but with the animation completing more? If so, we're on the exact same page, but then why talk about doubling DPS, ability spam causing lag, etc? If they get rid of the jerky movements of animation canceling but keep the speed, then people's DPS is still going to be double that of people with bad timing and people are going to be able to spam abilities just as fast and cause lag. Really, my biggest issue is what appears to be an inconsistent message.

While I do feel that the current meta is far too bursty, that can always change. The Time-To-Kill ratio is something that will always need diligent monitoring in any game with PvP. My biggest issue with animation canceling is the visual aspect and how we're essentially stuck with it if we want to compete. The nature of competitiveness implies that we will seek out any advantage we can find and use it, thus making animation canceling feel necessary, especially if our opponents are doing it. I can live with the burst, I can live with the lag, but I can't abide with the jerky looking combat brought about by animation canceling. Action-oriented combat is supposed to be dependent on visual cues. Animation canceling circumvents that. Perhaps I haven't articulated my points methodically enough, but I feel like I've remained consistent on that particular issue as that's what really is the deal breaker for me.

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

So you're fine with people being able to use abilities exactly as fast as they are now, but with the animation completing more? If so, we're on the exact same page, but then why talk about doubling DPS, ability spam causing lag, etc? If they get rid of the jerky movements of animation canceling but keep the speed, then people's DPS is still going to be double that of people with bad timing and people are going to be able to spam abilities just as fast and cause lag. Really, my biggest issue is what appears to be an inconsistent message.

While I do feel that the current meta is far too bursty, that can always change. The Time-To-Kill ratio is something that will always need diligent monitoring in any game with PvP. My biggest issue with animation canceling is the visual aspect and how we're essentially stuck with it if we want to compete. The nature of competitiveness implies that we will seek out any advantage we can find and use it, thus making animation canceling feel necessary, especially if our opponents are doing it. I can live with the burst, I can live with the lag, but I can't abide with the jerky looking combat brought about by animation canceling. Action-oriented combat is supposed to be dependent on visual cues. Animation canceling circumvents that. Perhaps I haven't articulated my points methodically enough, but I feel like I've remained consistent on that particular issue as that's what really is the deal breaker for me.

Okay, I am completely in agreement with this. I mean, I don't think PvP is especially bursty (except maybe the beach ball -> radiant destruction combo right now) but I do agree that's something that needs to monitored, everything else is pretty spot on.

Fine - but give me an AUS-based mega server so I can get a better than 300 ping and hence rely on more reliable animation cancelling. Do it. Pls.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Animation cancelling gives more control over your character and allows for higher skill cap play. It absolutely should stay in, even if that means cleaning up animations a bit. Combat would be very stale if you only had the option to only perform one action at a time. OP, you're being overly dramatic.

Totally disagree makes this game feel like a button jammer, who can hit 5 buttons faster than everyone else. Looks like crap, feels like crap, and when the whole point is to see what your opponent is doing and countering it, it makes it impossible bc you dont even see it. As the devs said it was an un-intended problem and knowing ZOS they probably dont know how to fix it. I realize that its not going away so I chose to stay away from Cyrodil bc of it. There is plenty of stuff to do in this game without the laggy, animation canceling, buggy PvP. So have fun playing Mortal Combat ZOS style and I'll just keep to selling weapons and armor to those who can stand it.

nine9six wrote: »

Thornen wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't

If you can't spend 20 seconds to learn something that everyone else does and is considered a game mechanic then I hear minesweeper is a good solo game.

Found the witty 17-year-old in this thread.

Not sir he has a point. It's really not that difficult at all and actually does take a few secs to learn. Adapt to survive people.

Zoliru wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

It looks stupid and it's not fun. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand how it looks. I can't stand how it feels. I can't stand how much damage I lose if I don't do it. I can't stand how much animation canceling contributes to the PvP meta being so bursty. But most of all, I can't stand how ZOS would rather semi-endorse it than to admit it's a problem because they know the technical complications involved with fixing it is more than they're willing to deal with.

Amen

this alone kills the game for me....just no...

also people abusing it now with Macros.....

Over a year later you're gonna jump in huh?

Sometimes never is better than late