Exiting Feedback (Animation Canceling)

Brutusmax1mus · March 2016

If you can learn it, so can anyone.

Wolfen_Steiner · March 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

If you can learn it, so can anyone.

Like I said in my original post, there is no skill to it. It's not hard to learn. You can watch a video on YouTube and twenty seconds later, you've learned how to double your damage. Just because it's easy doesn't mean it should exist.

Liukke · March 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Normal game mechanics aren't cheats and exploits. Next thing you know moving out of AoE is going to be called an exploit. Just because it isn't in the tutorials doesn't mean it isn't intended or is unfair.

Normal? It certainly doesn't look normal. It wasn't intended. It's a byproduct of design decisions they made on the technical side of the game's combat. Animation canceling is an unintended result, not a design choice.

It's normal in that it's a standard part of MMO combat that allows two different attack action types. Same thing happens in WoW, for instance. You have basic attacks (I think they call it "white damage") and then you have your spells and abilities. Your spells and abilities are weaved in with the rest of your attacks and whatever animation has higher prioritization is what's played at any given time.

I don't know why you're saying it isn't intended, the game is specifically coded to allow for it. It's not some bug like the stamina regen while blocking in stealth, which was specifically against what both of those abilities are supposed to do for stam regen. It's a very typical function of what happens when your animations are longer than the cooldown between abilities and when you have two discrete sets of abilities with their own cooldowns. If they didn't want light/heavy attacks/blocking/dodging/etc. to cancel the tail end of other abilities, then they would have put them all on the same cooldown. They didn't. That's really the end of the story. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it's silly to support your dislike for it with statements that aren't true.

It's not about canceling "the tail".
If you know how to do it you can do 3 attack types only while raising your weapon :'D it's a broken system.
You can concatenate light attack+some skill+weapon switch and do it while you are still at the footstep of a light attack, then doing a medium/heavy attack and while you are bringing the sword on your back you do a skill, causing damage with your phantom heavy attack and the skill at the same time.
This is NOT intended, and they admitted it long time ago but now it's like "ehy ehm, since we cannot fix that, try to use it ad your advantage, though it has never been balanced in any way and can lead to any kind of bug abusing".

TipsyDrow · March 2016

Recremen wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

@Recremen

https://i.imgur.com/J92M812.png

Mrs. Folsom is a community manager, not one of the coders or combat designers. What she interprets as "not exactly intended" isn't a direct line from one of the developers. It could mean that they didn't expect that caliber of play to crop up from a game in the Elder Scrolls series (which has before now been a noncompetitive single-player experience), it could be that they weren't expecting people to have the resources to do it so frequently, it could be that the animations were supposed to play out fully but didn't, it could be any number of things. The only thing that's certain is that heavy/light attacks are on separate cooldowns from everything on the ability bar. I know people like to make fun of the devs, but that would be an oversight of considerable magnitude if it weren't intended.

The devs stated on an ESO live months ago that animation cancelling was NEVER intended. But they can't fix it so it's now a feature. It's flat out just one more broken mechanic in a game that is getting worse with every patch.

ColoursYouHave · March 2016

I have a hard time believing that animation canceling a light attack with Wrecking Blow is doubling your DPS. You mean to tell me your light attacks are doing as much damage as Wrecking Blow?

aLi3nZ · March 2016

Well I only just learned how to block cancel which is more efficient then bash cancelling. It is possible to block cancel crushing shock force pulse consistently so that the effect is not even visible but the damage is done. Crazy. It's a massive advantage as any skill/buff can be canceled and you can cut down 1-2seconds time applying 3 buffs that someone who doesn't ani cancel can't do. Then of course there is more dps it's pretty much an unfair advantage against players or can't or don't know how to do it.

Wolfen_Steiner · March 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

I have a hard time believing that animation canceling a light attack with Wrecking Blow is doubling your DPS. You mean to tell me your light attacks are doing as much damage as Wrecking Blow?

Wrecking Blow buffs the damage of your next attack by 20%. That's just the normal, intended effect. You want to cycle Wrecking Blow with another attack. Even if animation canceling wasn't a thing, this would still be the case. Canceling Wrecking Blow's animation speeds up this cycle exponentially. You can fit three cycles of canceled WB+LA in the time it takes to do one cycle without canceling the animation. That's how absurd it is.

Liukke · March 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

I have a hard time believing that animation canceling a light attack with Wrecking Blow is doubling your DPS. You mean to tell me your light attacks are doing as much damage as Wrecking Blow?

It is dps wise, since the light attack is istantaneous and wb still needs a second or less before it can be canceled.
If you don't make any attack between wrecking blows you'll see your dps go down just like the credibility of this game

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

Some info I found on google to illustrate that this concept has been around for a while.

http://www.giantbomb.com/animation-canceling/3015-1568/

I always thought eso had a brawler/fighter vibe to the combat and this is what I enjoy about the pvp.

Edit: some games that embrace animation canceling include street fighter iv, LoL, dota 2 and cs 1.6/source.

Thornen · March 2016

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't

If you can't spend 20 seconds to learn something that everyone else does and is considered a game mechanic then I hear minesweeper is a good solo game.

LordTareq · March 2016

Animation cancelling is a disgrace. Can't believe its still in the game.

Valen_Byte · March 2016

Couldn't agree more. I switched from a SamDK to a MagDK for this reason months ago. I just hate it to the point that I went with the crappy version of my favorite class just so I don't have to feel cheap. Ya I feel a bit gimped now but when I get a kill, I know it was me that got it, not a cheap tactic.

Shader_Shibes · March 2016

It's the most simplest of things to do. I didn't learn it, I just stumbled upon it a couple of months after release.

It's definitely not an intentional mechanic, just a quirk of the system, and it hasn't been removed because zos have no clue how to.

Liukke · March 2016

Thornen wrote: »

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't

If you can't spend 20 seconds to learn something that everyone else does and is considered a game mechanic then I hear minesweeper is a good solo game.

It's not a game mechanic, it's a bug and that means it's not balanced at all, please know something when you talk about that

.
Many skills just do more damage but since you cannot cancel them properly every magicka class just sticks to medium attack+force pulse to take out maximum dps and stamina class do "free damage" that cannot be seen. Sounds really cheap.
As long as this bug exists there will be no balance and no efficient build variety at all

GeorgeBlack · March 2016

Weak

dem0n1k · March 2016

I used to be in favour of animation cancelling because I figured it was just a mechanic that I needed to learn. However, I have subsequently found that it is not possible to reliably animation cancel with my international ping. It is hard enough to compete with players that have a local ping to the server... with animation cancelling it becomes extra frustrating because there is nothing I can do about it.. except hope in futility for a local megaserver... & I know that's not going to happen.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

.

GeorgeBlack · March 2016

Simply put the animation canceling ruins the sensation that u are in combat with an enemy. Those in favour of it have no arguments for it.
If u want to increase your output so much just face another person holding calculators in ur hands and add numbers up. Highest score wins. Happy days.

Now those that are comfortable with their current output and dont want to lose it in case of zos fixing this prob heres what... lower pve stats to even out the odds once u lose your light attack output

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Simply put the animation canceling ruins the sensation that u are in combat with an enemy. Those in favour of it have no arguments for it.
If u want to increase your output so much just face another person holding calculators in ur hands and add numbers up. Highest score wins. Happy days.

Now those that are comfortable with their current output and dont want to lose it in case of zos fixing this prob heres what... lower pve stats to even out the odds once u lose your light attack output

I'm in favour of it and I can give reasons; it speeds up combat, adds fluidity, gives the sensation you're stringing combos together, allows you to change your mind without repercussions, and it's not the only competetive game to allow it. Animation canceling is commonplace in fighting games such as streetfighter, part of the meta in mobas such as lol and dota and has even appeared in fps games such as counter-strike. Ever seen an awper switch weapon straight after a shot? Animation canceling, it's everywhere and it's good for eso.

zerosingularity · March 2016

Read about half the thread, just wanna chime in here.

Animation Cancelling is fine, both weaving and block cancelling. (It easy to get good at it, getting fantastic at it is NOT required.) It is needed to allow proper reactions in combat, especially with channels. (Don't wanna be unable to dodge that Wrecking Blow while channeling Jesus Beam.)

Furthermore, the rolled back PTS changes to it ARE still coming, just at a later date, and they give exactly what OP seems to want. The animations actually play out more so you can see them, and there is NO effect to DPS intended. I should point out you were still able to block cancel skills, just the skills still played. (You got the benefit of block while the skill was playing.)

Recremen · March 2016

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

I have a hard time believing that animation canceling a light attack with Wrecking Blow is doubling your DPS. You mean to tell me your light attacks are doing as much damage as Wrecking Blow?

Wrecking Blow buffs the damage of your next attack by 20%. That's just the normal, intended effect. You want to cycle Wrecking Blow with another attack. Even if animation canceling wasn't a thing, this would still be the case. Canceling Wrecking Blow's animation speeds up this cycle exponentially. You can fit three cycles of canceled WB+LA in the time it takes to do one cycle without canceling the animation. That's how absurd it is.

Man, I'd love to see you and an anti-Wrecking Blow enthusiast go at it, you'd both have loads of fun saying things that are demonstrably false.

Recremen · March 2016

zerosingularity wrote: »

Read about half the thread, just wanna chime in here.

Animation Cancelling is fine, both weaving and block cancelling. (It easy to get good at it, getting fantastic at it is NOT required.) It is needed to allow proper reactions in combat, especially with channels. (Don't wanna be unable to dodge that Wrecking Blow while channeling Jesus Beam.)

Furthermore, the rolled back PTS changes to it ARE still coming, just at a later date, and they give exactly what OP seems to want. The animations actually play out more so you can see them, and there is NO effect to DPS intended. I should point out you were still able to block cancel skills, just the skills still played. (You got the benefit of block while the skill was playing.)

I do hope that's the case, it sounds like the best of all worlds. I want combat to be fast and responsive, I don't want to wait the entire 3 seconds to return to idle pose before I can launch another attack/block/ability, but I also like seeing the animations complete.

ShadowHvo · March 2016

The game will never be balanced as long as animation canceling remains in the game.

Not only does it go directly against ESO's advertised, and designed gameplay, it also makes competetive play completely impossible for anyone with the slightest lag or delay.

I agree with you completely OP, and I too really hope that Zenimax soon, or at least one day will fix animation canceling completely, as they planned to from the start, before they suddenly turned around and said "Oh its totally intended" despite the fact everyone knows it is not, and they themselves even said so.

One day.. hopefully.

Wolfen_Steiner · March 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Man, I'd love to see you and an anti-Wrecking Blow enthusiast go at it, you'd both have loads of fun saying things that are demonstrably false.

I'm actually pro-Wrecking Blow. I'm just anti-animation canceling. And demonstrably false? Do you even Wrecking Blow, bro? I straight up wreck people in PvP using the WB+LA cycle with animation canceling. The burst is insane. You're either ignorant to how it is or you don't want it to change.

technohic · March 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Simply put the animation canceling ruins the sensation that u are in combat with an enemy. Those in favour of it have no arguments for it.
If u want to increase your output so much just face another person holding calculators in ur hands and add numbers up. Highest score wins. Happy days.

Now those that are comfortable with their current output and dont want to lose it in case of zos fixing this prob heres what... lower pve stats to even out the odds once u lose your light attack output

I'm in favour of it and I can give reasons; it speeds up combat, adds fluidity, gives the sensation you're stringing combos together, allows you to change your mind without repercussions, and it's not the only competetive game to allow it. Animation canceling is commonplace in fighting games such as streetfighter, part of the meta in mobas such as lol and dota and has even appeared in fps games such as counter-strike. Ever seen an awper switch weapon straight after a shot? Animation canceling, it's everywhere and it's good for eso.

Thats great in games where combos are a real though out thing, like BDO as an MMO example to go along with fighting games; but its always felt out of place here to me.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

technohic wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Simply put the animation canceling ruins the sensation that u are in combat with an enemy. Those in favour of it have no arguments for it.
If u want to increase your output so much just face another person holding calculators in ur hands and add numbers up. Highest score wins. Happy days.

Now those that are comfortable with their current output and dont want to lose it in case of zos fixing this prob heres what... lower pve stats to even out the odds once u lose your light attack output

I'm in favour of it and I can give reasons; it speeds up combat, adds fluidity, gives the sensation you're stringing combos together, allows you to change your mind without repercussions, and it's not the only competetive game to allow it. Animation canceling is commonplace in fighting games such as streetfighter, part of the meta in mobas such as lol and dota and has even appeared in fps games such as counter-strike. Ever seen an awper switch weapon straight after a shot? Animation canceling, it's everywhere and it's good for eso.

Thats great in games where combos are a real though out thing, like BDO as an MMO example to go along with fighting games; but its always felt out of place here to me.

Not so in lol though, in that game animation canceling is simply to give you a better chance of sustaining dps. Dota 2 has it too, giving you a better chance at last-hitting, and in both games it is considered an advanced combat technique. It is described as tricky to learn but easy to do with practice and muscle memory. Sound familiar?

kevlarto_ESO · March 2016

I understand op, I think that you should be able to cancel an animation but not profit from the damage, if I cancel a hit it should do no damage, but allow me to move to the next special, this would do away with the macro spammers and there would be no need to cancel an animation unless you needed to block or something, the combat would still be fluid like it is now, you just don't get to hit someone 5 times with wb in 1.5 seconds by switching your tool bars, or what ever, if ZOS plans on keeping this as a part of the game it should be in the starter tutorial, just like learning about w,a,s,d keys.

Recremen · March 2016

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Man, I'd love to see you and an anti-Wrecking Blow enthusiast go at it, you'd both have loads of fun saying things that are demonstrably false.

I'm actually pro-Wrecking Blow. I'm just anti-animation canceling. And demonstrably false? Do you even Wrecking Blow, bro? I straight up wreck people in PvP using the WB+LA cycle with animation canceling. The burst is insane. You're either ignorant to how it is or you don't want it to change.

Demonstrably false as in you can't

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

fit three cycles of canceled WB+LA in the time it takes to do one cycle without canceling the animation. That's how absurd it is.

Absolutely not possible, even if you wait for Wrecking Blow to go all the way back to idle animation. Also demonstrably false in that animation canceling does not

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

speeds up this cycle exponentially.

It turns out that I never mentioned anything about Wrecking Blow and light attack working well together for burst DPS and you're just arguing with a statement you completely made up.

Wolfen_Steiner · March 2016

Here you go, since you seem to have your head buried in the sand regarding the game you're playing:

https://youtu.be/QIz6J_c9GQc

Recremen · March 2016

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Here you go, since you seem to have your head buried in the sand regarding the game you're playing:

https://youtu.be/QIz6J_c9GQc

Recremen wrote: »

It turns out that I never mentioned anything about Wrecking Blow and light attack working well together for burst DPS and you're just arguing with a statement you completely made up.

@Wolfen_Steiner

I have bolded the part that you seem to have missed.

I mean, I probably should have bolded the whole thing in that case, but you seem really focused on this WB -> Light Attack thing that I never mentioned instead of backtracking on your misleading and completely untrue claims about animation canceling.