Exiting Feedback (Animation Canceling)

Wolfen_Steiner

I have not backtracked or made any misleading and untrue comments in this thread. I provided that video as support to my argument, as it comes from one of the more respected members of the community who not only highlights the differences in damage between canceling and not canceling Wrecking Blow but goes on to say how terrible it is. If you want to be a tool that supports animation canceling because it somehow makes you feel like a special snowflake, then fine.. be a tool.

Meanwhile there are countless high-end players all admitting this is a problem with the fundamental design of the game that you seem content with ignoring. That says more about you than it does me. And besides, you seem to think my comments about WB+LA were directed at you. They were actually directed at the person who didn't understand how animation canceling allows for a double DPS increase. That's another reason why I posted the video. ColoursYouHave was having trouble understanding. Both myself and Liukke explained it.

Should I 'bold' a part of the argument for you or will you continue to be obtuse? I have no qualms either way. You can't just say everything I'm talking about is untrue without providing evidence to support your argument, especially after I've provided evidence on my end. You actually have to provide more than anecdotal evidence. This isn't a Trump rally.

ArgoCye

I wouldn't mind animation cancelling so much - but if you play with a latency of around 300+ (anyone from Australia, pretty much) then animation cancelling is a little hit and miss - no pun intended. You'll get a couple off, then there's a weird pause where nothing seems to happen ... and if you manage to still be alive, you will get a few more off. But you never actually now how many, which is tricky. I don't think ZoS could 'fix' it even if they wanted to, but it would make things more fair.

s7732425ub17_ESO

I disagree with everything the OP says.

I am extremely pro-animation cancelling. I'm super glad ZOS isn't going to remove it.

Recremen

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

I have not backtracked or made any misleading and untrue comments in this thread. I provided that video as support to my argument, as it comes from one of the more respected members of the community who not only highlights the differences in damage between canceling and not canceling Wrecking Blow but goes on to say how terrible it is. If you want to be a tool that supports animation canceling because it somehow makes you feel like a special snowflake, then fine.. be a tool.

Meanwhile there are countless high-end players all admitting this is a problem with the fundamental design of the game that you seem content with ignoring. That says more about you than it does me. And besides, you seem to think my comments about WB+LA were directed at you. They were actually directed at the person who didn't understand how animation canceling allows for a double DPS increase. That's another reason why I posted the video. ColoursYouHave was having trouble understanding. Both myself and Liukke explained it.

Should I 'bold' a part of the argument for you or will you continue to be obtuse? I have no qualms either way. You can't just say everything I'm talking about is untrue without providing evidence to support your argument, especially after I've provided evidence on my end. You actually have to provide more than anecdotal evidence. This isn't a Trump rally.

I didn't say that you have bactracked, I implied that you should backtrack, since you have indeed said misleading and untrue things. Let's break it down.

• You said that you can do 3 Wrecking Blow -> Light Attack combos in the time it takes to do a single uncanceled Wrecking Blow. This is incorrect, the very video you posted shows it. If you need to break out a stopwatch, then go for it. You can even count the seconds yourself on the video if you'd prefer. He does several perfectly-canceled cycles starting at 25 seconds into the video. Later, at 1:02, he lets a Wrecking Blow finish the animation all the way to when it returns to the idle pose. The 3 animation canceled cycles take about 5 seconds, the one full Wrecking Blow takes about 1.5 seconds. So no, you can't get three cycles of animation cancel in before one cycle of non-animation canceled WB.
• Same goes for your claim about animation canceling speeding up the cycle exponentially. That's just bad math. Do you know what exponential increases look like?

• Here is a graph of 2 to the power of x. Let x be the number of non-animation cancel cycles and y be the number of animation cancel cycles completed in the same time as the number of x cycles. Under this model for the first regular cycle you can fit 2 animation-canceled cycles. After 2 regular cycles you get 4 AC cycles. But after 3 regular you get 8 AC. After 4 regular you'd get 16 AC. This trend continues. Obviously this is not an accurate model of what animation canceling does, otherwise your character's movements would pass the speed of light and be unrenderable in short order.
• Alcast does not say anything about how terrible animation canceling is. Go watch the video again, your listening comprehension has failed you. He is, at the worst, critical about how it is difficult to see what you are getting hit by when someone animation cancels. That's it.
• There are not "countless" high-end players claiming it is a problem, you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen. High end players are more concerned about real problems like lag, not this phantom menace.
• Your comments about animation canceling where you've quoted me are definitely directed at me, otherwise you wouldn't have quoted me. Yes, you have also conversed with other people about animation canceling in this thread, but you have definitely made comments directed at me.
• You haven't provided any evidence supported your statements that I'm drawing attention to. Even the claim of doubling your DPS is flimsy since Alcast says himself in the video that some of it might have been from extra crits. The video you posted in fact directly contradicts most of your statements, as pointed out above.

Whatzituyah

I would say its more like (X*2)Y=Z

X being the non animation cancel damage
Y being the amount of seconds past
2 for it doubling your output
Than Z is the amount of damage overall

I forgot simple maths is it () or [] you do first.

Completely accurate model not accounting for human error.

KingYogi415

It's the meta now. Just deal with it!

Steel_Brightblade

I'm against animation canceling for the simple fact that it looks crap but that point aside, those saying it had not been balanced in any way are wrong.
I challenge you to find a single person that has beaten veteran maelstrom arena without animation canceling. They have made a game difficulty based on the damage output only achievable by using the exploit/glitch/bug/skill/whatever you want to call it.

Minalan

Get rid of animation canceling, it's silly what people are doing with it in PVP. The game needs More strategy and less twitch.

Malmai

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

I just canceled my ESO Plus membership and wasn't given the option to directly tell ZOS why, so I'm doing it here. There is only one thing that ruins this great game for me and it's animation canceling. As an example, I play a stamina build using a 2hander and canceling Wrecking Blow's animation with a light attack virtually doubles my DPS. This is incredibly broken in my opinion. Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't and it can be difficult for targeted players to know when the hit is coming, even those who are experienced. Latency is a huge influence on the success of animation canceling in both giving and receiving damage and it turns PvP into an unpredictable roulette. Did the lag kill you or was it the hit you never saw land? Often it's both. There is no skill involved with any of this. Did you watch a short video on YouTube? Does your latency never go above 200ms even in Cyrodiil? Congratulations! You get to do double the DPS.

And this is coming from one of the people doing double. I want that to be clear. I'm not crying because somebody spammed Wrecking Blow on me. I'm the one doing the spamming and I'm saying this is a problem. And it's not just Wrecking Blow. I'm just using it as one of the more blatant examples. Not only is it incredibly game breaking both from a technical perspective and a balance perspective, but it also makes the game's combat visually disappointing. When I'm wrecking people with the aptly named Wrecking Blow and canceling the animation, my character looks like he is having a seizure. It looks stupid and it's not fun. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand how it looks. I can't stand how it feels. I can't stand how much damage I lose if I don't do it. I can't stand how much animation canceling contributes to the PvP meta being so bursty. But most of all, I can't stand how ZOS would rather semi-endorse it than to admit it's a problem because they know the technical complications involved with fixing it is more than they're willing to deal with. So I'm doing the only thing I know I can do and that's pulling my money out. Now you know why. Thanks.

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

I just canceled my ESO Plus membership and wasn't given the option to directly tell ZOS why, so I'm doing it here. There is only one thing that ruins this great game for me and it's animation canceling. As an example, I play a stamina build using a 2hander and canceling Wrecking Blow's animation with a light attack virtually doubles my DPS. This is incredibly broken in my opinion. Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't and it can be difficult for targeted players to know when the hit is coming, even those who are experienced. Latency is a huge influence on the success of animation canceling in both giving and receiving damage and it turns PvP into an unpredictable roulette. Did the lag kill you or was it the hit you never saw land? Often it's both. There is no skill involved with any of this. Did you watch a short video on YouTube? Does your latency never go above 200ms even in Cyrodiil? Congratulations! You get to do double the DPS.

And this is coming from one of the people doing double. I want that to be clear. I'm not crying because somebody spammed Wrecking Blow on me. I'm the one doing the spamming and I'm saying this is a problem. And it's not just Wrecking Blow. I'm just using it as one of the more blatant examples. Not only is it incredibly game breaking both from a technical perspective and a balance perspective, but it also makes the game's combat visually disappointing. When I'm wrecking people with the aptly named Wrecking Blow and canceling the animation, my character looks like he is having a seizure. It looks stupid and it's not fun. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand how it looks. I can't stand how it feels. I can't stand how much damage I lose if I don't do it. I can't stand how much animation canceling contributes to the PvP meta being so bursty. But most of all, I can't stand how ZOS would rather semi-endorse it than to admit it's a problem because they know the technical complications involved with fixing it is more than they're willing to deal with. So I'm doing the only thing I know I can do and that's pulling my money out. Now you know why. Thanks.

To be honest that is a thing since way back before closed beta. Also i have to say i learned it pretty quick but i found it somewhat game-breaking since it offers some classes insane benefits. It needs to go it just brings trouble.

Wolfen_Steiner

Recremen wrote: »

*snipped because spam*

According to your math, if 3 canceled cycles takes 5 seconds and 1 non-canceled takes 1.5 seconds, then the 3 canceled cycles is 0.5 seconds faster than 1 non-canceled cycle, which proves my original point. As far as "exponentially" goes, I meant that the more you cancel the animation while spamming the ability, the more your DPS will go up over time, thus the exponential increase compared to not canceling at all. And Alcast's comments about the visual problems is exactly what I have a problem with and why I referenced it in the first place. Thanks again.

I've quoted you in this thread, but I've also responded directly to a person who didn't understand how WB+LA with canceling could beat not canceling so I and others explained how that's possible. You seemed to think that was directed at you even though I never quoted you in that post. The video I posted specifically shows how you can go from 10k to 20k DPS. Alcast minces no words about that. If it's just from lucky crits or not doesn't matter because in the end it all evens out. The point is that the burst potential is much higher if you cancel the animation. He wasn't even taking into consideration the potential for all the other possible procs, boosts, etc. The theoretically increase could be even higher.

And the lag you say high-end players are more concerned with? Don't you realize how much animation canceling not only contributes to that problem but also makes it worse? There are some serious coding issues going on with this game. The fact that our latency goes up in AvA at all is a problem. In other RvR games, your FPS drops but your latency won't change. In ESO, both suffer. There's some cross-over with these issues. But I digress.

The fact of the matter is that animation canceling is an unintended consequence of shoddy game development and it is clearly a much more impacting issue than you're willing to admit. Maybe you like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, but you're taking the side of a fundamentally flawed, unintended aspect of gameplay, and defending it like you couldn't live without it. Arguing is fun; admitting you're wrong isn't. I get it. But meanwhile, the quality of PvP in this game gets worse with every update and apologists like you are getting in the way of it ever improving by giving the developers a free pass to keep failing in fundamental aspects of combat. Have fun with that.

WillhelmBlack

Don't mind being able to block cancel my buffs/heals, its the invisible attacks that send me sliding around the floor that displease me.

What really p***ed me off is in the recent PTS, ZOS decided those were OK but block cancelling was not OK. In other words, high damage builds could still animation cancel so their DPS was untouched but builds/classes that required animation cancelling just to stay alive weren't allowed to.

I'm glad they left it untouched because I would have quit. If they want to remove AC from the game, they need to entirely.

TheHsN

Iam very very very agreed with the guy...I hate that i dont even want to make it but i need that i should make it if i vanna get the kill.. when ı do it i hate the to dont see what even im doing... ...

so after this Month ( march ) im going to cancel my ESO PLUS MEMBERSHIP too... if yhet dont give us what we want we dont give them what they want:)...

tnx...

Steel_Brightblade

There was a poll on this a couple of months ago, I was interested to see it was about 55% against animation canceling and 45% for. If it stayed that way (I only followed the thread for a short time) then I can't see zos fixing it as I'm sure it would take a lot of work, would only please an additional 10% but totally alienate 45% of the community. Most won't leave due to AC regardless of how much we dislike it since we're mostly still here but a lot might if they fixed it.

Selstad

Can't say from a PvP perspective because I don't PvP, but from a PvE perspective I don't see the issue. I've always "learned" the ways to get as much as possible out from my damage dealing, be it using the game's mechanics to my advantage or other means, I always aim to get as much out from my DPS.

And the game in PvE seems to be developed around that concept, and you need some strong and good DPS in order to take down certain enemies, especially those that become an endurance run.

So I don't mind animation cancelling. I think it's fine as it is, and a "clever" use of game mechanics.

Wolfen_Steiner

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

There was a poll on this a couple of months ago, I was interested to see it was about 55% against animation canceling and 45% for. If it stayed that way (I only followed the thread for a short time) then I can't see zos fixing it as I'm sure it would take a lot of work, would only please an additional 10% but totally alienate 45% of the community. Most won't leave due to AC regardless of how much we dislike it since we're mostly still here but a lot might if they fixed it.

I honestly don't believe people will leave if they fixed animation canceling. I think people only like it because it yields results. The people not doing it in PvP are probably inexperienced enough to be free kills anyway so it's not like knowing how to cancel animations distinguishes a player above the rest. It distinguishes you above a minority. Most of us worth our salt in Cyrodiil have learned to live with animation canceling being a thing and we've adapted accordingly. I know I have. Those of us willing to leave the game because ZOS fixed it after years isn't any bigger than those of us willing to leave because they haven't fixed it yet. But I hope ZOS cares more about the health of the game in the long run to fix it regardless because it's that fundamental of a flaw.

Selstad wrote: »

Can't say from a PvP perspective because I don't PvP, but from a PvE perspective I don't see the issue. I've always "learned" the ways to get as much as possible out from my damage dealing, be it using the game's mechanics to my advantage or other means, I always aim to get as much out from my DPS.

And the game in PvE seems to be developed around that concept, and you need some strong and good DPS in order to take down certain enemies, especially those that become an endurance run.

So I don't mind animation cancelling. I think it's fine as it is, and a "clever" use of game mechanics.

Even in PvE, the damage difference is huge, however I feel like the impact is not as severe as it is in PvP simply because PvE boss AI is far more scripted. Whether I cancel an animation or not, either way the boss is going to drop his red circles and/or summon adds. However, that boss will die significantly faster if I do cancel animations. That DPS increase is much more noticeable in hardcore PvE content, I'm sure. For casual PvE, it's not as important. However in PvP, it's far more noticeably broken at any level. Maybe it was clever over two years ago when we first discovered it in beta, but by now it has become this sore thumb that reflects poorly on a game's combat that's supposed to be about responding to visual cues.

qrichou

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I disagree with everything the OP says.

I am extremely pro-animation cancelling. I'm super glad ZOS isn't going to remove it.

Why ?

Menelaos

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Whether I cancel an animation or not, either way the boss is going to drop his red circles and/or summon adds. However, that boss will die significantly faster if I do cancel animations. That DPS increase is much more noticeable in hardcore PvE content, I'm sure.

There are folks out there that criticize Trial bosses to be pure DPS races where the sh** hits the fan if you haven't killed the boss in a given amount of time and where he then goes in enrage or makes everything in the room go boom. It's an outright stupid mechanic imho but you get what you deserve I guess. Anyway I have the inkling that you definitely need to animation-cancel stuff in order to meet the "shadow DPS" needed to meet that time threshold. Raid guilds actively base their group setup and the peoples rotation around this. Raid leads argue that animation cancelling is so deeply embedded in high end PvE these days that it would be hard to abolish it without turning the tides of favour against their raid groups.

So yes, I think it's an issuw but one all have agreed to live with, both ZOS and the Raiders.

NoMoreChillies

not a fan of animation cancelling

Think of the poor artist who drew the animation. His work never gets seen, instead replaced by a twitching character about to have a seizure.

As for trials and high end PVE, this could be a simple fix of lowering the boss HP

ToRelax

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

*snipped because spam*

According to your math, if 3 canceled cycles takes 5 seconds and 1 non-canceled takes 1.5 seconds, then the 3 canceled cycles is 0.5 seconds faster than 1 non-canceled cycle, which proves my original point. As far as "exponentially" goes, I meant that the more you cancel the animation while spamming the ability, the more your DPS will go up over time, thus the exponential increase compared to not canceling at all. And Alcast's comments about the visual problems is exactly what I have a problem with and why I referenced it in the first place. Thanks again.

I've quoted you in this thread, but I've also responded directly to a person who didn't understand how WB+LA with canceling could beat not canceling so I and others explained how that's possible. You seemed to think that was directed at you even though I never quoted you in that post. The video I posted specifically shows how you can go from 10k to 20k DPS. Alcast minces no words about that. If it's just from lucky crits or not doesn't matter because in the end it all evens out. The point is that the burst potential is much higher if you cancel the animation. He wasn't even taking into consideration the potential for all the other possible procs, boosts, etc. The theoretically increase could be even higher.

And the lag you say high-end players are more concerned with? Don't you realize how much animation canceling not only contributes to that problem but also makes it worse? There are some serious coding issues going on with this game. The fact that our latency goes up in AvA at all is a problem. In other RvR games, your FPS drops but your latency won't change. In ESO, both suffer. There's some cross-over with these issues. But I digress.

The fact of the matter is that animation canceling is an unintended consequence of shoddy game development and it is clearly a much more impacting issue than you're willing to admit. Maybe you like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, but you're taking the side of a fundamentally flawed, unintended aspect of gameplay, and defending it like you couldn't live without it. Arguing is fun; admitting you're wrong isn't. I get it. But meanwhile, the quality of PvP in this game gets worse with every update and apologists like you are getting in the way of it ever improving by giving the developers a free pass to keep failing in fundamental aspects of combat. Have fun with that.

1.)
Three perfectly cancelled cycles might take less time because of the time it takes to go into idle and/or GCD.
You didn't mean exponentional but proportional, wich just tells us the damage is actually higher per time. Thank you so much.
Alcast referred to a bug specific to Uppercut and few other casttime skills like Crystal Shard. At no point in that video did he state he was against animation cacelling staying in the game or had any problem with it. If you want to know his opinion, just tag him.

2.)
The damage was lower on the second mammoth because he A ) weaved more slowly and B ) was a lot less lucky with his crits, that plus your deliberate attempt at making the gap seem larger than it is by stating the second time he got 10k DPS instead of the actual nearly 12k, makes the difference look a lot less spectacular already. "It all evens out"? You can clearly see everything I just wrote in the video, those mammoths die fast, so luck with the crits plays a huge role, especially with added crit damage wich I am sure he had quite some of.

3.)
I can guarantee you, most "high-end players" don't have a problem with animation cancelling. Also, yeah no, in other games lag often is a problem with large scale PvP as well.

4.) Some ways to animation cancel that once worked and not anymore are actually a part of what makes me less interested in the game when it happens, as are animation/GCD bugs that can or can't be exploited (invisible wrecking blows, stuck in charges, charging wrecking blows in charges, hiding heavy attacks in wrecking blows, health desyncs with wrecking blows, etc.). In short, many things are bad or don't work correctly, some may get even worse, but removing animation cancelling would be pretty much the worst thing ZOS could do. I'd even live with AoE caps over that.

Kublakan

It's a crap. A big piece of crap. Looks like crap, feel like crap. It looks like old SWG combat in a very beautiful game. It doesnt fit, heck my youngest son playing minecraft have combat looking better.

It breaks the immersion. Its so crappy, I dont even use it anymore, beside I dont need. I stopped pvp because of it, not even the lag bothers me that much.

They came up saying it's a feature of this game and it was a mistake.

kuro-dono

they just should make it> dmg, effect happens only at the end of skill, easy solution to make these cancers of game to go play bdo.

skavenapsb16_ESO

I too will prefer Animation Canceling gone, it just ruins the game with this added no sense.

Asmael

The OP is lying on the numbers to get his point across.

The second you said that AC doubled your damage, I knew you did, in fact, knew nothing of AC. The numbers you mentioned were (conveniently) changed to exaggerate the real ones, and on top of that, you made sure to use two biased "tests".

1) Rally up at all times, perfect AC
2) Rally expires mid-fight, slower AC

That, and the fact that the fights are way too short to draw any conclusion.

Because you are a cheater, I'll show people what happens for ACTUAL DPS tests:





15% for PERFECT animation cancelling, AND if you got the appropriate weapon (won't be as high if you use stam weapons as a magicka build).

I'm not saying that I'm for or against AC. What I'm saying is that you lied, and for this sole reason, this thread should be taken down.

Kublakan

Not to mention it opens up the way for macro user big time. So blatantly, it could be written in their advertizing pub.

If you are in ZOS shoes, you got to ask yourself these questions.

How many people play the game or are attracted to this game because of animation canceling? How much this feature contribute to the success of this game? No need analysis to know the number isnt that high.

How many people stop playing the game or are reluctant to play the game because of animation canceling? How much this feature reduces the success of this game? I bet the numbers are much higher this side of the fence.

The day ZOS will realize animation canceling are hurting badly their success and $$$, they will put the effort to rectify their choice. After all, it's also about their reputation in the gaming club. Does this feature really improve the game reputation? Or the opposite?

rfennell_ESO

Recremen wrote: »

I use macros, don't get me nerfed bro

Gotcha, Maybe I could include a useless graph to demonstrate it. It would have to have a background image of an angry guy and macro software.

rfennell_ESO

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

I just canceled my ESO Plus membership and wasn't given the option to directly tell ZOS why, so I'm doing it here. There is only one thing that ruins this great game for me and it's animation canceling. As an example, I play a stamina build using a 2hander and canceling Wrecking Blow's animation with a light attack virtually doubles my DPS. This is incredibly broken in my opinion. Those of us who took the twenty seconds to learn how to cancel animations are doing twice as much damage as those that don't and it can be difficult for targeted players to know when the hit is coming, even those who are experienced. Latency is a huge influence on the success of animation canceling in both giving and receiving damage and it turns PvP into an unpredictable roulette. Did the lag kill you or was it the hit you never saw land? Often it's both. There is no skill involved with any of this. Did you watch a short video on YouTube? Does your latency never go above 200ms even in Cyrodiil? Congratulations! You get to do double the DPS.

And this is coming from one of the people doing double. I want that to be clear. I'm not crying because somebody spammed Wrecking Blow on me. I'm the one doing the spamming and I'm saying this is a problem. And it's not just Wrecking Blow. I'm just using it as one of the more blatant examples. Not only is it incredibly game breaking both from a technical perspective and a balance perspective, but it also makes the game's combat visually disappointing. When I'm wrecking people with the aptly named Wrecking Blow and canceling the animation, my character looks like he is having a seizure. It looks stupid and it's not fun. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand how it looks. I can't stand how it feels. I can't stand how much damage I lose if I don't do it. I can't stand how much animation canceling contributes to the PvP meta being so bursty. But most of all, I can't stand how ZOS would rather semi-endorse it than to admit it's a problem because they know the technical complications involved with fixing it is more than they're willing to deal with. So I'm doing the only thing I know I can do and that's pulling my money out. Now you know why. Thanks.

As for the context of the thread (which is this):

It's obviously a bit of exaggeration on your part as to how much more damage it can do. Thing is, that spammed wrecking blows (without the light attack animation cancel) chain together at very fast speeds. Add a macro to automate and it's nearly as fast as you can use instant cast abilities (which can't be spammed).

In pve anyone can test the sheer difference in damage for themselves if they have doubts over it. Something like a rotation of light attack->crushing shock(or it's morph) will work fine, and it's simple to learn to do. The difference in dps will be closer to the OP's claims than his detractors "counter evidence"

The real problem with animation cancelling relates to how it benefits some and not others. If you have lag, it helps you little...if you are ranged, it's really not helping nearly as much as a melee spamming light attack, ability, bash (all obviously being done manually, because even though every single person with a decent mouse (or even with a bad mouse and software that if I mention here will be deleted by mods) has access to).

I've seen total noobs that suck at pvp turn into "good" players overnight. Literally, guys who were a joke... easy kills, you knew couldn't do a thing to you... all of the sudden you see them and it's a barrage of attacks on you and the former baddie is busy whispering "u got rekt" followed by "git gud" and then saying something "salt" related. I've seen it happen over and over in this game... from bad and stupid, to nearly OP in the matter of days. Did they learn to play? Did they pay Sypher for training (lolz)? Nah, they learn the art of the macroing of animation cancelling from someone and now they "got gud". It's that big of a difference...

My hope is that the devs shelved their animation cancelling fix to appropriately address the issue and break macro functonality (for the most part). There is no other reason than that for why they started down that avenue or shelved it to refine it, after all. It's the biggest glaring issue in the game...

Recremen

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

*snipped because spam*

According to your math, if 3 canceled cycles takes 5 seconds and 1 non-canceled takes 1.5 seconds, then the 3 canceled cycles is 0.5 seconds faster than 1 non-canceled cycle, which proves my original point. As far as "exponentially" goes, I meant that the more you cancel the animation while spamming the ability, the more your DPS will go up over time, thus the exponential increase compared to not canceling at all. And Alcast's comments about the visual problems is exactly what I have a problem with and why I referenced it in the first place. Thanks again.

I've quoted you in this thread, but I've also responded directly to a person who didn't understand how WB+LA with canceling could beat not canceling so I and others explained how that's possible. You seemed to think that was directed at you even though I never quoted you in that post. The video I posted specifically shows how you can go from 10k to 20k DPS. Alcast minces no words about that. If it's just from lucky crits or not doesn't matter because in the end it all evens out. The point is that the burst potential is much higher if you cancel the animation. He wasn't even taking into consideration the potential for all the other possible procs, boosts, etc. The theoretically increase could be even higher.

And the lag you say high-end players are more concerned with? Don't you realize how much animation canceling not only contributes to that problem but also makes it worse? There are some serious coding issues going on with this game. The fact that our latency goes up in AvA at all is a problem. In other RvR games, your FPS drops but your latency won't change. In ESO, both suffer. There's some cross-over with these issues. But I digress.

The fact of the matter is that animation canceling is an unintended consequence of shoddy game development and it is clearly a much more impacting issue than you're willing to admit. Maybe you like being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, but you're taking the side of a fundamentally flawed, unintended aspect of gameplay, and defending it like you couldn't live without it. Arguing is fun; admitting you're wrong isn't. I get it. But meanwhile, the quality of PvP in this game gets worse with every update and apologists like you are getting in the way of it ever improving by giving the developers a free pass to keep failing in fundamental aspects of combat. Have fun with that.

Ah, now you are backtracking, that's progress! Your initial quote was 3 AC cycles = 1 non-AC cycle, non 3 AC cycles is faster than 3 non-AC cycles.

Wolfen_Steiner wrote: »

Arguing is fun; admitting you're wrong isn't.

Clearly. ;-) And you are still misusing the term "exponentially", what you are describing is linear growth. Your DPS won't go up over time more and more, it will stay at a flat multiple above non-animation-canceled damage. I never denied that it's not good for burst and sustained DPS, you're still chasing an argument you made up on your own. The only thing I'm doing is pointing out where you're exaggerating and misleading people.

As far as the actual snipping of animation goes, I've already said that I'm for the animations playing out as long as the combat stays fast and responsive. If your only issue is with the animation snipping, then we have nothing to argue about. :-) If, on the other hand, you're advocating for slower combat, with longer delays between abilities and light/heavy attacks, dodge rolling, etc., then yeah, we have a problem. So are you frustrated with how fast and responsive combat is, or are you just frustrated with the ability animations? Or a little of both?

And nah, canceled animations have nothing to do with lag, that's a ridiculous claim. The lag is from the servers needing to do a bunch of calculations all at once, and from what the devs have said there are huge bottlenecks when players cast AoE abilities specifically. Your Wrecking Blow -> Light Attack cycles aren't going to be an issue. Unless you're saying that zergs and guilds are doing Steel Tornado -> Light Attack and somehow getting that to work faster than Steel Tornado > Steel Tornado. I'd love to see your "evidence" that this is the case.

kuro-dono

lol this *** feeding here> someone make video of 2 gamers with one having blackwidow keyboard and the other one with some junk keyboard and watch them use the keyboard + their gaming mouse and regulas mouse as well as they can. Animation cancelling in pve is just so lol the target wont react differently based on what you do with your animation cancelling elite skills, but do that in pvp land where the targets you animation cancel against have just no chance if they dont do it + in some case they just dont get to react at all, or dont know how to do it or physicly cant do it, well can, but its ridiculously painful like in my case since my righthand fingers suffer pain regularly and i am not as adhd as most elite players seem to be.

And when some monkeys say that pvp feels too slow or clunky without animation cancelling, whats the hurry? we are here to have fun and playing nice Alliance vs alliance where armies were to fight against each other, but since someone miraculously figured aoe spamming in groups+ animation cancelling it has just ended up being aoe blobbing/ballerina action or gank squad "small scalers" and ap farming. The fun is nearly completely lost and ppl are just blaming each other all the time when some folks just should seriously look into mirror. It really doesnt help when some e peens are making constantly their elite videos of ganking tiny groups at resources or killing folks at breaches with their max aoe dmg benefit builds which like someone last week mentioned> DOESNT REQUIRE SKILL.

Another obvious reason is that Zenimax is listening too much the crying of folks who are feeling miserable that their 4-8 man groups could not kill 20+ size groups, so now we are in this situation where no one tries anything but farm ap at resources and keeps arent getting turned excep late night + morning when most folks sleeping, then we end up waking up into one color map.

I am personally very sick of watching and reading these forums when all you guys are siding with *** things like Animation cancelling or aoe blobbing and stacking up this and that to get best out of this and that. This all started when someone figured there that zerg buster is clever move! well done whoever was the one who begged for that. Now another clever move! vicious death jesus good lord how aweome you folks must be feeling by ruining good game AvA action.

Recremen

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I use macros, don't get me nerfed bro

Gotcha, Maybe I could include a useless graph to demonstrate it. It would have to have a background image of an angry guy and macro software.

Nah honey I don't macro. That kind of false accusation is incredibly unbecoming.

Wolfen_Steiner

What a bunch of nerds getting bent out of shape because I exaggerated numbers and provided a video with a limited sample. It doesn't matter what the exact numbers are or whether it's linear or exponential growth. You're just nitpicking at the only thing you can because you'd rather have nothing change than have the game work properly. Clearly animation canceling is a huge difference maker or nobody would bother doing it. It speeds up combat. It increases damage. It can also be hard to defend against. You want this to be about the math behind animation canceling when for me, this is about the philosophy behind it.

Combat should be fast and fluid without having to cancel animations. That's the heart of my argument in a nutshell. Just straight up removing it isn't enough. They have to address the fundamental problems with its existence in the first place. If Wrecking Blow's damage lands before the animation is finished, then the animation needs to be changed to reflect that. Speed up the animation, remove the cast time, and as a trade-off, tone the damage down, increase the stamina cost and there ya go. Fixed. No more animation canceling. Combat feels faster and looks better. Problem solved.

Combat in this game has always had issues going back to well before the PC launch. It's been janky, floaty, unresponsive with lethargic animations that have made it feel like some serious input lag or something. They've barely improved it over the years despite their efforts. We players have compensated for it by canceling animations. But if they take that away, then we'll still be facing the same problem that has plagued this game since they built it. Removing animation canceling is just the first step to bringing this game's combat up to par. It's a start, but they can't stop there.