Mojmir wrote: »

Siege should hurt,it's not like its fast.

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

7. You can get VD from sieges

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

What about some primarily single target skills that have aoe components? Like Endless Fury or Curse?

Xsorus wrote: »

I say avoid red circles; I seem to be able to avoid them pretty well.. Though I did die to a meat bag recently... But I deserved it because I sort of charged into it.

It seems to be stacking zergers who are having the most trouble this patch

Leandor wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

What about some primarily single target skills that have aoe components? Like Endless Fury or Curse?

As I said, I'd want those not to trigger VD (that is what I meant with splash damage abilities). It would be a problem for sorcs, though, with their execute having splash damage. I'd guess no sorc would object to have that splash damage removed in favour of, let's say 25% higher execute explosion?

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

The only reason why your group or any other are able to defend a keep against hordes of reds is for two very simple reasons. First, reds refuses to use siege shield. Second, reds refuses to siege down additional walls. If they would actually do this, it would be much more challenging for you guys. I've been repeating that over and over in yell chat or to said group leaders but we have yet to see the results. Siege damage / utility is fine as it is imo.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

you get killed by it doesn't mean scream nerf ZOS

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.