siege weapons way to powerfull

Avnr

as title ^^ and all who pvp knows
Just wait on wall and lol wehn they burn to death

ment to fix zerg? well we have another problem now

zyk

I haven't thought siege is too powerful once in 2.3. It's not hard to avoid the red circles. The players I see struggle with it are the ones who are used to shrugging it off like it's nothing.

It's a siege themed game. Siege should be relevant.

HoloYoitsu

People complaining about the buffed siege dmg?

#ToldYouSo

Faasnu

I like the damage now, I hated it when I was previously shooting a bunch of people with a ballista and none of them bothered to move an inch out of the red circle. Now they are all running in every direction.

KenaPKK

Translation: "way too powerful" = "actually relevant now"

Walk out of the red circles, and don't potato into well-defended keeps with only one breach. Siege is perfectly fine.

silky_soft

I'm sad you can cleanse it

Zheg

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

People complaining about the buffed siege dmg?

#ToldYouSo

We should all have this pic at the ready in the coming weeks.

KenaPKK

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

Mojmir

Siege should hurt,it's not like its fast.

Xsorus

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

People complaining about the buffed siege dmg?

#ToldYouSo

So you told us Zergers were going to cry about Upgraded Siege Damage?

#LottoNumbersPlease

_adhyffbjjjf12

Mojmir wrote: »

Siege should hurt,it's not like its fast.

I would go further than that, siege should decimate and should be avoided at all costs, just like in a battle in other games, you get hit by siege, you should be dead or almost dead.

Forestd16b14_ESO

[snip] Siege weapons are finally doing something good again and just you get killed by it doesn't mean scream nerf ZOS just buffed siege weapons from the IC nerf that made them useless. So again siege weapons are fine how they are now and if anything could be a tiny bit stronger just to make sure zergs have something to worry about besides the vicious proxy det death (say that 5X fast) combo.

[edited for flamming]

Astanphaeus

I love the siege changes. The siege should mean something and it didn't before.

Zheg

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

HoloYoitsu

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

I don't get what you're on about. I still go into keeps through single breaches, we have yet to ever resort to "let's Swiss cheese it" with keep walls. Instead, if it's too hot we just pull back to the resource and farm the enemy horde for an hour until they get bored of dying and thin out. Then we siege and get into the keep.

I would say it's more of a giant clusterf*** than a 'challenge.' There isn't much challenge in slotting meteor and prox, running into ppl and watching VD kill them in 2 sec. If I wasn't lagged out and stuck in bombard 70% of the time, I could appreciate the dynamics of movement and positioning, but most of that is lost now. Now we are in a meta where I pop an endless fury onto a door and get 4 additional VD kills. That's not what I call skill.

Open field fights still maintain some of their fun, and FCs are ok there, but if anything I have seen far fewer open field fights than before - most guilds simply prefer to go farm a resource or sit in their keep now. I don't think I need to point out, for instance, how many times red guilds refuse to push past chal mile gate to bleaks after wiping us. The red pugs will come, the guilds will chase us up the hill by the gate, then after we wipe they literally turn around and walk back to the gate because it's easier than pushing objectives.

MaximillianDiE

Seige is fine in general - I really don't have an issue with it mostly. Hoever, its the Emperor on siege that is stupidly broken right now. The AD scrub emp on AS does nothing but pull coldfire seige out and hits with 34k+ treb shots. And let's not even talk about how much Hektik can hurt with them on Haderus as a good player, which when coupled with VD is simply devestating (I'm not blaming the player here who I like and respect but emp siege is clearly broken). Nothing in any game should one-shot anyone before they get a chance to react which is difficult in a frenetic fight, particularly when the lag doesn't show the siege rings.

Skyy

The siege changes are the main thing keeping me from hating the TG patch. They are awesome, keep fights finally feel like keep fights.

MoreDino

My only issue is the rare occasions where I don't get red circles showing up and I die suddenly.

Tavore1138

Siege damage is fine, what makes it less than fine is that- as always - ZOS made several different changes that all affect similar things rather than making incremental changes, analysing the results and then assessing if another change needs making.

In this instance several things combine to make siege damage seem worse than it is:

1. Siege damage had gone up.
2. Purge is less effective
3. Group shields are less effective
4. Skills that healed 2 targets now only heal one.
5. DOT evasion got lowered.
6. Snare removal got reduced.
7. You can get VD from sieges

All these combine to make a small but interesting change into a big deal that annoys and frustrates.

This is why for something like PvP an iterative approach is better than making dozens of changes at once without really considering the synergies between them all.

Leandor

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

Kartalin

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

7. You can get VD from sieges

Maybe we could present an abstinence based approach. Avoid the red circles and you don't have to worry about catching VD from siege... Unless a close friend who's a little careless gives it to you.

HoloYoitsu

Leandor wrote: »

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

What about some primarily single target skills that have aoe components? Like Endless Fury or Curse?

Leandor

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

What about some primarily single target skills that have aoe components? Like Endless Fury or Curse?

As I said, I'd want those not to trigger VD (that is what I meant with splash damage abilities). It would be a problem for sorcs, though, with their execute having splash damage. I'd guess no sorc would object to have that splash damage removed in favour of, let's say 25% higher execute explosion?

Xsorus

I say avoid red circles; I seem to be able to avoid them pretty well.. Though I did die to a meat bag recently... But I deserved it because I sort of charged into it.

It seems to be stacking zergers who are having the most trouble this patch

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

I say avoid red circles; I seem to be able to avoid them pretty well.. Though I did die to a meat bag recently... But I deserved it because I sort of charged into it.

It seems to be stacking zergers who are having the most trouble this patch

Just the ones actually trying to take keeps.

If you want to farm and mindlessly kill wave upon wave of randoms without impen, than you're fine. It only proves a problem when your force is the main focus of a defending group.

Conclusion: farm more?

And I'm talking about randoms being so scared of siege and VD and such that they're still outside the breach afraid we've already bulled through and flipped the keep lol. Guilds still have a *chance* of getting through a breach. To everyone else it is a meat grinder.

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I say avoid red circles; I seem to be able to avoid them pretty well.. Though I did die to a meat bag recently... But I deserved it because I sort of charged into it.

It seems to be stacking zergers who are having the most trouble this patch

Just the ones actually trying to take keeps.

If you want to farm and mindlessly kill wave upon wave of randoms without impen, than you're fine. It only proves a problem when your force is the main focus of a defending group.

Conclusion: farm more?

And I'm talking about randoms being so scared of siege and VD and such that they're still outside the breach afraid we've already bulled through and flipped the keep lol. Guilds still have a *chance* of getting through a breach. To everyone else it is a meat grinder.

I've taken and defended multiple keeps this patch...Because that is where the action and my most intended target is going to be at... (Stacking players)

I've managed to die from VD zero times so far..

and only siege really once

HoloYoitsu

Leandor wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

The core problem is VD though. That in combination with AoE damage, mainly. In my opinion, this set should be changed asap to only trigger on skills that can only damage a single target, i.e. AoE and splash damage abilities should not trigger it. VD triggering on siege kills is adding insult to injury.

That alone would regain a lot breathing space for group fights.

And in regards to siege, an organized group with good siege placement should actually be able to defend a keep even outnumbered - otherwise keeps are a liability rather than an advantage. If that in turn forces attackers to "swiss cheese" walls, outer like inner, then so be it. Keep fights should require tactical warfare other than "rapids, purge, rush in and up".

It's not that defensive siege is impossible to take out. To seriously defend a breach, one has to place siege in courtyard and coordinate it and that means it's vulnerable to a handful attackers coming in through the back, be it by jumping the walls or by opening another hole.

Exception being BWB, siege is overtuned for non-vet.

What about some primarily single target skills that have aoe components? Like Endless Fury or Curse?

As I said, I'd want those not to trigger VD (that is what I meant with splash damage abilities). It would be a problem for sorcs, though, with their execute having splash damage. I'd guess no sorc would object to have that splash damage removed in favour of, let's say 25% higher execute explosion?

Remove the useless aoe sure, in exchange change the execute proc from a 4 second dot that checks once per second for 'in execute range', and can thus be circumvented by healing out of execute range causing it to not proc at all, to something that has priority over incoming heals in regards to the execute actually proccing.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

The only reason why your group or any other are able to defend a keep against hordes of reds is for two very simple reasons. First, reds refuses to use siege shield. Second, reds refuses to siege down additional walls. If they would actually do this, it would be much more challenging for you guys.

I've been repeating that over and over in yell chat or to said group leaders but we have yet to see the results. For example, today at Chal I took the east inner postern down by myself 3 times in a row and that leaded us to taking the backflag for a while. But as soon as I died, there was nobody else to flag it and you guys got it back up in a second.

This being said, siege damage / utility is fine as it is imo.

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

The only reason why your group or any other are able to defend a keep against hordes of reds is for two very simple reasons. First, reds refuses to use siege shield. Second, reds refuses to siege down additional walls. If they would actually do this, it would be much more challenging for you guys. I've been repeating that over and over in yell chat or to said group leaders but we have yet to see the results. Siege damage / utility is fine as it is imo.

Hordes are called hordes for a reason. They're not organized. If i was fighting 80 organized EP that would be pretty much undoable lol.

Xsorus

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

The only reason why your group or any other are able to defend a keep against hordes of reds is for two very simple reasons. First, reds refuses to use siege shield. Second, reds refuses to siege down additional walls. If they would actually do this, it would be much more challenging for you guys.

I've been repeating that over and over in yell chat or to said group leaders but we have yet to see the results. For example, today at Chal I took the east inner postern down by myself 3 times in a row and that leaded us to taking the backflag for a while. But as soon as I died, there was nobody else to flag it and you guys got it back up in a second.

This being said, siege damage / utility is fine as it is imo.

Hmm this is going to sound crazy.. I completely forgot about siege shield... And the reason is I've not seen it used one time this entire patch.

Avnr

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

you get killed by it doesn't mean scream nerf ZOS

i kill with sige weapon to eazy
lo
maybe the damage ok just need longer reload time

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg Is siege really that oppressively strong to your groups, or do you just miss being able to charge into keeps with only one breach 20v40 and be able to take them without trouble unless certain other ~20 man ball groups were present to confront you?

I have to say I'm loving the siege and forward camp changes. Attacking keeps is actually challenging now, solo / small group players can make a real difference in fights, and pugs actually stand a chance against the large guilds (finally). That said, there is clear counterplay going in both directions, making the fights dynamic and interesting. You just have to put the effort into finding it.

I've been running around with 2-8 of my guys + whatever pugs are in the area, and we've taken and defended keeps against significantly greater numbers despite heavy siege. I don't see what the issue is if your people are competent enough to operate off crown, and if you properly utilize siege and FCs and VD.

Edit: oh, and the open field fights that have sprung up with the addition of FCs and stronger siege are soooo fun!

People see a complaint and automatically go into "zergers are baddies and are crying because things are harder" - mode. Not saying you, but in general that's been the norm on forums lately, and it has impeded necessary conversations on balance and appropriate feedback.

When it comes to siege, if I'm being as objective and unbiased as possible, I don't enjoy it even when I'm solo. It enables people to be lazy and stay in relative safety while racking up AP that should be earned actually fighting, imo. The majority of siege damage MUST be purged, but purge is expensive compared to how often siege damage can be reapplied. Siege doesn't even always render in lag, which makes having stupidly high damage numbers all the more silly. They also have yet to fix the emp siege bug, so they can literally oneshot people with a single siege hit.

Between the burst, higher regular damage numbers, healing nerfs, purge nerf, barrier nerf, rapids nerf, prolific amounts of heal debuffs, siege damage, VD, fasalla's guile - it's like wrobel and wheeler got drunk (but wrobel was only drinking his juice boxes), decided to throw everything against the wall at once and hope for the best. Some of these changes, with proper numbers applied to them, would have been far more effective at targeting larger groups while still keeping the game fun for everyone. This patch was not surgical balance, it was done with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel. Many of these changes impacted some classes more than others, so they're only furthering the class balance issues we already had. PVP is not healthy right now, particularly when you combine all of those changes with forward camps and the kind of play that it enables.

If we're being perfectly honest Kena, our group still pushes into single breaches 20v40. You cannot take the keep though if those 40 include organized groups because the laundry list of reasons I mentioned above prevent you from healing through/tanking the damage long enough to actually flip both flags. HP pools, healing, and mitigation tools are not strong enough right now to keep a single group alive while outnumbered and trying to flip flags. We've had successful outnumbered keep takes this patch, but most of the time they're against disorganized pugs. Likewise, of the yellow and red groups that have assaulted our keeps, I think most of them would agree they cannot do so while outnumbered if a group like ours is defending. Again, I don't see that as healthy pvp, all it has done (accurately predicted mind you...) is encourage gigantic numbers for single objectives.

As to your keep takes, you clearly are fighting in different types of fights than us if you can take a keep with 2 people, and I'm assuming you're also fighting disorganized pugs. I'm sorry, but you're not pulling that off if you have haxus/invictus/victorem defending with their normal numbers, plus forward camps. Come play on Trueflame during primetime and go to the single fight on the map and my feedback becomes crystal clear.

good post