Zheg wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Of the good templars that somehow agree with Jules, do ANY of you let your RD go full duration if you cast it on a high health player - whether because of a laggy weapon swap or them popping shields and healing up?

Go ahead, answer that question, and then come back and talk about how OP the damage is at high health.

A lot of bad templars dont ani-cancel and use radiant at 100%.

That's not really the point. Bad templars gonna bad templar. If the damage is SO OP at high health though, wouldn't blab and asgari be using it in those situations? Or, are they like the other realistic templars, curse, and manually cancel their RD when it goes off on high health targets.

Or possibly not use the broken skill? That seems viable imo. If its broken, dont use it. Usually when i fight a templar using radiant first, I use crit rush and they are left just running around. This is on ps4 though. idk if ppl who spam radiant at 100% happens on pc.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Don't worry the fan bois will still run tri-stat pots

Templars use Tripots in pvp? Really? That's news to me. As an aside 'bois' means wood in french. There are no wooden fans here, or fans in the woods. (This is meant to be silly, please don't explain your meaning).

It is 500% harder to prove a negative, and we're not willing to do that. The burden should rest on those taking issue with something being OP.

Instead this will happen to any threads whining about templar dmg without sufficient evidence.

Well yea dude if we're going for like propaganda sure send out a noob to hit a DK lol

To actually prove its not OP you'd have to test in like all kinds of situations vs. all kinds of builds, probably even present it in lagged out situations b/c that is a legitimate concern for balance due to this game lagging out so much.

It all sounds really boring and tedious.

What I mean is it is very easy to make a video of it not hitting hard, sorry if it was confusing (and no I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending.)

Jules wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jules -

A templar will do 50% more damage using Dark Flare or Puncturing Sweeps than they will with RD. Not just that. If I am using Sweeps, it's an AoE, I am getting healed, you are getting snared, it is not getting interrupted. If I am using Flare, you are getting heal debuffed, my next attack is getting empowered, it's perhaps the hardest hitting skill in the game delivered all at once. A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

I have been using this skill for a year and have had it used against me. I know when to use it and what to do if used against me. I will tell you if a templar uses this skill against a competent opponent above 35% who is not CCed or has their health dropping like a rock due to damage from other players, it is a poor choice to make.

As for why RD does "so much damage" to you at high health, that's because you are just standing there AFK with mediocre spell resist against a seasoned player who has tailored his build to maximize magic damage. It's Cyrodiil. Look at your own build. Are you kidding me? 46K magica, 3.6K spell damage, 4.2K regen. The fact of the matter is if anyone half-competent uses just about any skill against an AFK player, they will melt. Except pretty much instant-cast executes. Which you unfairly used as a comparison. How is this so hard to figure out? We still have 25K health just like the beginning of 1.6, the resistance cap and mechanics are still the same with respect to magic mitigation, yet damage has climbed through the roof.

If you are going to claim that a spell that does 50% less damage while placing the caster in a vulnerable position than alternatives that have very desirable complementary effects is over-performing, I am going to resoundingly disagree with you. Every time. And be confident that I am more than justified in taking a position that is objective and not clouded by class bias or personal agenda.

To me, the proof is not is misleading screenshots, edited videos, or even good/unbiased theorycrafting on paper. It is how experienced and good templars actually use this skill in competitive situations. There are times I actually stop using this skill via canceling and move onto a more suitable option because the spell is a poor choice to use against opponents over 50% health. Maybe people think I'm zerg-baddie and don't met that standard. Whatever. Most of the templars that people consider "good" use the spell in a similar manner that I do. For a year templars have been desperately trying to Jesus Beam me to sneak in a killing blow regardless of what my health is. Way way way more often then not, they fail and I am grateful they chose to use a skill you claim is over-performing rather than more sound options appropriate for the situation.

First & foremost,
Joy, I respect you greatly as a player and as a person. I always have and always will despite us disagreeing on this subject.

Your points about dark flare and puncturing sweeps are accurate and I agree. I think that dark flare at this time hits incredibly hard and is a health debuff which makes for a great skill. More dps than RD for sure, and more appropriate for most dps situations. Also deadly in a dark flare > toppling charge > jabs combo.

Joy_Division wrote: »

A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

As for this, I think this is also incredibly true. However I think you minimize the amount that this happens in Cyrodiil and why its happening in Cyrodiil. This skill is all too often used as a DPS ability and is incredibly hard to counter in outnumbered situations where the templar is at max range and others are also likely beating on you. While I can bash, interrupt, ect this skill, I cannot dodge it or evade it well. You say the templar is in a vulnerable position and then go on further to say that you can cancel it and move on to a more suitable option easily. It isn't difficult to simply block and cancel the RD and heal or retreat or apply pressure through other means.

In order to stop you from RD'ing me, I need to either run a ranged interrupt or be able to get up on top of the person if they are spamming it on me. Magicka users have higher max magicka than ever before, and this ability scales off of the low health of the opponent as well as the percentage of magicka the templar has. I think that even if the execute function it has was increased and the base damage no longer scaled off of max magicka currently on player, the skill would be balanced. I think that if it stayed as is and with either a reduction in range or a dodgeable function, it would be balanced.

The point is not to strip the templar of a viable execute skill at all. Simply to bring it more in line with other executes which do not scale in the same way this does.

How is having a dodgeable function balanced? It was OK for templars to be defenseless while stamina-based players were free to ignore all the damage and move out of range of the immobile templar? That doesn't sound balanced to me. Rather, that sounds convenient for a specific part of the player base.

You keep saying "bring in more in line with other executes." What exactly do you mean by that? It sounds like to me "useless" outside of 50%. I don't agree. I have more than enough useless, impractical, and only good in "x" situations on the templar toolkit.

And how exactly do you "bring in more in line with other executes" when the other executes have different mechanics - and, most likely, intent? Radiant is a channel. On the "healer" class with limited/awkward DPS options. Why are we comparing apples to oranges?

*******

So if other skills were incredibly hard to counter in outnumbered situations when others are beating on you, would you also agree that they need to be nerfed or reworked?

How are magicka templars supposed to counter multiple stamina-based players beating on them with wrecking blows, snipes, ambushes, surprise attacks, critical rushes, reverb bashes, ransack/bash spams with their toolkit, zero mobility, and a whopping 14K stamina? Am I suppose to use a 4K class shield? A neutered reflect that only effects 1 target? An Area CC that somehow only effects 1 target? I got maybe 2 dodges in me, 1 CC break and then breath of life spam until I die miserably. There's no defense in that situation. The best option to go offensively. It's a joke. But hey, that's what magicka builds sign up for, right? No stamina and high vulnerability to stamina based player who pretty much ignore your entire pathetic physical resistance.

You claim it's "incredibly hard to counter" RD in such scenarios as if it were a universal truth. It isn't. I get beat on it outnumbered situations and templars spam this on me. I am glad they do because harness magicka eats this skill up for breakfast. Or I purify/purge it. No, you can't dodge it. It has a different means to counter it. I can't purge a wrecking blow, but I'm not the coming onto these forums complaining about it. If I am zerged by magicka players, it's much easier to deal with. Any magicka-based player that claims they can't counter this skill is either not being honest or just isn't very experienced.

To be more specific, it's hard to counter for certain stamina specs because they have limited magicka resources such as purify or cloak and harness magicka isn't really appropriate for them to put on their toolbars. Hmm...doesn't this sound vaguely familiar? I am ill-equipped to deal with their attacks. They are ill-equipped to deal with mine. Apparently their idea of balance is that it's OK that I signed up to be a spec that when zerged down by them it's a legit kill but when they get zerged down by the likes of me, that's a problem that demands immediate attention. Not buying what they are selling. Sorry.

Now, it's obvious they aren't buying what I'm selling either. Whatever. They look at their death recap and get upset. I look at my class's toolkit to contend with their fears, wrecking-blows, crit rushes, perma-shuffle, ransack-bash spam and get upset. This game's balance is a dumpster-fire. But if people are going to demand that ZoS nerf a specific skill that a certain spec in already highly disadvantageous situations has problems dealing with, I am going to point out the flaws, inaccuracies, and inconsistencies in their arguments.

Edit: tl;dr: At the end of the day, this skill is a poor decision in a competitive situation when the opposing player's health is above 35%. As a templar can get 50% more DPS + other highly beneficial effects using alternative skills, I do not accept the premise that this skill does too much DPS at full health.

Mag sorc
Stam blade

No you don't get to talk about balance

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Don't worry the fan bois will still run tri-stat pots

Templars use Tripots in pvp? Really? That's news to me. As an aside 'bois' means wood in french. There are no wooden fans here, or fans in the woods. (This is meant to be silly, please don't explain your meaning).

LOL... As I am not French, I did not know that.

As for the comment, it was a joke pointing at the people who complain about something that someone else says. Could of said any potion except the one I listed the ingredients for. Sorry I am starting to explain something again... my bad

Settle the beef in PMs IMO

This thread is about the first of potentially many screams about the dmg they gave templars and needs to be addressed.

If we don't stand up to this, the dmg will be gone too and the heals and tanking is not coming back anytime soon, I can guarantee that.

[

Minno wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner. The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

You are in dreamland. I would expect 99.9999% of Templar magicka builds (Which I'm not currently one of unless you count a level 15 bwb character) would PREFER to have RD be an instant cast execute like every other class gets. Your problem is that you don't know how good you have it as a non Templar. If it is so awesome, go level a Templar up and show us how great your skills are. I highly doubt that the FOTM crowd are abandoning their NB's and Sorcs to go play a Magplar. Lets get real here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqo-T9csmiI

Wtb purifying ritual with projectile purge...

woops.

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

1v1 isn't balancing in this game. It's not street fighter.

Templar is a great 1vX class on ps4 live IMO, probably the best... does that mean it is OP?

1v1 used to be awesome in this game. It's *** now since they removed softcaps and people have infinite regen builds. Dueling people felt more like a battle rather than who can get their combo to kill the other guy first. Real skill involved back then where even small mistakes would get ya killed. Fun times then and there was less butthurt about losing a duel. Hopefully one day we can have that back.

On PC Mag NBs and Sorcs run 1vX cause they can reset fights anytime they please. Templars got to stand their ground and fight it out. That is why I don't like the mobility issue, cause that is the type of gameplay I like. Guess each their own...

Brrrofski wrote: »

So what exactly is making it "op" now?

Not being able to dodge and being able to increase damage via elemental and thaumatuge?

its op because when jules plays pvp, nobody animation cancels and uses impen. Thats why its OP in the first place.

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

ZOS has agreed it's NOT OP.

This is your argument? I suggest you think that one through a little bit longer.


Regardless, I replied several times earlier in the thread. Its easy to poke holes in someone who takes a chance and puts an argument out there, including a video. Where is video detailing that its not OP? Are you going to hold yourself to the same standard of evidence that you have asked of @Jules? To cover all possible test scenarios, ensuring fair/similar gear, and appropriate scenarios?

You are aware of how a debate works yes? The person making the claim is responsible for proving said claim. Those arguing against it have no responsibility to prove the negative as it wasn't their argument in the first place. It's ALWAYS the responsibility of the one making the argument to prove said argument.

The only thing Jules accomplished is to show a clear bias against this skill in multiple threads. I mean, Jules kept posting the video EVERYWHERE even after everyone pointed out it was a VERY bias video which proved almost nothing, even after we posted over a dozen counters to the skill etc. Jules admitted it was bias yet kept throwing up as evidence. This is your standard of proof? Make a bias video and keep spamming it until people accept it?

Also my "argument" wasn't "ZOS thinks it's not op". That was just 1 tiny part of my post. You read that post right? You would know that if you did.

The music in the video is very ironic.

Ghostbane wrote: »

Ghosts guide to avoiding RD


Chapter 1 : Magicka Builds

Spam Harness.


Chapter 2 : Stamina Builds

Don't log in.

10/10 would read again.
What a cliffhanger! Can't wait for Chapter 3!