Jesus Beam vs. Other Executes

Zheg · March 2016

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

I simply think the skill is overpeforming and many Templars share in this belief if they are not trying to blindly protect their precious skill.
...
I am content in the fact that though we may disagree about this particular skill, I would never assume the same of you. ... All that matters to me is a discussion is held and that we as a community can discuss the validity of this skill as it works now.

"Blindly protect their precious skill"? So if we disagree with your opinion, that automatically means we're wrong and are completely incapable of objectively looking at one of our skills eh? You actually have the balls to follow that with some bogus statement about agreeing to disagree and caring about actual discussion and balance? Yeah, ok . And you actually have the gall to claim to want balance but then in the same thread post a pic of your NB with obscenely unbalanced stats? No one is buying the BS, nor hypocrisy.

Just because a few templars agree with you, that does not make you right, nor them. I can find a few people to agree with me on pretty much any topic. This isn't templars trying to keep something OP, this is templars being able to shoot down dumb nerf threads that don't have a strong position to stand on other than their own personal opinion. Your initial post is highly misleading if your only goal is to prove that it over-performs at high health, and whether or not you care to admit it is, most in here see it as intentional.

Your arguments have been weak because your position is weak, and it's not lost on any of us why you aren't responding to posts that make what you're saying look ridiculous like Joy's. I'm going to just leave this here for you again:

On a side note, looks like quite a lot of people have those 'hate b3ners' for you eh Jules? My first post was tepid compared to some of these; doesn't really look like you're winning over hearts and minds here, but then again, to be able to do that, you need to actually have a strong argument. Ready to have your mind blown? Maybe you're wrong.

I understand that you relish in people disagreeing with me because your personal vendetta is all but your main objective. While I find that amusing, that aside, I think the original post is pretty clear in its statement of "this overperforms at high health" when Blab's RD kills me from max health faster than any other execute examined.

As I have already stated in this thread:

Jules wrote: »

You are right, the testing process is inconsistent and a true test would involve much more involved data and theorycrafting of builds to equalize the attackers executes.
...
I am not stupid and I recognize that this test does not have these things and thus cannot be valued as a baseline or be a catalyst for immediate change.

However, I think the video does raise a need for further analysis. It's important to still assess WHY and not just accept everything at face value. WHY does the RD do so much more damage to me? I have ~18k spell resist but only ~9k physical resist. I have equal 60/60 Hardy/Elemental Defender. Is Blab just that OP or is there something else worth looking at here? It is true that RD has counters to it that other executes do not, and that is worth considering. But is it really that outrageous to believe that the skill is overperforming at high health? Was the max magicka aspect of this skill considered to adapt to 40k max magicka or was it envisioned for the 26-30k of 1.6?

As far as the nb stats, they are in fact admittedly OP, despite them being fully buffed with continuous attack and lich proc. It is impossible to get anything close to that on any other magicka toon I have. I think that NB passives are the strongest in the game and either need to be brought in line with other classes, or have other classes be brought up to their level.

And Zheg. We do not like each other and that is well known and I have accepted that for a long time. However I think you should really look at your tendency to automatically insult rather than base your responses off of the subject at hand. Even respect can be had amongst enemies.

Oh, I disagree with you aplenty on topics. If my 'personal vendetta' is all but my main objective, believe me, I'd be replying to some of your other ridiculous posts on other threads. I'm not a happy camper with the state of templar balance, nor balance in general. You made a templar whine thread and tried to veil it in the name of balance, and I'm going to call you out on that, thoroughly. I can disagree with you on content Jules - my poor opinion of you is reflected in the tone, not substance of the post. You seem to keep responding to tone, whether to me or others, and have mostly avoided the substance. Yes, we've moved beyond the poor video, even you admit that much.

I even linked Joy's post to you, which pretty strongly shoots down your argument that it's over-performing at high health and shouldn't be, and you still don't want to address it. To the latter part of your post, when a templar goes full glass cannon, they are far more vulnerable than a NB. There is zero mobility and bare bones defense in the class skill lines. If you invest all of your champion points into damage and max magicka, you tear like wet paper if someone comes after you in cyro. You can get off a few ganks, but you can't cloak away and disengage like a NB can when they go glass cannon. Once you engage, you're committed. Go ahead and run around jesus beaming people at full health in cyro against average - good players, then come share your results. The reality and practicality is something that all of these templars arguing with you know full well.

As for respect among enemies, there is indeed respect among many of the people I fight in cyro. You once had it, but squandered it after months of veiled insults and one-sided expectations. There was respect at one point, you just lost it. It is what it is, but you really need to try and get past seeing anything and everything from someone that dislikes you as only a personal attack and completely ignoring the substance.

Nifty2g · March 2016

You know, I think ZOS should just allow you dodge radiant, it removed the "spamming" at full health of it, which seems to put a bad taste in peoples mouth, even though that is highly ineffective.

And it makes people use it as an actual execute which I think is what people want? No one really had an issue with this skill before, it honestly hasn't changed much, last patch before the CP changes I still got 1 ticks that were doing like 15k+ damage when they got low health

timidobserver · March 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

You know, I think ZOS should just allow you dodge radiant, it removed the "spamming" at full health of it, which seems to put a bad taste in peoples mouth, even though that is highly ineffective.

And it makes people use it as an actual execute which I think is what people want? No one really had an issue with this skill before, it honestly hasn't changed much, last patch before the CP changes I still got 1 ticks that were doing like 15k+ damage when they got low health

I had an issue with it. It was worthless when dodge rolling cancelled it and left you stuck in the animation.

Nifty2g · March 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You know, I think ZOS should just allow you dodge radiant, it removed the "spamming" at full health of it, which seems to put a bad taste in peoples mouth, even though that is highly ineffective.

And it makes people use it as an actual execute which I think is what people want? No one really had an issue with this skill before, it honestly hasn't changed much, last patch before the CP changes I still got 1 ticks that were doing like 15k+ damage when they got low health

I had an issue with it. It was worthless when dodge rolling cancelled it and left you stuck in the animation.

Then don't stand there spamming it at full health and you wont have that issue? Use it at the appropriate health percentage and you might see some better results, which for all your information pvpers, is not 40%, that is for pve to see a dps increase from rotations. Use it at 25%

timidobserver · March 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You know, I think ZOS should just allow you dodge radiant, it removed the "spamming" at full health of it, which seems to put a bad taste in peoples mouth, even though that is highly ineffective.

And it makes people use it as an actual execute which I think is what people want? No one really had an issue with this skill before, it honestly hasn't changed much, last patch before the CP changes I still got 1 ticks that were doing like 15k+ damage when they got low health

I had an issue with it. It was worthless when dodge rolling cancelled it and left you stuck in the animation.

Then don't stand there spamming it at full health and you wont have that issue? Use it at the appropriate health percentage and you might see some better results

You missed the point. Even used appropriately a dodge roll spammer left you stuck in the animation. Last patch it was more effective to just try to charge spam a low health stam build to death rather than executing them and that says something given that charge bugs out 50% of the time. I personally just wanted it to cancel the animation if it was dodged, but I am okay with the undodgable change as well.

Minno · March 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

You know, I think ZOS should just allow you dodge radiant, it removed the "spamming" at full health of it, which seems to put a bad taste in peoples mouth, even though that is highly ineffective.

And it makes people use it as an actual execute which I think is what people want? No one really had an issue with this skill before, it honestly hasn't changed much, last patch before the CP changes I still got 1 ticks that were doing like 15k+ damage when they got low health

I had an issue with it. It was worthless when dodge rolling cancelled it and left you stuck in the animation.

Then don't stand there spamming it at full health and you wont have that issue? Use it at the appropriate health percentage and you might see some better results

You missed the point. Even used appropriately a dodge roll spammer left you stuck in the animation. Last patch it was more effective to just try to charge spam a low health stam build to death rather than executing them and that says something given that charge bugs out 50% of the time. I personally just wanted it to cancel the animation if it was dodged, but I am okay with the undodgable change as well.

Correct, I'm fine with dodgable if it didn't cause an animation bug.

Joy_Division · March 2016

Jules -

A templar will do 50% more damage using Dark Flare or Puncturing Sweeps than they will with RD. Not just that. If I am using Sweeps, it's an AoE, I am getting healed, you are getting snared, it is not getting interrupted. If I am using Flare, you are getting heal debuffed, my next attack is getting empowered, it's perhaps the hardest hitting skill in the game delivered all at once. A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

I have been using this skill for a year and have had it used against me. I know when to use it and what to do if used against me. I will tell you if a templar uses this skill against a competent opponent above 35% who is not CCed or has their health dropping like a rock due to damage from other players, it is a poor choice to make.

As for why RD does "so much damage" to you at high health, that's because you are just standing there AFK with mediocre spell resist against a seasoned player who has tailored his build to maximize magic damage. It's Cyrodiil. Look at your own build. Are you kidding me? 46K magica, 3.6K spell damage, 4.2K regen. The fact of the matter is if anyone half-competent uses just about any skill against an AFK player, they will melt. Except pretty much instant-cast executes. Which you unfairly used as a comparison. How is this so hard to figure out? We still have 25K health just like the beginning of 1.6, the resistance cap and mechanics are still the same with respect to magic mitigation, yet damage has climbed through the roof.

If you are going to claim that a spell that does 50% less damage while placing the caster in a vulnerable position than alternatives that have very desirable complementary effects is over-performing, I am going to resoundingly disagree with you. Every time. And be confident that I am more than justified in taking a position that is objective and not clouded by class bias or personal agenda.

To me, the proof is not is misleading screenshots, edited videos, or even good/unbiased theorycrafting on paper. It is how experienced and good templars actually use this skill in competitive situations. There are times I actually stop using this skill via canceling and move onto a more suitable option because the spell is a poor choice to use against opponents over 50% health. Maybe people think I'm zerg-baddie and don't met that standard. Whatever. Most of the templars that people consider "good" use the spell in a similar manner that I do. For a year templars have been desperately trying to Jesus Beam me to sneak in a killing blow regardless of what my health is. Way way way more often then not, they fail and I am grateful they chose to use a skill you claim is over-performing rather than more sound options appropriate for the situation.

Parafrost · March 2016

Uhh you can weapon swap to get out of radiant. Also you can cancel it by blocking. Ill post a vid of me doing it on ps4. Give me like an hour to post it (thats how long it takes to upload

)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoUucCE-g6M

Here's block canceling it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG_G0kQrbbw

Here's weapon swap canceling. This is just to show it can be canceled, not that the effect lingers on.

Jules · March 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jules -

A templar will do 50% more damage using Dark Flare or Puncturing Sweeps than they will with RD. Not just that. If I am using Sweeps, it's an AoE, I am getting healed, you are getting snared, it is not getting interrupted. If I am using Flare, you are getting heal debuffed, my next attack is getting empowered, it's perhaps the hardest hitting skill in the game delivered all at once. A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

I have been using this skill for a year and have had it used against me. I know when to use it and what to do if used against me. I will tell you if a templar uses this skill against a competent opponent above 35% who is not CCed or has their health dropping like a rock due to damage from other players, it is a poor choice to make.

As for why RD does "so much damage" to you at high health, that's because you are just standing there AFK with mediocre spell resist against a seasoned player who has tailored his build to maximize magic damage. It's Cyrodiil. Look at your own build. Are you kidding me? 46K magica, 3.6K spell damage, 4.2K regen. The fact of the matter is if anyone half-competent uses just about any skill against an AFK player, they will melt. Except pretty much instant-cast executes. Which you unfairly used as a comparison. How is this so hard to figure out? We still have 25K health just like the beginning of 1.6, the resistance cap and mechanics are still the same with respect to magic mitigation, yet damage has climbed through the roof.

If you are going to claim that a spell that does 50% less damage while placing the caster in a vulnerable position than alternatives that have very desirable complementary effects is over-performing, I am going to resoundingly disagree with you. Every time. And be confident that I am more than justified in taking a position that is objective and not clouded by class bias or personal agenda.

To me, the proof is not is misleading screenshots, edited videos, or even good/unbiased theorycrafting on paper. It is how experienced and good templars actually use this skill in competitive situations. There are times I actually stop using this skill via canceling and move onto a more suitable option because the spell is a poor choice to use against opponents over 50% health. Maybe people think I'm zerg-baddie and don't met that standard. Whatever. Most of the templars that people consider "good" use the spell in a similar manner that I do. For a year templars have been desperately trying to Jesus Beam me to sneak in a killing blow regardless of what my health is. Way way way more often then not, they fail and I am grateful they chose to use a skill you claim is over-performing rather than more sound options appropriate for the situation.

First & foremost,
Joy, I respect you greatly as a player and as a person. I always have and always will despite us disagreeing on this subject.

Your points about dark flare and puncturing sweeps are accurate and I agree. I think that dark flare at this time hits incredibly hard and is a health debuff which makes for a great skill. More dps than RD for sure, and more appropriate for most dps situations. Also deadly in a dark flare > toppling charge > jabs combo.

Joy_Division wrote: »

A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

As for this, I think this is also incredibly true. However I think you minimize the amount that this happens in Cyrodiil and why its happening in Cyrodiil. This skill is all too often used as a DPS ability and is incredibly hard to counter in outnumbered situations where the templar is at max range and others are also likely beating on you. While I can bash, interrupt, ect this skill, I cannot dodge it or evade it well. You say the templar is in a vulnerable position and then go on further to say that you can cancel it and move on to a more suitable option easily. It isn't difficult to simply block and cancel the RD and heal or retreat or apply pressure through other means.

In order to stop you from RD'ing me, I need to either run a ranged interrupt or be able to get up on top of the person if they are spamming it on me. Magicka users have higher max magicka than ever before, and this ability scales off of the low health of the opponent as well as the percentage of magicka the templar has. I think that even if the execute function it has was increased and the base damage no longer scaled off of max magicka currently on player, the skill would be balanced. I think that if it stayed as is and with either a reduction in range or a dodgeable function, it would be balanced.

The point is not to strip the templar of a viable execute skill at all. Simply to bring it more in line with other executes which do not scale in the same way this does.

Zheg · March 2016

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

Parafrost · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

We're not saying nerf the damage, were saying rework the skill so that it works just like any other execute.

AND ADD A EXECUTE FOR MAG DK :C PLOX

danno8 · March 2016

Jules wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jules -

A templar will do 50% more damage using Dark Flare or Puncturing Sweeps than they will with RD. Not just that. If I am using Sweeps, it's an AoE, I am getting healed, you are getting snared, it is not getting interrupted. If I am using Flare, you are getting heal debuffed, my next attack is getting empowered, it's perhaps the hardest hitting skill in the game delivered all at once. A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

I have been using this skill for a year and have had it used against me. I know when to use it and what to do if used against me. I will tell you if a templar uses this skill against a competent opponent above 35% who is not CCed or has their health dropping like a rock due to damage from other players, it is a poor choice to make.

As for why RD does "so much damage" to you at high health, that's because you are just standing there AFK with mediocre spell resist against a seasoned player who has tailored his build to maximize magic damage. It's Cyrodiil. Look at your own build. Are you kidding me? 46K magica, 3.6K spell damage, 4.2K regen. The fact of the matter is if anyone half-competent uses just about any skill against an AFK player, they will melt. Except pretty much instant-cast executes. Which you unfairly used as a comparison. How is this so hard to figure out? We still have 25K health just like the beginning of 1.6, the resistance cap and mechanics are still the same with respect to magic mitigation, yet damage has climbed through the roof.

If you are going to claim that a spell that does 50% less damage while placing the caster in a vulnerable position than alternatives that have very desirable complementary effects is over-performing, I am going to resoundingly disagree with you. Every time. And be confident that I am more than justified in taking a position that is objective and not clouded by class bias or personal agenda.

To me, the proof is not is misleading screenshots, edited videos, or even good/unbiased theorycrafting on paper. It is how experienced and good templars actually use this skill in competitive situations. There are times I actually stop using this skill via canceling and move onto a more suitable option because the spell is a poor choice to use against opponents over 50% health. Maybe people think I'm zerg-baddie and don't met that standard. Whatever. Most of the templars that people consider "good" use the spell in a similar manner that I do. For a year templars have been desperately trying to Jesus Beam me to sneak in a killing blow regardless of what my health is. Way way way more often then not, they fail and I am grateful they chose to use a skill you claim is over-performing rather than more sound options appropriate for the situation.

First & foremost,
Joy, I respect you greatly as a player and as a person. I always have and always will despite us disagreeing on this subject.

Your points about dark flare and puncturing sweeps are accurate and I agree. I think that dark flare at this time hits incredibly hard and is a health debuff which makes for a great skill. More dps than RD for sure, and more appropriate for most dps situations. Also deadly in a dark flare > toppling charge > jabs combo.

Joy_Division wrote: »

A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

As for this, I think this is also incredibly true. However I think you minimize the amount that this happens in Cyrodiil and why its happening in Cyrodiil. This skill is all too often used as a DPS ability and is incredibly hard to counter in outnumbered situations where the templar is at max range and others are also likely beating on you. While I can bash, interrupt, ect this skill, I cannot dodge it or evade it well. You say the templar is in a vulnerable position and then go on further to say that you can cancel it and move on to a more suitable option easily. It isn't difficult to simply block and cancel the RD and heal or retreat or apply pressure through other means.

In order to stop you from RD'ing me, I need to either run a ranged interrupt or be able to get up on top of the person if they are spamming it on me. Magicka users have higher max magicka than ever before, and this ability scales off of the low health of the opponent as well as the percentage of magicka the templar has. I think that even if the execute function it has was increased and the base damage no longer scaled off of max magicka currently on player, the skill would be balanced. I think that if it stayed as is and with either a reduction in range or a dodgeable function, it would be balanced.

The point is not to strip the templar of a viable execute skill at all. Simply to bring it more in line with other executes which do not scale in the same way this does.

I'd be fine with it doing 0 damage above 50% frankly. I never use it on an opponent above 50% anyway (at least not on purpose) and then people could stop complaining about it? (probably not, lol)

I'd also be fine with dodge rolling negating the ticks for the duration of the dodge roll, which is what I though ZoS would do but oddly did not.

I also wish ZoS would add a (x4) capability to their death recap so people could understand how many tick they are getting hit with.

But given Templars total lack of mobility and dwindling defense options sans healing, I really think it should be the strongest execute in the game, at least for now. If ZoS actually starts to give Templar back some of their lost defense then RD can be revisited at that point.

Zheg · March 2016

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

We're not saying nerf the damage, were saying rework the skill so that it works just like any other execute.

AND ADD A EXECUTE FOR MAG DK :C PLOX

As joy hinted at in his earlier post, sometimes for healers RD is the only available dps skill that can fit on their bar if theyre a healer that will allow them to actually contribute good damage. The intention of the skill certainly could have been to do mediocre damage even in non execute range because of the vulnerabilities it forces on the caster and because of the lack of room on a heal bar. how many nb pvp with impale again? None. Sorcs and temps have the best executes, maybe that's for a reason - maybe all of the other underperforming areas make up for a strong execute that makes DKs cranky because they can't reflect it and have to make a decision about whether to give up something on their bar to counter it.

And Jules was certainly saying to nerf the damage it does at higher HP.

Parafrost · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

We're not saying nerf the damage, were saying rework the skill so that it works just like any other execute.

AND ADD A EXECUTE FOR MAG DK :C PLOX

As joy hinted at in his earlier post, sometimes for healers RD is the only available dps skill that can fit on their bar if theyre a healer that will allow them to actually contribute good damage. The intention of the skill certainly could have been to do mediocre damage even in non execute range because of the vulnerabilities it forces on the caster and because of the lack of room on a heal bar. how many nb pvp with impale again? None. Sorcs and temps have the best executes, maybe that's for a reason - maybe all of the other underperforming areas make up for a strong execute that makes DKs cranky because they can't reflect it and have to make a decision about whether to give up something on their bar to counter it.

And Jules was certainly saying to need the damage it does at higher HP.

Healers should have shards as a dps skill o.o. How many heals can you slot on 2 bars???

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

Jules wrote: »

But is it really that outrageous to believe that the skill is overperforming at high health? Was the max magicka aspect of this skill considered to adapt to 40k max magicka or was it envisioned for the 26-30k of 1.6?

As far as the nb stats, they are in fact admittedly OP, despite them being fully buffed with continuous attack and lich proc. It is impossible to get anything close to that on any other magicka toon I have. I think that NB passives are the strongest in the game and either need to be brought in line with other classes, or have other classes be brought up to their level.

Yes it is outrageous. 3.2k non-crit, 3.7k crit from a top geared Templar on someone with >50% health. Considering a heavy attack cancelled Dark Flare will hit you up to 3x times harder in roughly the same amount of time. If that gets through unchallenged, a double empowered Aurora Javelin will CC you immediately right after Dark Flare connects followed by Oppression. The guaranteed first tick will bury the majority of players. Even if they survive and can get up Healing Ward. The second tick will cancel the ward as its cast and the third tick will kill them before they can beat the global cooldown to use another ability. Basically you'll go from 100% to dead in half the time with very few options to counter. As opposed to casting RO on someone with 100% health and no prior control over their options to counter you. Althrough it has already been stated, RO leave your opponent several seconds to answer when doing something like above leaves them with tenths of second to correctly solve the puzzle of devastation your handing them.

Everything hits harder with 10-14k extra magicka.

I have no issue with NBs having the best passives. Every class has their own advantages and NBs have a disadvantage as well. Nobody needs to be nerfed, maybe DKs need alittle love because my opinion is Templars, NBs, and Sorcerers are all alittle more powerful than DKs right now.

Kilandros · March 2016

Still confused why we're comparing instant-cast executes that can be animation canceled to a channeled execute that cannot be animation canceled.

If the goal is to "bring to in line with other executes" (whatever that means, given that RD is, conceptually, entirely different than all other executes) then the ONLY viable solution is to make RD instant cast and able to be animation canceled.

That's it. Full stop. It's either a hard-hitting channel that can be interrupted or it isn't.

That being said, it should be left alone I think because it's mechanically interesting and distinct, and because I think it's one of the least offensive (read: disagreeable) skills in Cyrodiil (Hi Spambush!).

Zheg · March 2016

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

We're not saying nerf the damage, were saying rework the skill so that it works just like any other execute.

AND ADD A EXECUTE FOR MAG DK :C PLOX

As joy hinted at in his earlier post, sometimes for healers RD is the only available dps skill that can fit on their bar if theyre a healer that will allow them to actually contribute good damage. The intention of the skill certainly could have been to do mediocre damage even in non execute range because of the vulnerabilities it forces on the caster and because of the lack of room on a heal bar. how many nb pvp with impale again? None. Sorcs and temps have the best executes, maybe that's for a reason - maybe all of the other underperforming areas make up for a strong execute that makes DKs cranky because they can't reflect it and have to make a decision about whether to give up something on their bar to counter it.

And Jules was certainly saying to need the damage it does at higher HP.

Healers should have shards as a dps skill o.o. How many heals can you slot on 2 bars???

Healers slot shards as group stamina utility, not dps. It's awful to get it to land in lag, like most Templar skills.

I run 2 heals on my bars, if you don't include purify. Sometimes it's only breath, but on both bars because of how weapon swap responds in lag. The rest are buffs and utility for yourself or the group. Focus, purify, mist form, harness magicka, prox det - toss in a few buffs like radiant magelight and entropy, maybe repentance and/shards - doesn't leave much room for multiple healing skills. I've been forced to slot momentum or shuffle in this meta as well. There are not excess slots available, and if RD functioned like impale, no one would slot it.

Parafrost · March 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Parafrost wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It's called purge Jules. Will cost you about 3.1k magicka. You don't need a ranged interrupt or stun, you have purge as yet another counter option. If you're outnumbered and fighting at max range of the Templar, you should have ample LoS opportunities available to you, otherwise you engaged in a poor location. As joy said, in the situation you gave, better Templars will just DF you from max range. You can't heal, you take tons of damage, win - if it lands.

The truth is, everyone knows you love your DK, and the absurd reflect costing resources bug aside, you WANT the Templar to stay at max range and not be able to RD you because then the only counter you need is wings, and you're already slotting it. Using sweep is dangerous for Templars in this meta because of disengage issues, and your DK has a much more formidable house in melee range than my Templar. I feel like you picked such a bizarre balance topic because you can't pop an RD back at the Templar from range with wings, so you want it to be as minimal in dmg as possible unless you're in execute range and know you're going to die any way.

Slot purge, you should have it on your bar in this meta anyway. The entire scenario you gave above is now made moot.

We're not saying nerf the damage, were saying rework the skill so that it works just like any other execute.

AND ADD A EXECUTE FOR MAG DK :C PLOX

As joy hinted at in his earlier post, sometimes for healers RD is the only available dps skill that can fit on their bar if theyre a healer that will allow them to actually contribute good damage. The intention of the skill certainly could have been to do mediocre damage even in non execute range because of the vulnerabilities it forces on the caster and because of the lack of room on a heal bar. how many nb pvp with impale again? None. Sorcs and temps have the best executes, maybe that's for a reason - maybe all of the other underperforming areas make up for a strong execute that makes DKs cranky because they can't reflect it and have to make a decision about whether to give up something on their bar to counter it.

And Jules was certainly saying to need the damage it does at higher HP.

Healers should have shards as a dps skill o.o. How many heals can you slot on 2 bars???

Healers slot shards as group stamina utility, not dps. It's awful to get it to land in lag, like most Templar skills.

I run 2 heals on my bars, if you don't include purify. Sometimes it's only breath, but on both bars because of how weapon swap responds in lag. The rest are buffs and utility for yourself or the group. Focus, purify, mist form, harness magicka, prox det - toss in a few buffs like radiant magelight and entropy, maybe repentance and/shards - doesn't leave much room for multiple healing skills. I've been forced to slot momentum or shuffle in this meta as well. There are not excess slots available, and if RD functioned like impale, no one would slot it.

True. I dont want RD to be useless either in pvp. Maybe make it not channeled and still apply the dot effect? A DOT execute o.o Kind of like poison injection or whatever that bow skill is(not a bow user).

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Unfair comparison, Blaba used Entropy to get Empowerment first.

You can't empower RD, it's a dot. That was for spell damage buff only.

Well first of all tis a stupid ability and it is whether op or up.

U also shouldn't forget that its bashable, purgeable and cloakable, also interruptable via venom arrow or shock. U also dont have any protection using it, so when someone is on u and u channel like that, u are dead. No other ability takes those risks.

I am annoyed by the abuility but dont u need a certain cp set to reach that numbers? the future of pvp anyway is in the no cp campaigns since they dont lag even half as much as trueflame. RD doesn't hurt there.

U maybe can put ur effort into proxdet issues... that needs way more attention, there is a reason every magbuild is using it.

And you should show stats of everyone using his executioner... that is very important for precise testing.

Isn't killers blade magic dmg? If thats the case, a mag nb would have been better for this going for the magmorph.

But again, RD is whether overpowered or underpowered.

The issue with Proxy is that people are so used to running around with glass cannon builds in the middle or zergs spamming aoe that they don't know how to react or don't want to change their gear to actually put impen on so that proxy doesn't hit them for 10k+.

It's simple maths, gear properly for pvp proxy = 6-8k single target.

Don't gear for pvp, it will hurt, a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

Thats on impen and 50 resistant into cp.

You died to a curse/frag/det combo, Which everyone has been doing since 1.6. Is there a point, it only hit you 6.9k.

Sa/Wb/frag/Jabs/Flare/Curse/Concealed will hit harder. They don't have a 8s wait time either.

Also how much impen have you got, is it gold?

Surprise attack on a gankerbuild also hits u way harder than RD. 1sec and u die by a Nightblade if u dont see it coming. Anyone crying about that?
I dont defend RD but i think the effort regarding RD is a joke because there are way more things out there that are way worse and nobody cares about it since the majority is using them.

I play stamplar and i dont understand all the anger about it, im way more angry about the other hillarious stuff in this game.
If it was for Jules she would give everything in the game to dks after listening to some seconds of that "we are eso", speaking of stamwhip or the infinite reflect wings and everything that made dk the op it was in the past. Everything in this forum is so hyprocrite.

I see Templars getting nerfed again because the majority just wants it to be a healbot which heal should be nerfed because u cant kill 3 healing templars but its ok to have no chance against 3 nbs.

Frankly I'd rather we didn't have breath of life or that piece o' Poo healing ritual if it meant they could make the rest of our skill lines halfway decent. I'm tired of Templar balance being in the sewer 'because heals'.

Parafrost · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Unfair comparison, Blaba used Entropy to get Empowerment first.

You can't empower RD, it's a dot. That was for spell damage buff only.

Well first of all tis a stupid ability and it is whether op or up.

U also shouldn't forget that its bashable, purgeable and cloakable, also interruptable via venom arrow or shock. U also dont have any protection using it, so when someone is on u and u channel like that, u are dead. No other ability takes those risks.

I am annoyed by the abuility but dont u need a certain cp set to reach that numbers? the future of pvp anyway is in the no cp campaigns since they dont lag even half as much as trueflame. RD doesn't hurt there.

U maybe can put ur effort into proxdet issues... that needs way more attention, there is a reason every magbuild is using it.

And you should show stats of everyone using his executioner... that is very important for precise testing.

Isn't killers blade magic dmg? If thats the case, a mag nb would have been better for this going for the magmorph.

But again, RD is whether overpowered or underpowered.

The issue with Proxy is that people are so used to running around with glass cannon builds in the middle or zergs spamming aoe that they don't know how to react or don't want to change their gear to actually put impen on so that proxy doesn't hit them for 10k+.

It's simple maths, gear properly for pvp proxy = 6-8k single target.

Don't gear for pvp, it will hurt, a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

Thats on impen and 50 resistant into cp.

You died to a curse/frag/det combo, Which everyone has been doing since 1.6. Is there a point, it only hit you 6.9k.

Sa/Wb/frag/Jabs/Flare/Curse/Concealed will hit harder. They don't have a 8s wait time either.

Also how much impen have you got, is it gold?

Surprise attack on a gankerbuild also hits u way harder than RD. 1sec and u die by a Nightblade if u dont see it coming. Anyone crying about that?
I dont defend RD but i think the effort regarding RD is a joke because there are way more things out there that are way worse and nobody cares about it since the majority is using them.

I play stamplar and i dont understand all the anger about it, im way more angry about the other hillarious stuff in this game.
If it was for Jules she would give everything in the game to dks after listening to some seconds of that "we are eso", speaking of stamwhip or the infinite reflect wings and everything that made dk the op it was in the past. Everything in this forum is so hyprocrite.

I see Templars getting nerfed again because the majority just wants it to be a healbot which heal should be nerfed because u cant kill 3 healing templars but its ok to have no chance against 3 nbs.

Frankly I'd rather we didn't have breath of life or that piece o' Poo healing ritual if it meant they could make the rest of our skill lines halfway decent. I'm tired of Templar balance being in the sewer 'because heals'.

Wish they gave DKs and temps the Sorc treatment FeelsBadMan.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Unfair comparison, Blaba used Entropy to get Empowerment first.

You can't empower RD, it's a dot. That was for spell damage buff only.

Well first of all tis a stupid ability and it is whether op or up.

U also shouldn't forget that its bashable, purgeable and cloakable, also interruptable via venom arrow or shock. U also dont have any protection using it, so when someone is on u and u channel like that, u are dead. No other ability takes those risks.

I am annoyed by the abuility but dont u need a certain cp set to reach that numbers? the future of pvp anyway is in the no cp campaigns since they dont lag even half as much as trueflame. RD doesn't hurt there.

U maybe can put ur effort into proxdet issues... that needs way more attention, there is a reason every magbuild is using it.

And you should show stats of everyone using his executioner... that is very important for precise testing.

Isn't killers blade magic dmg? If thats the case, a mag nb would have been better for this going for the magmorph.

But again, RD is whether overpowered or underpowered.

The issue with Proxy is that people are so used to running around with glass cannon builds in the middle or zergs spamming aoe that they don't know how to react or don't want to change their gear to actually put impen on so that proxy doesn't hit them for 10k+.

It's simple maths, gear properly for pvp proxy = 6-8k single target.

Don't gear for pvp, it will hurt, a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

Thats on impen and 50 resistant into cp.

You died to a curse/frag/det combo, Which everyone has been doing since 1.6. Is there a point, it only hit you 6.9k.

Sa/Wb/frag/Jabs/Flare/Curse/Concealed will hit harder. They don't have a 8s wait time either.

Also how much impen have you got, is it gold?

Surprise attack on a gankerbuild also hits u way harder than RD. 1sec and u die by a Nightblade if u dont see it coming. Anyone crying about that?
I dont defend RD but i think the effort regarding RD is a joke because there are way more things out there that are way worse and nobody cares about it since the majority is using them.

I play stamplar and i dont understand all the anger about it, im way more angry about the other hillarious stuff in this game.
If it was for Jules she would give everything in the game to dks after listening to some seconds of that "we are eso", speaking of stamwhip or the infinite reflect wings and everything that made dk the op it was in the past. Everything in this forum is so hyprocrite.

The dk does still have it's problems though, whip still hits like a wet noodle it needs a general dmg buff, or even give it the major fracture that Sa has ti increase it's dmg in some way...

Jabs needs fracture if whip gets fracture.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Funny how none of this was really an issue before the crapeon system introduced us to the stack damage and burst meta. Outside of a few exploits, (and after stealth damage and buff stacking was nerfed), and the infamous "wall of facemelting" we didn't have to deal with outrageous damage like this.

You can complain about individual skills being strong all day and try to get ZOS to individually balance every skill, or you can reject the champion system and all its lies and empty promises and go back to the meta of resource management instead of infinite resources, stacking mitigation and burst. The whole game would be better for it and we would have a lot less nerf cries every time ZOS re-balances the champion system,

#PopulateAzuras
#DeleteChampionSystem
#MuhProgressunz

Or they could at least bring back the overcharge system?

hammayolettuce · March 2016

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner. The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

Parafrost · March 2016

Guys Radiant is not the problem, double Atro is

latest?cb=20121112150543

Zheg · March 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner. The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

Mages fury is far better than RD in group play because of the aoe and ability to burst but still have control of your character. I'd also highly consider Mage fury over RD so I had one less cast/channel on my magplar, if given the option. But alas, we won't get that.

1.6 it was bugged and doing far more damage than intended; Id hardly call that the same thing. It's the SAME damage as last patch, bar CP tweaks and not being able to dodge it. Where were all of you during orsinium or IC? Playing stam characters and using shuffle/dodge/vigor and being able laugh the skill off because you could dodge it.

When I hit someone at high health with it, it's usually because wep swap was royally effed in lag, and I end up canceling it because it makes me vulnerable and does crap damage, not the 'same overpowered broken bs' as 1.6.

It's hilarious watching non Templars attack RD because they can't do the same overpowered broken bs they did last patch and being able to dodge away at 15% hp and instantly heal up.

AfkNinja · March 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner.
You know for a fact it is not 100x better.

The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes. It scales higher because it leaves you vulnerable and paints you as a target.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

As has been shown in EVERY one of these threads it is a DPS LOSS at 100% HP. Seriously you should be thanking them for using it on you at 100% cause Jabs or DF will hit 2x as hard till ~35%.

Also it is not JUST an execute, it is meant to be a low dps alternative for healers and against foes that reflect everything else you do. I don't even use it as I am a Stamplar and I don't have trouble stopping people from using it. If you are complaining because 2-3 templar's used it on you WHY? 2-3 players zerging 1 will always result in a tough situation. You guys are blowing RD WAY out of proportion.

I mean seriously 3.5k-4k dps is OP to you at 100% HP? You can't purge, LOS, interrupt or CC? You can't use absorb magic to nullify it?

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · March 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time.

*

THERE IT IS!!! I die to it, we gotta nerf it. Only Templar executes are not supposed to kill you. Got it!

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner. The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

You are in dreamland. I would expect 99.9999% of Templar magicka builds (Which I'm not currently one of unless you count a level 15 bwb character) would PREFER to have RD be an instant cast execute like every other class gets. Your problem is that you don't know how good you have it as a non Templar. If it is so awesome, go level a Templar up and show us how great your skills are. I highly doubt that the FOTM crowd are abandoning their NB's and Sorcs to go play a Magplar. Lets get real here.

Parafrost · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Radiant is 100x better than mages fury or impale or executioner. The skill needs to not scale the way it does or go back to being dodgable. There is no reason an execute does so much dmg at 100% health and then scales 2x or more as much dmg in execute range than the other executes.

In pvp all i see on my death log at a minimum is radiant every time. Its hilarious watching templars defend radiant just like they did in 1.6 when it was doing the exact same overpowered broken bs.

*

You are in dreamland. I would expect 99.9999% of Templar magicka builds (Which I'm not currently one of unless you count a level 15 bwb character) would PREFER to have RD be an instant cast execute like every other class gets. Your problem is that you don't know how good you have it as a non Templar. If it is so awesome, go level a Templar up and show us how great your skills are. I highly doubt that the FOTM crowd are abandoning their NB's and Sorcs to go play a Magplar. Lets get real here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqo-T9csmiI

Elong · March 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jules -

A templar will do 50% more damage using Dark Flare or Puncturing Sweeps than they will with RD. Not just that. If I am using Sweeps, it's an AoE, I am getting healed, you are getting snared, it is not getting interrupted. If I am using Flare, you are getting heal debuffed, my next attack is getting empowered, it's perhaps the hardest hitting skill in the game delivered all at once. A Templar who using RD when their opponent is over 50% health is either a moron, a poor player, an inexperienced player, or just looking to vulture a kill against another player getting zerged down who was going to die anyway.

I have been using this skill for a year and have had it used against me. I know when to use it and what to do if used against me. I will tell you if a templar uses this skill against a competent opponent above 35% who is not CCed or has their health dropping like a rock due to damage from other players, it is a poor choice to make.

As for why RD does "so much damage" to you at high health, that's because you are just standing there AFK with mediocre spell resist against a seasoned player who has tailored his build to maximize magic damage. It's Cyrodiil. Look at your own build. Are you kidding me? 46K magica, 3.6K spell damage, 4.2K regen. The fact of the matter is if anyone half-competent uses just about any skill against an AFK player, they will melt. Except pretty much instant-cast executes. Which you unfairly used as a comparison. How is this so hard to figure out? We still have 25K health just like the beginning of 1.6, the resistance cap and mechanics are still the same with respect to magic mitigation, yet damage has climbed through the roof.

If you are going to claim that a spell that does 50% less damage while placing the caster in a vulnerable position than alternatives that have very desirable complementary effects is over-performing, I am going to resoundingly disagree with you. Every time. And be confident that I am more than justified in taking a position that is objective and not clouded by class bias or personal agenda.

To me, the proof is not is misleading screenshots, edited videos, or even good/unbiased theorycrafting on paper. It is how experienced and good templars actually use this skill in competitive situations. There are times I actually stop using this skill via canceling and move onto a more suitable option because the spell is a poor choice to use against opponents over 50% health. Maybe people think I'm zerg-baddie and don't met that standard. Whatever. Most of the templars that people consider "good" use the spell in a similar manner that I do. For a year templars have been desperately trying to Jesus Beam me to sneak in a killing blow regardless of what my health is. Way way way more often then not, they fail and I am grateful they chose to use a skill you claim is over-performing rather than more sound options appropriate for the situation.

100% spot on. If you want to know Templar, talk to Joy.