Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Rather than nitpick examples again, I think I'll address your overall concern: That a slider would basically throw things out of balance in unexpected ways. I get it.

But I'm still willing to take this risk in order to make the game even playable. As it stands now everything is unbalanced in the player's favor, as you can see in the video. I had about 3 hours or so played on the Nightblade character, none of which have been even remotely exciting.

I think I died once because at level 4, with no gear, I was trying to solo a level 10 elite boss. It took me a few tries, but I beat him. To me *this* is interesting gameplay, and I don't see why other bosses can't be like this, instead of the pushovers they are now.

If I were geared and had a level 10 character, that boss would would have lasted about 4 seconds instead. Why? Because of the numbers, and ONLY because of the numbers.

You (and others) have argued that difficulty is more than just numbers. I of course agree with you. But in ESO's case I think that is the major problem right now.

They already have a decent combat system in place, with things like blocking, dodge rolling, positioning and LoS to consider. Furthermore, the "difficulty" or challenge in this kind of game also comes from the necessity to pay attention to your character's skill choices, your professions, your stats (health magicka stamina), your perks, your gear choices, and so forth.

However all this "challenge" is thrown out the window, simply because the numbers are so incredibly skewed in the player's favor (i.e. you kill things too quickly and take barely any damage) that all these choices are essentially meaningless; they are just aesthetic fluff.

Should I use a 2h axe or two 1h swords? Who cares. When you attack that NPC your choice will be meaningless, because it will die within 3 seconds anyways. So the only question is, which one looks cooler?

So yes, I really think that in the case of ESO it really is all about the numbers. The rest will take care of itself.

And if this occasionally throws things out of balance to make the game more unpredictable and occasionally frustrating, I would welcome this change of pace with open arms.

Can't say I found it that exiting and fun in ESO during the beta and launch, to find myself going through monsters in the beginning, only to get killed the next time for reasons. Unbalance in difficulty is about as bad as you can get it, it's no fun when it's too easy, it's no fun when it's too difficult in an unfair way. You'd risk the game to be as unplayable as you claim it to be now. I have a couple of quests I haven't done in a couple of the vet zones because the monster in question - the famous Storm Antronach - is in a close of part of a dungeon that only those with the quest can enter, and at the time I was doing it, I was rather alone, so it wasn't possible at that time for me to kill him. How fun is it when a quest becomes unplayable because the monster you're suppose to kill, just kills you more or less instantly?

I get the point across, you want it difficult, we don't disagree on that part. I agree that the game has become too easy in certain parts. But then again, we have also learned the game. Would you take damage if you ran in and didn't use your dodge? I've tested it and you certainly do, but we know how to avoid it.

There are ways to make the game more difficult of your own choosing if you like. In WoW per example, they've made the "Iron man challenge", with a certain set of rules, to make the game more challenging in levelling zones. I think that's the best solution for now as well, because a sliding difficulty is relatively difficult to implement in an MMO (which is why in the name of MMOs it's never been done).

Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

I appreciate the response, but it seems we're once again stuck in the same argument, unfortunately.

It's not for YOU to decide what would be fun for ME. YOU say that this kind of difficulty would make the game not fun and practically unplayable. I am telling you, no, I would not. I would absolutely LOVE this.

That storm atronach is kicking my butt for "reasons" and there's nothing I can do about it? Too. Freaking. Bad.

I'll have to bang my head against it until I find a way to win; recruit some friends (OMG something in a Massive Multiplayer Online game requires other players online?); wait until I get better gear and/or level; or just skip that content altogether until I can come back one day after I've outleveled it or found some friends to try again.

Then I can spit on that atronach's smoking corpse. I can't explain to you the gratification that comes from repeatedly losing to a game, then beating it. Some of you know what I mean already, and many of you probably don't, especially if you're born after 2003 when 98% of video games have free wins built into them.

I'll repeat myself, I would GLADLY accept the occasional "broken" encounters who roflstomp me for no reason, other than the fact that they hit way too hard and I"m just too weak. Kind of like that Fel Reaver that WoW used to have in the opening zone of TBC (anyone who remembers this and got stomped while questing will remember how impossible that guy was to fight unless you either outleveled it or brought a huge group). It added unpredictability and danger to that zone, knowing that at any time that thing could patrol by and end your miserable life.

Finally, your point about the Ironman Challenge in WoW... I know about this, but if you look into that "challenge", all it does is effectively prohibit the player from participating in about 95% of the game's base content. Everything that makes an RPG interesting - stats, skills, gear, talents, economy, etc etc etc... is effectively banned, so that you are basically just grinding using a few buttons.

I WANT to wear gear. I WANT to craft weapons and armor. I WANT to use fun, interesting talents and abilities. I WANT to use enchantments, buffs, etc and feel like it makes a difference. It's a great feeling in this type of game when you work hard to craft or farm an item you've sought after to get that edge. But the ironman challenge kills that.

I remember the first time I ever found a pair of plain, white shoulderpads in WoW, it was an exciting moment. My character was relatively squishy, and the NPCs hurt me when they attacked. That 23 armor rating was a HUGE help, and I was ecstatic. When I finally crafted (with Leatherworking) my first item that actually had stats, I was like... "yes! +2 agility! This will help!"

But in WoW today, and in almost all MMOs I know about, all of these items and stats are almost useless. That 2 agility changes almost nothing in WoW, just like that sword being upgraded from green to blue quality at the forge will make almost no difference in any of the outcomes while questing, because all the monsters are such blatant pushovers as to make those upgrades meaningless.

I could as well draw the same question; Why should the game be moulded around what YOU find fun? I'm not however stating how you should play, but trying to tell you that the game does consist of more than just you and me, and balancing the game out from those experienced isn't good for those that are new to the game. That's my entire point; The balance has to be set out from the perspective of a new player, just joining the game.

I've been a gamer for around 27-28 years now, started out with the NES, and I've played my share of difficult game, so I'm very much aware of the gratification of overcoming a difficult challenge, but it's also rather difficult to maintain that difficulty when you're experienced and know the game. Per example, when I first played Ninja Gaiden, the game was "impossible", it couldn't be done. I played it though, several times over. The game isn't "easy", but it's "easier" for me now since I've played it, know what monsters do what, how to encounter what things. That's the same for all games, they can be difficult, until you've played them enough to master them, or counter what is thrown your way. You will never be able to get that level of difficulty back once you've "learned" the game. You can however get challenged in other ways, such as raids, dungeons or various other activities within the game. And designing "difficulty" around a monster being unbalanced is just poor game design, you don't add difficulty that way, unbalance doesn't belong in designing difficulty.

Games do change and they've become more main stream than before, with a whole lot higher budgets, so they have to be "easy", to get new players in. That's just how things have changed. The difficulty can be added on a later stage in the game, and that's a department Zenimax can work some more on, per example add raids instead of trials. But for the level 1 to 50 experience, I think it's OK that it's easy, because you can't add difficulty out from people that are experienced. If they are to do that, they need several more systems in place.

Why should the game be moulded around what YOU find fun?

The balance has to be set out from the perspective of a new player, just joining the game.

Selstad wrote: »

And as I've said; balancing that "optional" debuff, would be a pain in the royal hindquarters. Some monsters would be difficult, others would be insanely impossible to kill while others wouldn't even been noticed as any more difficult. It would be even more imbalanced than it is today, and that's no fun either.

As for the NES era; Of course the games were hard, but look at speedrunners. Point here is that the difficulty is partially subjective, and changes depending on your knowledge of and insight in the game you're playing. The more you play it, the more it becomes "easy". How long do you think it would take before that "hard" difficulty would be easy? And you'd cry out for a "harder" difficulty? Eventually you'd run into "easy" even on hard mode, simply because you know the game. That's something a single system "difficulty" slider can't change, there has to be several layers on the difficulty that both rewards and punishes, as I've said before. It doesn't help with just a "debuff", thinking that is a magical solution that would automatically make the game a lot more difficult. It's a lot better to do a job proper, than slapping on some half hearted paste and consider it a job well done.

Selstad wrote: »

The thing is, if the developers are going to put something in the game, it needs to be something that's functional for the masses, something people will use. If it's for only a few, it's a waste of money. The content developed needs to be favouring as many as possible, simply because of money.

Why is this important? Because if you can't convince the developers that it's something most people would like, it's never going to be anything other than wishful thinking. I don't disagree on the fundamentals, what I disagree upon is the implementation, because I see it as too imperfect and not balanced enough to be functional for most people.

We don't disagree on difficulty, I wouldn't mind that either, but I might be too ambitious, challenging the implementations for them to be thought through, changed and perfected to a degree that the chances for it getting implemented, are a lot higher. Just look at the changes they've done to the game since its release, due to popular demands. Many a good idea are used in one form or fashion, but it's like a sales pitch. You need to play on the buyer's half of the field, and that's when you're most likely to score a goal

Vigarr wrote: »

It's always amusing when I read about someone saying a game is too easy and want the game to accommodate them...they're usually at max skills with best gear whining about no challenge.

If you want things harder then make them hard...reset your skills and health/stam/magic points then put on level 1 gear. If that's too extreme then wear level 10 gear and spent 10 points. (you get the idea, the choice is there to make things hard for yourself)