Game sorely needs a difficulty slider, it's just too damn boring to quest.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Arreyanne wrote: »

Thats a great Idea for the way you want to play. However I want to get through 1-50 as fast as possible. Everytime some place is discovered that increases XP per hour ZeniMax nerfs the crap out of it.

Take the sewers Skevers used be 500 XP each now they are 20 XP each.

So if they wont let me play the way I want why should you get preferred treatment? Just asking, what makes you a special snowflake

Because difficulty and grinding adds for CP's/levels are comparable..... Seriously, if you want to just grind adds may I suggest games where the main thing is to slaughter waves upon waves of 1-shot mobs like left 4 dead etc. I mean, skipping 95% of the content is just bad.

Humatiel

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Arreyanne wrote: »

Thats a great Idea for the way you want to play. However I want to get through 1-50 as fast as possible. Everytime some place is discovered that increases XP per hour ZeniMax nerfs the crap out of it.

Take the sewers Skevers used be 500 XP each now they are 20 XP each.

So if they wont let me play the way I want why should you get preferred treatment? Just asking, what makes you a special snowflake

Because difficulty and grinding adds for CP's/levels are comparable..... Seriously, if you want to just grind adds may I suggest games where the main thing is to slaughter waves upon waves of 1-shot mobs like left 4 dead etc. I mean, skipping 95% of the content is just bad.

I believe you may be missing the point, it should be the players choice to grind or not.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Humatiel wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Arreyanne wrote: »

Thats a great Idea for the way you want to play. However I want to get through 1-50 as fast as possible. Everytime some place is discovered that increases XP per hour ZeniMax nerfs the crap out of it.

Take the sewers Skevers used be 500 XP each now they are 20 XP each.

So if they wont let me play the way I want why should you get preferred treatment? Just asking, what makes you a special snowflake

Because difficulty and grinding adds for CP's/levels are comparable..... Seriously, if you want to just grind adds may I suggest games where the main thing is to slaughter waves upon waves of 1-shot mobs like left 4 dead etc. I mean, skipping 95% of the content is just bad.

I believe you may be missing the point, it should be the players choice to grind or not.

And those people still can grind, can't they? I know for a fact people grind IC and wrothgar public dungeons for exp, so they still got places to do that.

Eshelmen

Complete the story with your bare hands while being naked. End of problem.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Eshelmen wrote: »

Complete the story with your bare hands while being naked. End of problem.

Or they can raise the difficulty back to where it used to be so people would have to L2P, end of story, right?

Lolssi

Longer combat sound more boring to me. Plus I like that enemies drop with few hits like they should, makes me actually feel like an assassin

Selstad

Dahveed wrote: »

Rather than nitpick examples again, I think I'll address your overall concern: That a slider would basically throw things out of balance in unexpected ways. I get it.

But I'm still willing to take this risk in order to make the game even playable. As it stands now everything is unbalanced in the player's favor, as you can see in the video. I had about 3 hours or so played on the Nightblade character, none of which have been even remotely exciting.

I think I died once because at level 4, with no gear, I was trying to solo a level 10 elite boss. It took me a few tries, but I beat him. To me *this* is interesting gameplay, and I don't see why other bosses can't be like this, instead of the pushovers they are now.

If I were geared and had a level 10 character, that boss would would have lasted about 4 seconds instead. Why? Because of the numbers, and ONLY because of the numbers.

You (and others) have argued that difficulty is more than just numbers. I of course agree with you. But in ESO's case I think that is the major problem right now.

They already have a decent combat system in place, with things like blocking, dodge rolling, positioning and LoS to consider. Furthermore, the "difficulty" or challenge in this kind of game also comes from the necessity to pay attention to your character's skill choices, your professions, your stats (health magicka stamina), your perks, your gear choices, and so forth.

However all this "challenge" is thrown out the window, simply because the numbers are so incredibly skewed in the player's favor (i.e. you kill things too quickly and take barely any damage) that all these choices are essentially meaningless; they are just aesthetic fluff.

Should I use a 2h axe or two 1h swords? Who cares. When you attack that NPC your choice will be meaningless, because it will die within 3 seconds anyways. So the only question is, which one looks cooler?

So yes, I really think that in the case of ESO it really is all about the numbers. The rest will take care of itself.

And if this occasionally throws things out of balance to make the game more unpredictable and occasionally frustrating, I would welcome this change of pace with open arms.

Can't say I found it that exiting and fun in ESO during the beta and launch, to find myself going through monsters in the beginning, only to get killed the next time for reasons. Unbalance in difficulty is about as bad as you can get it, it's no fun when it's too easy, it's no fun when it's too difficult in an unfair way. You'd risk the game to be as unplayable as you claim it to be now. I have a couple of quests I haven't done in a couple of the vet zones because the monster in question - the famous Storm Antronach - is in a close of part of a dungeon that only those with the quest can enter, and at the time I was doing it, I was rather alone, so it wasn't possible at that time for me to kill him. How fun is it when a quest becomes unplayable because the monster you're suppose to kill, just kills you more or less instantly?

I get the point across, you want it difficult, we don't disagree on that part. I agree that the game has become too easy in certain parts. But then again, we have also learned the game. Would you take damage if you ran in and didn't use your dodge? I've tested it and you certainly do, but we know how to avoid it.

There are ways to make the game more difficult of your own choosing if you like. In WoW per example, they've made the "Iron man challenge", with a certain set of rules, to make the game more challenging in levelling zones. I think that's the best solution for now as well, because a sliding difficulty is relatively difficult to implement in an MMO (which is why in the name of MMOs it's never been done).

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Rather than nitpick examples again, I think I'll address your overall concern: That a slider would basically throw things out of balance in unexpected ways. I get it.

But I'm still willing to take this risk in order to make the game even playable. As it stands now everything is unbalanced in the player's favor, as you can see in the video. I had about 3 hours or so played on the Nightblade character, none of which have been even remotely exciting.

I think I died once because at level 4, with no gear, I was trying to solo a level 10 elite boss. It took me a few tries, but I beat him. To me *this* is interesting gameplay, and I don't see why other bosses can't be like this, instead of the pushovers they are now.

If I were geared and had a level 10 character, that boss would would have lasted about 4 seconds instead. Why? Because of the numbers, and ONLY because of the numbers.

You (and others) have argued that difficulty is more than just numbers. I of course agree with you. But in ESO's case I think that is the major problem right now.

They already have a decent combat system in place, with things like blocking, dodge rolling, positioning and LoS to consider. Furthermore, the "difficulty" or challenge in this kind of game also comes from the necessity to pay attention to your character's skill choices, your professions, your stats (health magicka stamina), your perks, your gear choices, and so forth.

However all this "challenge" is thrown out the window, simply because the numbers are so incredibly skewed in the player's favor (i.e. you kill things too quickly and take barely any damage) that all these choices are essentially meaningless; they are just aesthetic fluff.

Should I use a 2h axe or two 1h swords? Who cares. When you attack that NPC your choice will be meaningless, because it will die within 3 seconds anyways. So the only question is, which one looks cooler?

So yes, I really think that in the case of ESO it really is all about the numbers. The rest will take care of itself.

And if this occasionally throws things out of balance to make the game more unpredictable and occasionally frustrating, I would welcome this change of pace with open arms.

Can't say I found it that exiting and fun in ESO during the beta and launch, to find myself going through monsters in the beginning, only to get killed the next time for reasons. Unbalance in difficulty is about as bad as you can get it, it's no fun when it's too easy, it's no fun when it's too difficult in an unfair way. You'd risk the game to be as unplayable as you claim it to be now. I have a couple of quests I haven't done in a couple of the vet zones because the monster in question - the famous Storm Antronach - is in a close of part of a dungeon that only those with the quest can enter, and at the time I was doing it, I was rather alone, so it wasn't possible at that time for me to kill him. How fun is it when a quest becomes unplayable because the monster you're suppose to kill, just kills you more or less instantly?

I get the point across, you want it difficult, we don't disagree on that part. I agree that the game has become too easy in certain parts. But then again, we have also learned the game. Would you take damage if you ran in and didn't use your dodge? I've tested it and you certainly do, but we know how to avoid it.

There are ways to make the game more difficult of your own choosing if you like. In WoW per example, they've made the "Iron man challenge", with a certain set of rules, to make the game more challenging in levelling zones. I think that's the best solution for now as well, because a sliding difficulty is relatively difficult to implement in an MMO (which is why in the name of MMOs it's never been done).

I appreciate the response, but it seems we're once again stuck in the same argument, unfortunately.

It's not for YOU to decide what would be fun for ME. YOU say that this kind of difficulty would make the game not fun and practically unplayable. I am telling you, no, I would not. I would absolutely LOVE this.

That storm atronach is kicking my butt for "reasons" and there's nothing I can do about it? Too. Freaking. Bad.

I'll have to bang my head against it until I find a way to win; recruit some friends (OMG something in a Massive Multiplayer Online game requires other players online?); wait until I get better gear and/or level; or just skip that content altogether until I can come back one day after I've outleveled it or found some friends to try again.

Then I can spit on that atronach's smoking corpse. I can't explain to you the gratification that comes from repeatedly losing to a game, then beating it. Some of you know what I mean already, and many of you probably don't, especially if you're born after 2003 when 98% of video games have free wins built into them.

I'll repeat myself, I would GLADLY accept the occasional "broken" encounters who roflstomp me for no reason, other than the fact that they hit way too hard and I"m just too weak. Kind of like that Fel Reaver that WoW used to have in the opening zone of TBC (anyone who remembers this and got stomped while questing will remember how impossible that guy was to fight unless you either outleveled it or brought a huge group). It added unpredictability and danger to that zone, knowing that at any time that thing could patrol by and end your miserable life.

Finally, your point about the Ironman Challenge in WoW... I know about this, but if you look into that "challenge", all it does is effectively prohibit the player from participating in about 95% of the game's base content. Everything that makes an RPG interesting - stats, skills, gear, talents, economy, etc etc etc... is effectively banned, so that you are basically just grinding using a few buttons.

I WANT to wear gear. I WANT to craft weapons and armor. I WANT to use fun, interesting talents and abilities. I WANT to use enchantments, buffs, etc and feel like it makes a difference. It's a great feeling in this type of game when you work hard to craft or farm an item you've sought after to get that edge. But the ironman challenge kills that.

I remember the first time I ever found a pair of plain, white shoulderpads in WoW, it was an exciting moment. My character was relatively squishy, and the NPCs hurt me when they attacked. That 23 armor rating was a HUGE help, and I was ecstatic. When I finally crafted (with Leatherworking) my first item that actually had stats, I was like... "yes! +2 agility! This will help!"

But in WoW today, and in almost all MMOs I know about, all of these items and stats are almost useless. That 2 agility changes almost nothing in WoW, just like that sword being upgraded from green to blue quality at the forge will make almost no difference in any of the outcomes while questing, because all the monsters are such blatant pushovers as to make those upgrades meaningless.

Selstad

Dahveed wrote: »

I appreciate the response, but it seems we're once again stuck in the same argument, unfortunately.

It's not for YOU to decide what would be fun for ME. YOU say that this kind of difficulty would make the game not fun and practically unplayable. I am telling you, no, I would not. I would absolutely LOVE this.

That storm atronach is kicking my butt for "reasons" and there's nothing I can do about it? Too. Freaking. Bad.

I'll have to bang my head against it until I find a way to win; recruit some friends (OMG something in a Massive Multiplayer Online game requires other players online?); wait until I get better gear and/or level; or just skip that content altogether until I can come back one day after I've outleveled it or found some friends to try again.

Then I can spit on that atronach's smoking corpse. I can't explain to you the gratification that comes from repeatedly losing to a game, then beating it. Some of you know what I mean already, and many of you probably don't, especially if you're born after 2003 when 98% of video games have free wins built into them.

I'll repeat myself, I would GLADLY accept the occasional "broken" encounters who roflstomp me for no reason, other than the fact that they hit way too hard and I"m just too weak. Kind of like that Fel Reaver that WoW used to have in the opening zone of TBC (anyone who remembers this and got stomped while questing will remember how impossible that guy was to fight unless you either outleveled it or brought a huge group). It added unpredictability and danger to that zone, knowing that at any time that thing could patrol by and end your miserable life.

Finally, your point about the Ironman Challenge in WoW... I know about this, but if you look into that "challenge", all it does is effectively prohibit the player from participating in about 95% of the game's base content. Everything that makes an RPG interesting - stats, skills, gear, talents, economy, etc etc etc... is effectively banned, so that you are basically just grinding using a few buttons.

I WANT to wear gear. I WANT to craft weapons and armor. I WANT to use fun, interesting talents and abilities. I WANT to use enchantments, buffs, etc and feel like it makes a difference. It's a great feeling in this type of game when you work hard to craft or farm an item you've sought after to get that edge. But the ironman challenge kills that.

I remember the first time I ever found a pair of plain, white shoulderpads in WoW, it was an exciting moment. My character was relatively squishy, and the NPCs hurt me when they attacked. That 23 armor rating was a HUGE help, and I was ecstatic. When I finally crafted (with Leatherworking) my first item that actually had stats, I was like... "yes! +2 agility! This will help!"

But in WoW today, and in almost all MMOs I know about, all of these items and stats are almost useless. That 2 agility changes almost nothing in WoW, just like that sword being upgraded from green to blue quality at the forge will make almost no difference in any of the outcomes while questing, because all the monsters are such blatant pushovers as to make those upgrades meaningless.

I could as well draw the same question; Why should the game be moulded around what YOU find fun? I'm not however stating how you should play, but trying to tell you that the game does consist of more than just you and me, and balancing the game out from those experienced isn't good for those that are new to the game. That's my entire point; The balance has to be set out from the perspective of a new player, just joining the game.

I've been a gamer for around 27-28 years now, started out with the NES, and I've played my share of difficult game, so I'm very much aware of the gratification of overcoming a difficult challenge, but it's also rather difficult to maintain that difficulty when you're experienced and know the game. Per example, when I first played Ninja Gaiden, the game was "impossible", it couldn't be done. I played it though, several times over. The game isn't "easy", but it's "easier" for me now since I've played it, know what monsters do what, how to encounter what things. That's the same for all games, they can be difficult, until you've played them enough to master them, or counter what is thrown your way. You will never be able to get that level of difficulty back once you've "learned" the game. You can however get challenged in other ways, such as raids, dungeons or various other activities within the game. And designing "difficulty" around a monster being unbalanced is just poor game design, you don't add difficulty that way, unbalance doesn't belong in designing difficulty.

Games do change and they've become more main stream than before, with a whole lot higher budgets, so they have to be "easy", to get new players in. That's just how things have changed. The difficulty can be added on a later stage in the game, and that's a department Zenimax can work some more on, per example add raids instead of trials. But for the level 1 to 50 experience, I think it's OK that it's easy, because you can't add difficulty out from people that are experienced. If they are to do that, they need several more systems in place.

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

I appreciate the response, but it seems we're once again stuck in the same argument, unfortunately.

It's not for YOU to decide what would be fun for ME. YOU say that this kind of difficulty would make the game not fun and practically unplayable. I am telling you, no, I would not. I would absolutely LOVE this.

That storm atronach is kicking my butt for "reasons" and there's nothing I can do about it? Too. Freaking. Bad.

I'll have to bang my head against it until I find a way to win; recruit some friends (OMG something in a Massive Multiplayer Online game requires other players online?); wait until I get better gear and/or level; or just skip that content altogether until I can come back one day after I've outleveled it or found some friends to try again.

Then I can spit on that atronach's smoking corpse. I can't explain to you the gratification that comes from repeatedly losing to a game, then beating it. Some of you know what I mean already, and many of you probably don't, especially if you're born after 2003 when 98% of video games have free wins built into them.

I'll repeat myself, I would GLADLY accept the occasional "broken" encounters who roflstomp me for no reason, other than the fact that they hit way too hard and I"m just too weak. Kind of like that Fel Reaver that WoW used to have in the opening zone of TBC (anyone who remembers this and got stomped while questing will remember how impossible that guy was to fight unless you either outleveled it or brought a huge group). It added unpredictability and danger to that zone, knowing that at any time that thing could patrol by and end your miserable life.

Finally, your point about the Ironman Challenge in WoW... I know about this, but if you look into that "challenge", all it does is effectively prohibit the player from participating in about 95% of the game's base content. Everything that makes an RPG interesting - stats, skills, gear, talents, economy, etc etc etc... is effectively banned, so that you are basically just grinding using a few buttons.

I WANT to wear gear. I WANT to craft weapons and armor. I WANT to use fun, interesting talents and abilities. I WANT to use enchantments, buffs, etc and feel like it makes a difference. It's a great feeling in this type of game when you work hard to craft or farm an item you've sought after to get that edge. But the ironman challenge kills that.

I remember the first time I ever found a pair of plain, white shoulderpads in WoW, it was an exciting moment. My character was relatively squishy, and the NPCs hurt me when they attacked. That 23 armor rating was a HUGE help, and I was ecstatic. When I finally crafted (with Leatherworking) my first item that actually had stats, I was like... "yes! +2 agility! This will help!"

But in WoW today, and in almost all MMOs I know about, all of these items and stats are almost useless. That 2 agility changes almost nothing in WoW, just like that sword being upgraded from green to blue quality at the forge will make almost no difference in any of the outcomes while questing, because all the monsters are such blatant pushovers as to make those upgrades meaningless.

I could as well draw the same question; Why should the game be moulded around what YOU find fun? I'm not however stating how you should play, but trying to tell you that the game does consist of more than just you and me, and balancing the game out from those experienced isn't good for those that are new to the game. That's my entire point; The balance has to be set out from the perspective of a new player, just joining the game.

I've been a gamer for around 27-28 years now, started out with the NES, and I've played my share of difficult game, so I'm very much aware of the gratification of overcoming a difficult challenge, but it's also rather difficult to maintain that difficulty when you're experienced and know the game. Per example, when I first played Ninja Gaiden, the game was "impossible", it couldn't be done. I played it though, several times over. The game isn't "easy", but it's "easier" for me now since I've played it, know what monsters do what, how to encounter what things. That's the same for all games, they can be difficult, until you've played them enough to master them, or counter what is thrown your way. You will never be able to get that level of difficulty back once you've "learned" the game. You can however get challenged in other ways, such as raids, dungeons or various other activities within the game. And designing "difficulty" around a monster being unbalanced is just poor game design, you don't add difficulty that way, unbalance doesn't belong in designing difficulty.

Games do change and they've become more main stream than before, with a whole lot higher budgets, so they have to be "easy", to get new players in. That's just how things have changed. The difficulty can be added on a later stage in the game, and that's a department Zenimax can work some more on, per example add raids instead of trials. But for the level 1 to 50 experience, I think it's OK that it's easy, because you can't add difficulty out from people that are experienced. If they are to do that, they need several more systems in place.

I think you've really missed an important point. Not sure how you missed this. You say this:

Why should the game be moulded around what YOU find fun?

But the entire point of this thread is to create an OPTIONAL debuff. The game will not be changed at all for any player who doesn't want to participate in increasing the difficulty. If you cannot understand this point, then there is no way I will convince you of anything from now on.

The balance has to be set out from the perspective of a new player, just joining the game.

Which is precisely why nothing at all would be affected by an OPTIONAL increase in difficulty, for veteran gamers who actively seek a challenge. A new player probably wouldn't even be aware that he had the option to increase the difficulty, and would play the game as originally balanced.

Finally, I just want to say that comparing ESO to Ninja Gaiden in terms of difficulty really lost you a lot of credibility. I started gaming back in the days of Pac Man, and when Sega Master System and NES came out it was a revolution. And the games WERE hard... Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, Battle Toads, Ninja Turtles... I could list a LOT of them.

To compare ESO's "difficulty" to any of these games is truly embarrassing, sorry. ESO is instantly easy, and I was instantly rolling over everything in this game as soon as I logged in about 6 months ago. Clicking on an NPC and pressing a button, then pressing another button, and *gasp* perhaps pressing that button a third time, is not even in the same dimension of difficulty as beating a game like Ninja Gaiden.

Selstad

And as I've said; balancing that "optional" debuff, would be a pain in the royal hindquarters. Some monsters would be difficult, others would be insanely impossible to kill while others wouldn't even been noticed as any more difficult. It would be even more imbalanced than it is today, and that's no fun either.

As for the NES era; Of course the games were hard, but look at speedrunners. Point here is that the difficulty is partially subjective, and changes depending on your knowledge of and insight in the game you're playing. The more you play it, the more it becomes "easy". How long do you think it would take before that "hard" difficulty would be easy? And you'd cry out for a "harder" difficulty? Eventually you'd run into "easy" even on hard mode, simply because you know the game. That's something a single system "difficulty" slider can't change, there has to be several layers on the difficulty that both rewards and punishes, as I've said before. It doesn't help with just a "debuff", thinking that is a magical solution that would automatically make the game a lot more difficult. It's a lot better to do a job proper, than slapping on some half hearted paste and consider it a job well done.

Palidon

In the earlier days of ESO the complaints were the game was too hard. Now its too easy. I think there are players in this game who just look for something to whine about no matter what it is. Please give me a break and just play the game. If you think its too easy then find another game to play.

Ionan

I've seen people running around in their underpants, at first I was confused, but I can see why. All hail the underpants hardcore heroes! This is a semi serious suggestion for a challenge.

Palidon wrote: »

In the earlier days of ESO the complaints were the game was too hard. Now its too easy. I think there are players in this game who just look for something to whine about no matter what it is. Please give me a break and just play the game. If you think its too easy then find another game to play.

This is why you add a difficulty slider, or options to suit different people.

Asking people not to have opinions on a topic they spend time focused on is just going to give you a headache.

Shunravi

Selstad wrote: »

And as I've said; balancing that "optional" debuff, would be a pain in the royal hindquarters. Some monsters would be difficult, others would be insanely impossible to kill while others wouldn't even been noticed as any more difficult. It would be even more imbalanced than it is today, and that's no fun either.

Other points asside, the optional nature of the debuff would mean that it doesnt need to be balanced. You willingly take it on and understand that it works as is. Any varied experiences are actually part of the fun.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Palidon wrote: »

In the earlier days of ESO the complaints were the game was too hard. Now its too easy. I think there are players in this game who just look for something to whine about no matter what it is. Please give me a break and just play the game. If you think its too easy then find another game to play.

Or they can just up the difficulty again, it wasn't hard back in beta/launch, it was just the right amount of challenge, imo. And back then I was pretty much new to MMO's etc. Had a few months of other games, but I hadn't looked up builds or anything, I used what I liked back then and it wasn't too hard, I could solo dolmens and world bosses with a bit of a challenge in it. If I had joined today I'm not sure I would've stayed as I'd been too bored facerolling everything.

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

And as I've said; balancing that "optional" debuff, would be a pain in the royal hindquarters. Some monsters would be difficult, others would be insanely impossible to kill while others wouldn't even been noticed as any more difficult. It would be even more imbalanced than it is today, and that's no fun either.

As for the NES era; Of course the games were hard, but look at speedrunners. Point here is that the difficulty is partially subjective, and changes depending on your knowledge of and insight in the game you're playing. The more you play it, the more it becomes "easy". How long do you think it would take before that "hard" difficulty would be easy? And you'd cry out for a "harder" difficulty? Eventually you'd run into "easy" even on hard mode, simply because you know the game. That's something a single system "difficulty" slider can't change, there has to be several layers on the difficulty that both rewards and punishes, as I've said before. It doesn't help with just a "debuff", thinking that is a magical solution that would automatically make the game a lot more difficult. It's a lot better to do a job proper, than slapping on some half hearted paste and consider it a job well done.

.....aaaaaaaaaand we're repeating ourselves again. I already told what what I thought about "perfect balance". Since the debuff is optional and not part of the core game, perfect balance wouldn't matter, and indeed would add unpredictability to the game, which I would find great. If you run into a situation which is truly unbalanced and you can't progress, then just drop the slider back down to normal mode and *presto*, you'll progress.

Of course difficulty is subjective, and of course I'd get better at the game over time. THAT is the challenge. THAT is what the slider is for. This is the last time I'll repeat myself to you, because if you cannot understand these basic points then you're lost.

Dahveed

Shunravi wrote: »

Selstad wrote: »

And as I've said; balancing that "optional" debuff, would be a pain in the royal hindquarters. Some monsters would be difficult, others would be insanely impossible to kill while others wouldn't even been noticed as any more difficult. It would be even more imbalanced than it is today, and that's no fun either.

Other points asside, the optional nature of the debuff would mean that it doesnt need to be balanced. You willingly take it on and understand that it works as is. Any varied experiences are actually part of the fun.

This.

Selstad

Dahveed wrote: »

.....aaaaaaaaaand we're repeating ourselves again. I already told what what I thought about "perfect balance". Since the debuff is optional and not part of the core game, perfect balance wouldn't matter, and indeed would add unpredictability to the game, which I would find great. If you run into a situation which is truly unbalanced and you can't progress, then just drop the slider back down to normal mode and *presto*, you'll progress.

Of course difficulty is subjective, and of course I'd get better at the game over time. THAT is the challenge. THAT is what the slider is for. This is the last time I'll repeat myself to you, because if you cannot understand these basic points then you're lost.

I'm not speaking about "perfect balance", only balance. There always has to be a certain balance, where the game challenges you, but doesn't feel impossible, and the challenge vs reward is something that is problematic in any given game; how far do you push the difficulty, and to what reward?

Balance would matter because if it wasn't consistent, you'd just jump up and down on the difficulty as it suits you, and what challenge is there in that? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of it all if you knew that the "simple" solution to a hurdle, was to "back down" on the difficulty, making the most challenging parts, easy again. It's like having "God Mode" on a keystroke in an FPS, as soon as it becomes "challenging" and you couldn't overcome it, you'd just press a key and presto, you'd stroll right through it. But how would you know if the thing was impossible and imbalanced, or challenging, if you resorted to that? That's why balance is important in my view. And it's not about perfect balance, I don't think that even exist in any given game, but there still has to be a certain level of balance to it to make the difficulty and challenge, rewarding.

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

.....aaaaaaaaaand we're repeating ourselves again. I already told what what I thought about "perfect balance". Since the debuff is optional and not part of the core game, perfect balance wouldn't matter, and indeed would add unpredictability to the game, which I would find great. If you run into a situation which is truly unbalanced and you can't progress, then just drop the slider back down to normal mode and *presto*, you'll progress.

Of course difficulty is subjective, and of course I'd get better at the game over time. THAT is the challenge. THAT is what the slider is for. This is the last time I'll repeat myself to you, because if you cannot understand these basic points then you're lost.

I'm not speaking about "perfect balance", only balance. There always has to be a certain balance, where the game challenges you, but doesn't feel impossible, and the challenge vs reward is something that is problematic in any given game; how far do you push the difficulty, and to what reward?

Balance would matter because if it wasn't consistent, you'd just jump up and down on the difficulty as it suits you, and what challenge is there in that? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of it all if you knew that the "simple" solution to a hurdle, was to "back down" on the difficulty, making the most challenging parts, easy again. It's like having "God Mode" on a keystroke in an FPS, as soon as it becomes "challenging" and you couldn't overcome it, you'd just press a key and presto, you'd stroll right through it. But how would you know if the thing was impossible and imbalanced, or challenging, if you resorted to that? That's why balance is important in my view. And it's not about perfect balance, I don't think that even exist in any given game, but there still has to be a certain level of balance to it to make the difficulty and challenge, rewarding.

I think the biggest fundamental difference between my point of view and yours is about convenience and balance.

Basically I am prepared to sacrifice balance in exchange for challenge and unpredictability; you are not.

Which is precisely why a slider would be 100% optional.

There isn't much more point in discussing it.

Selstad

The thing is, if the developers are going to put something in the game, it needs to be something that's functional for the masses, something people will use. If it's for only a few, it's a waste of money. The content developed needs to be favouring as many as possible, simply because of money.

Why is this important? Because if you can't convince the developers that it's something most people would like, it's never going to be anything other than wishful thinking. I don't disagree on the fundamentals, what I disagree upon is the implementation, because I see it as too imperfect and not balanced enough to be functional for most people.

We don't disagree on difficulty, I wouldn't mind that either, but I might be too ambitious, challenging the implementations for them to be thought through, changed and perfected to a degree that the chances for it getting implemented, are a lot higher. Just look at the changes they've done to the game since its release, due to popular demands. Many a good idea are used in one form or fashion, but it's like a sales pitch. You need to play on the buyer's half of the field, and that's when you're most likely to score a goal

Shunravi

Naw, all it needs to be is an april fools joke from zos... no need for balance in a joke... :P

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

The thing is, if the developers are going to put something in the game, it needs to be something that's functional for the masses, something people will use. If it's for only a few, it's a waste of money. The content developed needs to be favouring as many as possible, simply because of money.

Why is this important? Because if you can't convince the developers that it's something most people would like, it's never going to be anything other than wishful thinking. I don't disagree on the fundamentals, what I disagree upon is the implementation, because I see it as too imperfect and not balanced enough to be functional for most people.

We don't disagree on difficulty, I wouldn't mind that either, but I might be too ambitious, challenging the implementations for them to be thought through, changed and perfected to a degree that the chances for it getting implemented, are a lot higher. Just look at the changes they've done to the game since its release, due to popular demands. Many a good idea are used in one form or fashion, but it's like a sales pitch. You need to play on the buyer's half of the field, and that's when you're most likely to score a goal

Well if you want to look at it from the point of view as a sales pitch, just look at the potential cost-benefit analysis.

It costs them practically nothing to actually implement. If we assume that the new service is precisely what I describe, i.e, a very simple "disease", potion, food debuff, etc., this would be very, very VERY cheap to implement; the coding is already in their game. It would take a matter of hours of dev time to create something like this.

The payoff could be potentially massive. People who find the game boring (as me and all my friends and family do) would have a reason to start playing much more often and actually invest their time and money into the game.

Believe me when I say this, that the only reason I don't spend any more time or money here is purely because of difficulty. I come back every month or two to try to find some fun, but I just can't do it. After 20 minutes I log off because it's just too damn silly watching my guys kill everything in 2 seconds, like I'm some sort of demi-god. I just can't take games like that seriously.

For the very small "cost" in dev time it would take, they would make that money back in less than a month. In my case they would instantly have a new sub, not to mention I'd buy all the DLCs and maybe even the odd vanity item in their Crown Store since I'd be invested in their game again, as would others.

Worst case scenario? They spend... what, a few thousand dollars on dev resource budget, and not too many people use it. For a company like ZoS, this is a drop in the bucket. The potential payoff is huge, and the "risk" (i.e. cost) is almost non-existant when taken into perspective.

Don't forget that this game had a budget of $200,000,000 USD, and still continues to rake in money from game sales, sub sales, DLC sales and crown store sales. You can't tell me they can't afford to put in a few afternoons of dev time to build a very simple debuff potion (or disease, or slider, or doomstone, or costume) to attract people looking for more challenge.

SanderBuraas

I completely agree with you, Dahveed. Some people don't seem to get it. The mobs in this game are easy and boring. I made a thread regarding this about a year ago.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172300/game-too-easy/p1

The responses I recieved consisted of compromise, such as: remove armour, remove weapon, move to higher level zone, etc. I don't want compromise, the game should be exciting and challenging by default.

The mobs of Elder Scrolls Online suffer from these issues:

• Too easy.
• Basic mechanics. No debuffs, diseases alike.
• Too slow. Can easily be kited by players without slowing abilities.
• Not responsive, as in they don't attempt to dodge or counter your attacks.

There are many ways to fix these issues. Some require more work (which would be time well spent) and others are a matter of number adjustment. The leveling experience should be fun and less of a basic grind.

Selstad

Dahveed wrote: »

Well if you want to look at it from the point of view as a sales pitch, just look at the potential cost-benefit analysis.

It costs them practically nothing to actually implement. If we assume that the new service is precisely what I describe, i.e, a very simple "disease", potion, food debuff, etc., this would be very, very VERY cheap to implement; the coding is already in their game. It would take a matter of hours of dev time to create something like this.

The payoff could be potentially massive. People who find the game boring (as me and all my friends and family do) would have a reason to start playing much more often and actually invest their time and money into the game.

Believe me when I say this, that the only reason I don't spend any more time or money here is purely because of difficulty. I come back every month or two to try to find some fun, but I just can't do it. After 20 minutes I log off because it's just too damn silly watching my guys kill everything in 2 seconds, like I'm some sort of demi-god. I just can't take games like that seriously.

For the very small "cost" in dev time it would take, they would make that money back in less than a month. In my case they would instantly have a new sub, not to mention I'd buy all the DLCs and maybe even the odd vanity item in their Crown Store since I'd be invested in their game again, as would others.

Worst case scenario? They spend... what, a few thousand dollars on dev resource budget, and not too many people use it. For a company like ZoS, this is a drop in the bucket. The potential payoff is huge, and the "risk" (i.e. cost) is almost non-existant when taken into perspective.

Don't forget that this game had a budget of $200,000,000 USD, and still continues to rake in money from game sales, sub sales, DLC sales and crown store sales. You can't tell me they can't afford to put in a few afternoons of dev time to build a very simple debuff potion (or disease, or slider, or doomstone, or costume) to attract people looking for more challenge.

It could also be a disaster by "simply putting in a debuff". Things become horrible out of balance and people don't bother using it, and it doesn't lure anyone back to the game because of that imbalance since it's a nice idea that doesn't work in the game.

From a business perspective, everything is a weight in risk vs reward, and as it stands, there's nothing speaking neither way, bad nor good. It can strike both ways, and the developer time spent on implementing something that potentially wouldn't have any benefits, is time that could be spend on doing something that would. There's always a weight of that on these "small" changes.

Dahveed

Selstad wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Well if you want to look at it from the point of view as a sales pitch, just look at the potential cost-benefit analysis.

It costs them practically nothing to actually implement. If we assume that the new service is precisely what I describe, i.e, a very simple "disease", potion, food debuff, etc., this would be very, very VERY cheap to implement; the coding is already in their game. It would take a matter of hours of dev time to create something like this.

The payoff could be potentially massive. People who find the game boring (as me and all my friends and family do) would have a reason to start playing much more often and actually invest their time and money into the game.

Believe me when I say this, that the only reason I don't spend any more time or money here is purely because of difficulty. I come back every month or two to try to find some fun, but I just can't do it. After 20 minutes I log off because it's just too damn silly watching my guys kill everything in 2 seconds, like I'm some sort of demi-god. I just can't take games like that seriously.

For the very small "cost" in dev time it would take, they would make that money back in less than a month. In my case they would instantly have a new sub, not to mention I'd buy all the DLCs and maybe even the odd vanity item in their Crown Store since I'd be invested in their game again, as would others.

Worst case scenario? They spend... what, a few thousand dollars on dev resource budget, and not too many people use it. For a company like ZoS, this is a drop in the bucket. The potential payoff is huge, and the "risk" (i.e. cost) is almost non-existant when taken into perspective.

Don't forget that this game had a budget of $200,000,000 USD, and still continues to rake in money from game sales, sub sales, DLC sales and crown store sales. You can't tell me they can't afford to put in a few afternoons of dev time to build a very simple debuff potion (or disease, or slider, or doomstone, or costume) to attract people looking for more challenge.

It could also be a disaster by "simply putting in a debuff". Things become horrible out of balance and people don't bother using it, and it doesn't lure anyone back to the game because of that imbalance since it's a nice idea that doesn't work in the game.

From a business perspective, everything is a weight in risk vs reward, and as it stands, there's nothing speaking neither way, bad nor good. It can strike both ways, and the developer time spent on implementing something that potentially wouldn't have any benefits, is time that could be spend on doing something that would. There's always a weight of that on these "small" changes.

How much time did they spend on the Justice System? I can guarantee you it was exponentially greater than the time it would take to do a slider.

How much did that pay off? Hardly at all, I would argue. Yes it added a new interesting thing that might attract more attention, but in terms of the sheer amount of time it must have taken vs. the actual "payout", I hardly think it was that "profitable". But they do it anyways, as they do many other things, to keep things interesting and alive. They HAVE to.

Changes happen all the time in MMOs. Look at the patch notes that come out every week. I stopped bothering even reading any of them; there are too many. If your MMO doesn't keep changing and evolving, and doesn't offer something that can't be found elsewhere, it'll get killed by the competition.

You're telling me out of all the hundreds/thousands of changes they do every month, they can't do one more because that would somehow be too expensive? Out of all the insignificant things that change, that NOBODY even notices or cares about, this one would somehow be special?

Come on.

I understand they have to prioritize things. But this is something that could change the very nature of how the game is played by some, and would require VERY little effort compared to other changes they have already made.

Dahveed

A perfect example of precisely the kind of change you are talking about is the latest 64 bit client (many people are having massive issues with it), and the change from Dx9 to DX11 exclusively. Were these changes necessary?

i didn't even know about them until they were implemented, and based on many comments in the forums, they basically make the game unplayable for many people, who no longer meet the system requirements.

I'm sure rebuilding their client .exe from scratch for 64-bit compatibility took a LOT of work. And switching to DX11 also. What kind of "payout" are they expecting from this investment? If anything they stand to lose money in the short-term, since some people will have to un-sub if their machines can no longer run the game.

Is this a "profitable" move from a cost-benefit analysis? Maybe after 4 or 5 years if the game is still going strong. But right now I'm sure this change is in the red column by a fair margin.

But it's a change which will introduce long-term stability and functionality.

This would also be the case with a slider. It introduces a feature that would introduce a fair bit replayability, both for new players and vets looking to roll an alt. It's something they could spend some time and money on once, and have it exist in the game basically forever, with very little attention or maintenance required.... giving people one more reason to sub or to stay subbed.

waterfairy

It's always amusing when I read about someone saying a game is too easy and want the game to accommodate them...they're usually at max skills with best gear whining about no challenge.

If you want things harder then make them hard...reset your skills and health/stam/magic points then put on level 1 gear. If that's too extreme then wear level 10 gear and spent 10 points. (you get the idea, the choice is there to make things hard for yourself)

tplink3r1

xellink wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

This has been brought up before, and naysayers have complained about the suggestion saying it's "impossible" in an MMO. I say this is crap, it would be easy.

Just include some sort of "curse" or disease or something somewhere in the game that the player could (willingly) choose to greatly reduce his or her damage output, and increase damage taken.

I just logged in to this game for the first time in a couple months... My level 7 nightblade is LITERALLY naked except for his Soul Shriven pants (lvl 1 with 0 armor), with a lvl 6 green bow with no stats or anything. I am 1-shotting everything. just sneak up close, press one button, and it dies.

It is horrible gameplay, utterly non-engaging, and completely boring. It's the reason I can't get into this game at all. What is the point of investing any time into getting gear upgrades, using professions, etc? Nothing is ever a threat.

A "cursed potion" or some kind of doomstone curse, or perhaps a disease or something I could willingly wear to nerf my character would instantly make combat much more exciting and gratifying, not the 1-shot snoozefest it is now.

This could easily be done and would not affect game balance in any way for any player that didn't want to participate. But it would literally save the entire game for me.

why don't you just remove your armor or use lower level gear?

Because its fun to improve my character.

WatchYourSixx

After reading through a very lengthy first page of this topic... I decided to contribute my thoughts, as I am bored, yet not bored enough to read any other comments. My apologies if I mention something someone else has already stated.

Judging by the fact that you're highest lvl char isnt even vet yet (as of the time of that video) I can only assume all you've done is questing and maybe the occasional dungeon. Content past lvl 50 gets much harder, and if you want a real challenge, go try to solo craglorn without a heal . With that being said, I find the difficulty of the quests to be perfect. I've been playing since the game was released and during beta. I am a very experienced player in terms of MMO's (Been playing for about 9 years) and I was amazed at how difficult things were in the beginning. Questing is much more fluid now and you dont have the difficulty barriers that made it frustrating (NOT FUN). Granted, I kinda liked the difficulty, so I know what you are saying. However, the point of questing throughout your average quest isnt to be hit by a wall of difficulty. You shouldnt have any difficulty dispatching a wolf or a mudcrab. Your average bandit shouldnt be hard to kill either. You are an un-killable (can always resurrect) soulless machine, so why should it be hard to kill simple things? You should be enjoying the quests for the content, not the difficulty. Difficulty is introduced at vet lvls and on.

Your perspective you gave in the original post also simplifies the game way too much. Like several others pointed out, you are using a sneak attack (guaranteed crit), and a teleport strike (at least in the video). A 2 sec stun can cripple most enemies.

What I mean by that is how you play makes the game easier for you. For example, I play with over 340 CP on my baby toons and fly through 1-50. If you dont enjoy it, mix it up. However, dont expect things to be hard to kill if they are not 2 diamond or 3 diamond difficulty.

Also, from a programmer's standpoint (though im not sure if someone mentioned this already) would not take 20 min to implement as you said... its not as simple as just modifying a value or adding in an optional debuff. There is a lot of work that has to go into just adding in one tiny feature, testing, new bugs that might create, QA, and obviously writing the code itself which would have to be completely seperate from their monster mechanics anyways, as you are not adjusting current values itself, but providing the option to modify values of either the character or monster. Granted, I have never worked on an MMO before, but I have worked on my own games and been programming various projects for about 4 years.

Lastly, I dont see this ever being a possibility. The market for it is simply not there. Several players might see it as a welcomed addition, but others (Many many others) would agree that its a waste of ZoS resources... Maybe when the game is stable they can throw in another mechanic to mess it up. It wouldnt be something they sell in the crown store, because how would they sell that? A thing that decreases your dmg done? Who in their right mind would want that? They wouldnt be able to make that profitable at all. That means that the mechanic would have to be a base game implementation. Either way, see my paragraph above..

That's my two cents. Take what you want of it.

Dahveed

Vigarr wrote: »

It's always amusing when I read about someone saying a game is too easy and want the game to accommodate them...they're usually at max skills with best gear whining about no challenge.

If you want things harder then make them hard...reset your skills and health/stam/magic points then put on level 1 gear. If that's too extreme then wear level 10 gear and spent 10 points. (you get the idea, the choice is there to make things hard for yourself)

You didn't pay any attention to the OP. Read it again, and you'll realize how foolish your statement is.