Dahveed wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I've already expressed my opinion on how silly it is to judge the overall difficulty of a game while intentionally dwelling in easy content while refusing to progress into more difficult content.

So I won't expound further on that topic.

However, there is one important flawed aspect to the concept of a difficulty slider in a persistent, open-world MMO, and that is this:

Any type of dynamic or group related activity such as world bosses, Dolmen, public dungeons etc would/could have outcomes directly related to your slider/debuff. Each of these events are designed to be enjoyed by multiple players at the same time. (Hense MMO) Therefore, any debuff willingly placed on any player partaking in these events would directly effect every player participating in these events whether they like it or not. The notion that a debuff would only effect you is flawed due to the fact that your debuff would/could cause each of these events to fail or take longer. A single player using a debuff would essentially nerf every other person involved in any sort of dynamic event.

Now if there were some sort of way to deactivate such a debuff or difficulty slider the instant you hit/healed/took damage from any creature involved in these events... then it would be truly harmless and would effect nobody other than yourself. But such an expenditure of developmental resources would be unwise considering more important issues such as class balance and bugs/performance. Especially considering there is plenty of challenging content (some extremely challenging) already in the game if you simply invest the small effort required to find it.

I understand your points, but these open world dynamic events are so sparse and so underwhelming (and repetitive) as to be almost totally insignificant regarding character progression and balance.

So let's say that, normally, I'd arrive at a Dolmen to participate in breaking the chains by defeating the enemies. Upon my arrival, more creatures spawn and/or those creatures get stronger. (I believe this is how it works?) This compensates for the fact that they have an additional player.

Now if said additional player arrives with a debuff (i.e. he's an expert player who really knows what he's doing, finds the content too easily, and self-applied this debuff), you are saying this would negatively affect other players.

I get the argument... except that it doesn't really work when you truly think about it. Because this additional player already knows what he is doing. He is an expert deliberately seeking more challenge, and thus will still significantly contribute to victory - he will know how to use his abilities, cooldowns, dodge, min/max resources etc.

I understand you'd be afraid that some buffoonish noob with a debuff comes in, doesn't help at all and furthermore makes things more difficult for others... just ends up being a burden, disrupting balance and thus making the game unfair. But this simply isn't the case. A player with a debuff is almost by default a player who knows exactly what he is doing and how to contribute.

And, finally, I just want to add that these group events are such a sad joke to witness in terms of "difficulty" that it is almost not even worth mentioning the word "balance" when referring to them. The only problem I've EVER had when participating in the closing of a dolmen gate is not being able to attack the creatures before they die, because other players kill them too quickly. They are a complete joke, so you'll pardon me for not taking words like "balance" too seriously when talking about them.

However I do appreciate the thought you've put into your post. It's an interesting point, but I don't think it's nearly as important as you would think.... and, as I've said in a different reply somewhere in this thread:

Part of the reason why MMOs have become so stale is that the devs are too worried about coddling players with perfect, smooth balance (i.e. easy gameplay), and are thus unable to provide spontaneous, interesting, dangerous and unpredictable open worlds. Nobody has the balls to implement something like this because they worry, worry, worry about everything.

This translates into stale, repetitive, easy gameplay in the vast majority of the open world, and the MMO just looks like yet another boring copy/paste of every generic fetch quest MMO on the market. Which is precisely why people like myself cannot bring themselves to play them.

Whether you choose to accept it or not, I have listed and explained why:
#1 There are not any persistent open - world MMOs with difficulty sliders or optional debuffs.
#2 ESO will not be an exception to this.

All of the exceptions to this practical explanation you have listed are all based on presumptions and assumptions. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will ever be added/included into an MMO under the assumption that it will be used with responsibility and reasonable application. If it can be used/abused in order to negatively effect other players, it will be used to negatively effect other players. This is a general rule of online social activities that game developers long ago learned to keep in mind during MMO development. It would be like giving people a magic wand that turned weapons into cackling chickens, then said "ok, now play nice people, be sure to only use this on yourself".

In addition, the notion that your debuff/slider would not effect other players involved in these events based on how "easy" they are is completely subjective to your opinion on challenge level and would by default completely disregard the opinion of any other person involved in the event you joined.

And finally, your opinion of ease is still, and always has been, based on a tiny fraction of available content. Dynamic events like zone bosses are much more challenging elsewhere in the game than they are in any lvl 30 zone. Take your level 40 character into Wrothgar and solo a zone boss, then come back and tell us how easy it was for you. (Keep in mind that Wrothgar will scale your character to appropriate level with battle leveling mechanics, so this would NOT be the same thing as jumping ahead in leveled zones)

In summery, your entire concept is likely based on a long history of single player RPG game time rather than MMO experience, and as myself and several other people have mentioned is also based on the fact that you are intentionally avoiding progressing into more challenging content.

Here are some suggestions for you to do that won't take much time and will expose you to aspects of the game that will in turn inspire people to take you more seriously when you say the game is too easy:

#1 Take your character (at any level) into either one of the new scaled zones and participate in a world boss fight or public dungeon
#2 Take your character (at any level I believe) into Wrothgar and try the Maelstrom arena on both normal and veteran difficulty. This is a single player instance specifically designed to offer challenging single player content.
#3 Get your level 40 character to level 50 (AKA Vet rank 1) and que for ANY hard mode dungeon.

There are some players that still believe the game is too easy after experiencing all available content, but the overall majority of the player base finds the overall challenge level of the game to be just about right. If you experience some of the above mentioned content and still find the game too easy, then your opinion will be taken more seriously.

I really appreciate how consistent you are, and I appreciate the fact that out of so many trolls here you attempt to make coherent points. Thank you.

I really do understand what you are saying. I get your perspective. But I don't think you get mine.

Basically what it boils down to, is that you are telling me this: in order to truly appreciate ESO, I have to do the exact same thing that EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. on the entire market offers: Grind to end game then repeat dungeons/trials/raids/whatever the end-game content is in order to find a "challenge".

I understand how this is the case in every other MMO. The norm.

But ESO wasn't supposed to be every other MMO. it was supposed to be Elder Scrolls. I don't play MMOs precisely because I find this kind of bland, repetitive "dungeon grinding" gameplay is abominable.

So you might say: Fine, then. MMOs aren't for you, and ESO is an MMO, therefore ESO is not for you. Keep your money and leave.

Which is *kind of* what I'm doing. I haven't done any of the DLC endgame stuff precisely because I don't want to spend my hard-earned money on activities I COULD LITERALLY DO IN EVERY SINGLE GAME ON THE FREAKING PLANET.

I was truly hoping (and based on these threads I keep making, I still AM hoping) that Elder Scrolls would be (will be) different. That the same exciting "Elder Scrollsy" feeling of not knowing what you'll find in the open world awaits you every time you play.

In order to find out how great Elder Scrolls is, I have to just race through the ONLY kind of content that I personally would find interesting - the questing, the reading, the lore, the stories, the voice acting, the characters - in order to just do bosses, do raids, do challenges, do whatever "endgame" grind crap that - sorry to repeat myself in caps again - THAT EXISTS IN EVERY. FREAKING. MMO. ON. THE. PLANET.

Why would I sink money into ESO when I could do all these (boring) things for free elsewhere?

I'm trying to be as respectful in my disagreement as possible here, because, like I said, out of all the people here who have disagreed with me so far you've been the most articulate and have made the most sense. And you're also (I think) representative of EXACTLY the kind of "endgame or gtfo" mentality that plagues all MMOs: leveling, by definition, CANNOT be fun, it's not SUPPOSED to be fun.. it's just supposed to be something that you just "do" because everyone "just does" it as fast as possible.

But that shouldn't be what ES games are about.

You may be right, it may be that I am completely wasting my time and energy in posts like this, because my idea will never happen.

But I can still hope that I am not.

Dahveed wrote: »

ESO could make a bold move, and be the first MMO on the planet that DOESN'T have boring, crappy, sucky, faceroll 1-50 content.

And they could do it with one easy debuff, which *GASP* may, on occasion, slightly inconvenience the odd player who is questing in the world.

Dahveed wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Dahveed wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I've already expressed my opinion on how silly it is to judge the overall difficulty of a game while intentionally dwelling in easy content while refusing to progress into more difficult content.

So I won't expound further on that topic.

However, there is one important flawed aspect to the concept of a difficulty slider in a persistent, open-world MMO, and that is this:

Any type of dynamic or group related activity such as world bosses, Dolmen, public dungeons etc would/could have outcomes directly related to your slider/debuff. Each of these events are designed to be enjoyed by multiple players at the same time. (Hense MMO) Therefore, any debuff willingly placed on any player partaking in these events would directly effect every player participating in these events whether they like it or not. The notion that a debuff would only effect you is flawed due to the fact that your debuff would/could cause each of these events to fail or take longer. A single player using a debuff would essentially nerf every other person involved in any sort of dynamic event.

Now if there were some sort of way to deactivate such a debuff or difficulty slider the instant you hit/healed/took damage from any creature involved in these events... then it would be truly harmless and would effect nobody other than yourself. But such an expenditure of developmental resources would be unwise considering more important issues such as class balance and bugs/performance. Especially considering there is plenty of challenging content (some extremely challenging) already in the game if you simply invest the small effort required to find it.

I understand your points, but these open world dynamic events are so sparse and so underwhelming (and repetitive) as to be almost totally insignificant regarding character progression and balance.

So let's say that, normally, I'd arrive at a Dolmen to participate in breaking the chains by defeating the enemies. Upon my arrival, more creatures spawn and/or those creatures get stronger. (I believe this is how it works?) This compensates for the fact that they have an additional player.

Now if said additional player arrives with a debuff (i.e. he's an expert player who really knows what he's doing, finds the content too easily, and self-applied this debuff), you are saying this would negatively affect other players.

I get the argument... except that it doesn't really work when you truly think about it. Because this additional player already knows what he is doing. He is an expert deliberately seeking more challenge, and thus will still significantly contribute to victory - he will know how to use his abilities, cooldowns, dodge, min/max resources etc.

I understand you'd be afraid that some buffoonish noob with a debuff comes in, doesn't help at all and furthermore makes things more difficult for others... just ends up being a burden, disrupting balance and thus making the game unfair. But this simply isn't the case. A player with a debuff is almost by default a player who knows exactly what he is doing and how to contribute.

And, finally, I just want to add that these group events are such a sad joke to witness in terms of "difficulty" that it is almost not even worth mentioning the word "balance" when referring to them. The only problem I've EVER had when participating in the closing of a dolmen gate is not being able to attack the creatures before they die, because other players kill them too quickly. They are a complete joke, so you'll pardon me for not taking words like "balance" too seriously when talking about them.

However I do appreciate the thought you've put into your post. It's an interesting point, but I don't think it's nearly as important as you would think.... and, as I've said in a different reply somewhere in this thread:

Part of the reason why MMOs have become so stale is that the devs are too worried about coddling players with perfect, smooth balance (i.e. easy gameplay), and are thus unable to provide spontaneous, interesting, dangerous and unpredictable open worlds. Nobody has the balls to implement something like this because they worry, worry, worry about everything.

This translates into stale, repetitive, easy gameplay in the vast majority of the open world, and the MMO just looks like yet another boring copy/paste of every generic fetch quest MMO on the market. Which is precisely why people like myself cannot bring themselves to play them.

Whether you choose to accept it or not, I have listed and explained why:
#1 There are not any persistent open - world MMOs with difficulty sliders or optional debuffs.
#2 ESO will not be an exception to this.

All of the exceptions to this practical explanation you have listed are all based on presumptions and assumptions. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will ever be added/included into an MMO under the assumption that it will be used with responsibility and reasonable application. If it can be used/abused in order to negatively effect other players, it will be used to negatively effect other players. This is a general rule of online social activities that game developers long ago learned to keep in mind during MMO development. It would be like giving people a magic wand that turned weapons into cackling chickens, then said "ok, now play nice people, be sure to only use this on yourself".

In addition, the notion that your debuff/slider would not effect other players involved in these events based on how "easy" they are is completely subjective to your opinion on challenge level and would by default completely disregard the opinion of any other person involved in the event you joined.

And finally, your opinion of ease is still, and always has been, based on a tiny fraction of available content. Dynamic events like zone bosses are much more challenging elsewhere in the game than they are in any lvl 30 zone. Take your level 40 character into Wrothgar and solo a zone boss, then come back and tell us how easy it was for you. (Keep in mind that Wrothgar will scale your character to appropriate level with battle leveling mechanics, so this would NOT be the same thing as jumping ahead in leveled zones)

In summery, your entire concept is likely based on a long history of single player RPG game time rather than MMO experience, and as myself and several other people have mentioned is also based on the fact that you are intentionally avoiding progressing into more challenging content.

Here are some suggestions for you to do that won't take much time and will expose you to aspects of the game that will in turn inspire people to take you more seriously when you say the game is too easy:

#1 Take your character (at any level) into either one of the new scaled zones and participate in a world boss fight or public dungeon
#2 Take your character (at any level I believe) into Wrothgar and try the Maelstrom arena on both normal and veteran difficulty. This is a single player instance specifically designed to offer challenging single player content.
#3 Get your level 40 character to level 50 (AKA Vet rank 1) and que for ANY hard mode dungeon.

There are some players that still believe the game is too easy after experiencing all available content, but the overall majority of the player base finds the overall challenge level of the game to be just about right. If you experience some of the above mentioned content and still find the game too easy, then your opinion will be taken more seriously.

I really appreciate how consistent you are, and I appreciate the fact that out of so many trolls here you attempt to make coherent points. Thank you.

I really do understand what you are saying. I get your perspective. But I don't think you get mine.

Basically what it boils down to, is that you are telling me this: in order to truly appreciate ESO, I have to do the exact same thing that EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. on the entire market offers: Grind to end game then repeat dungeons/trials/raids/whatever the end-game content is in order to find a "challenge".

I understand how this is the case in every other MMO. The norm.

But ESO wasn't supposed to be every other MMO. it was supposed to be Elder Scrolls. I don't play MMOs precisely because I find this kind of bland, repetitive "dungeon grinding" gameplay is abominable.

So you might say: Fine, then. MMOs aren't for you, and ESO is an MMO, therefore ESO is not for you. Keep your money and leave.

Which is *kind of* what I'm doing. I haven't done any of the DLC endgame stuff precisely because I don't want to spend my hard-earned money on activities I COULD LITERALLY DO IN EVERY SINGLE GAME ON THE FREAKING PLANET.

I was truly hoping (and based on these threads I keep making, I still AM hoping) that Elder Scrolls would be (will be) different. That the same exciting "Elder Scrollsy" feeling of not knowing what you'll find in the open world awaits you every time you play.

In order to find out how great Elder Scrolls is, I have to just race through the ONLY kind of content that I personally would find interesting - the questing, the reading, the lore, the stories, the voice acting, the characters - in order to just do bosses, do raids, do challenges, do whatever "endgame" grind crap that - sorry to repeat myself in caps again - THAT EXISTS IN EVERY. FREAKING. MMO. ON. THE. PLANET.

Why would I sink money into ESO when I could do all these (boring) things for free elsewhere?

I'm trying to be as respectful in my disagreement as possible here, because, like I said, out of all the people here who have disagreed with me so far you've been the most articulate and have made the most sense. And you're also (I think) representative of EXACTLY the kind of "endgame or gtfo" mentality that plagues all MMOs: leveling, by definition, CANNOT be fun, it's not SUPPOSED to be fun.. it's just supposed to be something that you just "do" because everyone "just does" it as fast as possible.

But that shouldn't be what ES games are about.

You may be right, it may be that I am completely wasting my time and energy in posts like this, because my idea will never happen.

But I can still hope that I am not.

...level 1-50 is nothing more than a glorified starting zone.

Why, though? Why does it HAVE to be this way? Why can't 1-50 be interesting, engaging, and challenging gameplay?

Why is it so impossible for me to imagine a game that I can roll an alt in another faction and not be bored to tears until level 50?

This is what I mean when I talk about the typical MMO mentality. It has to suck, because it has always sucked, as it has always sucked in every other MMO.

ESO could make a bold move, and be the first MMO on the planet that DOESN'T have boring, crappy, sucky, faceroll 1-50 content.

And they could do it with one easy debuff, which *GASP* may, on occasion, slightly inconvenience the odd player who is questing in the world.

Alphashado wrote: »

I am trying to get you to understand something: 1-50 is not even close to the end of the leveling journey in ESO. it is nothing. It is a drop in the pan. It is only the beginning.


Required XP 1-50
[.............................]

Required XP V1-V16
[.....................................................................................................................................]


THEN you get to endgame.

Dahveed wrote: »

the questing, the reading, the lore, the stories, the voice acting, the characters

Volkodav wrote: »

TheVindelator wrote: »

Personally, I'd love a difficultly slider. (Or something similar.)

ESO has it's roots in single player games where the difficultly can be cranked up.

Which TES game had a level of difficulty scale? Where you could crank it up?
Since I never change things in my game,..other than a few mods in Morrowind,they are as they come for me.Whatever level being the one I play.The one game I have played that has a slider in The Witcher.

Alphashado wrote: »

I just cannot fathom the level of misunderstanding in this thread. @Dahveed has said several times that the game is too easy while admitting that he hasn't even played anything other than 1-50 normal content. When I suggested many other things to do in order to find challenging content, he said that he shouldn't have to get to "endgame" in order to enjoy a challenge.

I am trying to explain that level 50 is not endgame. I couldn't be more clear or concise. The graph is meant to demonstrate to those that haven't reached level 50 yet that the amount of time required to get from 1-50 is a small fraction of the time and XP required to get from V1-V16. Endgame, by its definition, is things you do when your character is at "Max Level". Max level in ESO is V16, NOT level 50. 1-50 is a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of content compared to the rest of the game. Using 1-50 as criteria to judge the entire game is outlandish.


Here is my honest opinion because just like a certain political candidate, I am tired of trying to be PC about it: Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about or asking for. Many of you are coming here from a single player RPG and you expect ESO to revolutionize the MMO industry by using "simple technology" to do something that has never been done before. You are ignoring all of the reasonable, practical and logical explanations why it cannot and will not be done.

Furthermore, to argue about the overall quality of the game w/o experiencing more than 20% of the game content is beyond outlandish, it's borderline insane. It's like complaining that the starter islands are too easy, because that's what 1-50 content is in ESO- starter content.

I've never seen such a selfish community in an MMO, and I've been doing this for a very long time. I suppose it stems from such a large influx of people from the ES franchise that are accustomed to the entire game revolving around them.

In summery, this is not Skyrim part 2. This is an MMO. Learn to deal with the type of restrictions and lack of freedom you find in MMOs compared to single player RPGs, or go back to single player RPGs. They are not the same thing, and they never will be.

Volkodav wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

TheVindelator wrote: »

Personally, I'd love a difficultly slider. (Or something similar.)

ESO has it's roots in single player games where the difficultly can be cranked up.

Which TES game had a level of difficulty scale? Where you could crank it up?
Since I never change things in my game,..other than a few mods in Morrowind,they are as they come for me.Whatever level being the one I play.The one game I have played that has a slider in The Witcher.

@Volkodav it would be more astute to ask which tes games didn't have a slider. Heck, a leveling trick for consoles where you couldn't mod or hack was to make a barrier out of paintbrushes, summon a skeleton inside the barrier, crank the scaling so it would take forever to kill, then attack it at range.neck I thing a quick Google search for console cheats would reveal as much.

Neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had those scale sliders.I still play MW and I know what I mean.You cant make it more difficult with a slider.TES game didnt come with sliders. Not on PC anyway.I wouldnt know about consol playing.
Sure,you could trick the game or add mods to change that,but it wasnt in Vanilla.
I wish we could mod this game as we could MW.If we could,we could make it as hard or as easy as we chose it to be.

I amended my be for statement because I was trying to be cheeky but it was wrong. However, a quick Google search gave me this for oblivion. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Hardest_Difficulty_Strategy_Guide difficulty slider listed right there. Which I should also point out is an active scalar.

Well,my bad then. :}
I only played OB once,beat it within a few hours,..and just hated it.The characters you make look like Neanderthals. And I can actually say it was far too easy,even with Knights of the Nine and the other expansion.So,I never even looked for a slider.Now,as it still sits unused on my PC,I'll have to go back in for a quick look.
(I didnt remove the game,due to loyalty issues. XD)

Volkodav wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

TheVindelator wrote: »

Personally, I'd love a difficultly slider. (Or something similar.)

ESO has it's roots in single player games where the difficultly can be cranked up.

Which TES game had a level of difficulty scale? Where you could crank it up?
Since I never change things in my game,..other than a few mods in Morrowind,they are as they come for me.Whatever level being the one I play.The one game I have played that has a slider in The Witcher.

@Volkodav it would be more astute to ask which tes games didn't have a slider. Heck, a leveling trick for consoles where you couldn't mod or hack was to make a barrier out of paintbrushes, summon a skeleton inside the barrier, crank the scaling so it would take forever to kill, then attack it at range.neck I thing a quick Google search for console cheats would reveal as much.

Neither Morrowind nor Oblivion had those scale sliders.I still play MW and I know what I mean.You cant make it more difficult with a slider.TES game didnt come with sliders. Not on PC anyway.I wouldnt know about consol playing.
Sure,you could trick the game or add mods to change that,but it wasnt in Vanilla.
I wish we could mod this game as we could MW.If we could,we could make it as hard or as easy as we chose it to be.

I amended my be for statement because I was trying to be cheeky but it was wrong. However, a quick Google search gave me this for oblivion. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Hardest_Difficulty_Strategy_Guide difficulty slider listed right there. Which I should also point out is an active scalar.

And here's morrowind.http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2817-difficulty-slider/

Ok,wait.I just reread your statement.Morrowind DID have player made mods that changed it,as I said in my earlier post.Yes,you could FORCE it to be more difficult,but it didnt come that way.Not at all. I said you could add mods to change the game.

DenMoria wrote: »

This whole conversation is now officially boring and circular.

Either enjoy the game or don't.

The game wasn't designed just for you.

An MMO does not function the same way as a single-player, therefore the coding involved in implementing something as "simple" as a slider is quantum light years more difficult than in a single-player as it involves many, many thousands of players, not just you.

Not everyone wants to play a game (particularly on the Tutorial levels 1-50) at punishing difficulty (thus, not everyone loves the Soul series).

If you are such an "incredibly good" player that even the most difficult of programmed bosses are a cakewalk, then it is time to move on.

You are not the center of the universe. The game is not just for you.

If you don't like it. Don't play it.

Do not punish the many many thousands of other players by suggesting that the entire game, it's mechanics and it's coding be re-written just to please you.

Lastly: If you have designed, produced and fully understand the programming that goes in to the creation of something like ESO (or any other MMO) then you can make suggestions for programming changes and educate everyone else on the most appropriate ways to go about doing that with the minimum of disruption to other users.

If not, then just shut up and stop whining.

If you have never heard of the "cascade effect" in coding and programming, perhaps you should educate yourself. To many complainers have no idea just how many moving pieces there are in any sort of programming.