A Lore Mistake by ZOS?

dimensional · March 2016

What in the hell makes you think they would do that? The existence of 2 or 3 characters in the game that don't follow predicted behavior means all of a sudden they are going to abandon 15+ years of established TES lore and character? You're just being obtuse right now, and I don't honestly believe that you actually think they will do something like that. Have a nice day.

Abeille · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Why? They should be allowed to make any character they want, whenever they want. I guarantee you the people writing the lore and characters at ZOS have a far greater feel for TES than any of us do. I for one am glad they introduce characters like this, it is boring to see every race always behave in a cookie cutter fashion.

because making Khajiit talking in 1st person will make the race like anything race in any given video game. Why make TES games flat in terms of one of kind races? How many other video games that have a race that talks in 3rd person as part of lore? Why lose that?

This reminds me of when people argued against the "any race, any alliance" perk.

Not every individual of a race is the same. Not all of them were raised in the same place and culture just because they share physical features.

Making all Khajiit follow the same naming conventions and talk in third person regardless of who they are and what's their story wouldn't make much sense.

UrQuan · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

True, I agree with you about RL examples, but I still a problem how Khajiits are being treated in ESO. This is a game / player POV, what I love TES games and about the Khajiit race is how they talk. I hate to lose that cool aspect. Even if it not that realistic, I still very, very, very, much prefer that still talk in 3rd person. If they talk 1st person like all other races, they will lose some of their special uniqueness.

OK, so what makes something in a game (or any other fictional universe) lore-breaking?

It's when something is:
A. Directly contradicted by an established in-universe fact (note: this is only when the established fact does not rely on a fallible in-universe source as so much of Elder Scrolls lore does)
AND/OR
B. Not internally consistent (this tends to overlap with A, but not always)
AND/OR
C. Not plausible in the context of the fictional universe.

Having all Khajiit throughout Tamriel speak in the third person and only be referred to by traditional Khajiit names would be lore-breaking because it fits criteria C: it's simply not plausible in the context of the Elder Scrolls universe. If the context was that Khajiit are an isolated race that rarely deals with the other races then it would be plausible. But they're not, and it's simply not plausible.

By the same token, it would be lore-breaking if the majority of Khajiit across Tamriel did not follow traditional Khajiit naming conventions and speech patterns, because that would fit both criteria B (not internally consistent) and criteria C (not plausible considering that the majority of Khajiit come from traditional Khajiit society).

So essentially you're saying that you really don't care about the lore, you just want all Khajiit to talk a certain way and have names that fit a certain pattern simply because you like it.

k9mouse · March 2016

Yes, might be an extreme example, but the point is that ZOS will get carry away with making too many Khajiits to talk in 1st person, not 3rd person. That just my fear, may be not every single one, but just to many of them will do that and make the Khajiit race flat.

Shunravi · March 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

True, I agree with you about RL examples, but I still a problem how Khajiits are being treated in ESO. This is a game / player POV, what I love TES games and about the Khajiit race is how they talk. I hate to lose that cool aspect. Even if it not that realistic, I still very, very, very, much prefer that still talk in 3rd person. If they talk 1st person like all other races, they will lose some of their special uniqueness.

OK, so what makes something in a game (or any other fictional universe) lore-breaking?

It's when something is:
A. Directly contradicted by an established in-universe fact (note: this is only when the established fact does not rely on a fallible in-universe source as so much of Elder Scrolls lore does)
AND/OR
B. Not internally consistent (this tends to overlap with A, but not always)
AND/OR
C. Not plausible in the context of the fictional universe.

Having all Khajiit throughout Tamriel speak in the third person and only be referred to by traditional Khajiit names would be lore-breaking because it fits criteria C: it's simply not plausible in the context of the Elder Scrolls universe. If the context was that Khajiit are an isolated race that rarely deals with the other races then it would be plausible. But they're not, and it's simply not plausible.

By the same token, it would be lore-breaking if the majority of Khajiit across Tamriel did not follow traditional Khajiit naming conventions and speech patterns, because that would fit both criteria B (not internally consistent) and criteria C (not plausible considering that the majority of Khajiit come from traditional Khajiit society).

So essentially you're saying that you really don't care about the lore, you just want all Khajiit to talk a certain way and have names that fit a certain pattern simply because you like it.

^

dimensional · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

Yes, might be an extreme example, but the point is that ZOS will get carry away with making too many Khajiits to talk in 1st person, not 3rd person. That just my fear, may be not every single one, but just to many of them will do that and make the Khajiit race flat.

And what do you base this fear on? Maybe 2 or 3 current existing characters that are like this? Do you always become fearful of a huge change in something anytime you see the most minor and insignificant departures from the norm?

It's like, you go to the post office every single week to pay your bills. You've been doing this for 10 years. But one day, your usual mail clerk isn't working that day so you just assume she died or quit? This is incredibly faulty reasoning, and similar to what you're doing right now with this whole Khajit thing.

k9mouse · March 2016

UrQuan wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

True, I agree with you about RL examples, but I still a problem how Khajiits are being treated in ESO. This is a game / player POV, what I love TES games and about the Khajiit race is how they talk. I hate to lose that cool aspect. Even if it not that realistic, I still very, very, very, much prefer that still talk in 3rd person. If they talk 1st person like all other races, they will lose some of their special uniqueness.

OK, so what makes something in a game (or any other fictional universe) lore-breaking?

It's when something is:
A. Directly contradicted by an established in-universe fact (note: this is only when the established fact does not rely on a fallible in-universe source as so much of Elder Scrolls lore does)
AND/OR
B. Not internally consistent (this tends to overlap with A, but not always)
AND/OR
C. Not plausible in the context of the fictional universe.

Having all Khajiit throughout Tamriel speak in the third person and only be referred to by traditional Khajiit names would be lore-breaking because it fits criteria C: it's simply not plausible in the context of the Elder Scrolls universe. If the context was that Khajiit are an isolated race that rarely deals with the other races then it would be plausible. But they're not, and it's simply not plausible.

By the same token, it would be lore-breaking if the majority of Khajiit across Tamriel did not follow traditional Khajiit naming conventions and speech patterns, because that would fit both criteria B (not internally consistent) and criteria C (not plausible considering that the majority of Khajiit come from traditional Khajiit society).

So essentially you're saying that you really don't care about the lore, you just want all Khajiit to talk a certain way and have names that fit a certain pattern simply because you like it.

I do care about lore, thus this topic. There are two reasons that I got in TES game (Oblivion): the music and how Khajiit talk.

k9mouse · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

Yes, might be an extreme example, but the point is that ZOS will get carry away with making too many Khajiits to talk in 1st person, not 3rd person. That just my fear, may be not every single one, but just to many of them will do that and make the Khajiit race flat.

And what do you base this fear on? Maybe 2 or 3 current existing characters that are like this? Do you always become fearful of a huge change in something anytime you see the most minor and insignificant departures from the norm?

It's like, you go to the post office every single week to pay your bills. You've been doing this for 10 years. But one day, your usual mail clerk isn't working that day so you just assume she died or quit? This is incredibly faulty reasoning, and similar to what you're doing right now with this whole Khajit thing.

May be, just the love of the Khajiit race is showing a little too much...

UrQuan · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

True, I agree with you about RL examples, but I still a problem how Khajiits are being treated in ESO. This is a game / player POV, what I love TES games and about the Khajiit race is how they talk. I hate to lose that cool aspect. Even if it not that realistic, I still very, very, very, much prefer that still talk in 3rd person. If they talk 1st person like all other races, they will lose some of their special uniqueness.

OK, so what makes something in a game (or any other fictional universe) lore-breaking?

It's when something is:
A. Directly contradicted by an established in-universe fact (note: this is only when the established fact does not rely on a fallible in-universe source as so much of Elder Scrolls lore does)
AND/OR
B. Not internally consistent (this tends to overlap with A, but not always)
AND/OR
C. Not plausible in the context of the fictional universe.

Having all Khajiit throughout Tamriel speak in the third person and only be referred to by traditional Khajiit names would be lore-breaking because it fits criteria C: it's simply not plausible in the context of the Elder Scrolls universe. If the context was that Khajiit are an isolated race that rarely deals with the other races then it would be plausible. But they're not, and it's simply not plausible.

By the same token, it would be lore-breaking if the majority of Khajiit across Tamriel did not follow traditional Khajiit naming conventions and speech patterns, because that would fit both criteria B (not internally consistent) and criteria C (not plausible considering that the majority of Khajiit come from traditional Khajiit society).

So essentially you're saying that you really don't care about the lore, you just want all Khajiit to talk a certain way and have names that fit a certain pattern simply because you like it.

I do care about lore, thus this topic. There are two reasons that I got in TES game (Oblivion): the music and how Khajiit talk.

If you did care about the lore then you would be more concerned if all of the Khajiit had traditional names and spoke using traditional Khajiit speech patterns. If you cared about the lore then you would want the vast majority of Khajiit to fit the traditional Khajiit mold, but you want there to be a handful who didn't because that's lore-friendly. What you're suggesting would be lore-breaking.

Inarre · March 2016

The khajiits there were adopted by imperials who attempted to create khajiit like names for the baby khajiits, but in attempting to emulate their native tongue, butchered it, and made them the laughing stock of all the lore enthusiasts of Tamriel

GreenGhostMan · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

It's not a habit. It was a specific, clearly chosen design decision when making an individual character. If anything, their "habit" (repeated behavior) is to design them as they usually are.

ok, it is a "design decision" and it should stop and that is the point I am trying to make.

Having every single Khajit in Tamriel speak in 3rd person would be unrealistic. A Khajit raised in a foreign land would obviously not be raised on Khajit culture and therefore not follow Khajit customs.

There are thousands, if not millions, of Asians and Hispanics that are named Jim, Ashley or Greg and do not have accents or speak the native language of their ancestors. Heck, all of America disproves your logic. I don't live by German culture because I'm of German descent.

SantieClaws · March 2016

This one is just pleased to see that we are all having an argument about Khajiit for once

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Thybrinena · March 2016

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

Abeille · March 2016

Vanhelm wrote: »

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

There are members of every race in every alliance already. The perk doesn't break the lore, it fixes it. Forcing us to create characters of only 3 races (plus Imperial) in each of the alliances is what is lore breaking.

Regarding Cadwell's quests, I wondered about them too. At first, I thought they didn't actually happen, and were a "what if" scenario, because the game treats you as if you didn't have your soul back yet. However, after playing Orsinium and seeing that characters that I only met in my Gold areas recognized me, I started to think that it might be more like a Spinner's story: You didn't actually do that, but the characters still remember you. Like Aranias in Greenshade.

Shunravi · March 2016

Vanhelm wrote: »

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

And yet in every game to date, members of each race have lived in whatever country the game is set in.

Ghanima_Atreides · March 2016

It's clearly a nickname, and it's not the only one in the game: Sugar-Claws, Smallpaws, Sugarbreath and Splendid Paws also come to mind.

As @Abeille pointed out, races in TES are not confined exclusively to their regions; just like in real life people travel, settle elsewhere, some people are born away from their parents' countries of origin or raised by other races. In Skyrim, you can meet Brand-Shei, a Dunmer raised by Argonians who bears an Argonian name. In ESO, in one of the AD zones, there is a Khajiit who speaks in 1st person because she's spent time in Cyrodiil and got used to the Imperial speech (you can actually discuss this with her; sadly her name escapes me).

notimetocare · March 2016

Of all possible lorebreaking things in this game, this is what the OP is wondering about?

k9mouse · March 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

Of all possible lorebreaking things in this game, this is what the OP is wondering about?

Why Yes! Because Khajiit is an AWESOME race! They have a special place in this one's heart...

Abeille · March 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

Vanhelm wrote: »

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

And yet in every game to date, members of each race have lived in whatever country the game is set in.

Because a lot of people played only Skyrim, I always like to remind them that an Imperial or an Altmer could join the Stormcloaks in Skyrim, and not be treated any differently by Ulfric (he asks why we are fighting for Skyrim, but he asks that to anyone that isn't a Nord as far as I'm aware).

Shunravi · March 2016

Abeille wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Vanhelm wrote: »

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

And yet in every game to date, members of each race have lived in whatever country the game is set in.

Because a lot of people played only Skyrim, I always like to remind them that an Imperial or an Altmer could join the Stormcloaks in Skyrim, and not be treated any differently by Ulfric (he asks why we are fighting for Skyrim, but he asks that to anyone that isn't a Nord as far as I'm aware).

That is a very good one to point out, thanks. Also, he will take you in as a Dunmer, and you can clearly see the segregation in his own city...

Thybrinena · March 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

Vanhelm wrote: »

IMO the lore was totally screwed up as soon as they brought in the every race can play any faction and the Cadwell quests. 50 Levels of serving the covenant and then 16 VR levels of killing Redguards, Bretons and Orcs Covenant soldiers.

And yet in every game to date, members of each race have lived in whatever country the game is set in.

Being in my 40sand having played TES since Daggerfall I'm somewhat aware of that

but what you quoted above was announced with the Imperial Edition and not before when the whole hype of the game and lore for 3 years had been about the races going up against each other. Why base the factions off race at all then? Why announce that at such a late stage when some the alliances seemed odd in the first place? Surely it would've been more lore friendly to base the PvP factions off something else (Brotherhood/New/old NPC Guilds etc) and leave all races play a generic 1-50 experience seeing that it differs so little anyway if you do Cadwells also.

Lets not misunderstand me here, I love the lore and I love the game but at the time of release I did feel certain decisions were being made for marketing reasons that made no sense or were very weak lore wise. The DLC stuff has been great, truly.

dimensional · March 2016

The factions aren't based on race in-as-much as region and government. Even before Imperial Edition was announced, you had all race NPCs in every faction, and even NPCs in other races who work directly for "opposing" factions.

Fellenore_Ewalion · March 2016

You said ONE lore mistake?

xellink · March 2016

We need humans who are raised by khajit and speak in third person!!!!

Abeille · March 2016

xellink wrote: »

We need humans who are raised by khajit and speak in third person!!!!

I second this.

No wait, make it an orc.

Not wait! An Altmer or Dunmer.

And with the accent, too.

baratron · March 2016

A Lore mistake?

I have not played Morrowind, and am unfamiliar with the Khajiit characters from that game. However, there were Khajiit who spoke in the first person in Oblivion. I assume these to be Khajiit who had been born in Cyrodiil and grew up speaking like the Imperials. For example, J'skar. In fact, the majority of Khajiit spoke in this way.

There were also Khajiit who spoke in the third person in Oblivion. I assume these to be Khajiit who had been born in Elsweyr. For example, S'Krivva. Oddly, none of the Khajiit in Border Watch seem to speak in the third person, even though they live right on the border between Cyrodiil and Elsweyr.

In Skyrim, there were relatively few Khajiit, with only two who are not part of a trade caravan. However, there were still some who spoke in the first person, such as Kharjo.

Considering the evidence, it seems to me that rather than being something which all Khajiit do, speaking in the third person is intended to be a regional accent and/or a sign of belonging to a particular social class.

Gidorick · March 2016

To me, it is more lore-breaking that ZOS doesn't allow the choice for a player to speak in the Khajiit 3rd person dialect. While there IS an amazing addon that does this (http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info157-KhajiitSpeak.html) It should be supported natively by ESO.

dimensional · March 2016

That's a lore breaking as no toilets in tamriel, that is to say, not at all.

k9mouse · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

That's a lore breaking as no toilets in tamriel, that is to say, not at all.

They use buckets for their number one and two....

Shunravi · March 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

That's a lore breaking as no toilets in tamriel, that is to say, not at all.

They use buckets for their number one and two....

I keep looting chamber pots too...