Someone in the Combat Design team needs to get reprimanded...

pretzl · March 2016

Remember all those times @Wrobel went on ESO Live and said his goal and purpose as developer of this game was to make it balanced? He wanted to make every skill and both its morphs viable for some kind of play. With that, he also wanted to balance templars, but that's alittle besides the point.

You all saw this in the Patch Notes, right? It was there for the PTS patch notes, it's still there now.

So when you, @Wrobel , want to make both morphs of a skill viable, you remove the effect from one (which was alittle OP, I agree) and give it nothing back?
Currently, Rushed Ceremony is fine. Breath of Life healed 2 additional targets. Honor The Dead healed 1 additional target, but gave you magicka in return.
Now Breath of Life heals 1 additional target. Honor the Dead heals 1 additional target and returns magicka.
I just don't see the logic.

This isn't a thread asking for a revert of the BoL nerf. I couldn't care less.
What I care about is the fact that ZOS' developers are time and time again claiming they want to balance this, fix that, make both morphs viable, etc. etc. yet all we see is Templar Houses, Sorcs turning into 1.2-1.4 DKs and nerfing one morph to make it just as unbalanced as it was before. Nerfing BoL does nothing for the Rushed Ceremony skill as a whole. It simply pushes one morph to be better than the other.

I just fail to see the logic behind it... Atleast give Breath of Life and other abilities which have been mutilated in the same way some extra bonus.

EDIT:
Whoah, I got alittle overdramatic there.
TL;DR ZOS keep saying they want to make both morphs of a skill good, but instead nerf one so the other is imbalanced again.

Bfish22090 · March 2016

best change this game has had to date

timidobserver · March 2016

The streamers are happier now though, so all is good.

pretzl · March 2016

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while.
What I don't agree with is the fact that Wrobel decided one skill was OP; so he nerfed it and basically just shifted the OPness to the other morph. BoL needs an extra buff to it similar to the magicka return HotD has.

Rakkul · March 2016

This is the Templar housing estate:

danno8 · March 2016

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

pretzl · March 2016

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

danno8 · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

You are wrong on HtD. It never healed two people. Just one.

Go check it again.

danno8 · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

Also, you are never guaranteed to get the heal as the healer. Never have been. It may heal you or it may not. That is why people always referred to the DK heal as more "reliable" since the caster always received the heal.

pretzl · March 2016

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

You are wrong on HtD. It never healed two people. Just one.

Go check it again.

As a person who used the morph to lvl a magicka templar, I think I'm correct XD
It always - wether intentionally or unintentionally - healed yourself. If you were close to someone, it would heal them aswell, but no more than that. BoL would heal up to 3 people (counting the heal that always affected yourself).

Husan · March 2016

You are wrong @pretzl. Neither BoL nor honor the dead are guaranteed to heal the caster. Due to smart heals, they heal whoever nearby is lowest hp. For breath of life this used to be 1 person for the full amount, and 2 additional persons for half amount each. Now for breath of life it's one person for full amount and one additional person for half amount. Honor the dead used to, and still does fire off only one heal for full amount and no secondary heals.

danno8 · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

You are wrong on HtD. It never healed two people. Just one.

Go check it again.

As a person who used the morph to lvl a magicka templar, I think I'm correct XD
It always - wether intentionally or unintentionally - healed yourself. If you were close to someone, it would heal them aswell, but no more than that. BoL would heal up to 3 people (counting the heal that always affected yourself).

Nope.

I can see why you are confused though.

After trying it, the graphic still shows a big swirly around you, the caster. But the only outgoing healing is to the ONE person being healed.

Use an addon and try it. One heal only, every time.

pretzl · March 2016

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

You are wrong on HtD. It never healed two people. Just one.

Go check it again.

As a person who used the morph to lvl a magicka templar, I think I'm correct XD
It always - wether intentionally or unintentionally - healed yourself. If you were close to someone, it would heal them aswell, but no more than that. BoL would heal up to 3 people (counting the heal that always affected yourself).

Nope.

I can see why you are confused though.

After trying it, the graphic still shows a big swirly around you, the caster. But the only outgoing healing is to the ONE person being healed.

Use an addon and try it. One heal only, every time.

Ah, ***, you may just be correct! I don't remember checking my addons for the actual healing and just assumed it worked fine while grinding.
Still, it makes for a minor difference. BoL is still the lesser morph and it's about as unbalanced as before.

danno8 · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

You are wrong on HtD. It never healed two people. Just one.

Go check it again.

As a person who used the morph to lvl a magicka templar, I think I'm correct XD
It always - wether intentionally or unintentionally - healed yourself. If you were close to someone, it would heal them aswell, but no more than that. BoL would heal up to 3 people (counting the heal that always affected yourself).

Nope.

I can see why you are confused though.

After trying it, the graphic still shows a big swirly around you, the caster. But the only outgoing healing is to the ONE person being healed.

Use an addon and try it. One heal only, every time.

Ah, ***, you may just be correct! I don't remember checking my addons for the actual healing and just assumed it worked fine while grinding.
Still, it makes for a minor difference. BoL is still the lesser morph and it's about as unbalanced as before.

Really? I think it makes a huge difference. Part of the problem with using HtD before (as compared to BoL) is that it was just one heal instead of three. The chances of you being the one to get a heal when you needed it was 3x better using BoL.

Now it is just 2x better, but it costs more since you give up the magicka return. HtD in groups is truly awful since you are likely to die if only one other person has a worse health % than you. BoL was good for that.

So basically in groups you really want to use BoL or quite frankly, Healing Springs. Solo it is clearly better to use HtD

TheM0rganism · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

Where did you ever get the idea that HtD healed more than one person?

AfkNinja · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while. LOL

You are incorrect. You really think that one 25% strength heal (in pvp) was what made Breath of Life Broken? It always has been about line of sight, that's it. Being able to heal people who are not even in the same room as you was the problem, the fix they implemented will change NOTHING except PUG PVE. It was a terrible "fix" that won't fix the problem people were complaining about in the first place.

TheM0rganism · March 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while. LOL

You are incorrect. You really think that one 25% strength heal (in pvp) was what made Breath of Life Broken? It always has been about line of sight, that's it. Being able to heal people who are not even in the same room as you was the problem, the fix they implemented will change NOTHING except PUG PVE. It was a terrible "fix" that won't fix the problem people were complaining about in the first place.

On top of that, removing one of the three heals from BoL and NOT REDUCING THE MAGIKA COST is even more indicative of their misfired attempt at balancing.

pretzl · March 2016

TheM0rganism wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

I've highlighted two parts here.
Honor the Dead heals yourself + 1 ally, meaning the second statement you made is incorrect.
Therefore, it heals yourself for 100%, 1 ally for 100% + the magicka return.

Breath of Life used to heal yourself for 100% + 2 allies for 50% each.
Now, BoL heals yourself for 100% + 1 ally for 50% and nothing on top of it.

Therefore, BoL is a lesser morph. Honor of the Dead has suddenly become the better morph when they actually very easily could be balanced.

For instance; give BoL a minor/major mending buff or something of the sort and it's suddenly more or less balanced again. Instead, they opt to kill it off and basically do nothing but shift the OPness to the other morph...

Where did you ever get the idea that HtD healed more than one person?

While playing with my grindingpartner, I usually healed us every now and then. It made the swirly animation on both of us so I assumed it healed both without really paying attention to the bars ^^

pretzl · March 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while. LOL

You are incorrect. You really think that one 25% strength heal (in pvp) was what made Breath of Life Broken? It always has been about line of sight, that's it. Being able to heal people who are not even in the same room as you was the problem, the fix they implemented will change NOTHING except PUG PVE. It was a terrible "fix" that won't fix the problem people were complaining about in the first place.

You having a different opinion doesn't mean I'm incorrect.
Learn the difference, please

DHale · March 2016

This is crazy, honor the dead is, was, and never was a self heal it only healed one person... Ever. It may not be you that gets the heal and actually if someone else is around it won't be. I have used it since PC launch. Many times I have healed someone one who had more health than I had, but they got the heal and I did not. Any simple review of the tool tip would have eliminated a completely useless debate besides actually using honor the dead. Qq kappa

AfkNinja · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while. LOL

You are incorrect. You really think that one 25% strength heal (in pvp) was what made Breath of Life Broken? It always has been about line of sight, that's it. Being able to heal people who are not even in the same room as you was the problem, the fix they implemented will change NOTHING except PUG PVE. It was a terrible "fix" that won't fix the problem people were complaining about in the first place.

You having a different opinion doesn't mean I'm incorrect.
Learn the difference, please

It's not an opinion, you didn't say "In my opinion", you made a direct statement. For you to be factually correct you would need to provide evidence that in fact that 25% heal was overpowered and nerfing it will result in the changes the Devs want. Streamers were complaining about line of sight, not a side bonus weak heal. You made the claim it was one of the best changes made in a long time and was needed for balance, Since you made the claim you have to prove it.

Glory · March 2016

pretzl wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

best change this game has had to date

I agree, the BoL nerf in itself is one of the better changes this game has had in a long while.
What I don't agree with is the fact that Wrobel decided one skill was OP; so he nerfed it and basically just shifted the OPness to the other morph. BoL needs an extra buff to it similar to the magicka return HotD has.

Isn't the extra buff healing one extra target? There is still a buff given by morphing, it just got put more in line. I'm sure templar hate will rain down on me (I have played one as well...), but HtD gives magicka return while BoL gives an extra target heal.

Edit: to point out that HtD heals one person max with magicka return, BoL heals 1 plus a smaller 1 heal.

PainfulFAFA · March 2016

danno8 wrote: »

You are not quite right.

BoL healed one person for x amount, and two others for 50%.

Now it only heals one extra person for 50%. So one person gets 100%, one person gets 50%

HtD is just one heal for 100% plus the magicka return.

Of course you may or may not be the recipient of any of those heals...

This.
Templars will be fine.
I play one. My biggest frustrations were Jesus beam avoidable thru dodge, Focused Charge bug, Jabs no critting shields, and Dark Flare imbalance. I'm ok with BoL nerf.

Cathexis · March 2016

Look at the class skills and compare the availability of standardized bonuses.. Wrobel either doesn't really give a *** about balance or doesn't know how to do it.

The_Tip · March 2016

lol @ this morph change. so much for healing dungeons with kids who can't dodge roll out of the red more than 1/10 times.

WTF. literally hit's 2 group members for like 5k each in heals, how OP was this honestly? You just broke the main healing classes go-to heal, increase the cost a bit or something, don't handicap Templars when you do nothing to balance the class in respects to what it lacks. This seems like a dumb move imo. Will definitely turn even more people off from Templar class selection I fear.

failkiwib16_ESO · March 2016

elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Restoring+Light+Skills
Rushed Ceremony heals 1 target
Honer the Dead heals 1 target + restores some magicka
Breath of Life heals 1 target and 2 pugs swimming in stupid

It is publically stated that the developers of this game actually do play ESO in their offtime. That means they have their preferences, bias and motivation to change and alter the game, to fit their playstyle. From the recent nerfs and buffs, my guess would be that they are pvp'ers lol

Evilie · March 2016

The_Tip wrote: »

lol @ this morph change. so much for healing dungeons with kids who can't dodge roll out of the red more than 1/10 times.

WTF. literally hit's 2 group members for like 5k each in heals, how OP was this honestly? You just broke the main healing classes go-to heal, increase the cost a bit or something, don't handicap Templars when you do nothing to balance the class in respects to what it lacks. This seems like a dumb move imo. Will definitely turn even more people off from Templar class selection I fear.

I agree with you. The devs have made it impossible for me as a Templar to heal my PVE groups without stressing out. And that is at VR16 with the best gold gear and non-stop potions. I have played a dedicated raid healer for over 15 years beginning with EQ1 and many MMORPG's between then and now, and I always enjoyed healing.. but not in this game! I hate healing dungeon groups with these gimped and worthless skills that I have to spam, I hate having to ask my teammates to use their self-heals, healing here is just not fun. And now they gimp Templar heals even more? And gimp my self heals with puncturing sweep? No way, not gonna do it, too much stress.

So, while my friends continue to wish to play this game (which may not be too much longer) my Templar will be crafting and I will play my Nightblade kitty.. I have fun, do killer dps, and don't stress out trying to do the impossible.

But, look what that means for the future of this game.. no one wants to play a healer or a tank anymore because it is just not fun.. is that balanced?

Evilie
Retired Grumpy Templar

heyewe · March 2016

I love my V16 Magika Templar. One of my favorite things to experience has been healing new players that joined me through PUG's in v-duns to get their first gold key. They learn a lot about their build. Some just board the struggle bus and die, yeah..but most don't quit bc I've got their back. They figure out how to self-heal, learn mechanics and hopefully gain some wisdom and competency by the time we are done.

A PUG player said it best last night after defeating Bogdan. " I can't believe I did it. I figured I would never be good enough to do vet dungeons. Man, I learned a lot about what I need to change." He was squishy. Fell off the edge twice. But in the end, got the key AND the helm. Lol

I will be incredibly disappointed if my love for helping newer players gets nerfed because I'm not able to help keep them in the fight through heals.

SemiD4rkness · March 2016

The problem with breath of life is the amount of healing it provides not the targets it heals. Everyone knows that but @Wrobel.
Now zergs just recruit more templars and they can still heal like crazy.

Joy_Division · March 2016

The_Tip wrote: »

lol @ this morph change. so much for healing dungeons with kids who can't dodge roll out of the red more than 1/10 times.

WTF. literally hit's 2 group members for like 5k each in heals, how OP was this honestly? You just broke the main healing classes go-to heal, increase the cost a bit or something, don't handicap Templars when you do nothing to balance the class in respects to what it lacks. This seems like a dumb move imo. Will definitely turn even more people off from Templar class selection I fear.

It wasn't OP. People complained there was too much "healing" going on, even though barrier and purges, the main culprits, aren't strictly heals. So all of it got nerfed and ZoS gave us stacking heal debuffs and ridiculous damage.