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On Julianos and Twice-Born Star

Asayre
Asayre
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Keeping in line with ZOS and normal and veteran versions of everything. I present a normal and veteran version of this post.

Normal
Julianos is slightly preferred over Twice-Born Star but the difference is rather small. In game single trial test may lead to an incorrect conclusion. Instead, I suggest simply calculating the average damage with the following
c263ce93a5a2937a1480295bd852cf2f.png
where Crit is your spell critical chance and Modifier is the extra damage done on a critical strike.

Veteran
I was recently watching Deltia’s BIS Magic DPS Gear in ESO Kagrenacs vs Law of Julianos vs Twice Born Star. On his Molten whip test, he found that Twice-Born Star slightly outperforms Julianos but on his full rotation test he concluded that Julianos is preferred over Twice-Born Star. Now I am already convinced that Julianos is better but I was curious as to how likely is it for someone who performs a similar whip test to reach the incorrect conclusion. I’ll be using a lot of data from @Deltia’s video just because it is readily available data. I would like to acknowledge Deltia in creating the video and providing a resource for the community.

To answer the question of how likely is it for someone who performs a similar whip test to incorrectly conclude that Twice-Born Star outperforms Julianos, I will create the normal distribution of total damage for whip damage for Law of Julianos and Twice-Born Star. Damage calculations in ESO are rather straightforward, you either crit (and you do your base damage plus an additional critical modifier damage) or you don’t crit (and just do your base damage). This leads to a binomial distribution and if we do it sufficiently long we can approximate the total damage distribution with a normal distribution with the following statistics
61662e6f049959bb0e8c03c16d6fdd8f.png
where n is the number of whips, Crit is (spell) critical chance and modifier is the extra damage done on a crit. In Deltia’s case this is 0.69 (67 points in Elfborn, as an aside on Live 66 and 67 points in Elfborn result in the same modifier) Unfortunately, Deltia was not using a combat log so we cannot get accurate Base Damage numbers. We can however guess that it is 12684 (max Molten whip) / 1.69 = 7505. Some readers might suggest solving the equation for total damage
ea50a3deb051933aa48ff9b292dac458.png
Unfortunately, combat logs occasionally incorrectly record the number of crits because sometimes non-crits are counted as crits and crits are counted as non-crits. Also if you tried this out your results won’t match Deltia’s scrolling combat text. So the first way is preferable since it matches the scrolling combat text shown in the video where non-crits are 7.5k and 12.7k for a crit. Similarly, the Base Damage for Twice-Born Star is most likely 7102. Now the stats Deltia’s listed in his video are a bit perplexing. Here is a comparison of stats in his video for Julianos and Twice-Born Star
f5f59b15b5d1326f847f2f179a389f78.png
I’ve no idea why max magicka and spell critical is lower for Julianos than Twice-Born Star when the max magicka should be the same and the spell critical should be higher for Julianos. I’ll just use his Twice-Born Star spell critical and add an additional 6.2% for Julianos. We can easily plot both normal distributions and come to the conclusion that Julianos is better than Twice-Born Star.
f4627913cc8e8813453be30b6e6ab4ad.png
But let us suppose that you didn’t do all this and just looked at the total damage done by molten whip when using Law of Julianos and compared that to Twice-Born Star. This situation is just the difference between the two normal distributions
d6ed3fcab2610eae942deabe01f3f1e1.png
Deltia observed a difference of 14045 total damage for molten whip (448 DPS). If were to set a damage threshold of 10000 that is if the difference is less than -1000, Twice-Born Star is better and if the difference is greater than 10000 Julianos is better and anything in between means we are not sure, we arrive at the following.
3ae02af3826f73a4c2a86a3bd6fc8534.png
So about 25% chance to reach the incorrect conclusion that Twice-Born Star is better than Julianos, 35% chance that the test is inconclusive and 40% chance that Julianos is correctly identified as being preferrred over Twice-Born Star. Of course if you did multiple trials and then created a confidence interval you are more likely to get the right answer but why not just calculate the mean of both and be done with it in a significantly shorter time.

Note: If we used the stats provided by Deltia's video, the Twice-Born Star is clearly superior to Julianos because it has a higher critical chance
59f253ad5b1a824f33e9fab69ac6bc1a.png
Edited by Asayre on March 3, 2016 6:21PM
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    So basically

    Julianos is better.... If your attacks are capable of hitting critically...

    Twice born, if you have crits, can sometimes look like it's better... but it's not... I suppose lol

    And then there is Krag, just mentioned for the sake of being mentioned...

    So A lot of math to prove that mistakes can be made?

    Im curious, if you used an Un critable move 50% of the time, would all this math still add up?

    I cant help but think if you are using an un critable move 50% of the time or more, then Krag or Twice born becomes the higher dps choice? The whole 7% increase in chance, becomes 3.5% or 1.75% dmg. While Krag and TB would increase the non crit and the crit, becoming the better choice yes?
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  • Sureshawt
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    Wow! You guys should get a paycheck for all this work. Impressive :)
  • Resipsa131
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    You get some Extra Health and Stamina from TBS that can bring you character closer to 20 K Health while not taking much away from your damage.
  • Xeven
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    Awesome as always Asayre. Your work doesnt just help players play better, it helps players understand the underlying mechanics, which has many positive effects on the community as a whole.

    Thank you for sharing all of your hard work.
  • Emma_Overload
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    My own tests mirrored what many others have found: Julianos DPS slightly outperforms TBS over time.

    BUT.....

    I use TBS anyway because of situations where there is a priority to optimizing for some secondary effect that procs off of critical hits. For Sorcs, this is Surge healing, but I'm sure there are examples for other classes, too.

    Edited by Emma_Overload on March 3, 2016 8:24PM
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  • code65536
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    I use TBS anyway because of situations where there is a priority to optimizing for some secondary effect that procs off of critical hits. For Sorcs, this is Surge healing, but I'm sure there are examples for other classes, too.
    Um, in that case, Julianos would be better.

    Remember, Julianos has higher base damage and higher crit chance, while TBS trades that in for a higher crit damage modifier (plus the utility of extra stam and health). If you want to crit as often as possible; e.g., for Surge, then you want Julianos, not TBS.

    By that same vein, nightblades with their innate 10% bonus crit damage should also use Julianos to best capitalize on that crit damage.
    Edited by code65536 on March 3, 2016 10:23PM
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  • Waffennacht
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    @Emma_Eunjung do all these calculations that say Julianos is better than TBS be used when a restoration staff heavy attack is used?

    As restoration staff cannot critically hit clearly Julianos would be Far Less effective if only Heavy Restoration Staff attacks were used. So following logic, at some ratio of non-critable attacks vs critical attacks, TBS is superior.

    At what ratio of non critical attacks vs critical attacks does TBS become the superior choice?

    Edit: Or should I say, at what ratio of non Critical damage vs Critical damage does TBS become superior?
    Edited by Waffennacht on March 3, 2016 10:23PM
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  • code65536
    code65536
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    @Emma_Eunjung do all these calculations that say Julianos is better than TBS be used when a restoration staff heavy attack is used?

    As restoration staff cannot critically hit clearly Julianos would be Far Less effective if only Heavy Restoration Staff attacks were used. So following logic, at some ratio of non-critable attacks vs critical attacks, TBS is superior.

    At what ratio of non critical attacks vs critical attacks does TBS become the superior choice?

    Edit: Or should I say, at what ratio of non Critical damage vs Critical damage does TBS become superior?

    Resto staff attacks can and do critically hit.
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  • Waffennacht
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    Um.. r u sure the heavy attack does?
    Cuz ill tell u I've never seen it in all my testing
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  • Kammakazi
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    Gods of Math
  • Emma_Overload
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    code65536 wrote: »
    I use TBS anyway because of situations where there is a priority to optimizing for some secondary effect that procs off of critical hits. For Sorcs, this is Surge healing, but I'm sure there are examples for other classes, too.
    Um, in that case, Julianos would be better.

    Remember, Julianos has higher base damage and higher crit chance, while TBS trades that in for a higher crit damage modifier (plus the utility of extra stam and health). If you want to crit as often as possible; e.g., for Surge, then you want Julianos, not TBS.

    By that same vein, nightblades with their innate 10% bonus crit damage should also use Julianos to best capitalize on that crit damage.

    I should have explained better: Because of the Surge cooldown, a Sorc can only heal on ONE crit at a time. So although you want your crit to be as high as possible, you don't want to give up the Shadow mundus for the Thief. TBS is the only way you can have both. With TBS you can crit much more frequently than with Julianos + Shadow and crit much higher than with Julianos + Thief. TBS is more about achieving a nice balance, because you can it use it to crit frequently AND get up around a nice 1.9 damage multiplier when you do (assuming you invest CP into Elfborn, too).

    Edited by Emma_Overload on March 4, 2016 12:36AM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • code65536
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    Um.. r u sure the heavy attack does?
    Cuz ill tell u I've never seen it in all my testing

    Yes, it does. However, resto staves, since they are channeled, do not deal their heavy attack damage in one bundle. It is delivered as smaller individual ticks over time, and each individual tick can crit independently of each other.
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  • Asayre
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    @Waffennacht yes a lot of maths to show that mistakes can be made but also to estimate the likelihood of a mistake. I'm saying just figure out your base damage on a boss and then calculate the average damage and be done in like 10 seconds as opposed to doing rotation testing and stuff because the difference is quite small between Julianos and Twice-Born Star and testing is not too unlikely to give you the wrong answer. Perhaps a corollary is just pick one of the two and go kill stuff you won't be missing out on much.

    I'm not sure what you mean by an uncritable move. The closest thing I can think of is Power of the Light. When you reach the damage cap it can't go any higher even if you crit. Restorations staff attacks do crit
    215d4e3b4815d8dd9d7cfc86d43aa671.png

    Also I wanted to see where I could go with calculating the distribution of damage and see what I can use it for in the future.
    Edited by Asayre on March 4, 2016 2:33AM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Akinos
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    Has anybody tested TBS with apprentice+shadow vs Julianos? Every TBS vs Julianos thread/post I see only includes TBS with shadow+thief. I know shadow+apprentice spell damage will yield harder crits but you will crit a lil bit less. You can still get over 50% crit chance without the thief mundus. Is that extra crit chance really worth more then extra damage while still maintaining 50%+ crit chance?
    Edited by Akinos on March 4, 2016 4:11AM
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  • Waffennacht
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    Both answers are excellent. What I mean is that I understand what I was wrong about and why I was wrong.

    So the restostaff has ticks, as a console player I never knew, not only that, because its small ticks each time, the actual variation in difference is difficult to see, depending upon the frequency of ticks.

    Thank you.

    And because I know you can answer I can't help but ask, how often does a restoration heavy attack tick happen? Also does this make a medium charged heavy attack count as several light attacks?
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  • Latin
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    @Asayre

    Normal and vet versions...are very appropriate for the current development theme.

    Your argument makes sense, thank you for sharing.
  • Asayre
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    @Akinos the difference between Thief and Shadow for TBS compared to any other mundus combination is really far off. I calculated the different stats you would get with a range of different mundus stones and summarized it in this table
    424172abf4ab93364ed8fa737fd90d62.png
    It assumes you are using 5 piece Twice-Born Star, 3 Willpower and 2 Kena but do not proc the Kena and a sharpened Maelstrom staff. This is for a Breton DK/Templar. CP distribution is assumed to be 100 in Elemental Expert, 66 in Elfborn and 1 in Spell Erosion. The target is Slimecraw with Major Breach applied. From the normal distributions of total damage from casting 100 Force Pulse (300 events in total), the difference between the mundus stones is large and can easily be verified with in-game testing.
    eedc9d8994397e30d75921da72adade1.png

    Thank you, @Latin.

    @Waffennacht, I'm not sure how often the ticks occur but the entire heavy attack process is completed within ~2.1 seconds so maybe every 0.7 seconds? My combat log does not record time events with sufficient accuracy. The game does not recognise medium attacks, it is a word used by players to mean a not fully charged heavy attack. Holding the attack button for longer than ~230 ms results in the attack being Heavy and hitting for one tick. If you hold it for longer you'll get 2 ticks and if you hold it for ~2.1 seconds you'll get all 3 ticks.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Waffennacht
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    Asayre wrote: »
    @Akinos the difference between Thief and Shadow for TBS compared to any other mundus combination is really far off. I calculated the different stats you would get with a range of different mundus stones and summarized it in this table
    424172abf4ab93364ed8fa737fd90d62.png
    It assumes you are using 5 piece Twice-Born Star, 3 Willpower and 2 Kena but do not proc the Kena and a sharpened Maelstrom staff. This is for a Breton DK/Templar. CP distribution is assumed to be 100 in Elemental Expert, 66 in Elfborn and 1 in Spell Erosion. The target is Slimecraw with Major Breach applied. From the normal distributions of total damage from casting 100 Force Pulse (300 events in total), the difference between the mundus stones is large and can easily be verified with in-game testing.
    eedc9d8994397e30d75921da72adade1.png

    Thank you, @Latin.

    @Waffennacht, I'm not sure how often the ticks occur but the entire heavy attack process is completed within ~2.1 seconds so maybe every 0.7 seconds? My combat log does not record time events with sufficient accuracy. The game does not recognise medium attacks, it is a word used by players to mean a not fully charged heavy attack. Holding the attack button for longer than ~230 ms results in the attack being Heavy and hitting for one tick. If you hold it for longer you'll get 2 ticks and if you hold it for ~2.1 seconds you'll get all 3 ticks.

    Freakin awesome! You never fail to impress!
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  • Papa_Hunt
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    Quick question...when talking about TBS in this comparison, this is using crit chance and crit damage mundas stones?
  • Resipsa131
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    Quick question...when talking about TBS in this comparison, this is using crit chance and crit damage mundas stones?

    Yes
  • eserras7b16_ESO
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    @Asayre

    Allo, I know this may be beating a dead horse but I just need to make sure. I'm playing a magicka templar and I am using Puncturing Sweeps as my Main DPS ability, this means that I am using my champion points in both Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge, I'm not really investing a lot into Elfborn because every single ability I use is a DOT so I get a lot of benefit investing into Thaumaturge aswel.
    Would TBS be a better choice for me?
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  • Asayre
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    @eserras7b16_ESO, if you have 2 points into Elfborn Julianos will be better but the difference is really small and you're most likely better off going with TBS and enjoying the extra health.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • eserras7b16_ESO
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    Asayre wrote: »
    @eserras7b16_ESO, if you have 2 points into Elfborn Julianos will be better but the difference is really small and you're most likely better off going with TBS and enjoying the extra health.

    Thank you! Thou at last I crafted my Julianos and i've been able to reach 36k single target (on full buffs), if you may answer, What's doing more DPS, Puncturing Sweeps or Dark Flare, has this been investigated? At the moment i'm using puncturing Sweeps and they seem to hit like a truck.
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  • Asayre
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    I think Puncturing Sweep is preferred but that is just based on the two rotations I considered. You can read about what I think at http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/aedrics-warrior-magicka-build-templar-dd/#post-638573
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Shader_Shibes
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    So is it still TBS for up to 300cp, and Julianos for +300 cp?

    Debating whether or not to just craft my wife a Julianos set as she has like 150 cp or something now, or do TBS, then Julianos later.
    Edited by Shader_Shibes on March 21, 2016 12:49PM
  • Asayre
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    I've never been able to verify the claim for TBS up to 300 CP and Julianos above that. If your wife is at 150 CP it's probably better to use TBS because she'll need the health. Julianos is only better if you don't need the health.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Alcast
    Alcast
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    We pull A LOT more dps with Twice Born star in our raids. Both, Magicka and Stamina builds.
    Edited by Alcast on March 21, 2016 1:05PM
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  • Asayre
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    You have other buffs to take into account, @Alcast. I'm sure the theorycrafters in Hodor have a better model for your situation.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Shader_Shibes
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    @Alcast Yeah, you guys are more or less perma buffed by aggro warhorn etc etc in trials, while she will just be grinding to 300cp in Rkindaleft and doing dailies xD

    @Asayre Ok thanks. Her HP is fine really, 17k on both bars, being a migicka nb helps with that :p. Guess Julianos it is then
    Edited by Shader_Shibes on March 21, 2016 1:21PM
  • Asayre
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    @Shader_Shibes does she have health somewhere else? You'll only have 16809 health at max CP with Julianos (maybe more if you're a magicka NB). If she has health somewhere else then TBS will probably be better because you can convert that health from somewhere else into magicka.
    Edited by Asayre on March 21, 2016 1:23PM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
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