Experienced PVE Magicka NB DPS advice wanted

MrTarkanian48 · March 2016

Hello, I am on console, and can’t really evaluate my damage output accurately. I wanted to see if any experienced Magicka Nightblades could provide any input as to how to maximize DPS output.

Current Setup: V16 Altmer Nightblade. All gold gear. All divines. 5-1-1 with 2 points in undaunted mettle. 2 pc. Nerien’eth, 5 pc. Julianos. All 7 armor pieces with Kuta max mag glyphs. 3 arcane willpower w/ 3x Spell damage. All attributes into Magicka. 415 CP. Blue CP Tree: 100 in Thaumaturge, 1 in Spell Erosion, 37 in Elfborn. (I know this will change with TG update).

Bar One: Nirnhoned Torugs Destro (currently x magic damage, restore x magic enchant).
Inner Light
Structure Entropy
Funnel Health
Merciless Resolve
Siphoning Attacks
Ulti: Soul Harvest

Bar Two: DW 2 x Nirnhoned Torugs Swords
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Sap Essence
Crippling Grasp
Impale
Ulti: Interchange Ice Comet/Veil of Blades/Dawnbreaker of Smiting depending on environment

This setup typically puts me at around 43-44k Max mag, and over 19k health. Spell damage unbuffed is around 2.5K on Destro Bar, and closer to 3K on DW Bar. Crit % is usually around 67-69%. I joined a guild on PS4 who had me run a DPS test on Bloodspawn, and I completed in in 90 seconds exactly, but felt somewhat anxious and made some mistakes on my rotation.

This is my group dungeon setup. I double bar Inner Light for the Crit and Max Magicka. I also have been double barring Structured Entropy (SE) for a couple reasons: 1) Keeps my health above 19K so all attribute points can be invested in Magicka and not worry as much about health 2) Helps me maintain Major Sorcery Buff from range w/o burning tons of Spell Power pots (especially on easier content) 3) Lets me proc MOTG empower buff before Ultimates, Crippling Grasp, and Assassin’s Will Proc.

My rotation on boss fights is typically to buff with Merciless and Siphoning attacks on bar one. Then swap to Bar 2 and open with Entropy>Ultimate (Comet or Smiting) if available followed by Entropy>Cripple. I then swap back to bar one and medium attack weave with Funnel health x4 until Assassin’s Will proc. At this point Entropy>Assassins Will>Rebuff Merciless>MA weave w/Funnel x 4>Entropy>Assassin’s Will. Then Bar Swap and repeat from the beginning. I keep doing this until the boss gets low, and spam impale under 25%. I reapply Siphoning attacks every full rotation or so, and rarely have resource mgmt. issues, unless I get in a trash mob sap spam scenario. But even then its rare.

I am just wondering if any experienced NB’s can evaluate this and provide any advice/input on how to improve. I feel like my dps is decent, but am always looking for ways to improve.

1) I use Entropy a lot. Pretty much before every Ulti, Cripple, and Assassin’s Will to empower those abilities. I know it grants 20% increased damage, and feels like I can weave it in relatively quickly, but am I actually losing DPS by using this often?

2) I usually medium attack weave by holding down the attack button just enough that my character starts to draw the staff back, then release, and funnel health. I’ve noticed that if I light attack weave I can get through the 4x funnel weave faster and proc the bow sooner. Also more attacks typically means more frequent Lich Crystal procs. However, I have no idea how the damage of a Light Attack compares to a Medium Attack. Has anyone tested DPS between Light attack weave vs. Medium?

3) Any other pointers/advice is more than welcome

Shader_Shibes · March 2016

You want cripple on your front bar for starters, and siphon on your back bar.

mr_wazzabi · March 2016

I wouldn't worry about empowering cripple as the 20% only applies to the first hit, which isn't much.

Applying empower to assassin's will or burst ultimates is what i do.

You can also use meteor to empower assassin's will, which i love to do. So you can funnel health with light/medium weave x4, entropy, comet, assassin's will

I also put soul harvest on my aoe bar, so i get ultimate for mowing down trash mobs.

code65536 · March 2016

Your gear is fine.

Entropy weaving isn't a great idea. Each cast of Entropy is a cast of Funnel or another ability that you're not getting. I personally run spell power potions on cooldown: helps with resource management, gets me ultimate, and I don't have to use Entropy. It's expensive, though, so I use it only for the tougher content (Trials, vICP, vMA, etc.). For most other content, where it's a faceroll, I'll use Entropy. The health buff from Entropy isn't really that exciting: I run around with 18K health, and I do just fine.

Staff bar:
Funnel, Crippling Grasp, Merciless Resolve, Soul Harvest

DW bar:
Impale, Sap, Siphoning Attacks, Dawnbreaker/Veil/Meteor

Each bar has one flexible spot and Inner Light.

The idea here is that my staff bar is my single-target bar. I don't like having to barswap to keep my cripple up, and the only time I really need to barswap is when I switch to execute, where Impale on the DW bar makes more sense.

For magblades, the most mana-draining thing is AoE, which is why I like to keep SA on the same bar as my Sap. I usually don't bother with SA in single-target fights, though as my magicka starts to dip too much, I'll barswap to turn SA on to help.

Soul Harvest is actually a really good ultimate to use, not just to slot--that 20% damage buff applies to any damage you do to that target for the next 6 seconds. For single-target fights, if I can afford to be in melee range, I'll use it. It's like Empower--except so much better. Now, if I have a big ultimate like a meteor ready at the start of a boss fight, I'll go ahead and drop that at the start, but after that point, every time I get 50 ult, I'm using it to refresh my 20% damage buff.

As far as weaving goes, the best at the moment is light-weaving with the resto staff. Resto staves get a 25% damage boost from your 100 Thaumaturge points, and combined with light weaves being faster, it does more DPS than medium-weaving with a destro. But resto, being a channeled staff is harder to weave with (only light-weaving is possible), and that 25% damage advantage of the resto will go away after the CP changes in TG, so don't worry about changing to a resto if you like your destro.

Finally, the flexible spots... the front bar flex spot is usually Path, Blockade of Elements (if you have a Maelstrom destro staff), Entropy, Harness Magicka, or Healing Ward (if I'm using resto as my front bar--I really like resto front bar with Healing Ward for running vMA).

My back bar flex spot is currently taken by Proximity Detonation. It's awesome, particularly in trash pulls. Another good choice, if you're doing a stationary boss fight, is Rearming Trap, which will grant you up to 12s worth of Minor Force (a very substantial 12% extra crit damage).

HIghwayRobberBill · March 2016

1. you can swap Nerien’eth for 2pc kena and then light attack weave to keep the kena proc'd
2. shouldnt have to use siphoning attacks with a good healer around. have them use mystic orbs and siphon spirit to help you sustain. move cripple to front bar and put dark shades in its spot on back bar
3. dont double bar entropy , the 18k health should be more than enough on your back bar. use twisting path place of it(unless you have a maelstrom staff then you use elemental blockade)
4. use entropy only before ice comet and assassins will right after the comet
5. use ice comet on first bar and then viel or soul harvest on back bar(with impale and aoe on your back bar, most of the time you kill on that bar so you'll gain the ulti back faster )

my rotation: heavy attack->entropy->Shades-> Merciless Resolve-> Cripple-> Twisted Path-> Funnel->light attack weave

make sure to keep dots up, after first entropy only use it before ice comet and i only use ice comet before after assassins will procs to get the empower buff on the spectral bow shot.

after all this, proxi det and a maelstrom inferno staff are the next two ways to get your dps up

Yusuf · March 2016

Your gear is pretty good, even though molag kena and a maelstrom staff would be an improvement it's a good start.
However you don't need entropy at all if you're serious about dps (i'm assuming you're drinking essence of spellpower-potions when you want to deal maximum damage).

My bars are set like this with pretty much the same gear as you:

Destro: inner light, twisting path (or destructive reach, depending on the boss), merciless resolve, funnel health, crippling grasp; ultimate=ice comet

Dual Wield: Inner light, siphoning attacks, impale, proximity detonation, sap essence; Ultimate=soulharvest

Have soulharvest on the on your aoe-bar since you kill the most mobs with that and get the most benefit from it.
Anyways, these are all suggestions

MrTarkanian48 · March 2016

Thanks everyone for your input, lots of great info.

I definitely like the Comet>Assassin's Will suggestion.

Also plan on moving Soul Harvest/Siphoning Attacks to Bar 2, and Cripple/Meteor to bar one.

Good to know Empower only affects the initial hit of Cripple and not the DoT, so I'm done doing that.

Mag Det is a goal, but I have not PVPed much so its a ways off. Shouldn't be too tough though after TG update.

@Yusuf , @HIghwayRobberBill

I do not have a Kena Helm yet. But does Kena proc when weaving (LA>Funnel>LA)? Or do you need to break the weave and perform two consecutive light attacks every so often to keep it proc'ed?

Also, what kind of damage does twisting path do in comparison to Refreshing path? I currently have the refreshing morph for Maelstrom.

Also, still wondering if anyone has tesedt Light attack weaving vs. Medium Attack weaving, and which provides a better damage output

Yusuf · March 2016

@MrTarkanian48 , yes Kena does proc when you are weaving light attacks.
I believe twisting path does around 20% more damage compared to refreshing path and medium attack weaving in general does more damage than light attack weaving except when you finally get Molag Kena and can sustain that cost-increase.

code65536 · March 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

But does Kena proc when weaving (LA>Funnel>LA)?

It does (but only for some ability weaves; Funnel is one of them). And that's a bug. But it's a bug that's hard to fix (there's some discussion about it in other threads), which is likely why it hasn't been fixed yet despite ZOS's attempts to do so.

Anyway, I do not recommend Kena at all.

First, because it is such a hassle to use. Nerien'eth has the upside that it requires no special effort from you. With Kena, you have to keep it proc'ed, which means you must light-weave. Also, remember that Kena proc'ing off a weave is not intended and is a result of quirks in the combat system, and as such, it is a bit fickle. You'll find that being off with the cadence of the weave will make the procs fail.

Second, because of what it means for resource management. You won't always have a healer who will throw orbs at you, an you will run into resource issues if you're not careful. I don't like the extra resource micromanagement that I had to do when I used Kena.

Third, because it's bad for AoE fights. Nerien'eth adds a lot of DPS to AoE fights because it does AoE damage, and because Nightblades already have very poor AoE resource sustain (compared to sorcs or DKs, where ele drain + Destruction Mastery passive mean that they can sustain Impulse far more easily than you can sustain Sap), so you do not want Kena proc'ed for those trash pulls. Which, remember, make up most of PvE: short boss fights interspersed with lots of trash pulls.

Finally, Nerien'eth gives you a health bonus and keeps you a bit over 18K health if everything else is put into magicka. With Kena, you'll have less than 17K. If you're comfortable with that, great, but if not, then you'll need to switch some magicka into health, and that will erode away what little DPS advantage that Kena offers.

mr_wazzabi · March 2016

Typo post

HIghwayRobberBill · March 2016

@code65536 makes some valid points in favor of Nerien'eth over kena. the only part i dont agree with is its usefulness in aoe situations just because i have never been nor do i think anyone has ever been lacking dps fighting trash mobs. so i guess using either set is pretty circumstantial to the healer you have. regardless though, with a decent healer, kena will always out dps Nerien'eth.

Gilliamtherogue · March 2016

HIghwayRobberBill wrote: »

@code65536 makes some valid points in favor of Nerien'eth over kena. the only part i dont agree with is its usefulness in aoe situations just because i have never been nor do i think anyone has ever been lacking dps fighting trash mobs. so i guess using either set is pretty circumstantial to the healer you have. regardless though, with a decent healer, kena will always out dps Nerien'eth.

That's actually highly incorrect. The proc from Nerieneth easily crits upwards to 17k as a caster NB, even up to 20k in group settings with things like Aggressive Warhorn or Major Breach being applied. Kena is a great option but the resource drain can heavily impact rotations for longer fights if there is no Siphon Spirit. Mystic orbs can help alleviate this issue but there is an operational loss since it forces you to synergize them, sacrificing a full priority cycle for mediocre damage and magicka return. Nerieneth has no operational value for its proc and becomes multiplicatively stronger based on enemies nearby. Also 80% of our kit has the 10% chance to proc it, so it's going off like crazy.

Kena also forces you to drop a casted ability every time you need it to reproc since you need two light attacks to proc it. There is a way to exploit this by using two separate forms of range checks, such as a melee light attack and ranged ability or vice versa, as the game calculates abilities with different range checks at different intervals. Ranged attacks have a slight delay in calculation to melee, so if you do two light attacks with say a sword and weave funnel in between, the two light attacks will calculate damage before the funnel hits, therefor proccing Kena. You can also do this by using a ranged LA with a destro/resto/bow and then using something such as Concealed weapon (which actually out DPSes funnel health base line).

However the only time this would be possible is if you were using dual wield with a ranged attack such as Funnel, or a destro staff with Concealed weapon (which the cast of this cost is far too high to maintain a rotation with Kena active). Running dual wield as your main bar would be a significant loss, as weaving with a flame destruction staff is far stronger than gaining 5% on funnel/cripple/etc. The only time this is not applicable is in AoE situations with 3+ mobs, or at execute range.

If you would be willing to post some proof to counteract this statement, I would be glad to examine it and show you any flaws in it. After testing the two sets extensively, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nerieneth is BiS for caster nightblades, and stamina while we're at it. If you'd like more mathematical proof, head over to my stamina NB build discussion, I believe I dissect the two gains on page 2 or 3.

Gilliamtherogue · March 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Hello, I am on console, and can’t really evaluate my damage output accurately. I wanted to see if any experienced Magicka Nightblades could provide any input as to how to maximize DPS output.

Current Setup: V16 Altmer Nightblade. All gold gear. All divines. 5-1-1 with 2 points in undaunted mettle. 2 pc. Nerien’eth, 5 pc. Julianos. All 7 armor pieces with Kuta max mag glyphs. 3 arcane willpower w/ 3x Spell damage. All attributes into Magicka. 415 CP. Blue CP Tree: 100 in Thaumaturge, 1 in Spell Erosion, 37 in Elfborn. (I know this will change with TG update).

Bar One: Nirnhoned Torugs Destro (currently x magic damage, restore x magic enchant).
Inner Light
Structure Entropy
Funnel Health
Merciless Resolve
Siphoning Attacks
Ulti: Soul Harvest

Bar Two: DW 2 x Nirnhoned Torugs Swords
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Sap Essence
Crippling Grasp
Impale
Ulti: Interchange Ice Comet/Veil of Blades/Dawnbreaker of Smiting depending on environment

This setup typically puts me at around 43-44k Max mag, and over 19k health. Spell damage unbuffed is around 2.5K on Destro Bar, and closer to 3K on DW Bar. Crit % is usually around 67-69%. I joined a guild on PS4 who had me run a DPS test on Bloodspawn, and I completed in in 90 seconds exactly, but felt somewhat anxious and made some mistakes on my rotation.

This is my group dungeon setup. I double bar Inner Light for the Crit and Max Magicka. I also have been double barring Structured Entropy (SE) for a couple reasons: 1) Keeps my health above 19K so all attribute points can be invested in Magicka and not worry as much about health 2) Helps me maintain Major Sorcery Buff from range w/o burning tons of Spell Power pots (especially on easier content) 3) Lets me proc MOTG empower buff before Ultimates, Crippling Grasp, and Assassin’s Will Proc.

My rotation on boss fights is typically to buff with Merciless and Siphoning attacks on bar one. Then swap to Bar 2 and open with Entropy>Ultimate (Comet or Smiting) if available followed by Entropy>Cripple. I then swap back to bar one and medium attack weave with Funnel health x4 until Assassin’s Will proc. At this point Entropy>Assassins Will>Rebuff Merciless>MA weave w/Funnel x 4>Entropy>Assassin’s Will. Then Bar Swap and repeat from the beginning. I keep doing this until the boss gets low, and spam impale under 25%. I reapply Siphoning attacks every full rotation or so, and rarely have resource mgmt. issues, unless I get in a trash mob sap spam scenario. But even then its rare.

I am just wondering if any experienced NB’s can evaluate this and provide any advice/input on how to improve. I feel like my dps is decent, but am always looking for ways to improve.

1) I use Entropy a lot. Pretty much before every Ulti, Cripple, and Assassin’s Will to empower those abilities. I know it grants 20% increased damage, and feels like I can weave it in relatively quickly, but am I actually losing DPS by using this often?

2) I usually medium attack weave by holding down the attack button just enough that my character starts to draw the staff back, then release, and funnel health. I’ve noticed that if I light attack weave I can get through the 4x funnel weave faster and proc the bow sooner. Also more attacks typically means more frequent Lich Crystal procs. However, I have no idea how the damage of a Light Attack compares to a Medium Attack. Has anyone tested DPS between Light attack weave vs. Medium?

3) Any other pointers/advice is more than welcome

Gear and CP allocation is pretty solid, although Twice Born Star slightly out preforms Julianous in PvE DPS situations, while offering added survivability.

Your bars are mostly correct, but some minor adjustments as others have stated could definitely bolster your numbers. The following is currently the top setup for most encounters;

Maelstrom Destro Staff bar; Blockade of Fire, Concealed Weapon (swap out to funnel if your group needs heals or you cannot commit to melee range, however Concealed will out damage funnel easily when you get the weave timing down), Crippling Grasp, Merciless Resolve, Inner Light, Soul Harvest

Dual wield Torug Swords bar; Impale, Sap Essence, Proximity Detonation (If you're not high enough AvA rank you can use Dark Shades here), Siphoning Attacks, Inner Light, Shooting Star (out preforms Ice Comet with a DK in group applying Engulfing Flames)/Smiting Dawnbreaker. Veil is only taken if your group needs damage mitigation, but your DPS will suffer greatly for it.

Sap Essence/Spell Power pots should be your form of Major Sorcery, and the 20% gain on empower is highly negligible as Crippling Grasp no longer receives the 20% bonus on all ticks. Also spending empower on an ability and sacrificing a light weave has a heavy operational cost that many people over look.

Medium weaving is good, but is only favored in short term fights (under 1 minute) or fights with absolutely no AoE. Light weaving is preferred on longer fights as it does not incur any added time to the priority system of abilities. There is also a very nasty bug that has been around since the Orsinium patch, that completely locks heavy attacks, so you may run into this and lose considerable DPS.

It's good that you're recasting Merciless after casting it on the 4th weave, as this is the way to go. Sometimes it may be better to reapply a DoT before recasting Merciless, as you may notice slight dips every time you recast after, as you force yourself to stop all damage output (except DoTs) while recasting the ability. Unfortunately since you are on console you cannot see debuff duration such as DoTs so this is left to your sense of timing.

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

HIghwayRobberBill wrote: »

@code65536 makes some valid points in favor of Nerien'eth over kena. the only part i dont agree with is its usefulness in aoe situations just because i have never been nor do i think anyone has ever been lacking dps fighting trash mobs. so i guess using either set is pretty circumstantial to the healer you have. regardless though, with a decent healer, kena will always out dps Nerien'eth.

That's actually highly incorrect. The proc from Nerieneth easily crits upwards to 17k as a caster NB, even up to 20k in group settings with things like Aggressive Warhorn or Major Breach being applied. Kena is a great option but the resource drain can heavily impact rotations for longer fights if there is no Siphon Spirit. Mystic orbs can help alleviate this issue but there is an operational loss since it forces you to synergize them, sacrificing a full priority cycle for mediocre damage and magicka return. Nerieneth has no operational value for its proc and becomes multiplicatively stronger based on enemies nearby. Also 80% of our kit has the 10% chance to proc it, so it's going off like crazy.

Kena also forces you to drop a casted ability every time you need it to reproc since you need two light attacks to proc it. There is a way to exploit this by using two separate forms of range checks, such as a melee light attack and ranged ability or vice versa, as the game calculates abilities with different range checks at different intervals. Ranged attacks have a slight delay in calculation to melee, so if you do two light attacks with say a sword and weave funnel in between, the two light attacks will calculate damage before the funnel hits, therefor proccing Kena. You can also do this by using a ranged LA with a destro/resto/bow and then using something such as Concealed weapon (which actually out DPSes funnel health base line).

However the only time this would be possible is if you were using dual wield with a ranged attack such as Funnel, or a destro staff with Concealed weapon (which the cast of this cost is far too high to maintain a rotation with Kena active). Running dual wield as your main bar would be a significant loss, as weaving with a flame destruction staff is far stronger than gaining 5% on funnel/cripple/etc. The only time this is not applicable is in AoE situations with 3+ mobs, or at execute range.

If you would be willing to post some proof to counteract this statement, I would be glad to examine it and show you any flaws in it. After testing the two sets extensively, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nerieneth is BiS for caster nightblades, and stamina while we're at it. If you'd like more mathematical proof, head over to my stamina NB build discussion, I believe I dissect the two gains on page 2 or 3.

I've noticed this same thing on my caster blade. The longer the fight is, the better nerieneth seems to do. between the free damage and the ability to medium weave every skill I believe it is definitely on par or better than Kena.

MrTarkanian48 · March 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

Thanks for all of the advice. It is much appreciated.

Still don't have proxy det. I am assuming Dark Shades is preferred over Shadow Image? I would assume 2 shades do twice as much damage as one? Can the Shade's attacks crit? Also, does each attack re-apply minor maim, or do you only have it for the first 4 seconds?

How is weaving CW in terms of resource management? One thing I liked about Funnel Health is how cheap it is. With SA up my magicka bar barely moves. I currently have 100 CP in Magician, and am slowly investing in Arcanist til I hit the cap (I think I have 39 in now) . With SA up will CW still deplete resources quickly?

Gilliamtherogue · March 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

Thanks for all of the advice. It is much appreciated.

Still don't have proxy det. I am assuming Dark Shades is preferred over Shadow Image? I would assume 2 shades do twice as much damage as one? Can the Shade's attacks crit? Also, does each attack re-apply minor maim, or do you only have it for the first 4 seconds?

How is weaving CW in terms of resource management? One thing I liked about Funnel Health is how cheap it is. With SA up my magicka bar barely moves. I currently have 100 CP in Magician, and am slowly investing in Arcanist til I hit the cap (I think I have 39 in now) . With SA up will CW still deplete resources quickly?

Dark Shades takes a slight damage reduction per shade, but both of them combined out preforms Shadow Image, about 140% of Shadow Image (so 40% more damage). It also increases the potency based on crit chance, as two mobs with the same crit chance is more likely to crit than one. Each strike does apply Minor Maim, so it'll last 4 seconds after the shades stop attacking. In fights with high mobility the shades lose some of their DPS as their pathing is awful, but it still out preforms Twisting Path since you don't need to reapply it if something walks out of it.

Concealed Weapon costs roughly double the magicka than funnel, so if you fail to keep up Siphoning Attacks you will notice a loss. However with Siphoning Attacks you should never drop under 40% magicka, unless you stop DPSing and simply spam defensive abilities over and over (only really applicable in vMA, but you'd use Funnel there anyways for the self healing over Concealed). With the slight buff to Siphoning Attack's light attack and proc chance resource return, casters will actually see more resource return from the change, while stamina and tanks will see a heavy nerf to resource management in the Thieves Guild.

Also as a High Elf you gain slightly more efficiency out of Magicka Regen, so you may want to split between Arcanist and Magician a little bit. With the current CP cap I run 92 Mag and 75 Arcanist.

revonine · March 2016

Swap your ultimates. With Soul Harvest on your AOE bar you'll build ultimate really quickly AOE-ing trash packs. Also there's no need for entropy on both bars, especially the dual wield one as Sap provides Major Sorcery. Consider running Twisting Patch it's a very nice DoT

Autolycus · March 2016

Pretty good advice here. My opinion differs slightly from what others are saying here, but I won't knock out or discredit those opinions, particularly those from reputable sources I recognize in this thread (whom I know do a significant bit of a testing and analysis). I've come to slightly different conclusions through my own testing and theorycrafting, but the difference is slight, and arguably negligible anyway.

I would recommend swapping your funnel health for your siphoning attacks; simply swap them on their respective bars. Gear looks good, CP and attribute allocations look good. You're pretty much right where you want to be.

I would trade out entropy altogether (even at the cost of the added max magicka and recovery) for wall of elements and vMA destro instead. The DoT damage from WoE outpaces the damage from both the max magicka and the DoT component of entropy, plus the duration is so short for WoE that you benefit from having it on your main bar. If you prefer not to use potions to keep your major sorcery active, then sap essence every 20s and you're solid.

Through my testing, I've ascertained that inner light is unnecessary for magicka NBs who are in a position as good as yours. We can make arguments that support either choice here, so ultimately I suggest that you test and go with what you find to be optimal (or your preference). However, I've gotten rid of Inner Light altogether in PvE and taken Impale instead, which provides a flat 3% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Do not trade inner light out if you drop below 50% crit by doing so.

I've done several blood spawn tests to determine whether or not meteor and soul harvest are interchangeable on a single-target bar, and the results were very close. There was only a 400pt DPS difference between soul harvest and meteor in those tests, all else constant. The real deciding factor here is the length of the fight. The longer the fight is, the move viable meteor becomes.

code65536 · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Through my testing, I've ascertained that inner light is unnecessary for magicka NBs who are in a position as good as yours. We can make arguments that support either choice here, so ultimately I suggest that you test and go with what you find to be optimal (or your preference). However, I've gotten rid of Inner Light altogether in PvE and taken Impale instead, which provides a flat 3% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Do not trade inner light out if you drop below 50% crit by doing so.

Absolutely not.

7% max magicka (5% from the max-rank skill, 2% from MG passive for slotting) translates to a couple thousand extra max magicka (on my nb, that's 41163 -> 43486 = 2323 extra magicka). That's the equivalent of a couple hundred extra Spell Damage (2323 / 10.5 = 221 equivalent SD). Inner Light is required for any class's PvE magicka DPS build for that reason alone. The 10% spell crit is just icing on top (since that component can be easily replaced by potions).

Also, slotting Impale will grant only a 2% extra crit chance (2% slot bonus, not 3%), and the 10% crit damage will not stack if you have multiple Assassination skills; i.e., you don't get 20% if you have two, so just make sure each bar has at least one Assassination skill. Merciless on the staff bar and Impale (and/or Soul Harvest) on the dual-wield bar are your sources of that 10% slot bonus.

And in PvE, I would consider 50% crit chance to be too low for high-end DPS.

HIghwayRobberBill · March 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

HIghwayRobberBill wrote: »

@code65536 makes some valid points in favor of Nerien'eth over kena. the only part i dont agree with is its usefulness in aoe situations just because i have never been nor do i think anyone has ever been lacking dps fighting trash mobs. so i guess using either set is pretty circumstantial to the healer you have. regardless though, with a decent healer, kena will always out dps Nerien'eth.

That's actually highly incorrect. The proc from Nerieneth easily crits upwards to 17k as a caster NB, even up to 20k in group settings with things like Aggressive Warhorn or Major Breach being applied. Kena is a great option but the resource drain can heavily impact rotations for longer fights if there is no Siphon Spirit. Mystic orbs can help alleviate this issue but there is an operational loss since it forces you to synergize them, sacrificing a full priority cycle for mediocre damage and magicka return. Nerieneth has no operational value for its proc and becomes multiplicatively stronger based on enemies nearby. Also 80% of our kit has the 10% chance to proc it, so it's going off like crazy.

Kena also forces you to drop a casted ability every time you need it to reproc since you need two light attacks to proc it. There is a way to exploit this by using two separate forms of range checks, such as a melee light attack and ranged ability or vice versa, as the game calculates abilities with different range checks at different intervals. Ranged attacks have a slight delay in calculation to melee, so if you do two light attacks with say a sword and weave funnel in between, the two light attacks will calculate damage before the funnel hits, therefor proccing Kena. You can also do this by using a ranged LA with a destro/resto/bow and then using something such as Concealed weapon (which actually out DPSes funnel health base line).

However the only time this would be possible is if you were using dual wield with a ranged attack such as Funnel, or a destro staff with Concealed weapon (which the cast of this cost is far too high to maintain a rotation with Kena active). Running dual wield as your main bar would be a significant loss, as weaving with a flame destruction staff is far stronger than gaining 5% on funnel/cripple/etc. The only time this is not applicable is in AoE situations with 3+ mobs, or at execute range.

If you would be willing to post some proof to counteract this statement, I would be glad to examine it and show you any flaws in it. After testing the two sets extensively, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Nerieneth is BiS for caster nightblades, and stamina while we're at it. If you'd like more mathematical proof, head over to my stamina NB build discussion, I believe I dissect the two gains on page 2 or 3.

lol highly incorrect? yea you are definitely "highly" incorrect in your statement there pal. kena + aggressive warhorn and major breach will still do more than nerieneth with those two. its not like nerieneth gets some special buff for using aggresive warhorn that kena does not . if you read what i wrote, i stated its circumstantial to the healer you have. so if you have a healer that can help with resource management, then again kena will out dps nerieneth. nerieneth is only multiplicatively stronger because its hitting multiple adds. doesnt really help when you have only the one boss standing in front of you.

dont know what your talking about, you can proc kena with funnel health and destro (well at least for the time being, since they have mentioned its not working as intended and it should not proc while weaving this way) light attack-> funnel health->light attack. maybe thats where you screwed up your testing. i could see how trying to proc kena the two ways you mentioned could cause a dps loss. oh and you run double destro to proc it during execute. ive tried proc'ing kena with melee attacks using swords during execute but i still have to test to see if using a melee attack on a magicka character is actually a dps loss compared to just using impale without the proc. btw even though the baseline dmg is higher on concealed weapon, i hit for 8777 dmg with concealed vs 8133 with funnel for twice the magicka cost.that 600 dmg is definitely not worth it.

feel free to check out the NB theory crafting section over at tamrielfoundy.com. there are dps parses, pictures and calcs that all prove kena is better with the right healer. you never know, you might find some tips to improve your stamblade set up too(which btw is oddly very similar to jeckll's build)

MrTarkanian48 · March 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Hello, I am on console, and can’t really evaluate my damage output accurately. I wanted to see if any experienced Magicka Nightblades could provide any input as to how to maximize DPS output.

Current Setup: V16 Altmer Nightblade. All gold gear. All divines. 5-1-1 with 2 points in undaunted mettle. 2 pc. Nerien’eth, 5 pc. Julianos. All 7 armor pieces with Kuta max mag glyphs. 3 arcane willpower w/ 3x Spell damage. All attributes into Magicka. 415 CP. Blue CP Tree: 100 in Thaumaturge, 1 in Spell Erosion, 37 in Elfborn. (I know this will change with TG update).

Bar One: Nirnhoned Torugs Destro (currently x magic damage, restore x magic enchant).
Inner Light
Structure Entropy
Funnel Health
Merciless Resolve
Siphoning Attacks
Ulti: Soul Harvest

Bar Two: DW 2 x Nirnhoned Torugs Swords
Inner Light
Structured Entropy
Sap Essence
Crippling Grasp
Impale
Ulti: Interchange Ice Comet/Veil of Blades/Dawnbreaker of Smiting depending on environment

This setup typically puts me at around 43-44k Max mag, and over 19k health. Spell damage unbuffed is around 2.5K on Destro Bar, and closer to 3K on DW Bar. Crit % is usually around 67-69%. I joined a guild on PS4 who had me run a DPS test on Bloodspawn, and I completed in in 90 seconds exactly, but felt somewhat anxious and made some mistakes on my rotation.

This is my group dungeon setup. I double bar Inner Light for the Crit and Max Magicka. I also have been double barring Structured Entropy (SE) for a couple reasons: 1) Keeps my health above 19K so all attribute points can be invested in Magicka and not worry as much about health 2) Helps me maintain Major Sorcery Buff from range w/o burning tons of Spell Power pots (especially on easier content) 3) Lets me proc MOTG empower buff before Ultimates, Crippling Grasp, and Assassin’s Will Proc.

My rotation on boss fights is typically to buff with Merciless and Siphoning attacks on bar one. Then swap to Bar 2 and open with Entropy>Ultimate (Comet or Smiting) if available followed by Entropy>Cripple. I then swap back to bar one and medium attack weave with Funnel health x4 until Assassin’s Will proc. At this point Entropy>Assassins Will>Rebuff Merciless>MA weave w/Funnel x 4>Entropy>Assassin’s Will. Then Bar Swap and repeat from the beginning. I keep doing this until the boss gets low, and spam impale under 25%. I reapply Siphoning attacks every full rotation or so, and rarely have resource mgmt. issues, unless I get in a trash mob sap spam scenario. But even then its rare.

I am just wondering if any experienced NB’s can evaluate this and provide any advice/input on how to improve. I feel like my dps is decent, but am always looking for ways to improve.

1) I use Entropy a lot. Pretty much before every Ulti, Cripple, and Assassin’s Will to empower those abilities. I know it grants 20% increased damage, and feels like I can weave it in relatively quickly, but am I actually losing DPS by using this often?

2) I usually medium attack weave by holding down the attack button just enough that my character starts to draw the staff back, then release, and funnel health. I’ve noticed that if I light attack weave I can get through the 4x funnel weave faster and proc the bow sooner. Also more attacks typically means more frequent Lich Crystal procs. However, I have no idea how the damage of a Light Attack compares to a Medium Attack. Has anyone tested DPS between Light attack weave vs. Medium?

3) Any other pointers/advice is more than welcome

Gear and CP allocation is pretty solid, although Twice Born Star slightly out preforms Julianous in PvE DPS situations, while offering added survivability.

Your bars are mostly correct, but some minor adjustments as others have stated could definitely bolster your numbers. The following is currently the top setup for most encounters;

Maelstrom Destro Staff bar; Blockade of Fire, Concealed Weapon (swap out to funnel if your group needs heals or you cannot commit to melee range, however Concealed will out damage funnel easily when you get the weave timing down), Crippling Grasp, Merciless Resolve, Inner Light, Soul Harvest

Dual wield Torug Swords bar; Impale, Sap Essence, Proximity Detonation (If you're not high enough AvA rank you can use Dark Shades here), Siphoning Attacks, Inner Light, Shooting Star (out preforms Ice Comet with a DK in group applying Engulfing Flames)/Smiting Dawnbreaker. Veil is only taken if your group needs damage mitigation, but your DPS will suffer greatly for it.

Sap Essence/Spell Power pots should be your form of Major Sorcery, and the 20% gain on empower is highly negligible as Crippling Grasp no longer receives the 20% bonus on all ticks. Also spending empower on an ability and sacrificing a light weave has a heavy operational cost that many people over look.

Medium weaving is good, but is only favored in short term fights (under 1 minute) or fights with absolutely no AoE. Light weaving is preferred on longer fights as it does not incur any added time to the priority system of abilities. There is also a very nasty bug that has been around since the Orsinium patch, that completely locks heavy attacks, so you may run into this and lose considerable DPS.

It's good that you're recasting Merciless after casting it on the 4th weave, as this is the way to go. Sometimes it may be better to reapply a DoT before recasting Merciless, as you may notice slight dips every time you recast after, as you force yourself to stop all damage output (except DoTs) while recasting the ability. Unfortunately since you are on console you cannot see debuff duration such as DoTs so this is left to your sense of timing.

@Gilliamtherogue

Have you done any testing on ideal Mage CP distribution on this setup since the TG patch? Specifically spreading points between Elemental Expert, Thaumaturge, Elfborn, Spell Erosion, Staff Expert. Its my understanding that Proxy Det is considered a DoT, as well as Elemental Blockade and Crippling Grasp, however, I am unsure of what ideal ratio between the previously mentioned options would be.

I know that @Asayre had put a really great Excel worksheet here which helps with these calculations, however, being on console I do not have the ability to review DPS parses and determine the DoT/Elemental/Staff ratios.

Autolycus · March 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Through my testing, I've ascertained that inner light is unnecessary for magicka NBs who are in a position as good as yours. We can make arguments that support either choice here, so ultimately I suggest that you test and go with what you find to be optimal (or your preference). However, I've gotten rid of Inner Light altogether in PvE and taken Impale instead, which provides a flat 3% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Do not trade inner light out if you drop below 50% crit by doing so.

Absolutely not.

7% max magicka (5% from the max-rank skill, 2% from MG passive for slotting) translates to a couple thousand extra max magicka (on my nb, that's 41163 -> 43486 = 2323 extra magicka). That's the equivalent of a couple hundred extra Spell Damage (2323 / 10.5 = 221 equivalent SD). Inner Light is required for any class's PvE magicka DPS build for that reason alone. The 10% spell crit is just icing on top (since that component can be easily replaced by potions).

Also, slotting Impale will grant only a 2% extra crit chance (2% slot bonus, not 3%), and the 10% crit damage will not stack if you have multiple Assassination skills; i.e., you don't get 20% if you have two, so just make sure each bar has at least one Assassination skill. Merciless on the staff bar and Impale (and/or Soul Harvest) on the dual-wield bar are your sources of that 10% slot bonus.

And in PvE, I would consider 50% crit chance to be too low for high-end DPS.

This was pre-TG. I've since changed it, but prior to TG I would still disagree with you. This setup didn't pull less than 20k before. Now I use Inner Light on both bars, so I retract my previous advice. Also, 50% crit chance is a minimum, and I think I implied that. Of course you can go higher, and in many cases, doing so will increase your overall potential damage output, so we're in agreement here pretty much. All I said is that taking Inner Light off of your bar would be a bad idea if you weren't at 50% at least without it. And yes, 7% max magicka is substantial.

For the record, "absolutely not" implies you know my build, rotation, stats, etc. and that you are certain you are correct. It's fine to disagree, but your perspective is different from mine. I wouldn't presume to understand everything just because you do it differently. I'm fully aware of the crit damage implications you detailed as well; this isn't my first rodeo. I listed this info with a disclaimer that stated the recommendations were appropriate given my build and my testing. With this setup, I beat vMA, solo'd every (soloable) vet dungeon, taken 5:1 K/D in cyrodiil consistently, and successfully completed every trial on hardmode on numerous occasions. I could make the argument that Inner Light was more of a liability for certain builds, but it's irrelevant now since the release of TG. Now I presume we both take the same stance on it.

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Through my testing, I've ascertained that inner light is unnecessary for magicka NBs who are in a position as good as yours. We can make arguments that support either choice here, so ultimately I suggest that you test and go with what you find to be optimal (or your preference). However, I've gotten rid of Inner Light altogether in PvE and taken Impale instead, which provides a flat 3% crit chance and 10% crit damage. Do not trade inner light out if you drop below 50% crit by doing so.

Absolutely not.

7% max magicka (5% from the max-rank skill, 2% from MG passive for slotting) translates to a couple thousand extra max magicka (on my nb, that's 41163 -> 43486 = 2323 extra magicka). That's the equivalent of a couple hundred extra Spell Damage (2323 / 10.5 = 221 equivalent SD). Inner Light is required for any class's PvE magicka DPS build for that reason alone. The 10% spell crit is just icing on top (since that component can be easily replaced by potions).

Also, slotting Impale will grant only a 2% extra crit chance (2% slot bonus, not 3%), and the 10% crit damage will not stack if you have multiple Assassination skills; i.e., you don't get 20% if you have two, so just make sure each bar has at least one Assassination skill. Merciless on the staff bar and Impale (and/or Soul Harvest) on the dual-wield bar are your sources of that 10% slot bonus.

And in PvE, I would consider 50% crit chance to be too low for high-end DPS.

This was pre-TG. I've since changed it, but prior to TG I would still disagree with you. This setup didn't pull less than 20k before. Now I use Inner Light on both bars, so I retract my previous advice. Also, 50% crit chance is a minimum, and I think I implied that. Of course you can go higher, and in many cases, doing so will increase your overall potential damage output, so we're in agreement here pretty much. All I said is that taking Inner Light off of your bar would be a bad idea if you weren't at 50% at least without it. And yes, 7% max magicka is substantial.

For the record, "absolutely not" implies you know my build, rotation, stats, etc. and that you are certain you are correct. It's fine to disagree, but your perspective is different from mine. I wouldn't presume to understand everything just because you do it differently. I'm fully aware of the crit damage implications you detailed as well; this isn't my first rodeo. I listed this info with a disclaimer that stated the recommendations were appropriate given my build and my testing. With this setup, I beat vMA, solo'd every (soloable) vet dungeon, taken 5:1 K/D in cyrodiil consistently, and successfully completed every trial on hardmode on numerous occasions. I could make the argument that Inner Light was more of a liability for certain builds, but it's irrelevant now since the release of TG. Now I presume we both take the same stance on it.

You can definitely play how you want and I think theoretically you can solo anything with having just funnel health and sap essence on your bar, but that doesn't mean that it is the set up that can pull the best numbers. I can tell you that pre TG and post TG if you didn't have Inner Light on your bar you would never do as much damage as a person who did have it. NB prior to TG pulled 33k+ on short duration fights and 26-30k on long duration fights. Now they pull 40-55 on short duration fights and 30-35 on long duration fights. These numbers would not be possible w/o Inner light.