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Why did they make Meteor un-reflectable? I don't see the sense of it.

  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Recremen wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Recremen wrote: »
    I think now that Meteor is not reflectable the knockback should be removed.

    I think that makes it fair, it does high damage and a DOT but no knockback. I think thats really all that needs to be done now, but im not sure they will do that.

    That would also fix the problem, yeah.

    No, it would not - who cares wether Meteor has a cc attached to it or not when he can just cast an unbreakable cc on the target before the impact anyway? :confounded:

    Because Meteor is most broken in group play and that's where all the complaints are really coming from. Sure, it's still pretty great in dueling or whatever, but it's the coordinated cast of large numbers of meteors that has been causing problems, and will cause worse problems in the future. A single-target CC plus some burst damage isn't the worst thing in the world, but when an enemy group is all dropping unavoidable follow-you-anywhere AoE burst and AoE CC with a single ultimate, you run into problems, especially when lag kicks in hard (which, let's be honest, is more frequent than infrequent). So for every meteor cast, 6 of your group members risk going up into the air. Oh, it's fine, they can block! Except for every CC there's a chance the CC immunity will simply fail because of the lag, and that's 6 CC per meteor, and several meteors. What ends up happening is you'll be blocking, have immovable pots up, and doing all the right things, but then you get ping-ponged around the screen anyway because of how unreliable the CC immunity is.

    Currently, if people are trying to run this against you, you can have a really brave or foolish DK run Guard and Reflective Scales and just try to reflect all the meteors back at the group dropping them on you in unison. This does not work perfectly, and the DK usually dies in the process, but it somewhat levels the playing field because a handful of the meteors get reflected back and it's just a CC/burst crapshoot where everyone loses. My guild only had to put up with the coordinated drops fro a few days before our opponents caught wise and stopped the BS. Now we still get meteored, but they have to spread it out so there's less risk. Sometimes, we'll even see ultimates that aren't Meteor!! Not often, though.

    Next patch, however, that all changes, and it will jsut be meteors for days from everyone forever.

    So going back to my post, your large group cares because your enemies aren't using unblockable cc on you in those fights. I don't really know why you would assume "that's where all the complaints are coming from" though. Mine surely aren't.
    In the end, taking away it's cc doesn't balance the ultimate, by requiring any skill to use or providing counters. Instead it straight out nerfs it for some builds and doesn't affect others - who actually get the most out of the ultimate already - at all.
    Edited by ToRelax on February 27, 2016 4:51AM
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • RoamingRiverElk
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    Meteor either needs to be reflectable or roll dodgeable. That is what makes it counterable enough in relation to its immense strength.

    Magicka sorc shield stacking and nightblade cloaking (when they get lucky and can do so) cannot be the only counters to this extremely high damage ultimate that can be combined with other burst abilities to hit the target at the same time. Trying to block is not effective enough as long as there are skills in the game that force you to drop block, get CC'd, and wait for a long time to get the control of your character back after the CC break animation has finally finished.
    Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
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    the way i see it. meteor was made un-reflectable because they made it so projectiles can only be reflected once. thus if they kept it as being reflectable it would be kinda cheap that someone could use a base ability to negate your ultimate while you have no way of countering it.

    at any rate it's not that big of a deal. block it then use shuffle to get rid of the snare.

    @RoamingRiverElk if people CC you and force you to take the brunt of their ult with no mitigation. you simply got outplayed. when i use ice comet i streak though the target(s) and stun them to prevent reflect in the current live. CC is the counter to reflect not the other way around.
    Edited by Lucky28 on February 27, 2016 9:46AM
    Invictus
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
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    Recremen wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Here are the reasons it is not be reflectable (as per my understanding)

    1. It is a meteor - even if it is reflectable it should be reflected to the sky.
    2. This ability is extremely loud, shiny and very slow - it is too easy to reflect it and too punishable for the caster to end up eating his own ultimate.
    3. You'd say l2p and choose your target - I say l2p and counter the meteor - you have ton of time to buff you up to put snare immunity to block and to get out of meteor area

    The only con argument is:
    How dare they take away the the fun part(meteor reflect) from the DKs now!... when they are just back in business!!
    And all other l2p arguments are brought to the forums just to disguise this real con (selfish) part that all DKs are really concerned with.

    Actually, two classes have a reflect against meteor, along with everyone running with a shield and slotting the reflect skill, so trying to pin this on DKs is incorrect.

    If you actually read other posts here, you'd see that the "buff and block" rhetoric is a house of straw, and that the skill needs a significant rework. It already needs a rework on live, but reflectable meteors at least mitigate the issue. Now that they will not be reflectable, the whole things needs to get looked at again.

    It is just one class that does it effectively - with 99% success rate.
  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Didgerion wrote: »
    Here are the reasons it is not be reflectable (as per my understanding)

    1. It is a meteor - even if it is reflectable it should be reflected to the sky.
    2. This ability is extremely loud, shiny and very slow - it is too easy to reflect it and too punishable for the caster to end up eating his own ultimate.
    3. You'd say l2p and choose your target - I say l2p and counter the meteor - you have ton of time to buff you up to put snare immunity to block and to get out of meteor area

    The only con argument is:
    How dare they take away the the fun part(meteor reflect) from the DKs now!... when they are just back in business!!
    And all other l2p arguments are brought to the forums just to disguise this real con (selfish) part that all DKs are really concerned with.

    Completely false comparison.

    1. LOL, this is a video game not real life.
    2. The reason you should be punished for using this ability unwisely is because it is targeted and cannot be avoided and it had a 15k+ tooltip plus hard CC, e.g. really strong.
    3. Reflecting isnt a counter? What about stam builds w/o shields? What happens when four people cast meteor?

    RE: DKs complaining. Since every class in the game gets to use this skill this is absolutely not a DK-only issue.
  • RoamingRiverElk
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    Lucky28 wrote: »
    the way i see it. meteor was made un-reflectable because they made it so projectiles can only be reflected once. thus if they kept it as being reflectable it would be kinda cheap that someone could use a base ability to negate your ultimate while you have no way of countering it.

    at any rate it's not that big of a deal. block it then use shuffle to get rid of the snare.

    @RoamingRiverElk if people CC you and force you to take the brunt of their ult with no mitigation. you simply got outplayed. when i use ice comet i streak though the target(s) and stun them to prevent reflect in the current live. CC is the counter to reflect not the other way around.

    There isn't really anything to outplay when there's no proper counter to it - there used to be though. Magicka sorcs still have a counter, but that doesn't exactly help DKs and templars.
    Edited by RoamingRiverElk on February 27, 2016 2:38PM
    Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
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    Lucky28 wrote: »
    the way i see it. meteor was made un-reflectable because they made it so projectiles can only be reflected once. thus if they kept it as being reflectable it would be kinda cheap that someone could use a base ability to negate your ultimate while you have no way of countering it.

    at any rate it's not that big of a deal. block it then use shuffle to get rid of the snare.

    @RoamingRiverElk if people CC you and force you to take the brunt of their ult with no mitigation. you simply got outplayed. when i use ice comet i streak though the target(s) and stun them to prevent reflect in the current live. CC is the counter to reflect not the other way around.

    There isn't really anything to outplay when there's no proper counter to it - there used to be though. Magicka sorcs still have a counter, but that doesn't exactly help DKs and templars.

    It can be blocked and you can use Shuffle to get rid of the snare. i think you're making a bigger deal of this then it needs to be.
    Edited by Lucky28 on February 27, 2016 3:34PM
    Invictus
  • RoamingRiverElk
    RoamingRiverElk
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    Lucky28 wrote: »
    Lucky28 wrote: »
    the way i see it. meteor was made un-reflectable because they made it so projectiles can only be reflected once. thus if they kept it as being reflectable it would be kinda cheap that someone could use a base ability to negate your ultimate while you have no way of countering it.

    at any rate it's not that big of a deal. block it then use shuffle to get rid of the snare.

    @RoamingRiverElk if people CC you and force you to take the brunt of their ult with no mitigation. you simply got outplayed. when i use ice comet i streak though the target(s) and stun them to prevent reflect in the current live. CC is the counter to reflect not the other way around.

    There isn't really anything to outplay when there's no proper counter to it - there used to be though. Magicka sorcs still have a counter, but that doesn't exactly help DKs and templars.

    It can be blocked and you can use Shuffle to get rid of the snare. i think you're making a bigger deal of this then it needs to be.

    Everyone's experiences vary of course. My opinion is based on a large number of hours playing magicka DK and magicka sorcerer in small outnumbered groups, and also stamina DK to an extent. I just know that magicka DKs will be in huge trouble with this change, and I can't imagine why templars wouldn't be too. You can take some of the edge off with harness magicka, but it's not a huge shield, and magicka DKs and templars who want to be more than glass cannons need to spec into max health (and max stamina), which directly impacts the size of harness magicka. Nor will they likely invest 100 CP in making Harness Magicka the maximum strength it could be. I doubt many magicka DKs will even have space on their bars for the skill because they already need to slot igneous shield for stamina return and 25% increased healing. Igneous Shield strength itself is laughable, however. And then there's the stamina DKs, who will never be slotting Harness Magicka.

    The other layer of this issue is whether we want to have a game where there are more, or less, counters to different attacks. I prefer a more complex game where you have a variety of options for doing builds and where you do have the option to invest into counters, and which also do not gimp your build totally for it. The magicka sorcerer build with sword and shield will die due to no double reflect and meteor not being reflectable. But that was a build I appreciated, even though I didn't play that myself. I will mourn the loss of the double reflect as a DK even when it could be used against me to boost Meteor to do even more damage to me if I was attacked with it and it was reflected twice before hitting me. At least someone wasn't just continuously spamming one huge damage attack skill on me.

    Reflect was a counter to an extremely powerful ultimate that does not have many counters. Meteor really does need to be able to be dodged with dodge roll, if it is no longer reflectable. Otherwise, this is simply another step on the road to the game sliding towards who attacks first and has more damage, and who have more people on their side. I don't believe there is any reason to make Meteor nonreflectable, it's good that the game is complex and you have to think on the battle field instead of zerging everything down. Builds that will suffer the most from this change are ones with little mobility, because they are already stuck trying to mitigate more incoming damage, and they are the builds that rely on block, which was already severely nerfed.

    I can still play a magicka sorcerer which will have no issue with this change, and which will actually benefit from this change. I've been using storm atronach more than meteor until now. Now that I won't have to worry about it being reflected back to me, there isn't much of a reason NOT to slot it. It will be that awesome of an ultimate now. Tons of damage, tons of CC, and it will either snare the victim or it will restore me some ultimate back depending on how many people I hit with it. Or I can play a nightblade, I do have a v16 character of each class. But I would like magicka DK and magicka templar to be great options for PvP too - effective and fun to play, with plenty of counters available to various attacks in the game, just like sorcerers and nightblades (shadow image, cloak + dodging if stamina) already do.

    I also don't know why people aren't commenting more on the removal of the double reflect. It is such a fun mechanic that was bringing another layer to combat.
    Edited by RoamingRiverElk on February 27, 2016 4:13PM
    Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar
  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Lucky28 wrote: »
    Lucky28 wrote: »
    the way i see it. meteor was made un-reflectable because they made it so projectiles can only be reflected once. thus if they kept it as being reflectable it would be kinda cheap that someone could use a base ability to negate your ultimate while you have no way of countering it.

    at any rate it's not that big of a deal. block it then use shuffle to get rid of the snare.

    @RoamingRiverElk if people CC you and force you to take the brunt of their ult with no mitigation. you simply got outplayed. when i use ice comet i streak though the target(s) and stun them to prevent reflect in the current live. CC is the counter to reflect not the other way around.

    There isn't really anything to outplay when there's no proper counter to it - there used to be though. Magicka sorcs still have a counter, but that doesn't exactly help DKs and templars.

    It can be blocked and you can use Shuffle to get rid of the snare. i think you're making a bigger deal of this then it needs to be.

    Everyone's experiences vary of course. My opinion is based on a large number of hours playing magicka DK and magicka sorcerer in small outnumbered groups, and also stamina DK to an extent. I just know that magicka DKs will be in huge trouble with this change, and I can't imagine why templars wouldn't be too. You can take some of the edge off with harness magicka, but it's not a huge shield, and magicka DKs and templars who want to be more than glass cannons need to spec into max health (and max stamina), which directly impacts the size of harness magicka. Nor will they likely invest 100 CP in making Harness Magicka the maximum strength it could be. I doubt many magicka DKs will even have space on their bars for the skill because they already need to slot igneous shield for stamina return and 25% increased healing. Igneous Shield strength itself is laughable, however. And then there's the stamina DKs, who will never be slotting Harness Magicka.

    The other layer of this issue is whether we want to have a game where there are more, or less, counters to different attacks. I prefer a more complex game where you have a variety of options for doing builds and where you do have the option to invest into counters, and which also do not gimp your build totally for it. The magicka sorcerer build with sword and shield will die due to no double reflect and meteor not being reflectable. But that was a build I appreciated, even though I didn't play that myself. I will mourn the loss of the double reflect as a DK even when it could be used against me to boost Meteor to do even more damage to me if I was attacked with it and it was reflected twice before hitting me. At least someone wasn't just continuously spamming one huge damage attack skill on me.

    Reflect was a counter to an extremely powerful ultimate that does not have many counters. Meteor really does need to be able to be dodged with dodge roll, if it is no longer reflectable. Otherwise, this is simply another step on the road to the game sliding towards who attacks first and has more damage, and who have more people on their side. I don't believe there is any reason to make Meteor nonreflectable, it's good that the game is complex and you have to think on the battle field instead of zerging everything down. Builds that will suffer the most from this change are ones with little mobility, because they are already stuck trying to mitigate more incoming damage, and they are the builds that rely on block, which was already severely nerfed.

    I can still play a magicka sorcerer which will have no issue with this change, and which will actually benefit from this change. I've been using storm atronach more than meteor until now. Now that I won't have to worry about it being reflected back to me, there isn't much of a reason NOT to slot it. It will be that awesome of an ultimate now. Tons of damage, tons of CC, and it will either snare the victim or it will restore me some ultimate back depending on how many people I hit with it. Or I can play a nightblade, I do have a v16 character of each class. But I would like magicka DK and magicka templar to be great options for PvP too - effective and fun to play, with plenty of counters available to various attacks in the game, just like sorcerers and nightblades (shadow image, cloak + dodging if stamina) already do.

    I also don't know why people aren't commenting more on the removal of the double reflect. It is such a fun mechanic that was bringing another layer to combat.

    Agreed.

    The double reflect removal is ***
    Meteor non reflectable is ***.

    Every Tom, ***, and Harry is gonna run meteor in PvP now -- its too good not to.
  • Forestd16b14_ESO
    Forestd16b14_ESO
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    Didgerion wrote: »
    Here are the reasons it is not be reflectable (as per my understanding)

    1. It is a meteor - even if it is reflectable it should be reflected to the sky.
    2. This ability is extremely loud, shiny and very slow - it is too easy to reflect it and too punishable for the caster to end up eating his own ultimate.
    3. You'd say l2p and choose your target - I say l2p and counter the meteor - you have ton of time to buff you up to put snare immunity to block and to get out of meteor area

    The only con argument is:
    How dare they take away the the fun part(meteor reflect) from the DKs now!... when they are just back in business!!
    And all other l2p arguments are brought to the forums just to disguise this real con (selfish) part that all DKs are really concerned with.

    And again....

    EVERY ONE COULD REFLECT IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just slot a sword and shield and use defensive poster but no that would have been to hard for players cause this game is all about DPS. As for the people who need to "L2P" as your putting are the meteor caster cause they can't wait the 4 seconds for the wings to come down to cast there "I win" ultimate.

    There was no reason for this change but ZOS keeps saying that it's to put it on par with the other ultimates either though it was already plenty powerful. ZOS is just cradling the cry baby players........ again
    "A sword wields no strength unless the hand that holds it has courage."
    "It's the warrior not the weapon that decides the battle ."
    #StopOneTamriel
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