VMSA set drop rate

Xjcon · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

This thread escalated quick. I have to ask one question tho. WHY does one type of player want to hold the other type of player back?

Has anyone ever got a straight answer as to why ZoS wants the gear grind to be so long? Most people wan't their build so they can begin playing how they want right?

@Xjcon I am not trying to hold anyone back, in fact quite the opposite. Your question relies on the assumption that you cannot play the way you want without perfect gear. If you want perfect gear and are working towards getting it, then technically you are "playing the way you want". Everyone has choices and choices have consequences, so yes you can play the way you want, it just may not be as easy as other play styles.

gear =/= build.

Build includes: gear + skills

At any point you can have any combination of gear+skills it just may not be viable (and they never said it would be). You can just choose to take on ESO as you wish even if that makes your experience artificially more difficult due to your own choices.

I think you need a bit or perspective. I have all BIS gear. I don't need to grind for gear but the eso gear grind is horendous. RNG allows some Lucky players to play their game while the rest of the unlucky players are stuck with the grind.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Again, I am not suggesting that you make this stuff easy. I am not saying that I should have perfect traits after running a dungeon 5 times. What I am saying is that there should be a better way than pure unforgiving RNG to get some of the BIS gear that, like it or not, is going to be required to be on leaderboards once they become relevant again. We need a system that allows for those able to complete a certain level of content to have a path to get the gear they want. It should not be easy, but it should be obtainable.

Your Lawyer example actually makes my argument. If you want to become a lawyer, there is a clear path to get there. You sit the LSAT and based on your score, you apply to various law schools. If your score is good enough, you are selected and you attend school for three years. If your grades are good enough to graduate, you sit the bar exam in your state. If you achieve a passing grade, you become a lawyer. Nothing could be clearer. You want something valuable and, this is how you achieve it. That certainly might be easier for some than others, but the path is clear for everyone.

Now if they told my graduating class that only 10% of us based on a random number generator are eligible to sit the bar, that would be unfair. Yes everyone had the same chance, but a bunch of people got screwed despite their hard work. To extend this analogy, that is the current state of this game. There is a select portion of the population that is capable of completing certain content, be it VWGT, VICP, or in the extreme case, VMA. You are then saying that a good portion of those people wont receive the rewards they seek, despite their best farming efforts. That is not fairness IMO. We obviously wont agree on this, but I stand by my position that ZOS needs to rethink how elite gear is distributed in this game.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Clearly the lawyer example was way too over your head. I will try to avoid analogies in the future as people only read what they want and miss the essence of the rest. Yes there is a clear path to becoming a lawyer, but is there a clear path to going to a specific law school or starting a specific practice? No, those are products of how well you did on your LSAT (determines the school you can get into) and the school determines what practice comes after (for the most part).

I clearly asked how you would feel if I wanted to go to your school (or even a better school for argument sake). However I wanted to do that, not by following the clear path but by making the path easier so I can go to Harvard (Best in slot gear). Maelstrom arena IS THE clear path, you 100% KNOW THE SETS WILL DROP..... You just don't know when. Just like I know I can take an LSAT as many times as I want, I just have no idea if the score I get will allow me to get into the school of my choice and if that school would allow me to pursue to practice I want. I can study and prepare but at the end, I don't know until I take the test.

If you make the test easier so I am capable of obtaining a Harvard grade score is that fair? and would I be a Harvard grade attorney? I don't think so. It is the process of getting to Harvard (hard as ***) and getting through Harvard (hard as ***) that will allow me to be a "Harvard" grade attorney. Now....this is purely an analogy. I went to Stanford and am usually not impressed with Harvard lawyers but you get my point.

Try as I might to get to Harvard... if I am not smart enough to get a Harvard grade LSAT score or cant make it through Harvard coursework then no I do not deserve a Harvard degree. Even if I want it really really bad and all my life I wanted to be a Harvard attorney. Sure I can be an attorney from bullSh___ st. but I have to acknowledge that's what I am, and not a Harvard attorney. (The bar is irrelevant as it is pass/fail)

So to your point, there will be a certain population no matter how hard they try that will never be able to have a maelstrom weapon. That is OK. How do you propose having a system that is "Not easy" but not random? I think you would be very hard pressed to come up with any system. A token system is easy, a credit system is easy and arguably more of a grind (do x until I have enough y then I will go buy the gear) don't we have enough of that farming already? What is your recommendation for a system that is not "Easy"?

Very hard question....one if ZOS had a good answer to, I am sure would of implemented it instead of the current system.If monster helm vendor had been in the game since launch do you really think player activity would be higher overall? It was implementation of that vendor that has made me speak out against instant gratification gaming and I mainly PVP. Every single MMO has had a rng component to loot, how come ESO needs to be different? You say this is your first MMO, so MMOs are supposed to change because you think they are hard? Who is elitist in this thread again?

@Oreyn_Bearclaw I appreciate your participation, and your point of view. Just very strongly disagree and I will speak out as many times as necessary against individuals asking for these changes. I want o appeal to you on a personal level and the community as a whole to not engage is this kind of destructive thinking and entitlement.

Xjcon · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Again, I am not suggesting that you make this stuff easy. I am not saying that I should have perfect traits after running a dungeon 5 times. What I am saying is that there should be a better way than pure unforgiving RNG to get some of the BIS gear that, like it or not, is going to be required to be on leaderboards once they become relevant again. We need a system that allows for those able to complete a certain level of content to have a path to get the gear they want. It should not be easy, but it should be obtainable.

Your Lawyer example actually makes my argument. If you want to become a lawyer, there is a clear path to get there. You sit the LSAT and based on your score, you apply to various law schools. If your score is good enough, you are selected and you attend school for three years. If your grades are good enough to graduate, you sit the bar exam in your state. If you achieve a passing grade, you become a lawyer. Nothing could be clearer. You want something valuable and, this is how you achieve it. That certainly might be easier for some than others, but the path is clear for everyone.

Now if they told my graduating class that only 10% of us based on a random number generator are eligible to sit the bar, that would be unfair. Yes everyone had the same chance, but a bunch of people got screwed despite their hard work. To extend this analogy, that is the current state of this game. There is a select portion of the population that is capable of completing certain content, be it VWGT, VICP, or in the extreme case, VMA. You are then saying that a good portion of those people wont receive the rewards they seek, despite their best farming efforts. That is not fairness IMO. We obviously wont agree on this, but I stand by my position that ZOS needs to rethink how elite gear is distributed in this game.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Clearly the lawyer example was way too over your head. I will try to avoid analogies in the future as people only read what they want and miss the essence of the rest. Yes there is a clear path to becoming a lawyer, but is there a clear path to going to a specific law school or starting a specific practice? No, those are products of how well you did on your LSAT (determines the school you can get into) and the school determines what practice comes after (for the most part).

I clearly asked how you would feel if I wanted to go to your school (or even a better school for argument sake). However I wanted to do that, not by following the clear path but by making the path easier so I can go to Harvard (Best in slot gear). Maelstrom arena IS THE clear path, you 100% KNOW THE SETS WILL DROP..... You just don't know when. Just like I know I can take an LSAT as many times as I want, I just have no idea if the score I get will allow me to get into the school of my choice and if that school would allow me to pursue to practice I want. I can study and prepare but at the end, I don't know until I take the test.

If you make the test easier so I am capable of obtaining a Harvard grade score is that fair? and would I be a Harvard grade attorney? I don't think so. It is the process of getting to Harvard (hard as ***) and getting through Harvard (hard as ***) that will allow me to be a "Harvard" grade attorney. Now....this is purely an analogy. I went to Stanford and am usually not impressed with Harvard lawyers but you get my point.

Try as I might to get to Harvard... if I am not smart enough to get a Harvard grade LSAT score or cant make it through Harvard coursework then no I do not deserve a Harvard degree. Even if I want it really really bad and all my life I wanted to be a Harvard attorney. Sure I can be an attorney from bullSh___ st. but I have to acknowledge that's what I am, and not a Harvard attorney. (The bar is irrelevant as it is pass/fail)

So to your point, there will be a certain population no matter how hard they try that will never be able to have a maelstrom weapon. That is OK. How do you propose having a system that is "Not easy" but not random? I think you would be very hard pressed to come up with any system. A token system is easy, a credit system is easy and arguably more of a grind (do x until I have enough y then I will go buy the gear) don't we have enough of that farming already? What is your recommendation for a system that is not "Easy"?

Very hard question....one if ZOS had a good answer to, I am sure would of implemented it instead of the current system.If monster helm vendor had been in the game since launch do you really think player activity would be higher overall? It was implementation of that vendor that has made me speak out against instant gratification gaming and I mainly PVP. Every single MMO has had a rng component to loot, how come ESO needs to be different? You say this is your first MMO, so MMOs are supposed to change because you think they are hard? Who is elitist in this thread again?

@Oreyn_Bearclaw I appreciate your participation, and your point of view. Just very strongly disagree and I will speak out as many times as necessary against individuals asking for these changes. I want o appeal to you on a personal level and the community as a whole to not engage is this kind of destructive thinking and entitlement.

Are you seriously comparing playing a video game to going to law school? Is that what it has come to? This is entertainment. This isn't a career. Getting gear is part of the fun, but if it's not fun to obtain the gear what's the point? I've also noted you brought up the point that people will leave if they get the gear to fast....wait what? I am after the gear so I can play more at max potential. Not playing to grind for months only to have to grind for a few months after the next DLC comes out rendering my new gear obselete.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Clearly the lawyer example was way too over your head.

Now you are just taking cheap shots at my intelligence.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I clearly asked how you would feel if I wanted to go to your school (or even a better school for argument sake). However I wanted to do that, not by following the clear path but by making the path easier so I can go to Harvard (Best in slot gear).

2 things. First, your analogy is flawed. Making it easier to go to law school would be akin to nerfing the content. In other words, you make VMA (the test) easier. What I am proposing is not that in the slightest. I am suggesting that we homogenize the length of the grind to some degree. To extend the metaphor, assuming you get passing grades, it takes three years to get through school. It does not, however, take 1 day for some students and 10 years for another. That is RNG.

Second, as to how I feel about you going to law school, if you can get the grades, then go for it. You can follow the same path the rest of us did. I wouldn't support making the test easier. I will point out that there is a logic section on the LSAT. The evidence is mounting that this might be way outside of your wheelhouse.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

So to your point, there will be a certain population no matter how hard they try that will never be able to have a maelstrom weapon. That is OK.

I agree but you are missing the point. The vast majority of the player base is never going to get this stuff because the content itself is too hard. That I have absolutely no problem with and it has nothing to do with RNG. If I was a carebear or simply entitled, I would be calling for a nerf of the underlying content, but that is not the case. Good day. I have no more energy for this thread.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

@Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Those sets are also obsolete given the introduction of IC and wrothgar sets (both of which have a more difficult grind). In fact the only ones I see going after the v14 stuff are the ones who "cant be bothered to farm" the IC and worthgar sets. (tanks maybe an exception with the footman, but prariah is a better set no?)

Lol @ Pariah set.
Yeah those sets are so obsolete that any random footman ring Im getting (i still do dsa for fun) sells instantly. I even sold golden one for ~200k.

Baconlad I respect you think the grind is intense. I am telling you it is NOT.

I got it already, you're the lucky one who got all the good stuff from vMA instantly. But these forums and my guildies tell me that what you're saying is not truth. There are people with leaderboard scores who still cant get the weapons they need.
So the grind is real. Sorry, its just facts. Your luck vs a lot of people who werent that lucky.

By trying to make the gear easier to get in the traits you want, you are making the game easier and "dumbing it down". This is an instant gratification model that is not sustainable.

"No fun allowed" system is much less sustainable. And this is not related to content difficulty so I dont see how being able to reliably farm the items would "dumb down" the game.
vMA is one of the hardest dungeons in the game, there should be something to encourage people so they have the motivation to beat it. It should be really hard, but also very rewarding. This would be fair.
You're telling us that grindyness is very good for the game... I can tell you that these rng elements actually make people so "happy" they have no motivation to continue vMA (or Ic dungeons) when they get their items or give up on that. Why even bother if you're just wasting time and gold. Hard modes must be rewarding.

You are just going to give incentives those players to complete the content more than they already do by giving them a means to farm gold while farming weps so guys like you don't have to complete the content. This gold can be used to buy additional mats, or Cyrodill vendor gear further increasing player disparity. You want to make guys like me (who can do the arena) rich.

Nice try, but BoP crap actually crippled ESO economy much more than anything else. There's no market for anything except crafting mats. Before IC release, good players could make some money on selling BoE trial sets (like that stam pvp set from Sanctum, cant remember the name or Healer/Footman stuff). These days IC ganking or mindless resource farm is more profitable than doing the hardest content in game, and this is absolutely horrible for the game. But well... There's a lot of threads about this already.
And btw, you look really silly with your "look! I finished vMA! Im so cool". I also do vMA, and I dont even consider it "hard", I played much harder games. I beat it on my second try (first try was too late and I was too tired to continue so I quit at stage 8)
Its more cheesy and buggy than challenging once you know the mechanics. Many people give up on it or dont bother simply because there's not much incentive to beat it, regular rewards are crappy, and not everyone can or want to farm it for months.
To be clear - there's nothing wrong with farming, but you should be able to get your items in reasonable time (like golden vr16 crafted sets, willpower stuff etc). And effort should be rewarded. This is a game so it shouldnt be too brutal and punishing to players and this doesnt mean dumbing it down. Challenging content? Hell yeah. Never-ending grinds for BoP items? Hell no. Simply because all players must be on equal footing. Its not like lottery, almost no one seriously expects to win a lottery. But everyone expects to get full salary for their job and not 1% to get $5k, 5% to get $1k and 94% to get $10.

@KoshkaMurka I have only encouraged people to complete the arena. Nothing I stated was in effort to show up those who have not. If you read my post I provide justification for why I think completing the arena is worth while.

No I am not very good at ESO. My first run took over 10 hours and I finished with a score below < 200. It took weeks of not doing other things in order to complete it.

No I do not have everything out of the arena, but I have completed sets in non perfect traits after running the arena several times trying to improve my score.

Maybe I was in error saying it was not a grind, maybe what I was trying to say is that others are on more difficult if not longer grinds then the ones you guys are complaining about. You trying to make me out to be an elitist is unfair just because I have grinded harder than you. Why should I be punished for working hard to get gear? Why am I an elitist just because I chose to not do pvp, dungeons, trials, farm, quest, level alts or any number of things you can do in ESO so I could complete the arena? and why cant you do the same if that is what it requires?

Some people will be able to complete content with ease, others will have to put in considerably more effort to complete the same content. The difference in choosing to put in the effort should decide who receives the reward. If you do not agree with that, then you are the problem.

I only have a Templar, so was I salty when I was watching NB's with Sorc alts trounce the arena in the first week and then run around cyrodil with their master weapons? Hell yes I was.....so I buckled down and got the arena done, whatever it took. Why does that make me an elitist? I thought working hard was the exact opposite......

Well, I guess everyone knows that doing vMA takes time and effort. But in my opinion (and not only in mine), effort/reward ratio for this dungeon is very discouraging, especially for average player. vMA is not popular, even weeklies for some classes only have 60-80 entries, despite the fact that a simple clear would guarantee a random golden weapon. And most of players who farm it, dont do that for fun, just for weapons.
Also, I'm absolutely against luck-based systems. Its not a lottery, where you just buy a ticket and that's it. An with all this effort there's a huge chance of not getting items you want after 100 runs while someone else might get it on their first attempt. Its not a matter of opinion, its just math.
Why you were called "elitist"? Perhaps because the amount of grind in vMA is not realistic for most of ESO players; and while I do not support any "instant gratification" stuff you mentioned, sitting there for 10 hours every day and farming is not something everyone can afford. And what surprises me the most, you defend such a system despite not being able to get your monster helmet and having to negect more fun activities so you can farm vMA. What's so good about it, really? Repeating boring chore for hours so maybe you can get a good weapon? Come on, this is a game, its supposed to be fun. And making in-game achievements meaningful and challenging is possible without much grind. Grindy =/= challenging or hard. Grindy just means boring and mind-numbing, and again, mathematically there's a chance that you will get the "perfect" weapon next month. Or maybe next year. And considering that computer rng is never truly random, there's also a chance that your char will never get that particular item despite all efforts. Imo, its not that hard to see what's wrong with such system. It doesnt support being competitive (score and time doesnt matter in terms of loot), its just a harsh lottery where you have to put a lot of time to get some random result.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

So to your point, there will be a certain population no matter how hard they try that will never be able to have a maelstrom weapon. That is OK.

No its not. Absolutely not.

Vaoh · February 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw @Seido_Tensei_
Thank you for this guys. Was gonna wait until Dark Brotherhood but with this strategy I might as well get some V1s to V16. Didn't know it was so easy!

code65536 · February 2016

People still run vDSA, Sanctum, AA, and HRC. vDSA competition has been heating up, and last week, on NA/PC, the lowest score to survive the vDSA weekly was 20.8K. But people aren't running it for the gear. They're running it because it's fun. If the only reason someone runs content or plays the game is for the gear grind, then there is something seriously wrong with that content.

@Seido_Tensei_ your argument is flawed; BiS gear isn't the end goal--it is a means by which people reach that end goal. You seem to think people stop playing when they get the gear they want; no, people start to play the stuff they want once they have the gear that they want.

Yes, there are some players who get bored and quit once they have the gear that they like. But there are many, many more (and I know some) who quit out of frustration over the RNG grind.

willymchilybily · February 2016

Baconlad wrote: »

so I have been grinding in VMSA for specifically the permafrost rings....and let me tell you, after running it roughly 15 times (not to completion mind you ;P ) I stopped and did some basic math, and even though my numbers are no where near perfect (taking into account all the different traits, sets, set pieces) I have come to the conclusion that I will NEVER get my permafrost rings...[snip]

i would like to see the "imperial city" treatment done to VMSA, [snip]

I read this and wanted to say 1stly snap.

I dont and have Never ever before complained about rng or loot on these forums. and trust me i have plenty of cause between my WGT loot compared to the guildies i tank for and my 20-25% maelstrom weapon drop rate from round 9 chests

I have completed maelstrom a reasonable amount and have most of the rings.... except for permafrost

glory x2
hunt x2,
parabelum x3 (iirc)
elemental suc. x4
winterborne x1
and permafrost x 0

and more necklaces than i can use across all my characters.

and to rub salt into the wounds my friend get his second permafrost ring on his 4th vMA completion. I actually made him screen shot it i didnt believe him! i thought he had to be trolling.

I have every maelstrom weapon but the daggers but not 1 permafrost ring. I consider that a sign that something within your system is broken. Please, i humbly beg as a gamer at the end of his tether, change the system. 6 dropped sets + RNG +BOP is not working.

Edit: (oh and only drops from final and penultimate chests...was it designed by a sadist? )

Cuyler · February 2016

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it! That's how it used to be!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping there is a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus. Worst itemization decision to date.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

I beat Vma last night. 9 levels 7 belts of the hunt. Cool rng story bro.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Wild_squirtle · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

I swore I was done, but I am back...

For me personally, I have no problem gating BiS gear behind a skill barrier of some sort. Again, maybe that's selfish because with a little practice, I was able to clear this place. The problem as many people have stated over and over is with the way the RNG works. You can have all the skill in the world, but the RNG is so bad that it could take months of SOLO game time to get the weapons you are after. I don't play an MMO to play alone, but that is what it feels like lately. It is depressing AF!!!

What I want is for a way to work towards a goal with some end in sight. I dont want it to be quick and easy, but I want there to be a path to get there. Pure RNG does not accomplish this. If they are dead set on Pure RNG, perhaps they need to thin out the loot tables by a lot. 90% of the Maelstrom weapon drops are TRASH. They are either weapons that likely wont be used or they are good weapons but in terrible traits. A defending Destro staff is Decon material. It has no use for anything. If that makes me a carebear or entitled, then so be it.

code65536 · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

LOL. Maybe you should read the posts here first before putting your foot in your mouth? The people complaining are mostly people who can complete VMA but who have been screwed by RNG. I know people who have gotten Flawless Conqueror but still have not gotten the weapon that they want. So the fact that they haven't gotten the weapons after countless runs mean that they are somehow less skilled?

willymchilybily · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

in theory... until you discover people actually pay others to complete maelstrom for them.. Sorcs on PS4 score board rank 100 went from a score of 300(ish) for last place, to 22,000 (iirc) to 28,000 to 150,000 to 330,000 in the past 4-5 weeks.

i hope im completely wrong (though i know it has happened) and I hope its only the handful i know about. But that's what you risk with BiS gear locked behind solo content. if it only takes one person to complete it then its not hard for 1 person to do it for you. and 200k to 500k gold is not a bad incentive.

best to have BiS come from group content, and for solo content to be another means to an end or give alternative sets.

Cuyler · February 2016

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

You've totally missed the point. It has nothing to do with player skill. I could argue that vMOL will be significantly harder than vMA when released. We don't know yet until it hits live.

The point is, MOST don't enjoy vMA and consider it to be a chore because it's a solo hermit style grind as mentioned. It seems that you just enjoy playing with yourself, so it's understandable you would disagree.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Cuyler wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

You've totally missed the point. It has nothing to do with player skill. I could argue that vMOL will be significantly harder than vMA when released. We don't know yet until it hits live.

The point is, MOST don't enjoy vMA and consider it to be a chore because it's a solo hermit style grind as mentioned. It seems that you just enjoy playing with yourself, so it's understandable you would disagree.

@Cuyler I think you have missed the point. Regardless of whether or not you believe 'most' people enjoy the content, it has been put in the game. You can argue it should of been group content, but it is not. There were clearly a number of players asking for solo content or it would not of been introduced. Let me clear, I was not one of them. I had no aspirations for the arena nor was I excited about leader board competition. I completed the arena because I realized the weapons were necessary for me to complete my stamplar vision.

While doing the arena, I began to enjoy it and felt great success when I was finally able to complete it, even though I was rewarded with a pera bellum (sp?) choker instead of a 2H. My leader board reward that week was a succession necklace. That was my reward after 13 hours.....and all I wanted was the weapons. So I practiced more and completed the arena again and again until I got what I needed.

Arguably at this point, Bloodspawn is a way bigger chore and I do that with a group of friends. After the 100th some odd time it begins to get tedious..... Like I understand the pain, as does anyone who plays this game. No one is saying the grind isn't there, but to make maelstrom gear easier to get because it is "solo" is BS.

What about all those who don't have a group to run vDSA or don't like to group? Should they have a means of obtaining that gear because they don't like to group? By all means provide an alternative means to farm footman/healer. (Seriously if there are other methods send me a PM)

What about all those who don't have a group large enough for 12-man trials? Point is there is lot's of gear locked behind hurdles that players may seem unfair. Same with skills. Just because something is viewed as a chore by you does not mean its a chore for others. Why minimize the accomplishment of those who completed the content by letting those who cant/wont complete it share in the reward? You should not be able to obtain gear just for trying or completing it one time.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

People still run vDSA, Sanctum, AA, and HRC. vDSA competition has been heating up, and last week, on NA/PC, the lowest score to survive the vDSA weekly was 20.8K. But people aren't running it for the gear. They're running it because it's fun. If the only reason someone runs content or plays the game is for the gear grind, then there is something seriously wrong with that content.

@Seido_Tensei_ your argument is flawed; BiS gear isn't the end goal--it is a means by which people reach that end goal. You seem to think people stop playing when they get the gear they want; no, people start to play the stuff they want once they have the gear that they want.

Yes, there are some players who get bored and quit once they have the gear that they like. But there are many, many more (and I know some) who quit out of frustration over the RNG grind.

@code65536 your argument is much more flawed than mine. You are working on the assumption that you cannot play the way you want without BiS gear. That is a fallacy that should not be endorsed.

You also assume the ones who quit out of frustration is greater than those that would greatly reduce their activity in the game after obtaining gear. I would argue that is not the case, and in fact they may be one and the same.

Those who get tired of the game just because they cant get their perfect set are the exact type to leave once their set is obtained. Or else why would they care enough to leave? There are a lot of things to do in ESO, and with a group none of it requires BiS gear.

Another note....I don't know a single regular player that runs any of the trial content you listed. In my observation there are guilds / dedicated teams that compete in that content and not casual groups. People running for competition is nothing new. Maelstrom scores continue to increase.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

Wild_squirtle wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

It's the BOP meta. BOP RNG is crushing the will to play for many players in this game. Albeit slowly BUT surely they will leave! The only things that should be BOP at this time are maelstrom weapons and monster sets and in the next patch extend that to v16 master weapons. That's it!

This is an MMO. Solo content should not have BiS gear gated behind it forcing masses of dedicated group minded players into days and days of hermit style solo grinding. I'm hoping a resurgence of v16 Master Weapons (vDSA is actually fun because friends) as new BiS and I can't wait for the Failstrom Arena meta to fade into the mundus.
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @Wrobel

^THIS^

Ehh I disagree. Probably cause I can do the content but you want BiS gear earn it by yourself. Its not BiGS gear(best in group slot gear. I made that up, pretty proud) the gear you wear is a product of your skill level. Vmsa weps show you are able to adapt to mechanics and semi challenging content. Again mabey cause i can do it my opinon is swayed but hey who knows. Im probably just a di*k.

in theory... until you discover people actually pay others to complete maelstrom for them.. Sorcs on PS4 score board rank 100 went from a score of 300(ish) for last place, to 22,000 (iirc) to 28,000 to 150,000 to 330,000 in the past 4-5 weeks.

i hope im completely wrong (though i know it has happened) and I hope its only the handful i know about. But that's what you risk with BiS gear locked behind solo content. if it only takes one person to complete it then its not hard for 1 person to do it for you. and 200k to 500k gold is not a bad incentive.

best to have BiS come from group content, and for solo content to be another means to an end or give alternative sets.

Paying people for clears happens. I have been offered gold in zone by people wanting me to clear for them, and I have heard of people buying clears from pretty reliable sources. I think this is further compounded by the fact that people are clearing multiple times on the same class on the same account.

If people want I get a leaderboard spot with each class, more power to them, but I am not sure it's fair that a good player can clear it on 3 sorcs in a week. Once DSA weeklys get scaled, I promise you will see the same group on the leaderboards 3-4 times. I hope this gets addressed somehow.

Cuyler · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Point is there is lot's of gear locked behind hurdles that players may seem unfair. Same with skills. Just because something is viewed as a chore by you does not mean its a chore for others. Why minimize the accomplishment of those who completed the content by letting those who cant/wont complete it share in the reward? You should not be able to obtain gear just for trying or completing it one time.

Holding people back from attaining gear because of special feelzies for completing vMA is just selfish. BOP is $#!t for anything except maelstrom weapons, master weapons and monster sets. You have your accomplishment to flaunt, no one can take that away from you. The various dropped set rewards however, should be BOE.

Let me clarify seeming as I didn't explain myself well before. I don't want to take BiS opportunities from solo players, what I feel should of occurred is these BiS weapons be available by both group and solo play (MMO after all). Having BiS available only by solo gameplay goes against the grain and spirit of MMO gameplay.

Finally, numbers don't lie. All one needs to do is look at the leaderboards to see how much people "enjoy" vMA.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Point is there is lot's of gear locked behind hurdles that players may seem unfair. Same with skills. Just because something is viewed as a chore by you does not mean its a chore for others. Why minimize the accomplishment of those who completed the content by letting those who cant/wont complete it share in the reward? You should not be able to obtain gear just for trying or completing it one time.

Cuyler wrote: »

Holding people back from attaining gear because of special feelzies for completing vMA is just selfish. BOP is $#!t for anything except maelstrom weapons, master weapons and monster sets. You have your accomplishment to flaunt, no one can take that away from you. The various dropped set rewards however, should be BOE.

Let me clarify seeming as I didn't explain myself well before. I don't want to take BiS opportunities from solo players, what I feel should of occurred is these BiS weapons be available by both group and solo play (MMO after all). Having BiS available only by solo gameplay goes against the grain and spirit of MMO gameplay.

@Cuyler Templar and DK leaderboards have been growing every week. Top 10 NBs and Scorcs continue to go up and down, Plenty of maelstrom activity. Not saying its going to be as competitive as other leader boards but yet I think people will continue to do runs even after TG and DB. Especially if there is incentive to do so.

You say loot should be accessible through group AND solo play. Are you saying that people should have a way of obtaining the new trial armor from TG without completing it? You cannot possible think that makes sense?

You realize if everything was BoE that this game would essentially be P2W (if its not already). Gold farmers are a real thing and if people can use gold to get the most exclusive items it will only encourage the P2W mentality even more. You will literally be able to buy all of your gear. No requirement to do any content to obtain the best gear, why would you think that is a good thing?

Why should someone who has been on the game a few days have access to the same gear as someone who has played for over a year, just because the new player can buy some gold from a farmer or has an established friend willing to buy it.

Everything you guys are asking for only helps a small group of players that want BiS gear without having to "work" for it and the few that are truly screwed by rng. Otherwise players that want BiS are willing to grind, and even more others that don't care are playing their own way as it is without worrying about the arena.

I am waiting for someone (anyone) to propose a system that is fair balanced, not P2W and is not a system designed for instant gratification or making something "easier" to get. The best loot in the game should not be easy to obtain, any player that disagrees with that premise I would consider a "care bear". Making something BoE (or purchasable) is making it easier to get. You cannot argue that.

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, numbers don't lie. All one needs to do is look at the leader boards to see how much people "enjoy" vMA.

If you think that just because only a small portion of the user base participates in a piece of content, that it is justification for eliminating the exclusive rewards of doing said content then you are more selfish then you realize.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Paying people for clears happens. I have been offered gold in zone by people wanting me to clear for them, and I have heard of people buying clears from pretty reliable sources. I think this is further compounded by the fact that people are clearing multiple times on the same class on the same account.

If people want I get a leaderboard spot with each class, more power to them, but I am not sure it's fair that a good player can clear it on 3 sorcs in a week. Once DSA weeklys get scaled, I promise you will see the same group on the leaderboards 3-4 times. I hope this gets addressed somehow.

This is terrible, luckily it is against ZoS-ToS so indeed it is a ban-able offense. What do you think will happen if sets become BoE? Only the richest TESO players will have the best gear. Anyone who cannot afford to buy gold in the game or farm gold 24/7 will be at a disadvantage to those that can because everyone will have access to the BiS gear and top dollar will win.

Cuyler · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Point is there is lot's of gear locked behind hurdles that players may seem unfair. Same with skills. Just because something is viewed as a chore by you does not mean its a chore for others. Why minimize the accomplishment of those who completed the content by letting those who cant/wont complete it share in the reward? You should not be able to obtain gear just for trying or completing it one time.

Cuyler wrote: »

Holding people back from attaining gear because of special feelzies for completing vMA is just selfish. BOP is $#!t for anything except maelstrom weapons, master weapons and monster sets. You have your accomplishment to flaunt, no one can take that away from you. The various dropped set rewards however, should be BOE.

Let me clarify seeming as I didn't explain myself well before. I don't want to take BiS opportunities from solo players, what I feel should of occurred is these BiS weapons be available by both group and solo play (MMO after all). Having BiS available only by solo gameplay goes against the grain and spirit of MMO gameplay.

@Cuyler Templar and DK leaderboards have been growing every week. Top 10 NBs and Scorcs continue to go up and down, Plenty of maelstrom activity. Not saying its going to be as competitive as other leader boards but yet I think people will continue to do runs even after TG and DB. Especially if there is incentive to do so.

You say loot should be accessible through group AND solo play. Are you saying that people should have a way of obtaining the new trial armor from TG without completing it? You cannot possible think that makes sense?

You realize if everything was BoE that this game would essentially be P2W (if its not already). Gold farmers are a real thing and if people can use gold to get the most exclusive items it will only encourage the P2W mentality even more. You will literally be able to buy all of your gear. No requirement to do any content to obtain the best gear, why would you think that is a good thing?

Why should someone who has been on the game a few days have access to the same gear as someone who has played for over a year, just because the new player can buy some gold from a farmer or has an established friend willing to buy it.

Everything you guys are asking for only helps a small group of players that want BiS gear without having to "work" for it and the few that are truly screwed by rng. Otherwise players that want BiS are willing to grind, and even more others that don't care are playing their own way as it is without worrying about the arena.

I am waiting for someone (anyone) to propose a system that is fair balanced, not P2W and is not a system designed for instant gratification or making something "easier" to get. The best loot in the game should not be easy to obtain, any player that disagrees with that premise I would consider a "care bear". Making something BoE (or purchasable) is making it easier to get. You cannot argue that.

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, numbers don't lie. All one needs to do is look at the leader boards to see how much people "enjoy" vMA.

If you think that just because only a small portion of the user base participates in a piece of content, that it is justification for eliminating the exclusive rewards of doing said content then you are more selfish then you realize.

I'm not going to try and persuade you away from your Korean grind MMO ideology it's a fruitless effort. If you had been playing the game prior to the release of IC everything I said should make sense to you. I can only assume you weren't playing the game then.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Cuyler wrote: »

Finally, numbers don't lie. All one needs to do is look at the leader boards to see how much people "enjoy" vMA.

If you think that just because only a small portion of the user base participates in a piece of content, that it is justification for eliminating the exclusive rewards of doing said content then you are more selfish then you realize.[/quote]

I'm not going to try and persuade you away from your Korean grind MMO ideology it's a fruitless effort. If you had been playing the game prior to the release of IC everything I said should make sense to you. I can only assume you weren't playing the game then.[/quote]

Koreans make some damn good games.

I played ESO PC beta-3 months after launch and recently picked it up again when it released on console (1.6), was largely gone for 1.5. Not sure what that has to do with anything tho.

For the record, I am not trying to convince you , I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

Decado · February 2016

Wow this thread is absolutely insane,

Why would anyone argue to keep the current RNG? It's atrocious, it doesn't reward the skilled it rewards the lucky, and it is not guaranteed to drop for you atall, there is a chance you could NEVER get the weapon you want,

I agree with others when they said running VDSA was fun, I did it with friends and we had a great fine, running vMA is something I actually have to force myself to do, now that is just crazy when you think about it, hell I still enjoy running vWGT even though I don't have SPC yet I have fun because it's with friends, we mess about have a laugh and see how quickly we can destroy bosses, and is fun! Disappointing when you don't get your stuff but still fun, and I wouldn't stop running the content once I was geared,

I'm looking forward to seeing the trial leaderboards competitive again with the TG revamp I think it's going to bring new life into old content to see people pushing times and trying to get that little extra out of the group.

May have gone slightly off topic there so my apologies but still, give us a token system or something because vMA is shockingly expensive and boring to run, then again I imagine it will
End up in some vendor or other eventually so people can just buy them anyway

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Decado wrote: »

Wow this thread is absolutely insane,

Why would anyone argue to keep the current RNG? It's atrocious, it doesn't reward the skilled it rewards the lucky, and it is not guaranteed to drop for you atall, there is a chance you could NEVER get the weapon you want,

I agree with others when they said running VDSA was fun, I did it with friends and we had a great fine, running vMA is something I actually have to force myself to do, now that is just crazy when you think about it, hell I still enjoy running vWGT even though I don't have SPC yet I have fun because it's with friends, we mess about have a laugh and see how quickly we can destroy bosses, and is fun! Disappointing when you don't get your stuff but still fun, and I wouldn't stop running the content once I was geared,

I'm looking forward to seeing the trial leaderboards competitive again with the TG revamp I think it's going to bring new life into old content to see people pushing times and trying to get that little extra out of the group.

May have gone slightly off topic there so my apologies but still, give us a token system or something because vMA is shockingly expensive and boring to run, then again I imagine it will
End up in some vendor or other eventually so people can just buy them anyway

@Decado The skilled can complete content more quickly and more often giving more opportunities to spin the RNG wheel. I would argue rng rewards player skill more than any token system could. Yes someone could have a solid showing in the arena and not get a weapon, but if the player is that skilled, it should be not a big deal to do the arena again. We do this all the time for all manner of content.

On a tken system: There are always ways to game or cheese token systems leaving something else for ZOS to break and eventually fix. Rng is the most fair construct for loot available because it sucks for everyone and does not cater to a particular user group or play style except for those that can complete content consistently. Even then it can be an uphill battle. Better harder to get loot than easier, because once again this BiS gear is not required to complete anything in the game. If you feel you need gear before you can "play the way you want" then the gear is more likely the end goal anyway.

The only sympathy I have is for those who want to compete on the highest levels of the leader board, but have not been able to get their gear after the 100th try. I would argue most players don't have that aspiration (at least for real).

It is clear you do not like vMSA, but there are a lot of people that don't have to force themselves to complete the content. Many others find the content u listed more boring then vMSA or don't have a group to complete it with (I do vDSA weekly). What do you say to those players? They can make the same arguments u did about vDSA to justify vMSA (i.e. its fun, I compete against friends, test dps etc etc.)

I do agree that the gear will end up on a vendor. Monster helms were only the beginning.

Decado · February 2016

I will not pretend I do not dislike this content because I do, I had great fun on my first attempt, until I had to call it a night after wiping in final boss for hours, and again great fun on my second attempt when I downed it I really enjoy it, same with the third attempt when I got my first "decent" score, but longer and longer I went I lost all interest in it,

I know I'm not the best vMA player however I am skilled enough to compete it within an hour or two and I can safely say I can complete every time I go in, but it's just not fun for me anymore,

tbh I would love to get my weapons and never set foot in there ever again, however for anyone who actually enjoys this content that won't be the case they will get the weapon they wanted and it will probably help push there scores up even higher, and it that's what's fun for them I have no problems with that Atall, they would keep running competing with there friends and testing themselves etc.

But I dislike having to go back there for gear I may never actually get, I'm already considering not bothering anymore and just using a nirn staff,

When VDSA was still max level and the gear still highly valued I used to run it for fun as I had all the masters weapons and we used to try push our times, and at the end of it I didn't actually care what rewards I got, if I got healer or footman great I earnt myself some extra gold, if I got a master weapon fair enough, I kept running that content for a long time after getting all the gear because it's what I enjoyed doing,

I guess what I'm trying to say in a really rambling way(apologies I'm tired) is people will do the content they enjoy regardless of the rewards however for the people who only want to get the rewards and return to what they enjoy, for this case it could be either PvP or group PvE the RNG can be insanely frustrating and actually make people want to stop playing, do not get me wrong though I'm not saying nerf the content or allow them to get it other ways I'm saying there has to be a better system then keep running and praying it eventually drops.

My main goal atm is to get myself fully geared (all in missing is a divines Kena shoulder and vMA staff) so I can hit the new trials hard, that's my goal and atm vMA is an obstacle rather than an enjoyable piece of content.

And yes I think we are both in agreement about the vendor being just the start, there is no way something like that is going to stay just as it is

code65536 · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

ROTFL. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming consensus in this thread, among people who are capable of completing vMA, is that this RNG-grind that you support is the thing that's going to "poison" the game. You're the one tilting at windmills here.

Humatiel · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

ROTFL. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming consensus in this thread, among people who are capable of completing vMA, is that this RNG-grind that you support is the thing that's going to "poison" the game. You're the one tilting at windmills here.

From someone who completes vMA on a nearly daily basis I wouldn't necessarily mind having a token based system but I believe if we have one that it should lean toward the far end of what RNG would allow anyway. For instance 1 token for completing the arena and 100 tokens for picking out the staff with the trait that you want.

I believe the point of all this is simple, if its not worth working toward their is no point in doing it. YAY gear whatever, if you aren't looking for leaderboards I could (and have) run vMA in purple with precise. What do I care about gear when I know better then most that you can complete ANY content in the game with crafted gear anyway?

edit: Keeping a RNG based system shows a level of dedication and frankly outright faith that speaks highly of a gamers motivation and focus, by removing that you damn well better give us something that is hard enough I don't see a completion for a few months after it comes out so I can work toward it.