Destruent wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Yup

To add to @Hechicera comments whihc i may add he hit the nail on the head.

Look at any toon in this game that is VR16 with 250 Champion Points and using one of the common "DPS" sets....all the dungeons except Vet Imperial City Prison and Vet Whitegold Tower are a faceroll.

Try fighting Praxin in Vet Spindleclutch prior to the CS without a solid healer and tank and you would get smashed.

Try finishing Vet City of Ash back in the days before the CS

those dungeons were designed around each class role having an equal value of importance in order to complete them.

Today though, since they never went back and properly scaled and updated them, the CS and the power/gear creep allows folks to get so much DPS they simply bypass the mechanics or lessen the mechanics significantly.

Even Vet Maelstrom Arena, good luck completing it with a Tank or a primary healer and off dps toon. It specifically favors high DPS builds, ranged more then anything, but even high dps melee builds like Templar Sweeps have a far easier time.

The fact Vet MSA is a solo instance that is clearly designed and favors DPS based characters is troubling. Do we really want the future of this game to be DPS, DPS, DPS and nothing else? something has to give.

Tanks and even healers are in low demand in Stormhaven nowadays but DPS are everywhere.

I agree with every thing except vet maelstrom arena. Why do you need a healer or a tank for vet maelstrom? Healer and tanks are group roles. If your using a tank build for vet maelstrom who are you going to tank for? It does not make since for role that is needed for groups to work in a solo arena. Now you can be built like one of the roles but if your doing that content you cannot be doing your role since you have to kill. You do not even need high DPS. All you need is some average damage and some sustainment to keep you alive via healing, shields,movement speed, and defense buffs. Your basically all roles into one. You have heal yourself, either avoid or take the damge and do damage. I have friends that made a tankish build with some decent dps get though vet maelstrom.

@Darkonflare15 ,

you say:
"I agree with every thing except vet maelstrom arena. Why do you need a healer or a tank for vet maelstrom? Healer and tanks are group roles. If your using a tank build for vet maelstrom who are you going to tank for? It does not make since for role that is needed for groups to work in a solo arena".

I agree as such,

But if your main character is a tank, you either have to rebuild your tank into a more DPS build, get you some other gear, and/or roll a new character.
....and not everybody has the time to do that !!!
and yes, you can do already some by shifting Health attributes to Mag/Stam attributes for 3k gold.

What I miss here from ZOS is some empathy for players like this....
some love and attention for players that have just a tank as main character....

Love and attention resulting in the effort for some creativity to come with a helping hand.

Just as an example for such a creative solution:
Why not add to the Taunt that you get 20% les DPS for 20% flat damage mitigation.
That would enable a tank to evolve into a build that does vanilla more DPS...
and when he really has to tank, he can taunt to get in heavy duty mode.

and for sure... there will be many more solutions that ZOS can figure out....
if they care and have empathy for tank builds

Sry...but in vMSA you have to KILL things...why do expect to get through as a tank (=taking damage) or healer (=healing allies)...that doesn't make sense at all. people can also reach around 90% damage reduction with tank builds (without corrosive armor)...98% (or even 110% ) would be a bit too much, isn't it??

It all depends on your Tank build. On my tank i can easily switch between tank and DPS by changing gear, Skills and bufffood. This doesn't cost anything when you have the gear and you have more than enough skillpoints available ingame...

@Destruent ,
If such a taunt would exist, your base tank build can be made for more damage (like needed in vMA)
when you then do a group role tank job, your build becomes automatical more tanky because you will taunt all the time.

And yes, you switch "simply" your gear, not everybofy has a garderobe of gears.

That 20% mitigation will ofc be mutiplicative, so you get 80% of the damage you would otherwise have.
and you will need that
because when you change your base tank build into a more offensive role, you will not use sets with 2k Spell/Physical Resist set piece bonusses anymore.
Which also means that a tank gets a much wider choice of sets to choose from !!!

Agree 100% with OP. This game is too damage centric. Healer and tank builds in general are ignored through most of the game. To compete in most content you need an almost 100% damage build. Resource management is an after thought, and more damage equals more defense (heals/shields).

Heavy armor's weakness stands out to me as the biggest issue. It is useless in pvp and vMSA. Most group content is better off with a medium armor build tanking and doing high damage.

YES a tank and healer should be able complete vMSA and compete in PvP. Some think of those players as a group role only, but they are not. A tank and healer build should accept lower damage or completion time. But they are able to sustain incoming damage since they can't burst down targets quickly. They won't top the vMSA leader boards, but there still should be a place for those play styles.

The idea that healers and tanks are just group roles is the problem. The game has no place for defensive and sustaining builds. A defensive build is considered a stam DK with 30k stam, 4k weapon damage running spiked armor.

Look around and see how many successful vMSA or PvP builds use heavy armor. Look for successful "defensive" builds in pvp and vMSA. Notice how closely they relate to the current offensive builds.

vMSA and PvP suffer different issues, but most content (solo content in particular) is designed for pure dps focused builds and little diversion from that.

strikeback1247 wrote: »

Polysemy wrote: »

Alot of the sets you are linking are NOT DPS sets infact there is no dps sets other then Moondancer + Alkosh which may or may not be BIS (personally i dont think it will be put perhaps coupled with julianos/hundings/TBS it can be)

Alchemist, Vicious Death, Warrior's Fury (crap).... these are all pvp sets so when you call these "DPS" sets, I dont understand

Maybe your a group PVPr and thats why you call them DPS sets... if thats the case, ill say this. Fasalla's Guille is fricking insane for pvp

I'm pretty sure that he means that those sets are made for damage dealers and not tanks or healers. OP is trying to say that zos is mostly releasing sets that are made for damage dealing instead of tanking or healing. I personally like the way zeni is releasing sets. However, I do think that healers and (especially) tanks could use some cool new unique sets.

I realize that and quite frankly proved him wrong with my post. Healers and Tanks got good things this patch while dps got very lackluster sets that have 5 piece's that may not (and in my opinion as of now) be BIS... Tava's Favor is a GODSEND and reintdoduced worm and twilights remedy is amazing for healer and tank roles

Edit : With 1 potion cooldown glyph for example and my tank build my nightblade will get 9.41 ultimate per second

Hechicera wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

As a healer you get Twilight Remedy to boost the DPS of your group (believe it or not that's one of the healers jobs) in addition to Spell Power Cure. Tanks get a 4% damage reduction against bosses in a 3-piece set. That in itself is viable and the Lunar 5-piece isn't too bad either. For PvP tanks they get Fasalla's Guile. I understand where you're coming from...power creep is bad, but it's hardly fair to say tanks and healers get nothing.

@RinaldoGandolphi some good points.

And for the poster I quoted. You realize you are reinforcing OP's point? Healer's job isn't to .. umm heal? but to buff specifically dps?

Some games have had pure healers. Some buffing healers. Some buffing dpsers. Sometimes buff classes, in the past, in other games, who were or were not healers were expected to buff many other things. Like enchanters in EQ1 that buffed regen and couldn't heal for one example.

Not only are healers and tanks behind the gear power curve, but for a game with the lineage of Elder Scrolls (granted single player) heritage, it is narrowing viable build diversity further and further in opposition to statements in the last dev twitch talk. Of course, that issue is not just gear but no softcaps. Because without softcaps, the only strong differentiation is dps.

very true, hence why I have not pvped since I finished ic sewers on all 3 of my characters (and by finished I mean 90% of it since the other 10% means a group actually having balls and taking on fights like molag bal for his costume or running into other alliance areas for their bosses/shards or to kill players. all the stuff no one wanted to do so I quit doing it.

AzuraKin wrote: »

Polysemy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that he means that those sets are made for damage dealers and not tanks or healers. OP is trying to say that zos is mostly releasing sets that are made for damage dealing instead of tanking or healing. I personally like the way zeni is releasing sets. However, I do think that healers and (especially) tanks could use some cool new unique sets.

I realize that and quite frankly proved him wrong with my post. Healers and Tanks got good things this patch while dps got very lackluster sets that have 5 piece's that may not (and in my opinion as of now) be BIS... Tava's Favor is a GODSEND and reintdoduced worm and twilights remedy is amazing for healer and tank roles

Edit : With 1 potion cooldown glyph for example and my tank build my nightblade will get 9.41 ultimate per second... that means Warhorns on cooldown, Magma shells every 26 seconds (DK Ulti is roughly the same but not as good), Barriers galore, whatever you want! )

explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate per second? potion 12 ultimate every 45s-cooldown, block hit/light attack/heal damage 3 ult per 1.5s (2 per second), synergy 2 ult every x seconds whatever cooldown is on synergizing, so please explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate a second? just incase someone thinking you can stack from block, light attack, healing you cannot. otherwise my Templar would be dropping novas like they were raindrops in a heavy downpour.

Blood Spawn 15u/6s = 2.5 u/s
Tava 9u/3s = 3 u/s
Major Heroism 6u/3s = 2u/s
Minor Heroism 6u/9s = 0.66u/s
Catalyst Passive 20u/40s = 0.5u/s
Transfer Passive 2u/4s = 0.5u/s

2.5+3+2+.66+.5+.5 = 9.16 Ultimate / Second

I said 9.41 in my original post maybe I mathed a little wrong maybe im just tired now, I have been up for 17 hrs on little sleep but point is Nightblade Tank ult regen will be nasty af... Other classes will be able to get similar ult gen too I am unsure as to how close they will get cause I simply havnt done the math but DK for example has ult regen passives Templar and Sorc (actually idk about sorc) im like 95% sure they do too.

Anywho with a tank who knows how to play the build you will get godly amounts of ulti, and just because I know people are going to say bloodspawn is unreliable

Currently I use, rather when I was tanking (before not currently as I dps nowadays) I would run ravage HP pots to guarentee my bloodspawn is procced on cooldown... the 2 arguments I see against using ravage HP is 1. its dangerous and yeah it is if your doesnt know what they are doing... also you want to be careful because the pot intially has "significant" damage when popped... but knowledge of your fights will allow proper timing... and 2. there is no benefit to your resource pools running ravage hp pots but I know for a fact you can make ravage hp + gain magicka pots idk if there is a stam equivalent but for DK and NB you can trade magicka for stam so im not to worried about that either

Polysemy wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Polysemy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that he means that those sets are made for damage dealers and not tanks or healers. OP is trying to say that zos is mostly releasing sets that are made for damage dealing instead of tanking or healing. I personally like the way zeni is releasing sets. However, I do think that healers and (especially) tanks could use some cool new unique sets.

I realize that and quite frankly proved him wrong with my post. Healers and Tanks got good things this patch while dps got very lackluster sets that have 5 piece's that may not (and in my opinion as of now) be BIS... Tava's Favor is a GODSEND and reintdoduced worm and twilights remedy is amazing for healer and tank roles

Edit : With 1 potion cooldown glyph for example and my tank build my nightblade will get 9.41 ultimate per second... that means Warhorns on cooldown, Magma shells every 26 seconds (DK Ulti is roughly the same but not as good), Barriers galore, whatever you want! )

explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate per second? potion 12 ultimate every 45s-cooldown, block hit/light attack/heal damage 3 ult per 1.5s (2 per second), synergy 2 ult every x seconds whatever cooldown is on synergizing, so please explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate a second? just incase someone thinking you can stack from block, light attack, healing you cannot. otherwise my Templar would be dropping novas like they were raindrops in a heavy downpour.

Blood Spawn 15u/6s = 2.5 u/s
Tava 9u/3s = 3 u/s
Major Heroism 6u/3s = 2u/s
Minor Heroism 6u/9s = 0.66u/s
Catalyst Passive 20u/40s = 0.5u/s
Transfer Passive 2u/4s = 0.5u/s

2.5+3+2+.66+.5+.5 = 9.16 Ultimate / Second

I said 9.41 in my original post maybe I mathed a little wrong maybe im just tired now, I have been up for 17 hrs on little sleep but point is Nightblade Tank ult regen will be nasty af... Other classes will be able to get similar ult gen too I am unsure as to how close they will get cause I simply havnt done the math but DK for example has ult regen passives Templar and Sorc (actually idk about sorc) im like 95% sure they do too.

Anywho with a tank who knows how to play the build you will get godly amounts of ulti, and just because I know people are going to say bloodspawn is unreliable

Currently I use, rather when I was tanking (before not currently as I dps nowadays) I would run ravage HP pots to guarentee my bloodspawn is procced on cooldown... the 2 arguments I see against using ravage HP is 1. its dangerous and yeah it is if your doesnt know what they are doing... also you want to be careful because the pot intially has "significant" damage when popped... but knowledge of your fights will allow proper timing... and 2. there is no benefit to your resource pools running ravage hp pots but I know for a fact you can make ravage hp + gain magicka pots idk if there is a stam equivalent but for DK and NB you can trade magicka for stam so im not to worried about that either

@Polysemy How are you keeping the Major Heroism buff active? The Last Stand passive is the only way to get it as far as I know and it has a 30 sec cooldown.

Miwerton wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Polysemy wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Polysemy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that he means that those sets are made for damage dealers and not tanks or healers. OP is trying to say that zos is mostly releasing sets that are made for damage dealing instead of tanking or healing. I personally like the way zeni is releasing sets. However, I do think that healers and (especially) tanks could use some cool new unique sets.

I realize that and quite frankly proved him wrong with my post. Healers and Tanks got good things this patch while dps got very lackluster sets that have 5 piece's that may not (and in my opinion as of now) be BIS... Tava's Favor is a GODSEND and reintdoduced worm and twilights remedy is amazing for healer and tank roles

Edit : With 1 potion cooldown glyph for example and my tank build my nightblade will get 9.41 ultimate per second... that means Warhorns on cooldown, Magma shells every 26 seconds (DK Ulti is roughly the same but not as good), Barriers galore, whatever you want! )

explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate per second? potion 12 ultimate every 45s-cooldown, block hit/light attack/heal damage 3 ult per 1.5s (2 per second), synergy 2 ult every x seconds whatever cooldown is on synergizing, so please explain how you would get 9.41 ultimate a second? just incase someone thinking you can stack from block, light attack, healing you cannot. otherwise my Templar would be dropping novas like they were raindrops in a heavy downpour.

Blood Spawn 15u/6s = 2.5 u/s
Tava 9u/3s = 3 u/s
Major Heroism 6u/3s = 2u/s
Minor Heroism 6u/9s = 0.66u/s
Catalyst Passive 20u/40s = 0.5u/s
Transfer Passive 2u/4s = 0.5u/s

2.5+3+2+.66+.5+.5 = 9.16 Ultimate / Second

I said 9.41 in my original post maybe I mathed a little wrong maybe im just tired now, I have been up for 17 hrs on little sleep but point is Nightblade Tank ult regen will be nasty af... Other classes will be able to get similar ult gen too I am unsure as to how close they will get cause I simply havnt done the math but DK for example has ult regen passives Templar and Sorc (actually idk about sorc) im like 95% sure they do too.

Anywho with a tank who knows how to play the build you will get godly amounts of ulti, and just because I know people are going to say bloodspawn is unreliable

Currently I use, rather when I was tanking (before not currently as I dps nowadays) I would run ravage HP pots to guarentee my bloodspawn is procced on cooldown... the 2 arguments I see against using ravage HP is 1. its dangerous and yeah it is if your doesnt know what they are doing... also you want to be careful because the pot intially has "significant" damage when popped... but knowledge of your fights will allow proper timing... and 2. there is no benefit to your resource pools running ravage hp pots but I know for a fact you can make ravage hp + gain magicka pots idk if there is a stam equivalent but for DK and NB you can trade magicka for stam so im not to worried about that either

@Polysemy How are you keeping the Major Heroism buff active? The Last Stand passive is the only way to get it as far as I know and it has a 30 sec cooldown.

Heroic slash,

Nah heroic slash is Minor Heroism, Major Heroism is the buff you get for... Light Attacking, Blocking Damage in Combat, and Healing someone with MH (In Combat)

Robbmrp wrote: »

If you think there's a ton of Power Creeps in PVP now, just wait till they all reroll the Argonian one that Deltia posted a video about. Argonians will be the new IC and PVP gankers.... If you think people are crying about their passives now, just wait till everyone is one shotted by them in the CP Campaigns. Instead of people crying they need to buff the Argonian passives, it will all be nerf posts about their Potion passive is OP with the new set.

How does getting 12% of your resources every 45 seconds (basically a few extra regen ticks) equate to becoming a ganking king? Any class that has +regen or +max stat will have more power and utility with the Alchemist set than an Argoninan whose racial passives also rely on that long potion cooldown.

Anyways, completely agree with OP. ESO has a big problem with enabling DPS builds to be great healers and tanks on top of cranking out damage, and it all has to do with underlying game mechanics (which gear exacerbates).

Healers and tanks have no place in ESO with the way the game, is mistakenly, being made. The best way to do a dungeon is 4 DPS that off heal or just heal themselves when needed. If you're group uses a tank and/or healer you are actually making everything harder on yourself.