problem is this would make them one of the strongest damage races out there... if it was both but half the current value i'd have no issues

Ashamray wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

problem is this would make them one of the strongest damage races out there... if it was both but half the current value i'd have no issues

problem is that cat crit passive doesn't work at all on live.

this i'm aware of but just pointing out numbers

dsalter wrote: »

problem is this would make them one of the strongest damage races out there... if it was both but half the current value i'd have no issues

I'm going to go with a no on that. It's more than a fair trade considering the loss of magicka regen, +10% max magicka and +4% damage. I had a khajit magicka templar for the longest time, until I finally leveled up an altmer. It isn't fair to us players that rolled khajit, because prior to changes done by zenimax their passives were actually not bad for magicka users. Zenimax has ruined our class and playstyle combination but did not give us a free racial change to fix this. I'm happy with my altmer very much. But I wish I didn't have to level a new toon in order to make up for the mistakes that I did not make...

Cuyler wrote: »

I get it, you got a khajiit, you want to be a magic sorc. Can I ask you a question though?

Why, did you chose a Khajiit if you wanted to be a magic sorc? Was it because of RP, or you we're misinformed, or maybe you wanted to be stam sorc originally but later decided otherwise?

I can see you wanting a buff for khajiit because you HAVE to play a khajiit for RP purposes. Any other reason though I would say why not just wait for a race change?

I personally am not for homogenizing the races to include perfectly aligned bounuses for both stamina and magic. The current system provides counterbalance, meaningful choices for certain builds, and diversity. IMO certain races should be better than others in certain situations.

Erock25 wrote: »

They aren't the dominant stam build right now [khajiit]

O.o wat?

@Cuyler I rolled khajiit on first day of early access because I wanted a stamina sorc based on critical surge healing. If you ever played Age of Conan post Khitai expansion, you would be familiar with the Dark Templar and their mechanic of healing through crits. I was basically trying to emulate that build. My play time is extremely limited so I never managed to roll another magicka race for Sorc (my next highest level character is a VR12 DK and my next highest character after that is a LVL 5 bank mule). Because I am not happy with stam sorc, and really haven't been since the patch that removed soft caps, I am forced to play a khajiit magicka sorc.

You really think Khajiit is THE dominant stamina race? It isn't bad but I'd take Redguard or Orc over Khajiit. Anyways this proposed change wouldn't buff stam Khajiits at all so that hardly matters.

I'm not exactly asking to homogenize the races so that each is just as good for stamina and magicka. If you look at the other races passives though, you'll notice a lot have benefits for both magicka and stamina builds already. Any increase to magicka or stamina total and/or regen is a benefit to any build. Of course +stamina and stamina regen is better for a stam build, but it also helps out magicka builds in a minor way. Khajiit has two passives that do close to nothing for a magicka build and I don't think adding spell crit will make them OP at all and they will clearly still be a stamina race.

Cuyler wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

You really think Khajiit is THE dominant stamina race? It isn't bad but I'd take Redguard or Orc over Khajiit. Anyways this proposed change wouldn't buff stam Khajiits at all so that hardly matters.

I won't get into the min/max of it here, I don't want to derail your thread. Like you said it doesn't apply to your request.

Erock25 wrote: »

Khajiit has two passives that do close to nothing for a magicka build and I don't think adding spell crit will make them OP at all and they will clearly still be a stamina race.

I have to respectfully disagree here. There are certain builds, where this could potentially be OP. For example hybrid DW/Bow builds with lots a DOTs. I'd say be patient as you seem to be valid candidate for a free race change if/when they are available.

It just seems to me it's a lot of development/balancing work to test and you would be better off in the long run with a race change to a magic based race anyways.

I'm curious, which DW/bow DoTs would be buffed by spell crit?

Autolycus wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

You really think Khajiit is THE dominant stamina race? It isn't bad but I'd take Redguard or Orc over Khajiit. Anyways this proposed change wouldn't buff stam Khajiits at all so that hardly matters.

I won't get into the min/max of it here, I don't want to derail your thread. Like you said it doesn't apply to your request.

Erock25 wrote: »

Khajiit has two passives that do close to nothing for a magicka build and I don't think adding spell crit will make them OP at all and they will clearly still be a stamina race.

I have to respectfully disagree here. There are certain builds, where this could potentially be OP. For example hybrid DW/Bow builds with lots a DOTs. I'd say be patient as you seem to be valid candidate for a free race change if/when they are available.

It just seems to me it's a lot of development/balancing work to test and you would be better off in the long run with a race change to a magic based race anyways.

I'm curious, which DW/bow DoTs would be buffed by spell crit?

Not the DW/bow skills specifically but the class skills in the builds that use them.

Erock25 wrote: »

@Cuyler Hybrid as in using both magicka and stamina focused DPS? Or just hybrid in that they use both DW and bow? This would be the first I've heard of anyone talking about hybrid (magicka and stamina attacks) being viable at all, but I've been wrong before.

Yeah Hybrid as in DW/bow vs. bow/bow vs. DW/DW, not attributes. sorry to confuse. Mixing attributes is not viable.

Erock25 wrote: »

As for being patient with race changes. Here I am asking for a race change option over a year ago http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150367/race-change-and-or-complete-rebalancing-of-racial-passives-are-a-must/p1 . My patience only lasts so long.

Back then it was whispers in the wind. We have some pretty solid evidence from ESO live casts that would hint we will see it by Q3-Q4 this year.

Jesh wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

After reading the bow thread and seeing that devs are paying attention, I just felt like I should make this simple and balanced suggestion. Currently the khajiit racial bonus only improves weapon crit. Can it please also increase spell crit. You practically never need spell and weapon crit at the same time so it won't be overpowered, but could really help those poor unfortunate souls who have a khajiit in a magicka spec. Racials that increase resource pools or regen provide some benefit to both magicka and stam builds, yet the khajiit passive does absolutely nothing for a magicka spec. Please consider it @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel .

Sincerely a first day of early access khajiit sorc.

Yes. Weapon and Spell Crit. Yes it makes sense, yes.

Then, they should give weapon and spell crit to daggers in the DW passive...

Erock25 wrote: »

So which class skills that scale with stamina/weapon dmg (as we're not mixing attribute focus and we're using a DW/Bow build) are being affected by spell crit?

Just because it's a stam build with MOST of the skills scaling from WD/Max Stam doesn't mean ALL of the tool kit is stamina based. Even in stamina builds there a few magic/SD based class skills being used, nevertheless they are there and will be affected by this change. And when one of those builds is already top DPS, making a change like this will make the disparity farther, possibly OP.

Alucardo wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

After reading the bow thread and seeing that devs are paying attention, I just felt like I should make this simple and balanced suggestion. Currently the khajiit racial bonus only improves weapon crit. Can it please also increase spell crit. You practically never need spell and weapon crit at the same time so it won't be overpowered, but could really help those poor unfortunate souls who have a khajiit in a magicka spec. Racials that increase resource pools or regen provide some benefit to both magicka and stam builds, yet the khajiit passive does absolutely nothing for a magicka spec. Please consider it @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel .

Sincerely a first day of early access khajiit sorc.

Yes. Weapon and Spell Crit. Yes it makes sense, yes.

Then, they should give weapon and spell crit to daggers in the DW passive...

The High Elf Fire, Shock and Frost passive should also increase poison and disease. The Breton 3% spell cost reduction should also include 3% stam cost reduction.
Let's just keep going!

The high elf already has bonus magicka and bonus magicka regen, which while not ideal for stam builds, certainly does help them to some extent. The breton 3% spell cost reduction is arguably MORE powerful for stam builds since they are unlikely to have other spell cost reduction gear and lower magicka regen so that the 3% cost reduction provides more benefit for stamina builds to use their utility spells.

Every race is focused on either magicka or stamina (nords and argonians are probably the most neutral). Every race provides some benefit to their non-optimal builds. Khajit provides the least benefit to their non-optimal build in my opinion. That, in additional to the fact that you only ever have need for EITHER spell or weapon critical, means to me that adding spell crit to the khajiit weapon crit passive makes a lot of sense.

Cuyler wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So which class skills that scale with stamina/weapon dmg (as we're not mixing attribute focus and we're using a DW/Bow build) are being affected by spell crit?

Just because it's a stam build with MOST of the skills scaling from WD/Max Stam doesn't mean ALL of the tool kit is stamina based. Even in stamina builds there a few magic/SD based class skills being used, nevertheless they are there and will be affected by this change. And when one of those builds is already top DPS, making a change like this will make the disparity farther, possibly OP.

I guess I am just ignorant of this build that focuses on stamina/weapon dmg but gets a significant portion of its DPS from an ability affected by spell crit. My gut tells me that this build would only have minor DPS contribution from the magicka/spell dmg/spell crit abilities so adding some spell crit to it would have a very minor effect, but it is very possible that I am wrong. I'm just a casual.

Xvorg wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

After reading the bow thread and seeing that devs are paying attention, I just felt like I should make this simple and balanced suggestion. Currently the khajiit racial bonus only improves weapon crit. Can it please also increase spell crit. You practically never need spell and weapon crit at the same time so it won't be overpowered, but could really help those poor unfortunate souls who have a khajiit in a magicka spec. Racials that increase resource pools or regen provide some benefit to both magicka and stam builds, yet the khajiit passive does absolutely nothing for a magicka spec. Please consider it @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel .

Sincerely a first day of early access khajiit sorc.

Yes. Weapon and Spell Crit. Yes it makes sense, yes.

Then, they should give weapon and spell crit to daggers in the DW passive...

I understand where you are coming from with this, but the core of my argument is that Khajiit racials are THE MOST punishing for magicka builds of all the races. All they have is HP/Stam regen going for them. Stealthy and magicka builds don't really line up. Carnage provides nothing for magicka builds. Weapon choice is not permanent, unlike race choice, so there is nothing about weapon passives that must be equalized for both stam and magicka builds.

Sure? Look at my avatar before saying that...

When you want to say THE MOST punishing, first think about poor ol´ lizards

At least you can do one thing well through stamina... what do a lizard do? Yup, swimming

I don't think changing khajiit racials a bit excludes an improvement to argonian racials, but yes I do believe that a Khajiit magicka build is worse off than an Argonian magicka build, especially if you liberally use potions.

Xvorg wrote: »

NBs are the only one who have increased critical strike (wpn and spell) ratings. Now you want to apply that to cats... you know waht will happen after that?

What will happen? NBs that are stamina focused will get a small boost to their magicka dmg and NBs that are magicka focused and unfortunately playing a Khajiit (less than ideal for magicka users) will get a nice boost that makes them more in line with a magicka race magicka NB. I see nothing wrong.

Great point @Zheg that I failed to mention.

Animal_Mother wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

After reading the bow thread and seeing that devs are paying attention, I just felt like I should make this simple and balanced suggestion. Currently the khajiit racial bonus only improves weapon crit. Can it please also increase spell crit. You practically never need spell and weapon crit at the same time so it won't be overpowered, but could really help those poor unfortunate souls who have a khajiit in a magicka spec. Racials that increase resource pools or regen provide some benefit to both magicka and stam builds, yet the khajiit passive does absolutely nothing for a magicka spec. Please consider it @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel .

Sincerely a first day of early access khajiit sorc.

Yes. Weapon and Spell Crit. Yes it makes sense, yes.

Then, they should give weapon and spell crit to daggers in the DW passive...

I understand where you are coming from with this, but the core of my argument is that Khajiit racials are THE MOST punishing for magicka builds of all the races. All they have is HP/Stam regen going for them. Stealthy and magicka builds don't really line up. Carnage provides nothing for magicka builds. Weapon choice is not permanent, unlike race choice, so there is nothing about weapon passives that must be equalized for both stam and magicka builds.

Try playing a magicka using Bosmer, if you think khajiit are bad.

I'd take 21% stam regen and 3% max stamina + poison/disease resistance over 20% hp regen and 10% stam regen any day for a magicka class.

I actually think this is pretty reasonable considering that they do not have any attribute bonuses.

Zheg wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

I get it, you got a khajiit, you want to be a magic sorc. Can I ask you a question though?

Why, did you chose a Khajiit if you wanted to be a magic sorc? Was it because of RP, or you we're misinformed, or maybe you wanted to be stam sorc originally but later decided otherwise?

I can see you wanting a buff for khajiit because you personally HAVE to play a khajiit for RP purposes. Any other reason though I would say why not just wait for a race change?

I personally am not for homogenizing the races to include perfectly aligned bounuses for both stamina and magic. The current system provides counterbalance, meaningful choices for certain builds, and diversity. IMO certain races should be better than others in certain situations.

Erock25 wrote: »

They aren't the dominant stam build right now [khajiit]

O.o wat?

At launch, the carnage passive gave +10% critical damage in addition to melee critical chance. The +10% critical damage made them excellent (imo the best) mages. About a month or so after launch, ZOS removed that component of the racial because players complained it was too strong. My versatile racial choice that would make an excellent magicka or stamina user is now just good at stamina because ZOS changed the racials through no fault of the players that chose races in good faith when they made their characters. We're not talking a small tweak here, 10% critical damage is a monumental change to damage and versatility.

For the topic at hand, I agree that there should be a spell crit component to khajiit racials, as that would somewhat return them to the same versatility they had at launch.

Hey @Zheg, you're kinda proving my point here though. That was taken away from Khajiit because it was unbalanced. What we have now is more balanced. Adding SC would make it more versatile yes, but in a few rare cases could possibly unbalance the race.

Is it less versatile? Sure, but like I said before, I don't feel that every race should have equal footing for every build anyhow. To each there own in that regard. Along those lines, ZOS meddled with races a lot since launch and should offer a free race change if/when they become available for situations just like yours.

Finally not all races are currently versatile. Argonians and Nords seem to get brought up the most when debating for class versatility. But no one mentions how bad Altmer is for Stamina for example. Races need to have individuality as well in my opinion . It makes race choices more meaningful, but I'll agree it is undermined by constant rebalancing and a lack of ability to change races.