Inner light breaks clouding swarm's invisibility.

olsborg · February 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

Would you also look into the cloak nerf on a general basis? is it really intended that you cant even use the skill if youre revealed by magelight or marked by piercing mark, that lasts a good 20 seconds mind you. So what was the point of the minor protection to the cloak skill if we cant even use the skill while revealed.

Domander · February 2016

If you're going to change meteor to not be reflectable, you should certainly have clouding swarm keep the caster invisible.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

Junkogen wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

You guys don't fully understand the ramifications of your changes before you implement them? That's more than a little troubling.

Clearly you've never coded something before

Junkogen · February 2016

TheM0rganism wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

You guys don't fully understand the ramifications of your changes before you implement them? That's more than a little troubling.

Clearly you've never coded something before

No, I haven't but this isn't a coding issue. They designed an ability to negate invisibility. Did they not take into consideration all the aspects and abilities in the game that use invisibility before implementation? It's a design issue, not a coding issue. Clearly you've never thought something through before.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

Junkogen wrote: »

TheM0rganism wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

You guys don't fully understand the ramifications of your changes before you implement them? That's more than a little troubling.

Clearly you've never coded something before

No, I haven't but this isn't a coding issue. They designed an ability to negate invisibility. Did they not take into consideration all the aspects and abilities in the game that use invisibility before implementation? It's a design issue, not a coding issue. Clearly you've never thought something through before.

Lighten up, son.

It's code. Period. Even if the effect is the same (i.e. become invisible), the cause is so drastically different (e.g. pots, ults, crouching, skills) that you can't be this emotional that a small group of human beings can't perform every computation their gigantic code goes through when you simply press one-button. You, admittedly, have no idea just how many states, conditions, triggers, etc. that your toon goes through when you activate an ability. Add to the fact all the re-works, hot-fixes, and patches, and you have a tome of computer language that, at this point, not even they understand anymore. It's the nature of the industry.

There's an infamous little song about coding. It goes:

99 little bugs in the code
99 little bugs in the code
Take one down,
patch it around.
117 little bugs in the code.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

Domander wrote: »

If you're going to change meteor to not be reflectable, you should certainly have clouding swarm keep the caster invisible.

Counter-play is what will keep this game alive.

RoyJade · February 2016

More than that, the invisibility granted by clouding swarm is not the same as stealth or cloak. Mobs can still target you, you gain no stealth/passive advantage, it's just a skin substitution (players can't see you). So, finding the issue and correct it isn't simple, because each particularity has is own ramification and this one isn't the same as the "common" one for invisibility. They need to find exactly how magelight de-stealth you (and trust us, it's difficult on a well-programmed solo game without any patch, so for a MMO…), find how to not de-stealth this particular stealth mechanism without breaking the other, and on top of that without breaking anything else.

It's their job, but we can't just sit and say "it should be easy, fix it now". It's hard, but they indeed have to fix it.

Master_Kas · February 2016

RoyJade wrote: »

More than that, the invisibility granted by clouding swarm is not the same as stealth or cloak. Mobs can still target you, you gain no stealth/passive advantage, it's just a skin substitution (players can't see you). So, finding the issue and correct it isn't simple, because each particularity has is own ramification and this one isn't the same as the "common" one for invisibility. They need to find exactly how magelight de-stealth you (and trust us, it's difficult on a well-programmed solo game without any patch, so for a MMO…), find how to not de-stealth this particular stealth mechanism without breaking the other, and on top of that without breaking anything else.

It's their job, but we can't just sit and say "it should be easy, fix it now". It's hard, but they indeed have to fix it.

It does give passive advantage.

My bosmer gains 20% spell/weap damage while in clouding swarm. 10% from the assassination passive and 10% from bosmer passive, khajiit has this too. I use it for both magicka and stamina (respec from time to time) and its the same spell/weapdmg increase as I get from cloak and crouched sneak aswell.

There are probably others who can confirm this.

RoyJade · February 2016

Mmmh, weird. When I've tested it a long time ago, I'm pretty sure I get nothing.
But thanks for the confirmation, I'll test it again when I'll have the time

RAGUNAnoOne · February 2016

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

Jessica according to Wrobels logic with meteor, ultimates should not have a counter so it is ether not intended or wrobel must admit he has a very heavy double standard

Lucius_Aelius · February 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

Jessica according to Wrobels logic with meteor, ultimates should not have a counter so it is ether not intended or wrobel must admit he has a very heavy double standard

That's not taking into account how much of a "counter" being made visible is with this ability. Meteor being reflected back at you when you cast it is very different than being made visible during clouding swarm, they would only be equivalent if when using clouding swarm your enemies became invisible instead of you and your own bats started attacking you, which definitely doesn't happen so it's not even close to being the same thing.

Not saying this is a good or bad change either way (I'm not even on PTS) but it definitely isn't as much of a counter as reflecting meteor is.

Xsorus · February 2016

You could always cast the NB reveal on people in clouding swarm and see them.

As well as pop reveal pots

However.....At the same time I'm wondering if ya should be allowed to...Simply because you're not really invisible..you're becoming a Bunch of Bats I believe....

revonine · February 2016

As stated already above me if ZOS intends to make ultimates not counter-able then Clouding Swarm should not be countered by Piercing Mark, the new Mages Light or detect pots.

I was fine with how it was before with meteors being reflect-able and Clouding having a counter but if they're going to make changes, make the changes consistant.

RAGUNAnoOne · February 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

Jessica according to Wrobels logic with meteor, ultimates should not have a counter so it is ether not intended or wrobel must admit he has a very heavy double standard

That's not taking into account how much of a "counter" being made visible is with this ability. Meteor being reflected back at you when you cast it is very different than being made visible during clouding swarm, they would only be equivalent if when using clouding swarm your enemies became invisible instead of you and your own bats started attacking you, which definitely doesn't happen so it's not even close to being the same thing.

Not saying this is a good or bad change either way (I'm not even on PTS) but it definitely isn't as much of a counter as reflecting meteor is.

It is getting rid of the whole point of choosing clouding over devouing, Clouding is already useless in PvE because all enemies are like daggerfall vampires when it comes to that move and see/attack you regardless. If you can't use this ultimates main effect because of an ability it is being countered and it may not be significant to you but NBs rely on this invisibility. clouding will be the crap morph for both PvP and PvE if this keeps up.

Helluin · February 2016

revonine wrote: »

As stated already above me if ZOS intends to make ultimates not counter-able then Clouding Swarm should not be countered by Piercing Mark, the new Mages Light or detect pots.

I was fine with how it was before with meteors being reflect-able and Clouding having a counter but if they're going to make changes, make the changes consistant.

I agree to have Clouding Swarm not counterable by those skills and potions as it should be ("invisibility regranted even if it's broken").

What stated instead about ultimates not counterable in theory is something not exactly true if you think to Negate.

revonine · February 2016

Helluin wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

As stated already above me if ZOS intends to make ultimates not counter-able then Clouding Swarm should not be countered by Piercing Mark, the new Mages Light or detect pots.

I was fine with how it was before with meteors being reflect-able and Clouding having a counter but if they're going to make changes, make the changes consistant.

I agree to have Clouding Swarm not counterable by those skills and potions as it should be ("invisibility regranted even if it's broken").

What stated instead about ultimates not counterable in theory is something not exactly true if you think to Negate.

Well Negate is itself an ultimate so I feel it's a valid exception, albeit very situational of course since you can break free.

Darlon · February 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're looking into this, folks (including whether or not it's intended.) Thank you!

Jessica according to Wrobels logic with meteor, ultimates should not have a counter so it is ether not intended or wrobel must admit he has a very heavy double standard

Overload would like to have a word with you....

(not saying overload should be unreflectable, just pointing out that there are more ultimates that do not behave like stated above...)

ZOS_KNowak · February 2016

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.

Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.

Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

Bfish22090 · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

Thanks.
NBs are no longer nerfed to the grounds

Junkogen · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

This is much more fair (on paper). We'll see how it actually works, but it sounds much more reasonable and not the one-two punch that was the cloak nerf plus the magelight buffs. Thank you guys for hearing us out.

Kalebron · February 2016

agreed

Helluin · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

Is this a page of the Oghma Infinium?
Thanks!

From the description it seems really a lot more balanced and an intriguing challenge.

P.s. About Clouding Swarm, at least in 2.3.0, I used it when Cloak was greyed out and also when it was available.
If Magelight was cast during the Clouding Swarm, invisibility was simply broken and not regranted otherwise, with the reveal debuff active, Clouding Swarm was starting without becoming invisible.
For a Bosmer/Khajiit NB vampire, it's a big difference because of Stealthy.

Soulac · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

You are aware that marks reveals the clouding swarm user to everyone in the current patch on live as well?
Player is marked -> player uses clouding swarm -> visible for everyone

Only the player who marked the vampire should see him, even in clouding swarm.

Intended or not? Will we see a bug fix anytime soon?

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_KNowak

Lava_Croft · February 2016

@ZOS_KNowak: Thank you for listening and adapting.

However, Piercing Mark will reveal the user of Clouding Swarm to everybody instead of just the caster of Piercing Mark. This can't be intended.

Dalsinthus · February 2016

I like the changes. Thank you for listening to feedback.

I still think the empower buff is too strong, even though I am likely to benefit from this on my sorc and could even use it on my stamblade. Magelight still gives you a lot of benefits. Including Empower is too much.

Iyas · February 2016

Nbs are safe. Maybe to the templars next?

ToRelax · February 2016

Iyas wrote: »

Nbs are safe. Maybe to the templars next?

To the Templars with Clouding Swarm!

Cinbri · February 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Nbs are safe. Maybe to the templars next?

To the Templars with Clouding Swarm!

Erondil · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

Thank you very much for the clarification on Clouding Swarm aswell as some other hot topics

curious to see how it turns out, but I will probably not stick with Clouding Swarm for long once 2.3 goes live

Bashev · February 2016

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback on the new reveal ability interactions. We’ve been closely monitoring feedback in this thread (as well as the Nightblade Class thread) and have a number of changes planned for how revealing enemy players will work. These changes will not be in the next PTS patch, but will be changed before the Thieves Guild update goes live.
Enemy players using Magelight and Revealing Flare will reveal you and prevent you from returning to stealth and invisibility for 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

We like the counterplay that Magelight and Revealing Flare have against stealth and invisibility, but agree the current lockout period is too punishing. Also note that the reveal lockout duration cannot be refreshed. The lockout should only occur if you are pulled out of stealth or invisibility – if you cast Magelight or Revealing Flare on a non-invisible target, it should have no effect.
Piercing Mark will no longer prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility. It will match its behavior currently on the Live megaservers, and will only give the caster of the Piercing Mark unerring vision of you.

Unlike Magelight and Revealing Flare, you can constantly refresh Piercing Mark on an enemy. Being able to indefinitely prevent you from entering stealth or invisibility was too strong, especially since Piercing Mark has an extremely long range and duration.

We’d also like to clarify to say that the current interaction of Clouding Swarm and reveal abilities is intended. The global change to revealing noted above will make this less punishing for players who pick this morph, but we will be keeping a close eye on how it performs when compared to the Devouring Swarm morph.

And again ZoS heart the crying NBs while Templars.... they are templars. Revealing Flare will be pointless again. Thank you ZoS.
I can see a 4 men NB bomb squad jumping killing and disappearing. The whine for nerf magicka NB will be so loud next patch.