The haves and have nots in PVP

Duiwel · February 2016

Backstory:
I am in the have not camp & I am content with that for now because you know what OP? I did NOT play the game for more than 1 month in 2014 ( work took me away from home and I had subbed for 6 months ). I didn't resub until the game actually went F2P ... ( the irony ). So I missed out on my tiger pet, which was sad, because I didn't even know about it. oh well

The reason for the bit of history is since 19 Dec - now I have 2 VR16 chars on EU. Before then the highest I had was level 26 or 28. I am also on my way for my 3rd VR16 or I will just take all my alts to VR1 and play them as I see fit.

TLDR:Start here
The point is come Thieves Guild DLC AP reduction cost for leveling will mean at least all 4 my DC chars will have all those PvP skills. I am patient, I will get them on all 4 long before DB DLC is released

(Darkside has cookies).

4. will never be removed they said combat animation cancellation is here to stay might as well get practicing... I have already started learning to weave on my sorc & I am about to start practicing it on my DK for light attacks.

Conclusion:
I am adaptable...like a chameleon, so I will eventually be on par with these guys before DB is out I am sure ( because before then I will be at CP cap ) already at 280 something CP.

edited because I made a typo I wrote Bacstory*

Jade1986 · February 2016

A simple solution for the gear problem would be to create PVP specific gear which you could buy from the siege vendors that is more competitive than the pve gear you can craft or find , which you could buy with AP. Just like SWTOR does.

It would be highly useful in pvp, and useless in pve. And it should be the other way around as well. PVE gear should be near useless in pvp.

Lord Xanhorn · February 2016

Wow, this is crazy. You people are hearing what you want to hear. I never said that I want everything for nothing. Or that new players shouldn't work for the rewards. Or that experienced vet players should have their accounts deleted.

I say I think the gap is too wide and you hear I want that they eliminate the gap. Kinda sad really.

IMO the solutions are

High end gear should give a smaller advantage
CP stats should be capped at 8-10% instead of 25%
Skill gains are being reduced and we'll see how that helps...This is a step in the right direction
Animation cancelling is terrible and should be eliminated
Player skill is great and should be a huge advantage
Bugs obviously should be squashed immediately

Again. The gap should exist. Work should be needed to get on top. And I am not even arguing that the time it takes to acquire these advantages is too long...although in some cases it is IMO...I'm saying the gap is too wide and the advantages are too great. That's it.

Robbmrp · February 2016

Nestor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

if you think that knowing bugs and exploits is even remotely on par with being good then you're part of the problem

I do feel the other 5 things are points that SHOULD cause a disparity in PvP effectiveness though

Are there really any bugs and exploits that create a huge disparity between two players?

Of course the other factors could create a disparity between players, but does that disparity equate to win count?

8 mundus stones can have a huge impact on that players ability to survive. When you combine that with max CP also, even those at max CP as well will have a hard time killing this worthless exploiter.

Xellos77 · February 2016

Your+average+major+pvp+mmo+battle_6d8838_4155363.jpg

rfennell_ESO · February 2016

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

PVP in this game is either one of the best experiences in any MMO or one of the worst. I believe that's due to the very HUGE disparity between the haves and have nots. This chasm is very evident in almost all encounters in small scale PVP and in my opinion should majorly be addressed before small scale events (arenas/BGS) sanctioned by ZOS are implemented. The worst part about it is the disparity between the best and worst PVPers goes well beyond skill. Here are a few things that really make the valley gigantic.

4. Combat system manipulations - This is tied to player skill but considerably different since you are gaming the system. If you are a master of animation cancelling, block casting, or other ways to manipulate the combat system, you are simply just doing more than someone who isnt. Your do more damage and take less damage and it just comes down to understanding how the combat system works better than someone who doesn't. If you don't think this is a big deal, think again. Its a HUGE advantage.

6. Bug knowledge and exploits. - Every game has them and every game has players who exploit them. Even though no one wants them, they are still a considerable disadvantage to people who don't know or use them. Unfortunately ZOS takes its sweet time fixing these and usually only addresses them every major quality of life patch. That would be all well and good but as soon as they fix 3 or 4 of the worst offenders, 3 or 4 pop up in their place. This is just a constant thing that PVPers have to deal with but they offer a huge benefit nonetheless.

Those are the 2 issues ESO has right now.

They are one in the same btw.

There is a contingent of cheats in this game that rely on macros and bug exploitation to play.

You see them every day and they all say the same things "get gud" "salt whatever" "I'm steaming this and everyone knows u r bad".

They are cheats and they need to be BANNED.

Kolache · February 2016

I'm always in favor of equalizing/normalizing PvP as much as possible, but I totally understand that there are just as many people that are completely against that. "PvP should be about skill not math" vs. "This is an MMO, go play Counterstrike" stuff aside, I'd just rather constantly have new blood entering PvP even at the cost of losing some veteran players unsatisfied with their progression options. The more accessible PvP is for newbies, the lower the skill/stat cap is for vets.

It seems like every MMO I've played at some point started normalizing player stats in PvP when populations got low enough. The next WoW expansion is going even further to do that as well. I can see why the opposite is more satisfying, but it just never seems to be sustainable. I think people don't figure there's any point in "paying their dues" when there aren't enough other fodder that agree, and there will always be attrition at the top.

Bossdonut · February 2016

Gear shouldn't be on the list. This is an rpg

CP is pretty dumb but you'll have 0 cp campaigns for newbies

PVP skills will be more easily obtainable. Like stupidly easy

I agree with 4. I doubt animation canceling and etc were intended mechanics, but much like the BXR of halo 2 it has just become a staple. They either don't know how to fix it, or just accepted it in lieu of developing some other combat system, basically tying it to player skill as you mentioned already.

Player skill. Duh?

Exploitz n cheetahs. The scums of the earth. Every game has them. Every dev tries to fix them. It's a constant everywhere. If you can't beatem, joinem (or report them I guess.)

This seems like more of a whine thread. And I'm all out of cheese.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

I don't recall Karl Marx or Freidrich Engels playing this game.

Bossdonut · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I don't recall Karl Marx or Freidrich Engels playing this game.

I take it you are not feeling the bern

binho · February 2016

Bad players will kill this game... Not because they are bad, but because they refuse to work and improve their skills! It's so much easier to ask for nerfs and complain about the system:/

Lord Xanhorn · February 2016

Geesh...Everyday is a few more people who totally miss the point of the thread. Its not a whine fest complaining that a gap exists or that new players shouldn't have to work. The point of this thread is that the gap between the high end players and the newbies is too wide. The gap should exist but not be so big. CP free campaigns and faster skill acquisition is a step in the right direction though.

Wreuntzylla · February 2016

Nestor wrote: »

1. Gear is not all that important. Yes, the Min-Maxers are now all getting a posse together to hunt me down but its the truth. A good player in moderate gear is still better than a moderate player in great gear. Same with Champ points to an extent. Can gear have an impact on the outcome, sure, but is it the prevailing factor as to why one player wins over another? Nope. Look at your Death Recaps, its not 10% less gear that is killing you, its the other players skill rotations.
2. The catch up mechanic for Champ Points is quite good actually. It does not take all that long to get to 300 points. And once at 300 points, your going to be on par with those who are at the current cap of 501. Heck I have gained from 300 to 450 since Orsinium came out and that is with 0 grinding, just doing the quests up there with 4 alts and that is on the lean part of the catch up curve.
3. I guess you have not seen the new AP requirements for levels in the PTS. It will be much easier to obtain these skills with Thieves Guild
4, 5, and 6. Yes, these take practice and it all part of getting good.

1. Skill rotations are not the prevailing factor. Sustained damage avoidance is.
2. 360 points is the break point.
3. Bug exploitation is part of getting gud? Well I'll be damned.

Johngo0036 · February 2016

@Lord Xanhorn - I hear you and understand where you are coming from,
Just remember one thing,

Alot of these guys that have all this gear, CP, etc all started at EXACTLY the point new guys are at now,
Actually back then it was worse...

As a vr1 in Cyrodiil you had no battle leveling... it was you and you crappy stats vs a vr12/vr14 then and you DIED......

Brushed yourself up off the ground(respawn) and off you went back to the fight coz if you didn't you werent going to learn....

The problem is that alot of new player want stuff but don't want to put in the work to get them.... I wanted all monster helms,
I tried and then gave up.... I didn't go cry about it i made all my builds without them.. its possible.....

i am certainly not the best in cyrodiil but i promise you will always find someone worse than you..... lol.....

Run in groups of 4 and gank... I used to run with my friend, 2 of us and we used to gank.. you learn very quickly who the guys are that you dont want to gank coz they are too op...

Xeniph · February 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I would really like to know where all this expectation of "fairness" comes from.

You want all this you have to work for it. That's how life works.

Kids these days, I swear.

You're not wrong...

... but on the other hand, surely you can see that being continuously roflstomped by superior firepower is going to make a lot of people just walk away.

Global Agenda was a skill-based game, and it was very possible for noobs to take on the best players in the top end gear - because the top-end gear gave something like a meagre +5% damage over the base equipment. Yeah, it's a totally different game, but they recognized that pitting scrubs with crap gear against pro's with gold gear wasn't going to be much fun for half the players...

I get that an MMO requires "work" to get the best stuff - and that's why I very rarely venture into PvP. Because I simply don't have the time to work as hard as some people, and end up with nothing but rage and tears to show for it. I've got better ways to spend my evenings, and learning how to "git gud" while being teabagged is pretty low on my list.

Nope I don't agree. I fully expect to get my ass handed to me if I am a noob. However I have been MMOing for 19+years, so I come from a different era.

When it comes to pvp, there is only one way to learn and that's the hard way. If a player is not willing to do that, I'd much rather see them leave.

Bossdonut · February 2016

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Geesh...Everyday is a few more people who totally miss the point of the thread. Its not a whine fest complaining that a gap exists or that new players shouldn't have to work. The point of this thread is that the gap between the high end players and the newbies is too wide. The gap should exist but not be so big. CP free campaigns and faster skill acquisition is a step in the right direction though.

Those are the only things other than exploiting, all of which are being fixed. The rest of this gap isn't anyone's fault but the player who is getting rekT

Kaspar · February 2016

7. (or possibly some other #) Third party add-ons. These give players who use them a distinct advantage over those who do not.

willymchilybily · February 2016

to me the biggest impact on my PvP performance came from things outside of all the above mentioned. playing on a good connection, switching up my build to run drinks/regen, and running with experienced small team.

the only big differences i agree with is

CP gap (there will soon be CP free campaigns and this is being addressed with cap and catch up also. not much else to be done)
top gear (with battle levelling scaling of your stats at your level it means out dated gear or blue gear is far less effective. as for gear colour at V16 outside of the weapon it is negligible for most classes/builds)

heng14rwb17_ESO · February 2016

Have some mercy on the noobs and newbies !
Do not wipe them too often.

dennissomb16_ESO · February 2016

I get the cumulative effect that the OP was talking about. The nature of MMOs is that the 60+ hour a week crowd will simply always have more. The trick is to sift through the l2p and "earn" your (insert gear/cp etc here) and find what works best for your gaming to get the most enjoyment out of ESO.

Honestly the best suggestion I always try to give is spend the most time in game finding a guild of like minded people and playing with them. Your PvE and PvP enjoyment will go up hugely.

DurzoBlint13 · February 2016

well of the PvEers that QQ about Alliance skills will get their Magica Det and Caltrops when TG hits, but that is not going to make them good players. What OP is failing to realize is that anyone that already has those skills has been in PvP long enough to have a bit of experience at 1vX and has probably taken the time to research and make a build that is focused on PvP. There is a huge difference in builds when it comes to PvP and PvE. A great PvE build will be competeive if you know what you are doing in PvP, but you will never stand up to the pure PvP builds that dominate Cyrodil. And vice versa- top PvP builds will not perform as well in a dungeon as a top PvE build. If you are serious about PvP, you have a build geared specifically for PvP- gear, skills, CP, even enchants have different focus in PvP than they do in PvE. All of those differences (and more importantly player skill) make a big impact on how a player performs in Cyrodil

eliisra · February 2016

Main disparity in PvP is when a player with experience faces someone that doesn't have a clue about PvP.

I cant even call it l2p, because it's not just about what you normally consider individual skill, like reaction time, fitted keybinds or piano fingers on the keyboard. This is about knowledge.

Knowing what CP to invest in, what over-performing skills to slot and when. This in combination with the right gear, passives, right pots, right food, right traits and weapons. That's like 90% of being a winner in PvP, knowing everything about current meta, which includes everything from build, skills to correct playstyle.

You can have a PvE'er in full legendary and capped CP and he still gets destroyed in a couple of seconds by under-geared lower CP player, that knows PvP.

Ishammael · February 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Honestly, I am reading this thread as...

I want a button that lets me be gold v16 501 AVA50 Emperor all campaigns super siege with 50 billion gold and 100 stacks of tripots and i want it NOW

This is pretty much all I read.

The fun of this game -- and nearly everything else in life -- is learning, failing, trying again, until you succeed against something really hard. All those "reasons" you just listed are the same for every, single player. How you meet them is part of the measure of your worth as a player.

Ishammael · February 2016

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Have some mercy on the noobs and newbies !
Do not wipe them too often.

Pretty much the best thing you can do for a new player is wipe the floor with them. It serves so purpose to "go easy". They need to learn.

DurzoBlint13 · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Honestly, I am reading this thread as...

I want a button that lets me be gold v16 501 AVA50 Emperor all campaigns super siege with 50 billion gold and 100 stacks of tripots and i want it NOW

This is pretty much all I read.

The fun of this game -- and nearly everything else in life -- is learning, failing, trying again, until you succeed against something really hard. All those "reasons" you just listed are the same for every, single player. How you meet them is part of the measure of your worth as a player.

perfectly said! +1 agree

Artjuh90 · February 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@Lord Xanhorn
1. Gear disparity should be in an mmo. It does not break anything in pvp as all players can get there.

2. Same as the above. Makes a difference, but there are going to be non cp pvp zones. I like champion points bc, again, all players can get them.

3. All players can get them. Again.

4. All players can and should learn these to be competitive.

5. Not a problem in pvp.

6. Needs fixing.

If you want a pvp have where everyone is symmetrically or asymmetrically balanced with nothing to work towards than player skill then play StarCraft.

Zos is already putting things in game to address cp and skills.

This is an mmo

I think you fail to understand my point. I never said that these gaps were insurmountable and that if you are a have not you can't turn into a have. I am simply saying that each one of the list advantages is sizeable and if you combine all of them, a new player is fighting an unwinnable battle. Yes you can spend hours getting mats to craft v16 gear, and you can spend hours grinding AP to unlock skills, and you can spend hours getting 501 CP, and you can spend countless hours getting better skill and learning the combat effectively, but when you add up all the hours it takes to overcome these advantages, it seems undaunting when you are at the start.

If you stacked all the advantages and you were say 40-50% stronger than me then I would say fine. But in actuality, stacking all the stated advantages realistically makes you 300-400% stronger than me. Its a huge gap and I don't think its as big in any other MMO out there.

What are you wanting, then? All that you have listed (I'm not counting exploits atm) are available to ANY player. Do you want ZoS to find another way to take away from people who have played this game thus far? I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for in this post.

Honestly, I am reading this thread as...

I want a button that lets me be gold v16 501 AVA50 Emperor all campaigns super siege with 50 billion gold and 100 stacks of tripots and i want it NOW

Basically how I've read this post as well.

I remember when I was an AWFUL PvPer and PvEr lol. I literally had no clue. It took me getting roflstomped, learning to duel, learning the inner mechanics of the game, practicing rotations, farming countless mats, trying different gear setups, etc. etc. to become the decent player that I am in this game.

It annoys me more than just a little bit when I read posts such as this that complain about people like us who have spent time and effort into playing and learning this game in and out. You don't have to play all the time to be a good player or to "stand a chance" against experienced players; you just need to use the time you do have to learn the game and to get the materials you need for what you want gear-wise and such.

Not sure what else the OP is wanting. Do you just want ZoS to delete all the accounts of the people who have sustained this game thus far? Because, really, this post is nonsense and quite literally sounds like someone can't handle their own l2p issues.

I think with the CP catch-up mechanic, and the soon removal of Vet Ranks, ZoS is accommodating newer players well enough.

CP grind will be larger then Vet grind. so No it's not helping the newer player. it's helping the (mainly) PvP player who wants several alts for the FOTM

Cryhavoc · February 2016

ZOS just needs to fix the game, and have a clear vision for class balance....

Problems solved.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

Cryhavoc wrote: »

ZOS just needs to fix the game, and have a clear vision for class balance....

Problems solved.

Yup, this game has a lot of issues though

they talk about arena's? LOL! they will have to scrap the classes completely and start over if they even want to hope to make a competitive pvp arena environment. The classes we have in this game right now and its skillsets were never designed for arena's....and good luck with that...

AshTal · February 2016

I have said this on countless threads the difference between the 1% and the other 99% is insane. A 1%er can kill 10 99%ers without even having an issue. I know we have issues with gear, racial bonuses, min-maxers and so on but I can see someone being able to beat another player without a struggle but when someone is soaking up damage from 5 players and still kicking out enough damage to take them out 1 at a time I figure something is wrong. They don't appear to be doing anything special just their shields seem to be 25K and they are kicking out the same attacks only they seem to be doing 3 times the damage of anyone else's.

In its self this is just annoying but then the dev's use these characters to decide what needs to be nerfed and whats ok and the people who get hit hardest are the average players.

rfennell_ESO · February 2016

AshTal wrote: »

I have said this on countless threads the difference between the 1% and the other 99% is insane. A 1%er can kill 10 99%ers without even having an issue. I know we have issues with gear, racial bonuses, min-maxers and so on but I can see someone being able to beat another player without a struggle but when someone is soaking up damage from 5 players and still kicking out enough damage to take them out 1 at a time I figure something is wrong. They don't appear to be doing anything special just their shields seem to be 25K and they are kicking out the same attacks only they seem to be doing 3 times the damage of anyone else's.

In its self this is just annoying but then the dev's use these characters to decide what needs to be nerfed and whats ok and the people who get hit hardest are the average players.

Yes, there is a HUGE difference in toughness you find that doesn't have any real explanation.

A lot of it is skill... a lot. But, it's not always just skill.

Currently those willing to sync and exploit gap closers are the worst of the bunch.