Dark Flare needs adjustments

cazlonb16_ESO · February 2016

Considering the epic rivers of tears this ability will cause if it goes live like this ( 2.3.2 ), I believe it deserves a separate thread.

Let's not sugarcoat it: It does too much damage. Dark Flare is quite possibly the hardest hitting ability in the game right now, or very close anyway. I was certain ZOS would nerf it before TG goes live, but atm it doesn't look like it. There will be tons of whine threads literally hours after the servers come up about this skill and we all know what will happen then...Jesus Beam says hi. It is in the interest of Templar players themselves to direct some attention to this issue and hopefully prevent an over nerf ( hopes of success are slim, but you gotta try ).

Unfortunately the handling of Dark Flare is the perfect example of ZOS' modus operandi when it comes to the Templar class. They ignore the enormous amount of often insightful feedback, identify some problem that doesn't exist and ignore the problems that do exist, come up with a half-baked solution to said non-existing problem and then have to spend even more work to clean up the mess their "solution" to a non-existing problem caused, while the actual real problems persist.

Why do people not use Dark Flare ?

The reason is not and never was the damage !

It has always hit hard. Really hard. And now it is over the top.

The reason people don't use it is and has always been the cast and travel time !

Mobility is a crucial element of the combat system in ESO. The new challenging PvE content, solo, group and raid, has been designed specifically around mobility. Standing still and casting your Dark Flare, Sweeps and Healing Ritual inside the cookie-sized Rune Focus just doesn't work. At all. This is even more true in PvP.

So let's try this weird thing with identifying the actual issue again, shall we.

What's not the problem ?

Damage. It's fine on live already.

What is the issue ?

Usability when the Templar is under any pressure by enemies. ( And currently on PTS too much damage by Dark Flare in the few situations the Templar isn't. )

What is to be done ?

Damage buff needs to be reverted. In the long run it will only cause harm to the Templar class itself. As for the usability, we could start with fixing the 1.7 seconds on the first cast...You know, an actual real existing issue with the skill. In addition it would need a mechanic so Templars can use it when under attack. Instant proc, some form of uninteruptability, etc. Maybe the two well known 40+ pages threads might contain some ideas ?

Jura23 · February 2016

I think it will be perfect for PvP. Great opener as often enemy is not even aware of you or is occupied already, they will not know they need to dodge until its too late.

Soris · February 2016

Nerf thread or?? Well this was too soon. But either way i have to agree with this. As a templar. Yes. Because Dark Flare damage is already good in live. With self empower+heal debuff etc, it's overall good spell. But people often don't use it just because it is hard casted and has a long travel time, not because its damage is bad or something. It has very limited use and very situational skill, so people just use something else instead, magicka detonation mostly.

The other morph however, Solar Barrage is where you should have put this buff, it's terrible. Terrible damage and it has a root bug similar to gap closer root.

Cinbri · February 2016

The main problem is that it was already buffed with 12% damage buff. No way they will look on it again after it already got their attention before.

Mr_Nobody · February 2016

Because an ability with a long cast time + travel time + being visible from miles away that its being cast and/or flying towards you needs a nerf? I have it on my bars since 1.6 and I got to say its pretty challenging to land it mid fights. I do not think the damage increase was necessary but I will take it. For the risks that Templar gets in while trying to cast it.

It does wonders during keep defenses/attacks, I usually cast 2 darkflares into jesus beam and peeps disappear, now it will be just easier due to increased damage and jesus beam actually working.

BalticBlues · February 2016

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

epic rivers of tears this ability will cause if it goes live like this ( 2.3.2 )

No need to worry. After 2.3.2 goes live,
so many Templars will quit because of the epic nerfs
(BOL, Kagrenacs, mobility [mandatory circles for healing] etc.)
that probably only a handful of diehards will remain to cast Dark Flares.

As a Templar, I would happily give the buffed Flares back if this would
prevent the big nerf patch from happening so that I could keep my humble Templar.

Maulkin · February 2016

I think Solar Barrage and Dark Flare seem like two completely different skills instead of different morphs. I think Templars would benefit from having them as separate skills and getting rid of the pretty useless Backlash **

Then flare could be modified like so:
- Base Skill: 1" cast-time, high single target damage and Defile
- Dark Flare: Still high damage and 1" cast time. It loses the Defile but grants 20" of Major Sorcery and Major Breach on the target which reduces target spell res. It would make it extremely useful as a part of PvE rotation (PvE morph)
- New Morph: Lower damage than the base skill. But it gets insta-cast proc chance for high damage. Keeps the Defile. (PvP morph)

The Solar Barrage skill could be an AoE focused skill now, and they could tweak each morph to give something different. For example, one morph could self-empower for higher burst damage the other morph could add a DoT component or minor Breach against the targets or Minor Maim or something....

That way you can choose a single target skill and an aoe skill and not have to choose one or the other.

** If they want to give a PvE damage buff to Templars to compensate for loss of Eclipse they can do it by buffing Luminous Shards (the other morph of Blazing Spears) to do really strong ground DoT damage without the stun. Like they did with Sorc Liquid Lighting which is extremely good in PvE.

Derra · February 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

I think it will be perfect for PvP. Great opener as often enemy is not even aware of you or is occupied already, they will not know they need to dodge until its too late.

Darkflare makes the most obnoxious sound when casted it´s impossible to miss that.

Destruent · February 2016

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think Solar Barrage and Dark Flare seem like two completely different skills instead of different morphs. I think Templars would benefit from having them as separate skills and getting rid of the pretty useless Backlash **

Then flare could be modified like so:
- Base Skill: 1" cast-time, high single target damage and Defile
- Dark Flare: Still high damage and 1" cast time. It loses the Defile but grants 20" of Major Sorcery and Major Breach on the target which reduces target spell res. It would make it extremely useful as a part of PvE rotation (PvE morph)
- New Morph: Lower damage then base skill. But gets insta-cast proc chance for high damage. Keeps the Defile. (PvP morph)

The Solar Barrage skill could be an AoE focused skill now they could tweak each morph to give something different. For example, one morph could self-empower for higher burst damage damage the other morph could add a DoT component or minor Breach against the targets or Minor Maim or something....

That way you can choose a single target skill and an aoe skill and not have to choose one or the other.

** If they want to give a PvE damage buff to Templars to compensate for loss of Eclipse they can do it by buffing Luminous Shards (the other morph of Blazing Spears) to do really strong ground DoT damage without the stun. Like they did with Sorc Liquid Lighting which is extremely good in PvE.

pls let Backlash untouched, had some nice 27k+ Hits yesterday, so i think it's viable in a pve-rotation

Your dark-Flare changes wouldn't make it more viable...just more useless:
1. no Empower-->20% less dmg
2. Major Sorcery-->potions/DK will buff you
3. major Breach-->taunt/elemental drain will provide this

This instacast ideo could be interesting for PvP/PvE, but i think Dark flare is rly strong atm...especiallly in PvE.

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

It hits hard because it has a cast time and long travel time, it's not OP at all.

Maulkin · February 2016

Destruent wrote: »

1. no Empower-->20% less dmg. Not necessarily you can adjust the damage
3. Major Sorcery-->potions/DK will buff you. And? what if you don't have a DK cause youre doing vMA or you prefer using tri-stat pots
4. major Breach-->taunt/elemental drain will provide this. Again what if you don't have another tank cause your doing solo PvE or the boss is ranged like Engine Guard or Fungal Grotto so the tank can't Pierce him. What if you want to DD/Heal with DW and don't want to use Destro for Ele Drain?

I proposed a list of buffs with no downside the way I see it. You are telling me there are other ways to get those buffs from weapons or other classes which of course applies to everything. Doesn't mean it's not nice to have more options.

Anyway, that's just only my opinion, you're of course welcome to disagree.

Destruent · February 2016

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

1. no Empower-->20% less dmg. Not necessarily you can adjust the damage
3. Major Sorcery-->potions/DK will buff you. And? what if you don't have a DK cause youre doing vMA or you prefer using tri-stat pots
4. major Breach-->taunt/elemental drain will provide this. Again what if you don't have another tank cause your doing solo PvE or the boss is ranged like Engine Guard or Fungal Grotto so the tank can't Pierce him. What if you want to DD/Heal with DW and don't want to use Destro for Ele Drain?

I proposed a list of buffs with no downside the way I see it. You are telling me there are other ways to get those buffs from weapons or other classes which of course applies to everything. Doesn't mean it's not nice to have more options.

Anyway, that's just only my opinion, you're of course welcome to disagree.

Sure, it would have it's uses for Solo-PvE, but i usually see it in the context of group-PvE, should have added it to my post...

Ashamray · February 2016

I won't use Darkflare. It's a noobkiller only. Now I won't be able to reflect my Flare back or purify it, so it will be even harder to land this skill. Ofc, I'm telling about average\good players, who knows how to interrupt.

oibam · February 2016

Nerf Templar. ZOS always buffed that class.

Itoq · February 2016

I try to use DF as a change of pace cast in PVP to try to catch players off guard or to hit people in the back when they are fighting other players.

By far the most common outcome of casting DF is that it is entirely avoided by dodge roll, LOS, interrupt, player casually strolling out of range, general CC or reflect.

Still, I keep DF slotted because DF landing gives nearly as much joy as winning the lottery - even if it is less likely.

I am not playing PTS, so I can't say much about how the damage increase is, but I think all DF really needed was .1-.2 seconds less of cast and travel time to give it just a few more percentage chances of landing.

If .1-.2 seconds proved to be not enough buff then they could decreased the cast time or buffed the damage in a subsequent patch.

EgoRush · February 2016

I don't think this is an issue in PvP really. Every class can access a reflect skill (Templar Total Dark, DK Scales, Sword and Board). Everyone can roll dodge. The thing has a ridiculous telegraph and you can hear it coming a mile off. Wrecking Blow will still be more of an issue than Dark Flare imo.

You'll see us Templars dying to our own Dark Flare if we're not careful than our targets I bet :P

Ishammael · February 2016

New "one-shot" combo (guaranteed): Flare --> javelin --> Radiant.

Maulkin · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

New "one-shot" combo (guaranteed): Flare --> javelin --> Radiant.

In the duels I was instagibbed a few times by flare->toppling->dawnbreaker->radiant. Seemed to work pretty well too

Ishammael · February 2016

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

New "one-shot" combo (guaranteed): Flare --> javelin --> Radiant.

In the duels I was instagibbed a few times by flare->toppling->dawnbreaker->radiant. Seemed to work pretty well too

Yeah, DB will be part of it. And prox det.

Thing is, you can do the first rotation from the comfort of 24m away.

EDIT: I forgot to say that you could mash HtD for infinite heals, too.

EgoRush · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

New "one-shot" combo (guaranteed): Flare --> javelin --> Radiant.

In the duels I was instagibbed a few times by flare->toppling->dawnbreaker->radiant. Seemed to work pretty well too

Yeah, DB will be part of it. And prox det.

Thing is, you can do the first rotation from the comfort of 24m away.

EDIT: I forgot to say that you could mash HtD for infinite heals, too.

Crescent Sweep does more damage with the 66% buff to enemies in front over Dawnbreaker now (excluding if they are vampires of course)

maxjapank · February 2016

EgoRush wrote: »

I don't think this is an issue in PvP really. Every class can access a reflect skill (Templar Total Dark, DK Scales, Sword and Board). Everyone can roll dodge. The thing has a ridiculous telegraph and you can hear it coming a mile off. Wrecking Blow will still be more of an issue than Dark Flare imo.

You'll see us Templars dying to our own Dark Flare if we're not careful than our targets I bet :P

Yep. No need to nerf for pvp. It's fine as is with the cast time and travel time.

Maulkin · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

New "one-shot" combo (guaranteed): Flare --> javelin --> Radiant.

In the duels I was instagibbed a few times by flare->toppling->dawnbreaker->radiant. Seemed to work pretty well too

Yeah, DB will be part of it. And prox det.

Thing is, you can do the first rotation from the comfort of 24m away.

EDIT: I forgot to say that you could mash HtD for infinite heals, too.

Most annoying thing was I could see the combo coming and I had to block the Toppling Charge. Which meant my shields were taking double the time to cast with these new animation changes because i was holding block.

So I could see the combo coming, but I could literally not put shields up as fast as the incoming hits. It was sooo frustrating.

bikerangelo · February 2016

You can dodge, block, reflect, LoS, and probably do 8000 other things to counter dark flare, along with the fact that it's a giant yellow puff ball with the most ridiculous travel path in the game. Plus it can be bashed / interrupted and the caster's movement speed is snared.

But no, #nerftemplars.

cazlonb16_ESO · February 2016

Ashamray wrote: »

I won't use Darkflare. It's a noobkiller only. Now I won't be able to reflect my Flare back or purify it, so it will be even harder to land this skill. Ofc, I'm telling about average\good players, who knows how to interrupt.

Itoq wrote: »

I try to use DF as a change of pace cast in PVP to try to catch players off guard or to hit people in the back when they are fighting other players.

By far the most common outcome of casting DF is that it is entirely avoided by dodge roll, LOS, interrupt, player casually strolling out of range, general CC or reflect.

Still, I keep DF slotted because DF landing gives nearly as much joy as winning the lottery - even if it is less likely.

EgoRush wrote: »

I don't think this is an issue in PvP really. Every class can access a reflect skill (Templar Total Dark, DK Scales, Sword and Board). Everyone can roll dodge. The thing has a ridiculous telegraph and you can hear it coming a mile off. Wrecking Blow will still be more of an issue than Dark Flare imo.

You'll see us Templars dying to our own Dark Flare if we're not careful than our targets I bet :P

That's exactly my point - A damage increase does absolutely nothing to adress any of these issues. Yet, occasionally DF will connect for outrageous numbers. And the nerf train to Templar Town will get going. Did ZOS ever refuse to hop onto that one ? See...

danno8 · February 2016

12% extra damage and now it is OP?

Seriously in U9 their will be so many DK's with wings up reflecting your empowered DF back at you with an additional 20% damage on top of that.

I say leave the skill until people complain. No point in pre-nerfing the super-nerf class. Enjoy it while it lasts, if you don't one-shot yourself first.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2016

I agree. Now that Templar healing is getting nerfed some of the Templars might try to kill someone. And it looks like they might be able to. We better stop that crap before it gets started.

eliisra · February 2016

bikerangelo wrote: »

You can dodge, block, reflect, LoS, and probably do 8000 other things to counter dark flare, along with the fact that it's a giant yellow puff ball with the most ridiculous travel path in the game. Plus it can be bashed / interrupted and the caster's movement speed is snared.

But no, #nerftemplars.

That wasn't the point of OP.

He wants to revert the dmg in exchange of higher usability on the skill, like insta-cast proc, faster cast time or harder to interrupt etc.

I totally agree with him. Getting Dark Flare of and actually landing on the target in PvP is like 50/50. If you're under attack&pressured yourself it's more like 0% chance of getting Dark Flare of.

Adding 12% more dmg makes no difference for templars that chooses to fight upfront. You cant land the skill to begin with due to longer than life cast-time and travelling time. Sorc's wont hardcast Frags unless noob. Yet templars are expected to hardcast Dark Flare successfully?

I have no doubt the buff will be nice for PvE. But when it comes to PvP it just promotes a crappy and unfun playstyle. Only way you're getting it of consistently is if playing like a total ***. Back-lining the megazerg with skilled Legolas wannabes and nuking someone already outnumbered, rooted and cc'ed like 40 meters away

bikerangelo · February 2016

eliisra wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

You can dodge, block, reflect, LoS, and probably do 8000 other things to counter dark flare, along with the fact that it's a giant yellow puff ball with the most ridiculous travel path in the game. Plus it can be bashed / interrupted and the caster's movement speed is snared.

But no, #nerftemplars.

That wasn't the point of OP.

He wants to revert the dmg in exchange of higher usability on the skill, like insta-cast proc, faster cast time or harder to interrupt etc.

I totally agree with him. Getting Dark Flare of and actually landing on the target in PvP is like 50/50. If you're under attack&pressured yourself it's more like 0% chance of getting Dark Flare of.

Adding 12% more dmg makes no difference for templars that chooses to fight upfront. You cant land the skill to begin with due to longer than life cast-time and travelling time. Sorc's wont hardcast Frags unless noob. Yet templars are expected to hardcast Dark Flare successfully?

I have no doubt the buff will be nice for PvE. But when it comes to PvP it just promotes a crappy and unfun playstyle. Only way you're getting it of consistently is if playing like a total ***. Back-lining the megazerg with skilled Legolas wannabes and nuking someone already outnumbered, rooted and cc'ed like 40 meters away

Don't get me wrong, that'd be fantastic if Dark Flare could instant proc, and I would immediately trade the 12% damage buff for that kind of utility as I use Dark Flare constantly in both pvp and pve, but let's look at templar history.

Res times are too fast - ZOS negates an entire templar passive.
Templars lack speed buff - reduce major expedition buff by 10% so templars aren't left behind too much.
BoL too strong - rather than modify cost, healing done per player, or a debuff that'd prevent a player from receiving too many heals, ZOS cut off a quarter of the ability.
Purifying Ritual negating projectiles - even though that's the class' identity, let's remove it's only decent defense.
Charge is still broken - let's make it dodgeable to discourage even more people from using it and not even address the GCD or the persistent bugs.
Eclipse is still being used - make it even more worthless.

I can link all the other threads out there with great ideas on renovating templar class skills and then refer you to the patch notes where all those ideas were ignored. ZOS hears that 1 thing templars have is overpowered and they take the easiest way out every. single. time. I'll take my buffs where I can get them, because they're rare and hardly work in our favor.

timidobserver · February 2016

I am desensitized to Templar nerfs now, so go ahead and nerf it @wrolag_bal.

Sempars · February 2016

Yes please nerf Dark flare cause having a cast time spell that does good damage is bad bad bad!!!!!! BADDDDDD >_>

Ra'Shtar · February 2016

Really!? god this is horrendous this ability is not even close to OP, there is skill that hits harder than Dark Flare and its called Crystal Fragments why don't you go make a thread asking for a nerf on that one?