Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I think that maily ppl running 24 slot grps are complaining about this set is all zos should take from this topic. It´s pretty spot on.

Yeah, screw all those guys grouping up in a AvAvA mmo. They are the enemy.

Hey, I hear those 24-man groups loved 1.5 dynamic ulti and mechanics that didn't automatically favor zergs. We should all be against that than, cuz screw 24-mans

Ummmm.....1.5 had Hard AOE Caps with full damage mitigation past 5 people...and Dynamic Ulti most certainly was used by zergs just fine....In fact I can't think of any mechanic that didn't favor zergs in 1.5

Dynamic ulti was an insane Zerg buster which you would know if you, you know, ever did group content in this game!

Dynamic ult meant the more of them the more ult for you, and less of you the less ult they could generate! Built in advantage to small numbers. It's staring you right in the face!

You could only hit 6 people at a time though... With Purge being how it is you really didn't get an advantage since the main benefit of Dynamic Ult was Dot when they critted which was where ult came from which were cured by Purge. Plus any imaginary advantage you think you might have as a small group against a large one with Dynamic Ult was completely thrown out the window with AOE caps being how they were.

Don't get me wrong..I liked Dynamic ult on my DK..and I agree if it was left in with the 1.6 AOE cap changes it would of been a boost to smaller groups probably...But in 1.5 it wasn't this magical mechanic that made Small Groups as good as Large Groups.

AOE based groups ruined numbers many many many times thier size with this mechanic. It's only recently that no matter how you spec, big numbers just grind you down.

There will always be zergs, but there should always be good underlying mechanics to give smaller numbers an advantage.... Huge burst go BOOM is not an example of a good mechanic.

Say what? It's only recently? As someone who's played in nothing but small groups since the beginning I can show you multiple videos that makes that statement false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wxqqe_ooMU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8jOEXT4TLg

Xsorus: "You're running more than 4 mano, that's not a small group. Anything you say and any videos you post are now defunct. Also, this one time, at band camp DAOC... "

No, I didn't find anything wrong with the numbers he was running; however I'm not sure on the point of his video; it was him vs a bunch of non stacking pugs... In the few instances that they clumped up it was really never more then 8 at most. He wasn't dealing basically with a large ballgroup. In fact you can do what was in that video quite easily today. When I get home I'll link a couple videos that show how 1.5 was when dealing with ball groups.

Man watching those videos makes me miss standard though

I see a certain Grand Overlord and some peasant costumes spamming healing springs just 22 seconds into the first video. Certainly not his full group, but how many people are there? The builds we used worked equally well against full on ball groups. The outcome was usually us dying in those fights, but that's attributed to better coordination and them having better self awareness than most of the pugs you see in the videos. AOE caps were not an issue back then, and we regularly wiped Brandon's raids with what you would consider small groups. You could do the same when orbs were a thing, or with coordinated bat bombs or ground oils. Just with ground oils alone, even a ball group, you could wipe them almost solo with an ulti and a couple of oil pours.

Huh what? AOE caps were most certainly an issue back then..don't kid yourself.

Ground Oils got nerfed before 1.5 as well if I recall.

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life. I have no fear of wiping, I love taking VE into bad situations, hard to win battles. My beef is that this turns many "hard to win" fights into No Wins. And that flat out sucks.

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I think you are the one who isn't understanding, he has stated several times that he, and a large number of our guild, think that its stupid that we have to stack up, however that's the game we have right now, the mechanics of the game force us to ball up. Its completely irrelevant to this discussion that it should be a noob mistake.

We are all for changing the game mechanically to spread people out but leaving core mechanics in the game that funnel players into one small area while adding insanely high levels of damage and effectively removing all mitigation doesn't make any sense. Its lazy development and yet another band aid fix.

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example: [snip] ...daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

[Edited to remove insulting commentary]

Derra wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Every game i´ve played had strong friendly aoe mechanics that encouraged stacking (to some degree) or just required it to focus dmg on one target with melee attacks or encouraged stacking to bunch up aoe power.

Yet most of them also had strong pbaoe /aoe skills that discouraged stacking up.

This creates interesting fights where movement and outmaneuvering your opponent were the signature of a good grp. That´s what made fighting fun and challenging - moving in close proximity offered benefits but also presented a risk which could be exploited.

Eso offers this aswell but counteracts it by offering hilarious dmg mitigation when stacking up with enough players. It a perversion of what i personally think interesting grp fights look like because in the perfect grp individual movementskill positioning and situational awareness is absolutely irrelevant.
In eso the signature of a good grp is installing a reticle addon and staying as close to the leader as the lag allows you too - WTF

Imho it´s perfect for super strong friendly pbaoe mechanics to be counterweighted by strong enemy pbaoe dmg.

I disagree about what makes a good ESO player. TKO stacked on crown great but they were never much good at all. But eh.

If you want to talk about risk reward for stacking, it is very high already..... Vs the right opponent. I have melted every single decent group at some point, caught in a bad position and disintegrated them. Most have done the same to me. The idea that you can stack in one place and heal and barrier is very wrong, you will absolutely die doing that.

That's why I feel these changes are ughhhh. Against anyone who knows how to play, once you engage in a fight it's over in seconds. Seconds. It's so hard to tank a proper bomb, which is why it's immensely satisfying to pull it off. Reducing mitigation to the point that this is impassible and upping damage like they are makes these fights a "who hit first" deal. This is on its face unappealing.

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; ... daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

This one time in DaoC...

[Edited to remove quoted content]

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; ...daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

The current con to stacking is that another guild now has an amazing target for a hard AOE bomb. These are not usually flat out tanked, you almost always melt if the other group gets a full hit in on you. To survive you have to kite. Throw out defensive ultis, try to gain distance and breathing room to set up your own bomb.

I'll put it out straight: if you stack and late me hit you I will kill you. 99/100 times.

Doesn't mean it's not a stupid meta but it forces awareness, self sustain, defensive maneuvering and counter hitting.

And again, yes, stacking is a bad mechanic that needed downsides. I maintain that replacing this with "he who hits first wins" is equally lazy and much worse.

Further. It reduces the ability of an organized group to take on large zergs. Because beating a Zerg takes maneuvering, sustain AND damage. Teamwork to keep formation so you're not surrounded, picked off and slaughtered. They kept the damage but removed mobility and sustain. This. Favors. Larger. Groups. Every time.

[Edited to remove quoted content]

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; even though one of your moron guildmates will post about about this one time at daoc thing despite the fact they're playing a game that is wanting to copy daoc and you and said moron guildmates post about going to CU which is aiming to be the new DAOC...but really daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

Then let's just change aoe caps rather than making a ton of terrible choices to avoid doing that

I would prefer AOE caps being changed over Vicious Death....

However they've already came out said "We're not changing AOE caps"

"Who hits first" is pretty much a perfect description for the upcoming patch. Prolonged, open field, Group V Group fights are rare now, but in the new update, they will cease to exist. Kinda sad really.

Zheg wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; even though one of your moron guildmates will post about about this one time at daoc thing despite the fact they're playing a game that is wanting to copy daoc and you and said moron guildmates post about going to CU which is aiming to be the new DAOC...but really daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

This one time in DaoC...

FFS ghost, if you're going to do it, do it right.

This one time at band camp DAOC...

I am bad, and I feel bad.

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

"Who hits first" is pretty much a perfect description for the upcoming patch. Prolonged, open field, Group V Group fights are rare now, but in the new update, they will cease to exist. Kinda sad really.

Prolonged open field group vs group fights will exist..You'll see spread on inc become more common.

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

With dynamic ulti there was always a way. Bats on bats on DKS and bats. I remember playing with very small Havoc groups that simply pumped out a ridiculous number of ultimates.

I think where people go wrong is that they want to take thier elite 4-8 man against an elite 20+ group and win. And I don't get why. When I led small man groups we had a very clear idea about weight categories. 4 of us could easily take on 10+ bad players. If we specced for big group fighting we could really do some damage (which we occasions did at big keep fights). But when we ran into No Mercy, DiE, Veni, etc, expectations changed. They were built better, coordinated better, understood game mechanics very well just like we did. We learned to not fight them head on, to mess with their back lines and healers and siege placements. And you know what? It worked. We used to lock down entire corridors. We made groups hate going through our area because we made thier life hell.

I don't understand the mindset that you should be able to take an elite small group vs an elite large group and reliably win. You're built for different things, you're in entirely separate categories. Honestly feels like people want to have their cake and eat it too: get to run small, bypass the effort it takes to run and coordinate an elite raid, but also have the game bend over backwards so you can blow them up super easy.

Fact is you can already do that. To 90% of the people of the game. People just seem to hate that there's players in the game as good as them, organized into larger groups than them, and demand the game change so they can blow them up too.

I have a few videos from the last month or so of us wiping 20+ person raids with 8-10 VE members. I could do this because our opponents weren't top class guilds. I can't do that to Rage, for example, and by me that is ok! I don't need the game to bend over backwards for me so that I can kill things. I'm fine with speccing right and building a group capable of taking on that sort of content.

@Lexxypwns

Of course I'll adapt next patch. But won't mean I'll like it. My guild will be shoehorned into EVEN MORE exact builds and set ups, and my style of lead can drastically change because they took away group mobility, group sustain and added insane burst options like vicious death, etc. They've basically ensured I can't go into enemy territory and stare down big numbers for an awesome fight because to win against bigger numbers open field or in thier own territory you need mobility and sustain. I don't relish pulling from the old Havoc playbook, hugging chokes and highly defensible positions for dear life.

I think you misunderstand

If I take an 8 man against "an elite" 20+ group I don't want the 20+ group to not only have a numbers advantage but also free mitigation just cause...I also don't think an 8 man should be able to go head to head with a 20 man group who knew what they were doing.

HOWEVER...

If you're stacked up like a bunch of morons..and my group bombs you..Then yes...You should die..at that point you're not an elite group..and you shouldn't be able to survive just cause ZOS decided you deserve free mitigation..You screwed up and should die like every other moron out there who does the same thing....

Basically if you make noob mistakes you should be punished for it by better groups who didn't make that mistake.

Stacking up to avoid AOE should be considered a Noob mistake.

Stacking isn't the moron thing to do, the games mechanics are freaking built around. PBAOE being super strong, heals, support skills, shields, etc all having a short range force groups closer. Game objectives funneling you into smaller and smaller areas force you closer.

I'll be the first to say stacking is stupid, but the game literally forces you into it. And now they're trying to back off the defensive benefits of stacking while drastically increasing the offensive benefits of stacking... Which is stupid and dumb and lazy. For the love of God, change game mechanics, change the things that make stacking so strong, change the way support and offensive abilities work to provide alternatives, change how you take objectives.

But no, too much work for ZoS. So now we have a game where pretty much every offensive and defensive ability encourages you to be in close proximity but damage is so freaking high in an frantic attempt to make stacking unappealing. What sort of lazy, shortsighted mess even is this??

Again you're not understanding...It SHOULD be the noob mistake..and after the patch it probably will be.

You should be punished for doing it...Stacking shouldn't be a Viable way to avoid AOE damage.

As for PBAE having super strong heals/support skills and shields..I think thats fine as well...along as it has a Con to go with it..and in this case AOE is the CON (or should be)

Again the only reason this stacking issue ever came to be was cause of AOE caps..without them it would of made Stacking not a viable tactic 100% of the time.

I agree it should be a noob mistake but as I said above, all defensive abilities force you into that stack.

I think you have the idea everyone loves to stack on crown but really it's just the most viable playstyle with how ZoS codes thier game. Id love variety of formations but that's not what I'm getting here. I'm getting too much incoming damage to stack but all my defensive options require a stack, all the game objectives want a stack.

I understand completely; I'm saying that without aoe caps being removed you need things like prox and vicious death to counter stupid *** like stackings free mitigation.

I'm going to use a daoc example; even though one of your moron guildmates will post about about this one time at daoc thing despite the fact they're playing a game that is wanting to copy daoc and you and said moron guildmates post about going to CU which is aiming to be the new DAOC...but really daoc is the best example to use because it got it correct on gameplay in so many ways.

The most powerful nukes in DAOC were bolts and pbae... Bolts basically could be blocked and such and had a long cool down which was there con; pbaes did a *** ton of damage but put you in harms way to be interrupted and damaged by melee targets. It also meant that stacking to bomb ran the risk of being aoed yourself... It was powerful but had cons associated with it.

Stacking in this game currently has no con associated with it.. This is why it's a viable tactic.

The current con to stacking is that another guild now has an amazing target for a hard AOE bomb. These are not usually flat out tanked, you almost always melt if the other group gets a full hit in on you. To survive you have to kite. Throw out defensive ultis, try to gain distance and breathing room to set up your own bomb.

I'll put it out straight: if you stack and late me hit you I will kill you. 99/100 times.

Doesn't mean it's not a stupid meta but it forces awareness, self sustain, defensive maneuvering and counter hitting.

And again, yes, stacking is a bad mechanic that needed downsides. I maintain that replacing this with "he who hits first wins" is equally lazy and much worse.

Further. It reduces the ability of an organized group to take on large zergs. Because beating a Zerg takes maneuvering, sustain AND damage. Teamwork to keep formation so you're not surrounded, picked off and slaughtered. They kept the damage but removed mobility and sustain. This. Favors. Larger. Groups. Every time.

He who hits first doesn't always win...But it should get a good chance at taking a large group out.

and while they removed mobility and sustain they added the ability to kill large portions of that zerg very quickly...

So you'll have to take that Zerg of yours and find a new tactic.

Yyou talk about it as if you automatically win in a smaller group. let us wait and see how it plays out because the last time people like yourself were screaming from the mountain top that proxy det was going to save your life because you had a zerg busting tool... well the zergs all got the proxy too.

Now lets extrapolate this out to the meta that is INC. Hypothetical you are 12v24: almost everyone will be rolling magicka so that means the big group will have 24 proxys to your 12 and if the fighting happens to go down in a choke or it becomes close quartered the big group will still be hitting for 100% -80% proxy dmg and have 12 more of them than the smaller group. Also, they will have roughly 2x as many VD sets.

I do not see the next patch making this better necessarily for the big groups in that regard, its just going to be *** gameplay. There is a reason ZOS took TTK DOWN from 1.6 to IC because there was so much QQ about people dying too fast. We are going back to the same thing and we already have the dmg mitigation via battlespirit.

I just hope after a short time of this *** gameplay that people realize it and we can make a change because this will not be good and they already did the lazy fix and slapped huge dmg mitigation via battle spirit on rather than addressing real problems so I am interested to see what they do next because this is not the fix the game needs.

Back to the original point 1.9 is going to be a nuclear arms race, the bigger groups have more firepower and will be achieving max dmg proxys and all of that a good bit of the time. I do not see this patch being fun for many people, even the people that ignorantly are cheering this on in the background.