wrecking blow needs attention
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Mojmir✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dual wield should get a swordbreaker passive, this would either dampen the damage or reflect/possible stun opponent.0 -
PhatGrimReaper✭✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »
Surprise attack - Hmmmm.... not quite in the same league
Crysrtal Fragments - Doesn't empower itself
Steel Tornado - agreed
Breath of Life - Nerfed next update
Barrier - gone next update
Dragon Leap - U Wut M8?.... it's an ulti
Snipe - seems fine
bombard - also seems fine, though with the purge/barrier nerf, it's going to be really strong
Every gap closer in the game - Only going to be worse in the next update
Do you need more?
Now, I like my WB as much as the next man, but you gotta admit it's unbalanced.Edited by PhatGrimReaper on February 16, 2016 2:32AMFat Grim Reaper - (m)Dragon Knight AR28
F G R Junior - Templar AR26
This One Had Name Changed - Nightblade AR19
Fat Grim Streaker - Sorcerer AR15
M12-GM - Guardians of the Twelve-GM - Crown Store Heroes - ETU
RÀGE - R.I.P1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
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@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster1 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭
@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.Edited by Essiaga on February 16, 2016 3:04AM1 -
CamBam370✭✭✭Javelin is not a dps ability , and wrecking blow taked time to even cast. So if you are good enough you can avoid it.0 -
dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »
Surprise attack
Crysrtal Fragments
Steel Tornado
Breath of Life
Barrier
Dragon Leap
Snipe
bombard
Every gap closer in the game
Do you need more?
is this a joke? not one of those moves does top dps while being cheap having hard cc and a buff all in one. and two are ults, which is completely off topic.
the question is: can you name a single target dps that is cheap, does top dps, has hard cc, and has a buff all in one... you just named a bunch of random skills and ults that are good including aoe and heals? GG
crystal fraggs is the only one thats even close to the criteria, but but its not immune to bash so you cant one button mash it.
surprise attack is also close but only in conjunction with abilities/stealth not completely on its own.
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Huggalump✭✭✭✭not to mention it's not fun to use. A charge melee range ability is boring for the WB spammer and WB is annoying for the WB receiver.
IMO, both snipe and WB should be made instant, and then rebalanced around that0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wrecking blow is so unbalanced that Templars and nightblades use it over jabs and surprise attack *grin*
There is a reason it's only used by dks and sorcs..https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
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@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.
@Essiaga
Jabs is definitely self-empowering, the closest enemy takes 140% the tooltip damage of the skill, which is an ever bigger empower percentage than the Wrecking Blow standardized buff.
Wrecking Blow misses a lot too, it doesn't have some advantage over Biting Jabs. As states, Jabs has an advantage over Wrecking Blow because you can at least hit with part of the ability even if you miss the beginning or the end. I have no idea why you're bringing Burning Light into this, I never used it in an argument. If you want to bring it up, though, by all means. It's yet another reason why Biting Jabs is on a different level compared to Wrecking Blow. You see any kind of extra damage bonus that Wrecking Blow gets from its passives? Maybe Heavy Weapons, I guess, but again, ***-for-tat, we can once again ignore Burning Light in the equation.
The knock back is not inferior as in many PvP situation the opponent doesn't have enough time to break free from it, meaning they can be hit but yet another CC right afterward. And, as previously mentioned, the knockback is being replaced by a snare, which synergizes perfectly with the skill by making it harder for the opponent to avoid/escape.
The knockback being on the last hit is once again simply on par with Wrecking Blow, as Wrecking Blow only does its damage, CC, and empower on the last (and only) hit.
Jabs costs resources instantly specifically because it's an AoE, that's how all AoE works. So this doesn't count as a point against Wrecking Blow because the skills are in entirely different categories when it comes to the timing of resource expenditure. If Jabs was single target then it would be different, but the whole "can hit up to 60 targets" thing is kind of a good tradeoff.
Biting Jabs absolutely cannot be interrupted, I have no idea where you're getting this information. If you mean "someone can CC you while you're using Biting Jabs", well, someone can CC you while you're using Wrecking Blow, too. This is the most false.
Wrecking Blow is not an AoE, you can't move out of the area of it. And while I need to test it, I'm pretty sure you lose resources as long as the cast goes off, meaning that when someone is dodging it you still waste the stamina. But, going back to the actual AoE ability, Biting Jabs, as previously mentioned, can't be canceled specifically because it's an AoE. This is basically just rehashing your previous point. Doubling up is cheating! Very naughty.
WB has a shorter cast time, but people don't stand still hitting each other with WB and BJ at the same time. Biting Jabs can be started before you get in range of the target, meaning you can hit them with the CC right away before they even have a chance to start charging Wrecking Blow. Either way it's a bit of a silly comparison, though, for the same reason you wouldn't compare Crystal Blast with Wrecking Blow. One is ranged, one is melee, they are totally different categories of attacks.
You already covered that Wrecking Blow grants an empower, don't make me mention doubling again! Also, you could argue that the 8 seconds of flat crit bonus is better than a once-only empower. If you crit more on your attacks in those 8 seconds then you're going to be doing more damage (depending on build, of course) than 8 self-empowered Wrecking Blows, and all without being shoehorned into casting more Wrecking Blow.
I would not rank Wrecking Blow over Biting Jabs except only possibly in single-target PvP functionality, but even that is up in the air, and most stamplars would agree, given that they all seem to use Biting Jabs.
You're right about the damage, though, assuming that you are only hitting one person and not utilizing the AoE in any capacity. In which case you would be wrong by an order of magnitude. Which is once again why I wouldn't compare the two skills. They are different categories of ability entirely.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster1 -
Xeniph✭✭✭✭✭Wrecking blow is so unbalanced that Templars and nightblades use it over jabs and surprise attack *grin*
There is a reason it's only used by dks and sorcs..
Oh I dunno, it's quite a bit more effective from stealth than SA. But that's what I had to come up with for everyone slotting Radiant and being immune to stun.
Take that KB from stealth you Radiant users
Here since Beta.
Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.1 -
Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Obligatory QQ engaged.
Seriously this coming from the spin-to-win master who only wants AOE caps removed to make his spin-to-win even more win ?
Just stop posting just [to hawt for ZOS] stop it. You have no idea what balancing is just stop.
Now as for WB I think it just needs a much shorter range or 2 meters or even a single target and a cast time of 2 seconds that's it. No alter to damage or cost just shorter range and longer cast time will still hit hard just wont be as easy as it is now.0 -
RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭In my opinion (who isn't absolute), biting jab has two major problem : a range one (in pvp you often don't touch your enemies even if they are in range, it's probably a desynchronization bug) and the interrupt (I don't know if it's intended, but poisonous arrow/crushing shock/bash often stop my biting jabs, as all channel). As a result, on my magplar I don't use sweep, I use spear shard (less damage but far more reliant, better CC, bypass blocking, better range…). But on my stamplar...0 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
This. You can't touch wrecking blow until you fix class balance and provide other viable options. This is also my stance on hardened ward.0 -
pfalzer✭✭Well first off lag is never a reason to nerf anything bc all of us experience lag differently. ie i play from Germany and i experience little to no lag on NA servers. Nullpoint
Second as stated in previous WB threads. Whenever any class swarms you and spam a skill you are going to die. So more than hitting is not going to make the CC any longer or the time spent on the ground any longer. Nullpoint
Third how much stamina as a magicka user do you have. What is your physical resistance. Take a screenshot of your build and stats so we can see what you are working with or not. If you do not have enough stamina you will not survive WB or any other myriad of possible CC's. I could fossilize you only. And deplete your stamina bc more than likely you will be holding block as well. If you have no stamina, no gear, no cp, no skills, and no potions to help mitigate your susceptibilties to CC or stamina mitigation. It wont matter what skill i have. As long as i have 4k weapon damage, some CC to make waste stamina or slow you down i could kill you with 7k daggers. And we would be having a discussion about DW line instead. I am a casual pvper and i can shrug off WB as long as i have stamina and follow the other hints everyone has given in this thread and threads before. You may have to make a sacrifice or balance to your build or playstyle. Thats life.Edited by pfalzer on February 16, 2016 8:05AM0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Obligatory QQ engaged.
Seriously this coming from the spin-to-win master who only wants AOE caps removed to make his spin-to-win even more win ?
Just stop posting just [to hawt for ZOS] stop it. You have no idea what balancing is just stop.
Now as for WB I think it just needs a much shorter range or 2 meters or even a single target and a cast time of 2 seconds that's it. No alter to damage or cost just shorter range and longer cast time will still hit hard just wont be as easy as it is now.
lol2 -
Tdroid✭✭✭I can agree with the "Empower" buff being a tad too much on Wrecking Blow, but making it interruptable by soft CC? There was a time when that was the case and that was when Wrecking Blow was a completely useless skill in PvP. Simply put, because it is in melee range, it is always in the range of a bash. Skills like Crystal Frags and Snipe are interruptable because they are ranged abilities.
For my part, I'd say keep Dizzying Swings as the slow morph, while make Wrecking Blow hit less hard(say, comparable damage to Surprise Attack) and give it a different CC or debuff, but also make it instant cast.0 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah surprise attack is so much more powerful:
- combined with animation canceling it does way more DPS than WB
- it is major fracture debuff
- it is a CC as well
-and it bufs up your stats passively while slotted
Puncture:
- costs 30% less than Surprise Attack
- deals 20% less damage than Surprise Attack
- applies Major Fracture debuff
- can be morphed to apply Major Breach debuff
- can be morphed to apply Minor Resolve buff
- Master Sword allows it to heal for 2k
Yet no one calls it out for being OP.
Puncture is available to everyone unlike Surprise Attack. It is also only usable with a shield equipped and thus will never get nowhere near the potential damage of Surprise Attack on a dual wield bar.dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »puncturdylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »
ok lets compare
one has CC one dosent.
thats a huge difference. if someone does nothing but suprise attack you lol unless they start using other abilities
In combination with Cloak then Surprise Attack can be used as a powerful CC.
It add Major Fracture.
It bestows Major Ward and Major Resolve on user for atleast 4 seconds.
It is the highest DPS stamina ability in the game.
It bestows passive crit on the user when slotted.
ok i concede. there is one comparable move that only stamblades have access too. how about another comparable
Problem is if you nerf Wrecking Blow then Stamsorcs will be even more ***, and we don't need to penalize them further.
Feel free to champion the crusade of nerfing Wrecking Blow, but then you also have to adress that issue atleast. Stam DKs I couldn't give less of a *** about, they will manage, but Stamsorcs are going to feel the pain.
the fact that there is a build that relies on an op move is a terrible argument not to balance. Im not even saying it needs a nerf. but if its not nerfed then they need to add more insane moves which are cheap that give high direct damage with cc and buffs so there is more diversity. BUT i would rather a nerf then more stupidly op moves. imagine they made dark flare half the cost and made it unbashable so templars could just stand in one spot and spam it does that sound fun or just stupid.dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »Imagine they made dark flare half the cost and made it unbashable so templars could just stand in one spot and spam it does that sound fun or just stupid.
It will still be dodgeable easily and more : reflectable
Stamsorc really need a stamina based attack (and a powerful one, let's be honest thundering presence is fun with atro + steel tornado for two second, but not for nearly all other situation), actually they only can rely to WB spam or snipe spam (and bombard/tornado in aoe). WB is powerful especially with the bugs, so ZOS need to change both WB and stamsorc situation.
I disagree. Stamina Sorcerers do not need a stamina based attack to spam, they need more stamina viability for their utility skills. One class should never have everything and Magicka Sorcerers have a lot of stuff going for them, just need to translate some of those skills into stamina aswell, and I am not talking about an instant proc stamina Crystal Shard here, that would be OP. But another morph suited for stamina that still has the cast time? Maybe.
Master_Kas wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »
ok lets compare
one has CC one dosent.
thats a huge difference. if someone does nothing but suprise attack you lol unless they start using other abilities
In combination with Cloak then Surprise Attack can be used as a powerful CC.
It add Major Fracture.
It bestows Major Ward and Major Resolve on user for atleast 4 seconds.
It is the highest DPS stamina ability in the game.
It bestows passive crit on the user when slotted.
If someone does nothing but Wrecking Blow you then LOL unless they use anything for defense, I completely annihilate people only spamming Wrecking Blow unless they catch my outnumbered or off guard.
Correction: surprise attack doesn't give crit. Thats a assissination skilline passive, while surprise attack in the shadow skilline.
Now carry on with your discussion ^^
Sorry my bad.
+3% Max Health then...
Because ZOS forbid that NBs slot an ability without giving them kind of passive stat increase, kind of like Magic Sorcerers. :P0 -
EsoRecon✭✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »before all you spammers come on and start QQ actually think for a moment about balance and about the quality of other moves that do DD, hard CC and buff all in one.
wb does too much. cheap, high damage, makes other attacks stronger, cc. seriously no wonder half of cryodiil just spamms this. compare it other single target cc that does damage. javelin does HALF DAMAGE FOR TWICE THE COST.
im not saying nerf it into the ground but for god sake one factor needs to change, cost more, make it bashable again, remove cc, lower damage, I really dont care but any one move should not have EVERYTHING you want and be cheap enough to not ever need to use another ability.
I know I know LTP, stop QQ, bla bla bla, dont bother writing that we get it wb is fine nerf templars.
I spam wrecking blow because I have nothing else. Welcome to Stam Sorc...Xbox One [ NA ]
Gamertag - Zyzz II Legacy
Stam Sorc & Stam NB PvP
(I'm Just Here To 1vX)0 -
NecrosIX✭✭I get the impression that, for balance, empower is to be bestowed by a relatively weaker damage/support ability so that one may use it on a high damage ability. But wrecking blow is one of the (if not THE) highest damage, non ultimate, in the game. Why the discrepancy?1
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Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree with the "Empower" buff being a tad too much on Wrecking Blow, but making it interruptable by soft CC? There was a time when that was the case and that was when Wrecking Blow was a completely useless skill in PvP. Simply put, because it is in melee range, it is always in the range of a bash. Skills like Crystal Frags and Snipe are interruptable because they are ranged abilities.
For my part, I'd say keep Dizzying Swings as the slow morph, while make Wrecking Blow hit less hard(say, comparable damage to Surprise Attack) and give it a different CC or debuff, but also make it instant cast.
Sounds like puncturing sweeps/biting Jabs
(btw. bash is a kind of hardcounter for templars...even BoL can be interrupted by bashing -.- )Noobplar0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the dizzying swing suggestions.
- Remove cast time
- Remove CC
- Halve damage
- Maybe give it a different animation considering it looks like you're swinging a golf club and they aren't being flung back any more
This would most likely cause quite a few people to drop Wrecking Blow. At the moment you can fix its outstanding bugs, but you can't nerf it because of the certain classes who rely on it.0 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭
@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.
@Essiaga
Jabs is definitely self-empowering, the closest enemy takes 140% the tooltip damage of the skill, which is an ever bigger empower percentage than the Wrecking Blow standardized buff.
Wrecking Blow misses a lot too, it doesn't have some advantage over Biting Jabs. As states, Jabs has an advantage over Wrecking Blow because you can at least hit with part of the ability even if you miss the beginning or the end. I have no idea why you're bringing Burning Light into this, I never used it in an argument. If you want to bring it up, though, by all means. It's yet another reason why Biting Jabs is on a different level compared to Wrecking Blow. You see any kind of extra damage bonus that Wrecking Blow gets from its passives? Maybe Heavy Weapons, I guess, but again, ***-for-tat, we can once again ignore Burning Light in the equation.
The knock back is not inferior as in many PvP situation the opponent doesn't have enough time to break free from it, meaning they can be hit but yet another CC right afterward. And, as previously mentioned, the knockback is being replaced by a snare, which synergizes perfectly with the skill by making it harder for the opponent to avoid/escape.
The knockback being on the last hit is once again simply on par with Wrecking Blow, as Wrecking Blow only does its damage, CC, and empower on the last (and only) hit.
Jabs costs resources instantly specifically because it's an AoE, that's how all AoE works. So this doesn't count as a point against Wrecking Blow because the skills are in entirely different categories when it comes to the timing of resource expenditure. If Jabs was single target then it would be different, but the whole "can hit up to 60 targets" thing is kind of a good tradeoff.
Biting Jabs absolutely cannot be interrupted, I have no idea where you're getting this information. If you mean "someone can CC you while you're using Biting Jabs", well, someone can CC you while you're using Wrecking Blow, too. This is the most false.
Wrecking Blow is not an AoE, you can't move out of the area of it. And while I need to test it, I'm pretty sure you lose resources as long as the cast goes off, meaning that when someone is dodging it you still waste the stamina. But, going back to the actual AoE ability, Biting Jabs, as previously mentioned, can't be canceled specifically because it's an AoE. This is basically just rehashing your previous point. Doubling up is cheating! Very naughty.
WB has a shorter cast time, but people don't stand still hitting each other with WB and BJ at the same time. Biting Jabs can be started before you get in range of the target, meaning you can hit them with the CC right away before they even have a chance to start charging Wrecking Blow. Either way it's a bit of a silly comparison, though, for the same reason you wouldn't compare Crystal Blast with Wrecking Blow. One is ranged, one is melee, they are totally different categories of attacks.
You already covered that Wrecking Blow grants an empower, don't make me mention doubling again! Also, you could argue that the 8 seconds of flat crit bonus is better than a once-only empower. If you crit more on your attacks in those 8 seconds then you're going to be doing more damage (depending on build, of course) than 8 self-empowered Wrecking Blows, and all without being shoehorned into casting more Wrecking Blow.
I would not rank Wrecking Blow over Biting Jabs except only possibly in single-target PvP functionality, but even that is up in the air, and most stamplars would agree, given that they all seem to use Biting Jabs.
You're right about the damage, though, assuming that you are only hitting one person and not utilizing the AoE in any capacity. In which case you would be wrong by an order of magnitude. Which is once again why I wouldn't compare the two skills. They are different categories of ability entirely.
Extra damage on closest target is there. They could of worded like this "closest enemy gets hit with X damage will others enemies take x% less" and the statement would be exactly the same. Its not empowered. It doesn't get better with the next attack. Regardless all abilities have variation to them. Hard cast CFrags can be compared to Dark Flare and WB but they're not the same. Solor Barrage can be compared to Inhale, Impulse, Drain, even Steel Tornado ... but not the same. Rapid Strikes compared to Jabs ... not the same. There isn't a real 1 for 1 comparison. So a similar mechanic is the best we can do.
An I never set out to argue skills 1v1 ... I could point out criting on x/4 smaller damage attacks means smaller crit damage, or that crit doesn't work on shield, nor does Burning passive ... the skills have their weaknesses or are weak to certain situations. Single target wise WB > Jabs. AOE wise Steel Tornado>Jabs? It all depends on the situation but imo Jabs is lack luster and doesn't replace other skills but if the did then Templar would be OP. Its hard to balance these out in pvp when the devs don't seem to consider skill viability in PVP any longer.It's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
It is melee range, has a channel (not the same but similar), can be avoided after casting. That was your criteria.
The issue is the lack of viable options across those classes and how annoying it is to be played ping pong with by 3 or so WB spammers. I've rarely been hit by multiple snipes, dark flares, or even CF at the same time. Its mostly gap closers, and melee ranged attacks (sneak attack, WB, Steel tornado.) I don't begrudge people for using the best tool you got for the situation. It's just the only or best options in most cases. Couple it with Spin to Win and stam-builds seem to lack diversity. Which is why I rolled out a long time ago. Magicka builds feel different. Stam feels like a stam build regardless of Class imo.
I hope the QQ on WB gets all stam builds more options, but unless WB gets address when those options come it will still over power them as their primary attack or those builds (like the nb) will become the new fotm. Removing 1 of the CC would be my suggestion as its the most frustrating point. I think everyone hates the knock down but its also what's special about the skill.
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
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QQ only works on ridiculous requestsI hope the QQ on WB gets all stam builds more options
- Stam Sorcs have rightly QQ'd trying to get their crappy class buffed for ages. Nothing happened.
- Templars have justifiably QQ'd to get toppling charge fixed. Granted ZOS tried, but still not fixed.
- Some random dude has a breakdown and says meteors should not be reflected. NEXT PATCH BOYS.
Edited by Alucardo on February 16, 2016 1:33PM0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My opinion this is something that should be way way way on the back burner. They will never make everything 100% balanced and perfect. So instead of messing with skill lines and spending every development dollar on nerfing skills for PVP maybe lets get some new content for a change. What they need to be focused on is not ruining yet another skill line but making templars for example viable again.
I watched the ESO live episode this week guy saying he wants all characters to be all things. Why? Why not make each have a role they excel at like all other games? Seriously need some new direction there at ESO. I dont know about replacing this guy on the show but his ideas are horrible. How can you make all classes be all roles at once? How do you balance something like that?
I get he doesnt want eso to be like other mmos. Thing is people like certain things in their mmos. This game already doesnt have many things other mmos do. Now in order to let all classes be all things there is no choice but to dumb down the game to accommodate this strategy.
For once please ESO stop listening to people screaming for nerfs. If you try some things other mmos do maybe this game could have the populations of those games.0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wrecking blow is so unbalanced that Templars and nightblades use it over jabs and surprise attack *grin*
There is a reason it's only used by dks and sorcs..
Really? I haven't seen a stamplar jabbing anything live in PvP in like 3 months. Maybe once in a YouTube video...
Than there's NB's. They rather Ambush x10 over using Surprise Attack. Shame really, because SA is such a nice skill, other classes would kill for it.
I definitely get the stam DK + sorc dilemma tho. Regardless of what stamina skill you slot for dmg(Reverting Bash, Snipe or Wrecking Blow), you're accused of being a spamming cheating fotm cheese doodle. What to do
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Essiaga✭✭✭✭
@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.
@Essiaga
Jabs is definitely self-empowering, the closest enemy takes 140% the tooltip damage of the skill, which is an ever bigger empower percentage than the Wrecking Blow standardized buff.
Wrecking Blow misses a lot too, it doesn't have some advantage over Biting Jabs. As states, Jabs has an advantage over Wrecking Blow because you can at least hit with part of the ability even if you miss the beginning or the end. I have no idea why you're bringing Burning Light into this, I never used it in an argument. If you want to bring it up, though, by all means. It's yet another reason why Biting Jabs is on a different level compared to Wrecking Blow. You see any kind of extra damage bonus that Wrecking Blow gets from its passives? Maybe Heavy Weapons, I guess, but again, ***-for-tat, we can once again ignore Burning Light in the equation.
The knock back is not inferior as in many PvP situation the opponent doesn't have enough time to break free from it, meaning they can be hit but yet another CC right afterward. And, as previously mentioned, the knockback is being replaced by a snare, which synergizes perfectly with the skill by making it harder for the opponent to avoid/escape.
The knockback being on the last hit is once again simply on par with Wrecking Blow, as Wrecking Blow only does its damage, CC, and empower on the last (and only) hit.
Jabs costs resources instantly specifically because it's an AoE, that's how all AoE works. So this doesn't count as a point against Wrecking Blow because the skills are in entirely different categories when it comes to the timing of resource expenditure. If Jabs was single target then it would be different, but the whole "can hit up to 60 targets" thing is kind of a good tradeoff.
Biting Jabs absolutely cannot be interrupted, I have no idea where you're getting this information. If you mean "someone can CC you while you're using Biting Jabs", well, someone can CC you while you're using Wrecking Blow, too. This is the most false.
Wrecking Blow is not an AoE, you can't move out of the area of it. And while I need to test it, I'm pretty sure you lose resources as long as the cast goes off, meaning that when someone is dodging it you still waste the stamina. But, going back to the actual AoE ability, Biting Jabs, as previously mentioned, can't be canceled specifically because it's an AoE. This is basically just rehashing your previous point. Doubling up is cheating! Very naughty.
WB has a shorter cast time, but people don't stand still hitting each other with WB and BJ at the same time. Biting Jabs can be started before you get in range of the target, meaning you can hit them with the CC right away before they even have a chance to start charging Wrecking Blow. Either way it's a bit of a silly comparison, though, for the same reason you wouldn't compare Crystal Blast with Wrecking Blow. One is ranged, one is melee, they are totally different categories of attacks.
You already covered that Wrecking Blow grants an empower, don't make me mention doubling again! Also, you could argue that the 8 seconds of flat crit bonus is better than a once-only empower. If you crit more on your attacks in those 8 seconds then you're going to be doing more damage (depending on build, of course) than 8 self-empowered Wrecking Blows, and all without being shoehorned into casting more Wrecking Blow.
I would not rank Wrecking Blow over Biting Jabs except only possibly in single-target PvP functionality, but even that is up in the air, and most stamplars would agree, given that they all seem to use Biting Jabs.
You're right about the damage, though, assuming that you are only hitting one person and not utilizing the AoE in any capacity. In which case you would be wrong by an order of magnitude. Which is once again why I wouldn't compare the two skills. They are different categories of ability entirely.
Extra damage on closest target is there. They could of worded like this "closest enemy gets hit with X damage will others enemies take x% less" and the statement would be exactly the same. Its not empowered. It doesn't get better with the next attack. Regardless all abilities have variation to them. Hard cast CFrags can be compared to Dark Flare and WB but they're not the same. Solor Barrage can be compared to Inhale, Impulse, Drain, even Steel Tornado ... but not the same. Rapid Strikes compared to Jabs ... not the same. There isn't a real 1 for 1 comparison. So a similar mechanic is the best we can do.
An I never set out to argue skills 1v1 ... I could point out criting on x/4 smaller damage attacks means smaller crit damage, or that crit doesn't work on shield, nor does Burning passive ... the skills have their weaknesses or are weak to certain situations. Single target wise WB > Jabs. AOE wise Steel Tornado>Jabs? It all depends on the situation but imo Jabs is lack luster and doesn't replace other skills but if the did then Templar would be OP. Its hard to balance these out in pvp when the devs don't seem to consider skill viability in PVP any longer.It's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
It is melee range, has a channel (not the same but similar), can be avoided after casting. That was your criteria.
The issue is the lack of viable options across those classes and how annoying it is to be played ping pong with by 3 or so WB spammers. I've rarely been hit by multiple snipes, dark flares, or even CF at the same time. Its mostly gap closers, and melee ranged attacks (sneak attack, WB, Steel tornado.) I don't begrudge people for using the best tool you got for the situation. It's just the only or best options in most cases. Couple it with Spin to Win and stam-builds seem to lack diversity. Which is why I rolled out a long time ago. Magicka builds feel different. Stam feels like a stam build regardless of Class imo.
I hope the QQ on WB gets all stam builds more options, but unless WB gets address when those options come it will still over power them as their primary attack or those builds (like the nb) will become the new fotm. Removing 1 of the CC would be my suggestion as its the most frustrating point. I think everyone hates the knock down but its also what's special about the skill.
Just to point out again ... one of the major issues with WB is the meta of DPS is king.
All stam builds have this option. Magick a builds don't get a CF. We have Magicka Det which when used right is huge (OP), but it stinks that as a Templar your burst damage has to wait for level 7 (?) alliance, or level 10 mages/fighter guild to get a viable ultimate, while stam build have it like level 8(?).
If WB were doing 7-8k and sneak attack 4-5k with resource management issues etc then WB would be a little less annoying to all. WB might be fine once TG goes live since Hardy was added to CP ... but it won't mean that WB was fixed or balanced. it'll mean that Stam builds are screwed.
Non-CP campaign ... seems like a better and better concept.0 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why should WB have a greater radius than Reverse Slash or Executioner? It has a 2m greater range which is to far away IMO to be able to attack another player with a melee weapon. Any melee ability that requires a contact hit while the weapon is still in the players hand shouldn't be greater than 5m max. It's melee for pete's sake, you supposed to be close to use it. If you want an ability that you can hit from 7m away, it should be ranged....NA Server - Kildair1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
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@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.
@Essiaga
Jabs is definitely self-empowering, the closest enemy takes 140% the tooltip damage of the skill, which is an ever bigger empower percentage than the Wrecking Blow standardized buff.
Wrecking Blow misses a lot too, it doesn't have some advantage over Biting Jabs. As states, Jabs has an advantage over Wrecking Blow because you can at least hit with part of the ability even if you miss the beginning or the end. I have no idea why you're bringing Burning Light into this, I never used it in an argument. If you want to bring it up, though, by all means. It's yet another reason why Biting Jabs is on a different level compared to Wrecking Blow. You see any kind of extra damage bonus that Wrecking Blow gets from its passives? Maybe Heavy Weapons, I guess, but again, ***-for-tat, we can once again ignore Burning Light in the equation.
The knock back is not inferior as in many PvP situation the opponent doesn't have enough time to break free from it, meaning they can be hit but yet another CC right afterward. And, as previously mentioned, the knockback is being replaced by a snare, which synergizes perfectly with the skill by making it harder for the opponent to avoid/escape.
The knockback being on the last hit is once again simply on par with Wrecking Blow, as Wrecking Blow only does its damage, CC, and empower on the last (and only) hit.
Jabs costs resources instantly specifically because it's an AoE, that's how all AoE works. So this doesn't count as a point against Wrecking Blow because the skills are in entirely different categories when it comes to the timing of resource expenditure. If Jabs was single target then it would be different, but the whole "can hit up to 60 targets" thing is kind of a good tradeoff.
Biting Jabs absolutely cannot be interrupted, I have no idea where you're getting this information. If you mean "someone can CC you while you're using Biting Jabs", well, someone can CC you while you're using Wrecking Blow, too. This is the most false.
Wrecking Blow is not an AoE, you can't move out of the area of it. And while I need to test it, I'm pretty sure you lose resources as long as the cast goes off, meaning that when someone is dodging it you still waste the stamina. But, going back to the actual AoE ability, Biting Jabs, as previously mentioned, can't be canceled specifically because it's an AoE. This is basically just rehashing your previous point. Doubling up is cheating! Very naughty.
WB has a shorter cast time, but people don't stand still hitting each other with WB and BJ at the same time. Biting Jabs can be started before you get in range of the target, meaning you can hit them with the CC right away before they even have a chance to start charging Wrecking Blow. Either way it's a bit of a silly comparison, though, for the same reason you wouldn't compare Crystal Blast with Wrecking Blow. One is ranged, one is melee, they are totally different categories of attacks.
You already covered that Wrecking Blow grants an empower, don't make me mention doubling again! Also, you could argue that the 8 seconds of flat crit bonus is better than a once-only empower. If you crit more on your attacks in those 8 seconds then you're going to be doing more damage (depending on build, of course) than 8 self-empowered Wrecking Blows, and all without being shoehorned into casting more Wrecking Blow.
I would not rank Wrecking Blow over Biting Jabs except only possibly in single-target PvP functionality, but even that is up in the air, and most stamplars would agree, given that they all seem to use Biting Jabs.
You're right about the damage, though, assuming that you are only hitting one person and not utilizing the AoE in any capacity. In which case you would be wrong by an order of magnitude. Which is once again why I wouldn't compare the two skills. They are different categories of ability entirely.
Extra damage on closest target is there. They could of worded like this "closest enemy gets hit with X damage will others enemies take x% less" and the statement would be exactly the same. Its not empowered. It doesn't get better with the next attack. Regardless all abilities have variation to them. Hard cast CFrags can be compared to Dark Flare and WB but they're not the same. Solor Barrage can be compared to Inhale, Impulse, Drain, even Steel Tornado ... but not the same. Rapid Strikes compared to Jabs ... not the same. There isn't a real 1 for 1 comparison. So a similar mechanic is the best we can do.
An I never set out to argue skills 1v1 ... I could point out criting on x/4 smaller damage attacks means smaller crit damage, or that crit doesn't work on shield, nor does Burning passive ... the skills have their weaknesses or are weak to certain situations. Single target wise WB > Jabs. AOE wise Steel Tornado>Jabs? It all depends on the situation but imo Jabs is lack luster and doesn't replace other skills but if the did then Templar would be OP. Its hard to balance these out in pvp when the devs don't seem to consider skill viability in PVP any longer.It's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
It is melee range, has a channel (not the same but similar), can be avoided after casting. That was your criteria.
The issue is the lack of viable options across those classes and how annoying it is to be played ping pong with by 3 or so WB spammers. I've rarely been hit by multiple snipes, dark flares, or even CF at the same time. Its mostly gap closers, and melee ranged attacks (sneak attack, WB, Steel tornado.) I don't begrudge people for using the best tool you got for the situation. It's just the only or best options in most cases. Couple it with Spin to Win and stam-builds seem to lack diversity. Which is why I rolled out a long time ago. Magicka builds feel different. Stam feels like a stam build regardless of Class imo.
I hope the QQ on WB gets all stam builds more options, but unless WB gets address when those options come it will still over power them as their primary attack or those builds (like the nb) will become the new fotm. Removing 1 of the CC would be my suggestion as its the most frustrating point. I think everyone hates the knock down but its also what's special about the skill.
They could also word the empower buff that you're doing 20% less damage unless you have it and full damage if you do, that argument is nonsense. :-p 40% extra damage on one target is nothing to laugh about.
You say you don't want to compare skills 1v1, but isn't that literally what we've been doing this whole time? I asked to find a skill comparable to Wrecking Blow, the implication being that it's just like Wrecking Blow but performs worse. We've since then determined that there is no skill comparable to Wrecking Blow (an AoE channel is nowhere near close to single-target cast time) and the one you did suggest, Biting Jabs, is better than Wrecking Blow by most of the criteria.
I'm all for opening up more stamina options, but there is no need to nerf Wrecking Blow before or after said stamina options open up, based on your own criteria. You say that it will overpower in-class stamina choices, but both Surprise Attack and Biting Jabs are used constantly in PvP as the main stamina damage dealer, not Wrecking Blow. So very clearly it doesn't need to be "addressed", it's perfect where it's at, CC and all.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster1 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭
@EssiagaIt's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
Jabs has a attacks and each of them can be avoid, do less damage, don't empower, knockdown, or stun. Also with Gap closer everything is in melee range, not to mention there's plenty of ranged options for interrupt. No cast time/channel should be uninterrupted. Its a slap in the face to the Templar. Does anyone else suffer a cast time/channel?
It's super powerful and can use a nerf when the time is right. There needs to be viable alternatives and even the Temp and DK stam morphs are lack luster.
This game is kinds of out of balance.
Actually, Biting Jabs is an AoE, provides CC, self-empowers against a single target, and gives Major Savagery, increasing crit for 8 seconds. It is not only not in the same category of abilities as Wrecking Blow, it is categorically better in every way except single-target damage (because, you know, it's an AoE). It also starts doing damage immediately and functions slightly more like a channel in this regard, unlike Wrecking Blow which is all-or-nothing. It's going to be even better in the TG patch because it's going to apply a snare instead of a knockback, making it much harder to avoid and synergizing well with its limitations. Good try, though, I can see why you might initially think they're similar.
Jabs is is not self empowering. Dark Flare does. Does Empower even effect AOEs?
Jabs also misses a lot and its passive Burning Light has a cool down to make sure it can't proct on every hit.
The knock back is inferior to knock down or stun, which WB has both.
Jabs Knock back requires the last hit meaning its not guaranteed if you have to block or dodge, etc.
Jab cost is removed from the touch of the button, regardless if its interrupted but the caster or someone moving out of AOE.
Also it can be interrupted by an enemy player where as WB can not.
WB cancels, sparing the cost if someone moves out of AOE.
WB also has a shorter cast time and will beat jabs to the punch. (See point on knock back not being guaranteed, and cost.)
WB also empowers Executioner for a hell of synergy.
WB damage is superior.
I would rank WB over Jabs and most stamplars do as well.
You're right about the snare though. Templars got something this update. woot.
@Essiaga
Jabs is definitely self-empowering, the closest enemy takes 140% the tooltip damage of the skill, which is an ever bigger empower percentage than the Wrecking Blow standardized buff.
Wrecking Blow misses a lot too, it doesn't have some advantage over Biting Jabs. As states, Jabs has an advantage over Wrecking Blow because you can at least hit with part of the ability even if you miss the beginning or the end. I have no idea why you're bringing Burning Light into this, I never used it in an argument. If you want to bring it up, though, by all means. It's yet another reason why Biting Jabs is on a different level compared to Wrecking Blow. You see any kind of extra damage bonus that Wrecking Blow gets from its passives? Maybe Heavy Weapons, I guess, but again, ***-for-tat, we can once again ignore Burning Light in the equation.
The knock back is not inferior as in many PvP situation the opponent doesn't have enough time to break free from it, meaning they can be hit but yet another CC right afterward. And, as previously mentioned, the knockback is being replaced by a snare, which synergizes perfectly with the skill by making it harder for the opponent to avoid/escape.
The knockback being on the last hit is once again simply on par with Wrecking Blow, as Wrecking Blow only does its damage, CC, and empower on the last (and only) hit.
Jabs costs resources instantly specifically because it's an AoE, that's how all AoE works. So this doesn't count as a point against Wrecking Blow because the skills are in entirely different categories when it comes to the timing of resource expenditure. If Jabs was single target then it would be different, but the whole "can hit up to 60 targets" thing is kind of a good tradeoff.
Biting Jabs absolutely cannot be interrupted, I have no idea where you're getting this information. If you mean "someone can CC you while you're using Biting Jabs", well, someone can CC you while you're using Wrecking Blow, too. This is the most false.
Wrecking Blow is not an AoE, you can't move out of the area of it. And while I need to test it, I'm pretty sure you lose resources as long as the cast goes off, meaning that when someone is dodging it you still waste the stamina. But, going back to the actual AoE ability, Biting Jabs, as previously mentioned, can't be canceled specifically because it's an AoE. This is basically just rehashing your previous point. Doubling up is cheating! Very naughty.
WB has a shorter cast time, but people don't stand still hitting each other with WB and BJ at the same time. Biting Jabs can be started before you get in range of the target, meaning you can hit them with the CC right away before they even have a chance to start charging Wrecking Blow. Either way it's a bit of a silly comparison, though, for the same reason you wouldn't compare Crystal Blast with Wrecking Blow. One is ranged, one is melee, they are totally different categories of attacks.
You already covered that Wrecking Blow grants an empower, don't make me mention doubling again! Also, you could argue that the 8 seconds of flat crit bonus is better than a once-only empower. If you crit more on your attacks in those 8 seconds then you're going to be doing more damage (depending on build, of course) than 8 self-empowered Wrecking Blows, and all without being shoehorned into casting more Wrecking Blow.
I would not rank Wrecking Blow over Biting Jabs except only possibly in single-target PvP functionality, but even that is up in the air, and most stamplars would agree, given that they all seem to use Biting Jabs.
You're right about the damage, though, assuming that you are only hitting one person and not utilizing the AoE in any capacity. In which case you would be wrong by an order of magnitude. Which is once again why I wouldn't compare the two skills. They are different categories of ability entirely.
Extra damage on closest target is there. They could of worded like this "closest enemy gets hit with X damage will others enemies take x% less" and the statement would be exactly the same. Its not empowered. It doesn't get better with the next attack. Regardless all abilities have variation to them. Hard cast CFrags can be compared to Dark Flare and WB but they're not the same. Solor Barrage can be compared to Inhale, Impulse, Drain, even Steel Tornado ... but not the same. Rapid Strikes compared to Jabs ... not the same. There isn't a real 1 for 1 comparison. So a similar mechanic is the best we can do.
An I never set out to argue skills 1v1 ... I could point out criting on x/4 smaller damage attacks means smaller crit damage, or that crit doesn't work on shield, nor does Burning passive ... the skills have their weaknesses or are weak to certain situations. Single target wise WB > Jabs. AOE wise Steel Tornado>Jabs? It all depends on the situation but imo Jabs is lack luster and doesn't replace other skills but if the did then Templar would be OP. Its hard to balance these out in pvp when the devs don't seem to consider skill viability in PVP any longer.It's melee range and avoidable even after the cast has already begun, that's the balance point. Show me some other moves that are melee range, have a wind up, and can be avoided after the cast, then we can talk.
It is melee range, has a channel (not the same but similar), can be avoided after casting. That was your criteria.
The issue is the lack of viable options across those classes and how annoying it is to be played ping pong with by 3 or so WB spammers. I've rarely been hit by multiple snipes, dark flares, or even CF at the same time. Its mostly gap closers, and melee ranged attacks (sneak attack, WB, Steel tornado.) I don't begrudge people for using the best tool you got for the situation. It's just the only or best options in most cases. Couple it with Spin to Win and stam-builds seem to lack diversity. Which is why I rolled out a long time ago. Magicka builds feel different. Stam feels like a stam build regardless of Class imo.
I hope the QQ on WB gets all stam builds more options, but unless WB gets address when those options come it will still over power them as their primary attack or those builds (like the nb) will become the new fotm. Removing 1 of the CC would be my suggestion as its the most frustrating point. I think everyone hates the knock down but its also what's special about the skill.
They could also word the empower buff that you're doing 20% less damage unless you have it and full damage if you do, that argument is nonsense. :-p 40% extra damage on one target is nothing to laugh about.
You say you don't want to compare skills 1v1, but isn't that literally what we've been doing this whole time? I asked to find a skill comparable to Wrecking Blow, the implication being that it's just like Wrecking Blow but performs worse. We've since then determined that there is no skill comparable to Wrecking Blow (an AoE channel is nowhere near close to single-target cast time) and the one you did suggest, Biting Jabs, is better than Wrecking Blow by most of the criteria.
I'm all for opening up more stamina options, but there is no need to nerf Wrecking Blow before or after said stamina options open up, based on your own criteria. You say that it will overpower in-class stamina choices, but both Surprise Attack and Biting Jabs are used constantly in PvP as the main stamina damage dealer, not Wrecking Blow. So very clearly it doesn't need to be "addressed", it's perfect where it's at, CC and all.
Nonsense? Your empowered argument is nonsense as the Empower buff is a static thing and not an abstract concept. You're trolling.
I pointed out a similar skill, as in the 'balance point' met what you called for. I wasn't trying to argue the balance point, though I did reply to your comparison with points both pro and con for my statements. Your argument seems to be WB has some limitations and is therefore is balanced then I don't think discussion is necessary.
I think it's very clear when looking into the future of things that nothing is very clear. Trust me I've had brain surgery. Also whats clear to me is that you enjoy WB and simply don't want it to get a nerf. Which doesn't bother me either way. Snowflakes and fingerprints and whatnot ..
WB shouldn't be addressed at this time (as we both agree) but for the quality of life for other players I think (as in my opinion which warrants no argument) the double CC should be addressed otherwise you'll have more post like this even if it does zero damage, as is the case with Mass Hysteria. People like to be in-charge of their character and WB takes that from them. Double hard CC suck and are frustrating for some people and not so much for others. Balance is find away to make the most people happy while still have unique and entertaining game play.
You may think the glass is half empty or half full. I think I'll finish my drink and go home.Edited by Essiaga on February 16, 2016 5:04PM0
