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Reason for no group damage meters?
SG_Celerrimus
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Out of curiosity, has ZOS ever given a reason as to why they don't ever allow people to make group damage tracking addons? It just feels off that these things are still not allowed for some reason.
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Didgerion✭✭✭✭✭
✭SG_Celerrimus wrote: »Out of curiosity, has ZOS ever given a reason as to why they don't ever allow people to make group damage tracking addons? It just feels off that these things are still not allowed for some reason.
Yes, the reason is to keep the player's DPS/HPS numbers private.
Edited by Didgerion on February 15, 2016 7:43PM2 -
remilafo✭✭✭✭because the carebears cried..
This is like the only mmo without triaining dummies or group dps tracking abilities..
Best part is, New raid with thieves guild.. Guilds that are aiming to be on the leaderboard WILL without question have DPS requirements.4 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭Technically they are allowed (FTC has a similar function) but only if people have the ability to keep their numbers private (opt out).1 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Technically they are allowed (FTC has a similar function) but only if people have the ability to keep their numbers private (opt out).
Yes, FTC DPS sharing works fairly well.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elijah_Crow wrote: »
But after the fact and with no situational context.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭
What's your point?because the carebears cried..
This is like the only mmo without triaining dummies or group dps tracking abilities..
Best part is, New raid with thieves guild.. Guilds that are aiming to be on the leaderboard WILL without question have DPS requirements.
The removal of the add on in question was removed to protect the privacy of those who do not wish to share their numbers.
People who still wish to use DPS meters/checks still have the ability to do so regardless of weather or not the GroupDamage add on is availible.5 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They have a few times shared (on ESO Live) that group DPS just as inspecting another players gear does nothing but lead to players identifying reasons to exclude players from grouping activities.
This isn't something they want in their game.
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5018 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Group Damage worked so much better and reliably than FTCs DPS share. I wish they would have added a way to consent to group damage sharing.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭
Then might I suggest asking for improvements on it then?Elijah_Crow wrote: »
But after the fact and with no situational context.
That or someone can make another add on to do what FTC does, but better. Or have GroupDamage edited to have an opt out function (which it apparently can't? I've been told it has technical limitations)
The main reason it was removed was because of its "spying" function where no one could say no to being inspected. If an add on existed (like FTC) that had the ability to opt out existed, then no one would bat an eye.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
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I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5013 -
KanedaSyndrome✭✭✭✭Not sure if serious or not, quite indeed.
Let me tell it as I see it.
Damage meters would make it so people can't play the way they want to and still be part of end game PvE, as it would quickly devolve into only accepting optimal cookie cutter builds in groups.
A toggle you say, so you can choose if people can see your dps?
Good idea, but no. People would begin excluding people that had the dps numbers turned off, after all, why hide the numbers if you've got nothing to hide?
Personally I don't mind the dps meters in the game. Just realize it limits endgame build diversity and can divide the community by creating an elitist scene.KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
The Best Plans Require No Action6 -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
✭The main reason it was removed was because of its "spying" function where no one could say no to being inspected. If an add on existed (like FTC) that had the ability to opt out existed, then no one would bat an eye.
It doesn't matter if it's opt-in or not. If one person in the team opts out, then the results either become completely useless or can be trivially inferred from the remaining values.
You either calculate the damage as percentages using only three people, in which case you still have no idea whether the fourth opted-out person is carrying you, or you are carrying him.
Or, you calculate the damage of all four people, then "hide" the results from the opted-out person. But the missing values would be so easy to infer, as to not be opted out at all.2 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭They already said why.
They don't want players telling other players they suck.
In ESO and what's becoming all aspects of baby America, everyone is a winner and should have a trophy.1 -
demendred✭✭✭✭You're post isn't doing enough damage. You suck. Stop playing forum.All good Nords goto Sto'Vo'Kor.3 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
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Then might I suggest asking for improvements on it then?Elijah_Crow wrote: »
But after the fact and with no situational context.
That or someone can make another add on to do what FTC does, but better. Or have GroupDamage edited to have an opt out function (which it apparently can't? I've been told it has technical limitations)
The main reason it was removed was because of its "spying" function where no one could say no to being inspected. If an add on existed (like FTC) that had the ability to opt out existed, then no one would bat an eye.
Well, yea. And thats what a lot of people who supported it were asking for.
As it is, FTC just shows a number at the end of the fight that disregards things like; the person had to stop dps because of mechanics, the execute phase bootsted the numbers, lacking resources, a bad timer start, etc. all of which GD actively displayed. This is not a problem for people who know the fights and mechanics well, because they will know when things pick up or drop off. But it is potentially very toxic in groups who are less experienced, which is the situation many dislike.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
*Group leaders can arange groups so that there is a better chance of suceeding even with lower dps. This has the potential to lessen the chance of failure and people feeling responsible for said failure.
*you can more easily see where you sit in the groups damage pool, and can have better tools to decide whether you want to improve what you are doing, or if you are fine where you are. (More importantly fine with where you are.)
*you can actually see if that elitest prick is puting his money where his mouth is, or if hes just a jerk who wants a group to carry him. (I find the latter to be true frequently, especially when he dies and we complete without him.)
*groups going for faster and smoother runs can more easily pinpoint places where things fall off, and can more easily take steps to improve as a team.
[EDIT] i just want to state these are alternate reasons, not necessarily better or worse, just alternate.Edited by Shunravi on February 15, 2016 8:59PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
EnemyOfDaState✭✭✭✭If you are in a guild it is useless because most of the time your friends will share their numbers with the group. If you are pugging it is useless because you will probably never play with that person again and it is just a tool to boot people.Edited by EnemyOfDaState on February 15, 2016 8:53PM3 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭because some people who do not know how to play were whining that someone else is seeing their dps and then does not want to group with them1 -
PhatGrimReaper✭✭✭✭✭Kind of funny.... removing this addon changes nothing. Scrubs are still scrubs. People are delusional if they believe that good players can't tell their DPS is bad without a DPS meter. You always know when someone is slacking and it's usually obvious who it is.Fat Grim Reaper - (m)Dragon Knight AR28
F G R Junior - Templar AR26
This One Had Name Changed - Nightblade AR19
Fat Grim Streaker - Sorcerer AR15
M12-GM - Guardians of the Twelve-GM - Crown Store Heroes - ETU
RÀGE - R.I.P0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
I think you are describing a very small aspect of this type of addon. I am in a few different PVE guilds, some more competitive than others.
From the competitive guild standpoint, we need a way to know who is doing what so we can better optimize raid groups. Not sure if you have been in the new trial, but the first boss has over 40 million health (that's like 7 manticores). Play the way you want is great and all, but you are going to need a baseline level of DPS to even have a shot at this type of content. Having group after group fail because of low DPS is not good for the game.
From a less competitive guild standpoint, Group Damage was the absolute best tool I have ever used to help people get their numbers up. In any guild I chose to be in (I like to think this is the norm) we try to help people improve their builds. Most people pulling really low numbers arent stubborn people that refuse to adapt, they simply need help to improve. If you are being kicked by guildmates for low DPS, you need a new guild.
FTC group damage is terrible. It doesnt work well. They need to make an App like group damage that can be opted in and out of, and perhaps it should be disabled for groupfinder groups, so exclusion is not an issue. If you are using groupfinder, you should not be expecting speed runs.4 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
I think you are describing a very small aspect of this type of addon. I am in a few different PVE guilds, some more competitive than others.
From the competitive guild standpoint, we need a way to know who is doing what so we can better optimize raid groups. Not sure if you have been in the new trial, but the first boss has over 40 million health (that's like 7 manticores). Play the way you want is great and all, but you are going to need a baseline level of DPS to even have a shot at this type of content. Having group after group fail because of low DPS is not good for the game.
From a less competitive guild standpoint, Group Damage was the absolute best tool I have ever used to help people get their numbers up. In any guild I chose to be in (I like to think this is the norm) we try to help people improve their builds. Most people pulling really low numbers arent stubborn people that refuse to adapt, they simply need help to improve. If you are being kicked by guildmates for low DPS, you need a new guild.
FTC group damage is terrible. It doesnt work well. They need to make an App like group damage that can be opted in and out of, and perhaps it should be disabled for groupfinder groups, so exclusion is not an issue. If you are using groupfinder, you should not be expecting speed runs.
Agreed in general, and double agreed on the 'forced off' in groupfinder.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
EnemyOfDaState✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
I think you are describing a very small aspect of this type of addon. I am in a few different PVE guilds, some more competitive than others.
From the competitive guild standpoint, we need a way to know who is doing what so we can better optimize raid groups. Not sure if you have been in the new trial, but the first boss has over 40 million health (that's like 7 manticores). Play the way you want is great and all, but you are going to need a baseline level of DPS to even have a shot at this type of content. Having group after group fail because of low DPS is not good for the game.
From a less competitive guild standpoint, Group Damage was the absolute best tool I have ever used to help people get their numbers up. In any guild I chose to be in (I like to think this is the norm) we try to help people improve their builds. Most people pulling really low numbers arent stubborn people that refuse to adapt, they simply need help to improve. If you are being kicked by guildmates for low DPS, you need a new guild.
FTC group damage is terrible. It doesnt work well. They need to make an App like group damage that can be opted in and out of, and perhaps it should be disabled for groupfinder groups, so exclusion is not an issue. If you are using groupfinder, you should not be expecting speed runs.
100% agree that makes everyone happy.Edited by EnemyOfDaState on February 15, 2016 9:25PM0 -
Function✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
I think you are describing a very small aspect of this type of addon. I am in a few different PVE guilds, some more competitive than others.
From the competitive guild standpoint, we need a way to know who is doing what so we can better optimize raid groups. Not sure if you have been in the new trial, but the first boss has over 40 million health (that's like 7 manticores). Play the way you want is great and all, but you are going to need a baseline level of DPS to even have a shot at this type of content. Having group after group fail because of low DPS is not good for the game.
From a less competitive guild standpoint, Group Damage was the absolute best tool I have ever used to help people get their numbers up. In any guild I chose to be in (I like to think this is the norm) we try to help people improve their builds. Most people pulling really low numbers arent stubborn people that refuse to adapt, they simply need help to improve. If you are being kicked by guildmates for low DPS, you need a new guild.
FTC group damage is terrible. It doesnt work well. They need to make an App like group damage that can be opted in and out of, and perhaps it should be disabled for groupfinder groups, so exclusion is not an issue. If you are using groupfinder, you should not be expecting speed runs.
^ This
This tool was single handedly the most useful addon I had ever used and ZoS removed it..it was invaluable to trial groups.Edited by Function on February 15, 2016 9:27PM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
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Then might I suggest asking for improvements on it then?Elijah_Crow wrote: »
But after the fact and with no situational context.
That or someone can make another add on to do what FTC does, but better. Or have GroupDamage edited to have an opt out function (which it apparently can't? I've been told it has technical limitations)
The main reason it was removed was because of its "spying" function where no one could say no to being inspected. If an add on existed (like FTC) that had the ability to opt out existed, then no one would bat an eye.
Well, yea. And thats what a lot of people who supported it were asking for.
As it is, FTC just shows a number at the end of the fight that disregards things like; the person had to stop dps because of mechanics, the execute phase bootsted the numbers, lacking resources, a bad timer start, etc. all of which GD actively displayed. This is not a problem for people who know the fights and mechanics well, because they will know when things pick up or drop off. But it is potentially very toxic in groups who are less experienced, which is the situation many dislike.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
*Group leaders can arange groups so that there is a better chance of suceeding even with lower dps. This has the potential to lessen the chance of failure and people feeling responsible for said failure.
*you can more easily see where you sit in the groups damage pool, and can have better tools to decide whether you want to improve what you are doing, or if you are fine where you are. (More importantly fine with where you are.)
*you can actually see if that elitest prick is puting his money where his mouth is, or if hes just a jerk who wants a group to carry him. (I find the latter to be true frequently, especially when he dies and we complete without him.)
*groups going for faster and smoother runs can more easily pinpoint places where things fall off, and can more easily take steps to improve as a team.
[EDIT] i just want to state these are alternate reasons, not necessarily better or worse, just alternate.
I think you are missing the ZOS design.
Their game success isn't based on DPS or Heal or tanking....just look at the recent changes.
-Scaling all players to the max levels
-opening up cross faction grouping and trials (BETA)
-removing VR levels and going to a CP basis with CP caps
-nerfs this, expand that, change this, adjust that
-group bonus if using grouping tools
-meshing heals and tank to where everyone needs to DPS and no one stands out as tank or healer.
The new Trail, although it will be challenging at first, its largely mechanics and knowing what to do and how to compliment or play well with others. The only "end game" that works off DPS scales or Healing meters is vMSA and now that its adding save progress...well you see where I'm going with this.
While it may not align with what you prefer and you may even disagree with what I'm sharing....this game is not make it or break it based on meters by design.
So....again...Why do ppl need it, other than booting someone or seeing that they are better o worse than another player....WHICH FYI isn't solely based on stats or a rotation. The beauty of this game is...its real time combat so meters typically only work well in games that are call n response like the older traditional MMORPGs that even new MMOs are made today off that design, but not ESO...
Not sure thats good or bad but the real time combat is why I like it.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 15, 2016 9:41PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
PhatGrimReaper✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
Then might I suggest asking for improvements on it then?Elijah_Crow wrote: »
But after the fact and with no situational context.
That or someone can make another add on to do what FTC does, but better. Or have GroupDamage edited to have an opt out function (which it apparently can't? I've been told it has technical limitations)
The main reason it was removed was because of its "spying" function where no one could say no to being inspected. If an add on existed (like FTC) that had the ability to opt out existed, then no one would bat an eye.
Well, yea. And thats what a lot of people who supported it were asking for.
As it is, FTC just shows a number at the end of the fight that disregards things like; the person had to stop dps because of mechanics, the execute phase bootsted the numbers, lacking resources, a bad timer start, etc. all of which GD actively displayed. This is not a problem for people who know the fights and mechanics well, because they will know when things pick up or drop off. But it is potentially very toxic in groups who are less experienced, which is the situation many dislike.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
I've never understood why ppl need this. Other than wanting to boot someone or say I'm better than or worse than X player
*Group leaders can arange groups so that there is a better chance of suceeding even with lower dps. This has the potential to lessen the chance of failure and people feeling responsible for said failure.
*you can more easily see where you sit in the groups damage pool, and can have better tools to decide whether you want to improve what you are doing, or if you are fine where you are. (More importantly fine with where you are.)
*you can actually see if that elitest prick is puting his money where his mouth is, or if hes just a jerk who wants a group to carry him. (I find the latter to be true frequently, especially when he dies and we complete without him.)
*groups going for faster and smoother runs can more easily pinpoint places where things fall off, and can more easily take steps to improve as a team.
[EDIT] i just want to state these are alternate reasons, not necessarily better or worse, just alternate.
I think you are missing the ZOS design.
Their game success isn't based on DPS or Heal or tanking....just look at the recent changes.
-Scaling all players to the max levels
-opening up cross faction grouping and trials (BETA)
-removing VR levels and going to a CP basis with CP caps
-nerfs this, expand that, change this, adjust that
-group bonus if using grouping tools
-meshing heals and tank to where everyone needs to DPS and no one stands out as tank or healer.
The new Trail, although it will be challenging at first, its largely mechanics and knowing what to do and how to compliment or play well with others. The only "end game" that works off DPS scales or Healing meters is vMSA and now that its adding save progress...well you see where I'm going with this.
While it may not align with what you prefer and you may even disagree with what I'm sharing....this game is not make it or break it based on meters by design.
So....again...Why do ppl need it, other than booting someone or seeing that they are better o worse than another player....WHICH FYI isn't solely based on stats or a rotation. The beauty of this game is...its real time combat so meters typically only work well in games that are call n response like the older traditional MMORPGs that even new MMOs are made today off that design, but not ESO...
Not sure thats good or bad but the real time combat is why I like it.
High DPS is everything in this game! You'd be surprised what can be achieved in some of the group content with high enough DPS. Every trial so far has been about high DPS and what I've experienced in the new trial is no different. Sure, the new content has more mechanics than we are used to in ESO, but all content is easier with higher DPS.Fat Grim Reaper - (m)Dragon Knight AR28
F G R Junior - Templar AR26
This One Had Name Changed - Nightblade AR19
Fat Grim Streaker - Sorcerer AR15
M12-GM - Guardians of the Twelve-GM - Crown Store Heroes - ETU
RÀGE - R.I.P0
