Official Feedback Thread for Maw of Lorkhaj

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Destruent wrote: »

For them it's too hard to be fun, for others it's too easy to be fun. But the first one can choose easier content...the second one doesn't have harder content available

True. Which is why I tell people (here and ingame) to let excellent players have their very difficult vMoL since we have the entire rest of the game and it doesn't matter if we don't complete it on vet, it's just not for us. I don't discourage them to try and work on it either ! But my point was not to say it's too hard, my point is to say that if it is too hard for people, or too hard to be fun for them, or if they think it is too hard to be fun for them, then no incentive in form of reward will change that.

.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm sorry, WGT is not "too hard to be fun." .../...
There should be a gear/power incentive to do difficult content. Just because you might think it's fun to run the same content 100s of times just for the sake of running it and never looting anything does not mean your perspective invalidates the one that I and others hold: namely the hero gets the sword of awesomeness only after beating the Big Bad Evil Guy.

You also forgot the "TO THEM" part of my sentence.
Where have I written that my point of view invalidates others' ?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Most of the stuff should be BoE to give the non-hardcore players the opportunity to get very good gear that allows them to be competitive in any content. But there should be reward stuff for actually overcoming a challenge.

Agreed. BoE would make both sides happy. Not sure why ZoS insists on BoP (like many other MMOs as it seems, I've personnally never played any other MMO but that's what people tell me, that rewards from difficult content is traditionnally BoP in MMOs).

.

Petros · February 2016

Just make them BoE while inside the instance.

Woeler · February 2016

Petros wrote: »

Just make them BoE while inside the instance.

^This

EgoRush · February 2016

Will there be a difference in the enchantment strength from hard mode gear drops? Like with Sanctum Ophidia? That tiny extra boost will keep me happy as a min/maxer without being something worth seeking for more casual players (I bet not many people even realise the enchantment strength is stronger from hard mode Sanctum drops).

Joy_Division · February 2016

Addihul wrote: »

A few thoughts now that we've had more time on the PTS.

I am in disagreement about increasing the difficulty of the trial when it comes live. Spending months on end in SO until the Serpent finally died was daunting and honestly a big eye roll. We were all anxious to start farming the gear and seeing the fruits of our labor. It didn't make that big of a difference that it took so long because it took over a year for new content to come out. There was literally nothing else to do except bang out the old trials on repeat. With the hope that another trial will come out in at least half the time.. what's the point of spending 2-3 times longer for a single complete? We think the second boss is monumentally harder than the first, but I can imagine the final boss is even more of a time and coordination sync. Buffing the first boss so it takes even MORE time for us to get to and complete the final boss is a good idea? No thanks.

I think this trial is a thing of beauty. But it is lacking in it's time commitment and some of its trash encounters. Call me old fashioned or just plain tired of the hunt, but running 1 or 2 successful runs a night in the coming months to garner a couple pieces of gear is just depressing. What is considered 'on farm'? Having the time to get 1-2 completes a raid.. or 4-5? Are we good enough to eventually complete the content? You bet we are. And.. I speak for myself.. but man, the sheer time commitment is frustrating. I hear the final boss fight is supposed to last around 15 minutes. Someone thinks that sounds like a blast? I guess it's still a far cry from 4 hour raids in Everquest with final boss encounters that lasted 45 minutes.

The trash in between the bosses seem like a big distraction. Ultimately the beauty, craftsmanship, and players appreciation for cool mechanics, balance, RP, etc fades. I want to focus solely on the bosses that give the loot so we can more quickly gear up and be ready for the next DLC. Right now the trash seems like a mini raid on its own. It's just too much. Leave all the cool trash mechanics, but cut the health in half so we can get to the bosses quicker. Was your intention to slow us down and make us smell the roses? If so you're nailing it on the head and I bow my head in submission. Again, this is not a 'nerf' request based on L2P or because we don't have what it takes. We are still one of the best guilds in the world, but in my opinion the time requirements make me want to stop running the trial.

Maybe it's just because I'm a raid leader that my mind is focused mostly on efficiency and getting to and through objectives quickly. If so, then my opinion is lop sided and I apologize. Maybe I'm an old man who's just tired of the grind. But I personally am looking for a trial that is difficult but CAN eventually be mastered on all levels. That means an eventual 'no death run'. I can see a no death on the first boss with extreme luck via the pad cleanses and/or timing of the pillars. But... the second boss is chalk full of cosmic accidental collision explosions among other disastrous craziness from the adds and the like. I'm not looking for another VMA where you can know every spawn and have every priority down to an art form but you still die to the most random stuff ever.

I'll end by saying I appreciate all you have done for the raiding community. I feel like you have taken in to account a lot of the thoughts and concerns we brought up in our first Council of Raiders meeting. It is obvious that we are on your priority list and for that I say thank you.

While I appreciate and can agree with most of what you wrote, this I cannot get aboard with. It's called "trash" because the filler stuff that gets put in-between bosses serves little purpose. That's bad design. The solution should not be to get rid of it or nerf it to nothing and have the Trial simple be three boss fights, but to make the non-boss encounters have meaning, give an opportunity for better/more organized teams to clear more efficiently and get a higher score, or at least provide some distinctive combat from bosses with one-shot mechanics.

Alcast · February 2016

Our best run so far, prolly could have killed it but Healer disconnected at 4% and 15% of Boss HP.

https://youtu.be/QB-v0kPP81o

again, my suggestions to improve and make the vet Maw of Lorkhaj more fun:

Alcast wrote: »

Both, boss nr 1 and boss nr 2 need a buff.

Boss nr 1 hits like a noodle and basically only the 30% burnphase is difficult.
Boss nr 2 is good difficulty but if we had our chars+nice ping that dude would be dead already.

so how to improve difficulty? And those difficulty improvements are not over the top, they would make the fights a lot more interesting.

Boss nr 1.
Decrease time to get behind pillars that kills everybody who is not behind a pillar. Now you basically have time to run over the whole room to get behind a pillar, so you need no reaction time or good positioning of the boss at all.

If you want us to have more fun on this boss give us more tigers, so we actually would need a 2nd tank on this boss because of more tigers spawning which would make the fight longer, and automatically more difficult because we can dps the boss less when we have to kill the tigers.

Atm from 30% to 0 we can just ignore the tigers and execute the boss, up the HP of the boss by 20-30% so we actually have to kill the tigers that spawn afterwards, atm we just ignore those.

Boss nr 2.
The mechanics on this boss are godlike, this is by far the most interesting fight so far in ESO, colorchanges are a real mindf***.

The only thing to improve here is that you should give the bosses like 30% more HP and limit addsspawn to 4 per side. Why? This is kind of an DPS race and the longer the fight lasts the more adds spawn. So the problem is...if you have super fast dps this bossfight will not get hard because you can nuke down the bosses pretty fast which means you have to deal with a lot less adds than ppl with low dps.

So up the HP of the bosses by 30% and limit the max spawnable adds per side to 4. 4 Adds on each side is a good number and makes the fight really interesting. Everything past 4 adds per side is Armageddon.

@Seiffer
Hand shout out to the devs, this trial is A-W-E-S-O-M-O. Just up the difficulty a bit more
Cant give feedback to other bosses as we have a really hard time with templates+250 ping to get past the 2nd boss. Tho if we had our real chars that boss would prolly be dead already. So buff bosses!

Cinbri · February 2016

So, no more hodor runs till eu transfer? Would be awesome if you completed it even with templates. Even i, pure PvPer after watching stream agree that trial awesome, especially that it realted to Lorkhan

seitekisaki · February 2016

Come on guys ! Someones got to beat this thing on vet before the end of today with some kinda strategy because tomorrow comes the temporary pts nerfs.

Alcast · February 2016

Hodor will sadly not get a grp together today....

seitekisaki · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Hodor will sadly not get a grp together today....

Noooo

Alcast · February 2016

seitekisaki wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Hodor will sadly not get a grp together today....

Noooo

at least Rich said they will put up difficulty again when Thiefsguild goes live.

EgoRush · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Our best run so far, prolly could have killed it but Healer disconnected at 4% and 15% of Boss HP.
https://youtu.be/QB-v0kPP81o

again, my suggestions to improve and make the vet Maw of Lorkhaj more fun:

Alcast wrote: »

Both, boss nr 1 and boss nr 2 need a buff.

Boss nr 1 hits like a noodle and basically only the 30% burnphase is difficult.
Boss nr 2 is good difficulty but if we had our chars+nice ping that dude would be dead already.

so how to improve difficulty? And those difficulty improvements are not over the top, they would make the fights a lot more interesting.

Boss nr 1.
Decrease time to get behind pillars that kills everybody who is not behind a pillar. Now you basically have time to run over the whole room to get behind a pillar, so you need no reaction time or good positioning of the boss at all.

If you want us to have more fun on this boss give us more tigers, so we actually would need a 2nd tank on this boss because of more tigers spawning which would make the fight longer, and automatically more difficult because we can dps the boss less when we have to kill the tigers.

Atm from 30% to 0 we can just ignore the tigers and execute the boss, up the HP of the boss by 20-30% so we actually have to kill the tigers that spawn afterwards, atm we just ignore those.

Boss nr 2.
The mechanics on this boss are godlike, this is by far the most interesting fight so far in ESO, colorchanges are a real mindf***.

The only thing to improve here is that you should give the bosses like 30% more HP and limit addsspawn to 4 per side. Why? This is kind of an DPS race and the longer the fight lasts the more adds spawn. So the problem is...if you have super fast dps this bossfight will not get hard because you can nuke down the bosses pretty fast which means you have to deal with a lot less adds than ppl with low dps.

So up the HP of the bosses by 30% and limit the max spawnable adds per side to 4. 4 Adds on each side is a good number and makes the fight really interesting. Everything past 4 adds per side is Armageddon.

@Seiffer
Hand shout out to the devs, this trial is A-W-E-S-O-M-O. Just up the difficulty a bit more
Cant give feedback to other bosses as we have a really hard time with templates+250 ping to get past the 2nd boss. Tho if we had our real chars that boss would prolly be dead already. So buff bosses!

It is upsetting to me watching that video then seeing me permablock due to crashing

we'd definitely have nailed it with templates. But yes, at least it's supposedly going to be more difficult on live. I don't mind that it'll be temporarily nerfed on PTS - the last boss apparently is even harder, so let's start focusing on getting that down. HODOR!

Daveheart · February 2016

So, I gave some feedback earlier, but I definitely have one more thing to add. Personally, the stability of the testing environment is beyond unacceptable. We (and I believe every other group attempting the new trial) have disconnects at every point within the instance, and it's extremely difficult to actually get a full attempt at a boss or trash pack with everybody connected the whole time. With or without addons makes no difference.

We went through all the old content tonight to try to get a feel for the scoring changes, and the only conclusion I could draw is that the PTS is just not stable enough for any true testing on content or scoring. I really hope the next release is better, but my hopes aren't high.

Woeler · February 2016

Daveheart wrote: »

We went through all the old content tonight to try to get a feel for the scoring changes.

Found anything interesting?

Paulington · February 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

We went through all the old content tonight to try to get a feel for the scoring changes.

Found anything interesting?

As far as I know the scoring hasn't changed beyond the additional vitality bonus, which means a clean run in AA/HRC will give old max + 12,000 and SO will give old max + 18,000. It won't be that clear cut due to time bonuses.

If that is true, Hodor's best of 119,068 in AA if perfectly replicated would be a score of 131,712 with zero deaths. Scores will just increase a little bit due to vitality bonus.

EgoRush · February 2016

Paulington wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

We went through all the old content tonight to try to get a feel for the scoring changes.

Found anything interesting?

As far as I know the scoring hasn't changed beyond the additional vitality bonus, which means a clean run in AA/HRC will give old max + 12,000 and SO will give old max + 18,000. It won't be that clear cut due to time bonuses.

If that is true, Hodor's best of 119,068 in AA if perfectly replicated would be a score of 131,712 with zero deaths. Scores will just increase a little bit due to vitality bonus.

We've really got to start cleaning the runs up and stopping deaths completely.

Woeler · February 2016

Would actually be cool if they added deaths and time to the boads.

Addihul · February 2016

I took video and screenies of our runs last night so I could break down point counts and such. Will review later and confirm. We had like 15-20 crashes last night. It was absolutely nuts.

I second seeing times and deaths on the leaderboards. Add it to VMA as well. ZOS can you comment whether or not this is something on the docket?

EgoRush · February 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Would actually be cool if they added deaths and time to the boads.

Ha but that would put your scores above ours in many cases as we're sloppy when it comes to deaths :P we'll go work on clean runs after vMOL has been cleared I guess. No chance I'm going back into AA/HRC/SO while vMOL is available!

silentgecko · February 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Would actually be cool if they added deaths and time to the boads.

that would be great

JLN · February 2016

2nd boss vet dead,
way too easy

Woeler · February 2016

JLN wrote: »

2nd boss vet dead,
way too easy

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

That said, we are making some changes to Maw in the next PTS patch in order to facilitate more testing within the Veteran difficulty and in response to some feedback regarding the Normal difficulty. We figured it was a good time to give you insight into what is coming up. Note: This does not necessarily represent the final balance we will have when the Trial goes live.

Probably the 486th time I quote that post.

EgoRush · February 2016

Yes, I am happy these changes to the second boss are temporary and will be reverted for live (and possibly made more challenging). As it is now, even on a 500+ ping the encounter is quite easy now.

As for the final boss...gosh...that's more difficult than the second pre-nerf. There are a lot of mechanics to get your head around. Great job, ZOS.

Alcast · February 2016

2nd Boss kill
With live character it is too izi.
Trash seems to be almost harder than the bosses lol >.>

https://youtu.be/bW0kjD2IU00

After unnerfing the PTS nerf you should still buff the boss... like here...and it is not too much to ask..if ppl cant cope with 6 adds then they simply do not deserve to get past the 2nd boss.

Alcast wrote: »

again, my suggestions to improve and make the vet Maw of Lorkhaj more fun:

Alcast wrote: »

Both, boss nr 1 and boss nr 2 need a buff.

Boss nr 1 hits like a noodle and basically only the 30% burnphase is difficult.
Boss nr 2 is good difficulty but if we had our chars+nice ping that dude would be dead already.

so how to improve difficulty? And those difficulty improvements are not over the top, they would make the fights a lot more interesting.

Boss nr 1.
Decrease time to get behind pillars that kills everybody who is not behind a pillar. Now you basically have time to run over the whole room to get behind a pillar, so you need no reaction time or good positioning of the boss at all.

If you want us to have more fun on this boss give us more tigers, so we actually would need a 2nd tank on this boss because of more tigers spawning which would make the fight longer, and automatically more difficult because we can dps the boss less when we have to kill the tigers.

Atm from 30% to 0 we can just ignore the tigers and execute the boss, up the HP of the boss by 20-30% so we actually have to kill the tigers that spawn afterwards, atm we just ignore those.

Boss nr 2.
The mechanics on this boss are godlike, this is by far the most interesting fight so far in ESO, colorchanges are a real mindf***.

The only thing to improve here is that you should give the bosses like 30% more HP and limit addsspawn to 4 per side. Why? This is kind of an DPS race and the longer the fight lasts the more adds spawn. So the problem is...if you have super fast dps this bossfight will not get hard because you can nuke down the bosses pretty fast which means you have to deal with a lot less adds than ppl with low dps.

So up the HP of the bosses by 30% and limit the max spawnable adds per side to 4. 4 Adds on each side is a good number and makes the fight really interesting. Everything past 4 adds per side is Armageddon.

@Seiffer
Hand shout out to the devs, this trial is A-W-E-S-O-M-O. Just up the difficulty a bit more
Cant give feedback to other bosses as we have a really hard time with templates+250 ping to get past the 2nd boss. Tho if we had our real chars that boss would prolly be dead already. So buff bosses!

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

again, my suggestions to improve and make the vet Maw of Lorkhaj more fun:

Alcast wrote: »

Both, boss nr 1 and boss nr 2 need a buff.

Boss nr 1 hits like a noodle and basically only the 30% burnphase is difficult.
Boss nr 2 is good difficulty but if we had our chars+nice ping that dude would be dead already.

so how to improve difficulty? And those difficulty improvements are not over the top, they would make the fights a lot more interesting.

Boss nr 1.
Decrease time to get behind pillars that kills everybody who is not behind a pillar. Now you basically have time to run over the whole room to get behind a pillar, so you need no reaction time or good positioning of the boss at all.

If you want us to have more fun on this boss give us more tigers, so we actually would need a 2nd tank on this boss because of more tigers spawning which would make the fight longer, and automatically more difficult because we can dps the boss less when we have to kill the tigers.

Atm from 30% to 0 we can just ignore the tigers and execute the boss, up the HP of the boss by 20-30% so we actually have to kill the tigers that spawn afterwards, atm we just ignore those.

Boss nr 2.
The mechanics on this boss are godlike, this is by far the most interesting fight so far in ESO, colorchanges are a real mindf***.

The only thing to improve here is that you should give the bosses like 30% more HP and limit addsspawn to 4 per side. Why? This is kind of an DPS race and the longer the fight lasts the more adds spawn. So the problem is...if you have super fast dps this bossfight will not get hard because you can nuke down the bosses pretty fast which means you have to deal with a lot less adds than ppl with low dps.

So up the HP of the bosses by 30% and limit the max spawnable adds per side to 4. 4 Adds on each side is a good number and makes the fight really interesting. Everything past 4 adds per side is Armageddon.

@Seiffer
Hand shout out to the devs, this trial is A-W-E-S-O-M-O. Just up the difficulty a bit more
Cant give feedback to other bosses as we have a really hard time with templates+250 ping to get past the 2nd boss. Tho if we had our real chars that boss would prolly be dead already. So buff bosses!

@Alcast reached level 10 in the copy/pasting & self-quoting skill line !!! GG !!!

.

lolo_01b16_ESO · February 2016

Now that we have our own characters I have to say the first boss kind of easy. (Doing vet version)

The second boss is a really great fight. I don't know how big the pts test nerf was, but when it gets buffed for live, it should be a fun fight for a long time.

The trash pulls are horrible. People are constantly crashing and when you have both healers or tank crashing at the same time you have to do all waves again from the start.

Woeler · February 2016

Beware the QQ:

I actually think a compromise between the 2nd boss now and the 2nd boss then would be best seeing how this is going at the moment.

EgoRush · February 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Beware the QQ:

I actually think a compromise between the 2nd boss now and the 2nd boss then would be best seeing how this is going at the moment.

It's really hard to make a call from experience playing from EU. I think the people on NA can call it better due to far fewer ping issues. There are times that are difficult purely due to latency that will not be an issue on live. WTB an EU test server too :P

The PTS is for testing bugs more than difficulty level, I feel. People are managing to get to the end within weeks of the PTS being available. Now groups are progressing to the final boss we're able to bug test the entire dungeon. Difficulty can be something they tweak after it goes live if months after release the content is still not being cleared.

Fecius · February 2016

EgoRush wrote: »

Will there be a difference in the enchantment strength from hard mode gear drops? Like with Sanctum Ophidia? That tiny extra boost will keep me happy as a min/maxer without being something worth seeking for more casual players (I bet not many people even realise the enchantment strength is stronger from hard mode Sanctum drops).

Well, 10 Magica + 100 Magica was a nice bonus pre 1.6. 10 Magica + 900 Magica is almost nothing today and after 1.6. But ZOS learning really fast, so we can hope for something special.

OK, I guess, it's time for a feedback:

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Finn

How difficult did you find Normal mode?

It's pretty Normal now after last changes in Voidcall for 3d boss. Good job.

How difficult did you find Veteran mode?

It's difficult and it's great. All raid and everyone out of 12 ppl should step up to pass it. I'm happy to have a real way to raise higher level of coordination and cooperation.

How did the difficulty feel compared to previous Trials?

Mechanically Normal mode is better than any of previous Trials. Difficulty is like: AA and HRC < MoL Normal < SO. I'm talking about actual difficulties close to release of those trials and not their current state.

Hardmode is much harder. Love it.

Did you run into any difficulties during the Trial? If so, where or with who?

Aside of difficulty itself and some ping from EU to NA problems:

1. Annoying bugs with Cats floating in the air after meteor combo.
2. Crashes of both 32 and 64 versions of client.
3. Annoying bugs with self-killing at Black/White glow change at 2nd boss.
4. Hardly noticeable telegraph for White to Black glow change at 2nd boss. It can be a problem on some monitors with low contrast. And it's OK and noticeable for Black to White change.

Were there any bosses or events that you particularly liked or disliked?

I love everything challenging. I love that difficulty ladder from boss to boss from somewhat easy to insanely difficult. I love that DPS-check and hard-enrage at every boss.
It’s hard to impress me with new boss fight mechanics because I have a lot of experience of top raiding in WoW since WotLK till MoP. But I’m happy to see that you are working on making more and more of those mechanics, and sometimes I even can’t remember if I’ve seen those mechanic or not before. For example second boss is an interesting mix of Taddius (Naxramas) and Valkyrie Twins (Coliseum), but I can’t remember something like Last boss’s Voidcall. And it’s really cool!
I don’t like that Mobs event cause it looks like there could be 2 more bosses but they were not ready and they were replaced by some adds almost same as trash packs but running at you like waves.

Did you complete the Trial? If so, was it on Normal or Veteran mode?

Normal – Yes, Veteran – Not yet.

Were you pleased with the items you received?

ESO itemization is the most confusing thing ever. I really don’t know yet do I like those new sets or not. Will they raise my DPS or not? I don’t know and I can’t predict without testing. And testing is hard without DPS Dummy and expensive on live, and even frustrating when you need to make it gold quality for tests and realize after that it’s trash and you’ve just spent a lot of coins for nothing. Clear itemization would make me happy when it would be more obvious that “Item set A” is better than “Item set B”.

And some good news! It looks like you’ve made boss loot tables split. Every boss and Mob-event chest has its own types of armor: shoulders, gloves, chests, etc. It’s great!

Have you previously played through any Trials, or is this your first experience?

I’ve completed all of them in every mode in actual time.

As this is the first time a Trial is scaling to the group leader, how did the scaling feel in both Normal and Veteran modes?

More as a min-max player I don’t really care about scaling. Only max lvl matters. I’m even not sure that it’s interesting to try to pass it with raid of 10 lvl players for useless 10lvl loot, IMHO. I’m not everyone and I can be wrong, but it’s just my opinion.

Were you able to easily find the Trial so you could enter?

It’s noticeable on the map, but you can find the way to lead there players in game who don’t read every ESO news and don't watch every ESO Live.

Do you have any other general feedback?

I love the new trial and the way you’ve added two different modes and even Hard Mode inside the Veteran Mode for last boss.

I don’t like tons of doors and character teleports inside the Trial. It doesn’t feel as something organic whole or continuous as it was in SO and HRC especially where you can even see your raid members running above/under you. It feels more like a set of rooms with teleports even though I can see it’s not on my map.

And 3 bosses after 1,5 year from SO came live is not that, much at all… Hope that we will see more bosses in your next Trials or more Trials with same amount of bosses but more bosses. Like 10 bosses a year, maybe, please!