EQBallzz wrote: »

Easy fix if they are truly worried about low level characters harvesting top tier mats in a zone that scales. Just don't scale harvesting nodes to the scaled up level. Scale the nodes to character level so it matches normal node progression. They can still scale the characters up for combat but just leave the crafting nodes scaled to the actual character level. Problem solved.

Yeah, this would be my ideal solution because it suits my play style. That way, I could just gather nodes for my characters that are their level as I play them. I think doing it this way would have been a much better "first draft" than the current way. However, @helediron pointed out that some people have one lower level character that is their master crafter, and does all the crafting. So they might have a, say, vet 1 character that has all the crafting skills maxed out. The current system allows them to farm max level nodes, so it works out well for them. So I can see how my ideal solution doesn't work as well for other people. So as a compromise, I'd accept something like "scale to character level or crafting skill passive, whichever is higher". I think ZOS should have considered something like this instead. It's a little bit more computing logic than the current system, but I think it would be easy to implement and explain nonetheless.

Dagonthir wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Easy fix if they are truly worried about low level characters harvesting top tier mats in a zone that scales. Just don't scale harvesting nodes to the scaled up level. Scale the nodes to character level so it matches normal node progression. They can still scale the characters up for combat but just leave the crafting nodes scaled to the actual character level. Problem solved.

Yeah, this would be my ideal solution because it suits my play style. That way, I could just gather nodes for my characters that are their level as I play them. I think doing it this way would have been a much better "first draft" than the current way. However, @helediron pointed out that some people have one lower level character that is their master crafter, and does all the crafting. So they might have a, say, vet 1 character that has all the crafting skills maxed out. The current system allows them to farm max level nodes, so it works out well for them. So I can see how my ideal solution doesn't work as well for other people. So as a compromise, I'd accept something like "scale to character level or crafting skill passive, whichever is higher". I think ZOS should have considered something like this instead. It's a little bit more computing logic than the current system, but I think it would be easy to implement and explain nonetheless.

I can see why someone would like that but why should a v1 character be able to harvest v12-16 mats? It's the same argument we just made about new characters harvesting top tier mats. If your highest level character is v1 you should be harvesting v1 mats. Unless you want to brave higher level zones at a lower level (I'm fine with this) or buy the mats.

I don't get why people feel like they have some right to high level nodes when they aren't that level yet. I get that you can get your crafting to max level before your character level but that doesn't mean you have a right to mats that are beyond your level. Again, if the idea of scaling nodes was to prevent level 1 characters from easily farming v16 mats why is it OK for a v1 or lvl 40 to do the same thing?

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Is crafting a lost art?

It seems no one wants to put skill points and the time needed to make a character good at his or her craft.

Adding skill points into the mat tiers is what makes a character better at their craft (specifically they can make improved armor, clothes, food, etc. with better materials and ingredients).

The proposed scaling based on character level bypasses all of that.

Players would only have to keep one character designated as their "crafting alt". Then they can reap the rewards of resource node mats on their high-level mains who have little or no crafting time/skill points invested. Said mats are deposited in the bank for the "crafting alt" to process later on downtime.

Is that a reward for the investment in crafting or is it a hand-out?

With all the skill points that have come out in the recent DLCs (and more on the way in Thieves Guild), I am still stumped as to why there are fancy elaborate thread posts against node scaling.

I can agree on keeping the leveled zone nodes staying they way they are in the starter zones and Cadwell's Silver & Gold. If all the zones were scaled, then there would not be any lower- leveled mats for new alts or guildies ... as one poster pointed out.

That doesn't make sense. So you don't want a high level character to farm high level mats for their low level crafting alt but you do want a low level crafting alt to be magically leveled up to v16 so he can harvest those same mats to craft the gear?

You can't have it both ways. BTW, how did a low level alt get max crafting anyway? I'm guessing they had to buy high level items (that they couldn't get on their own) to deconstruct or they had a high level character feeding them the high level items to deconstruct so it's no different passing high level mats to them to craft the items. Again, can't have it both ways. You're fine utilizing a high level character (or purchased mats) to level your craft but when it comes to mats it somehow makes crafting a lost art?

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Dagonthir wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Easy fix if they are truly worried about low level characters harvesting top tier mats in a zone that scales. Just don't scale harvesting nodes to the scaled up level. Scale the nodes to character level so it matches normal node progression. They can still scale the characters up for combat but just leave the crafting nodes scaled to the actual character level. Problem solved.

Yeah, this would be my ideal solution because it suits my play style. That way, I could just gather nodes for my characters that are their level as I play them. I think doing it this way would have been a much better "first draft" than the current way. However, @helediron pointed out that some people have one lower level character that is their master crafter, and does all the crafting. So they might have a, say, vet 1 character that has all the crafting skills maxed out. The current system allows them to farm max level nodes, so it works out well for them. So I can see how my ideal solution doesn't work as well for other people. So as a compromise, I'd accept something like "scale to character level or crafting skill passive, whichever is higher". I think ZOS should have considered something like this instead. It's a little bit more computing logic than the current system, but I think it would be easy to implement and explain nonetheless.

I can see why someone would like that but why should a v1 character be able to harvest v12-16 mats? It's the same argument we just made about new characters harvesting top tier mats. If your highest level character is v1 you should be harvesting v1 mats. Unless you want to brave higher level zones at a lower level (I'm fine with this) or buy the mats.

I don't get why people feel like they have some right to high level nodes when they aren't that level yet. I get that you can get your crafting to max level before your character level but that doesn't mean you have a right to mats that are beyond your level. Again, if the idea of scaling nodes was to prevent level 1 characters from easily farming v16 mats why is it OK for a v1 or lvl 40 to do the same thing?

I understand your feeling and I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that this is just a step towards dropping Vet Ranks all together. Scaling to the crafting level limit provides a way to scale nodes if set it equal to the tiers in the passive, requiring the passive does the same thing but also provides a cost to be able to do so. Scaling by level will be a moot point once Vet ranks go away.

If you wanted to keep character level for a check on nodes then you would have to scale any item above Ebony by how many CP have been earned once Vet ranks are dropped, and I haven't seen anyone argue that point yet. Or redo the scaling all together.

It won't be a moot point because the veteran level tiers will be mapped onto the champion system (they have already confirmed this). They will *not* be doing this scaling across the board when vet levels go away because that would completely break the crafting system. Max level characters would be unable to harvest anything but top tier mats so again..this only pertains to Wrothgar. It's an aberration to the system.

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Dagonthir wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Easy fix if they are truly worried about low level characters harvesting top tier mats in a zone that scales. Just don't scale harvesting nodes to the scaled up level. Scale the nodes to character level so it matches normal node progression. They can still scale the characters up for combat but just leave the crafting nodes scaled to the actual character level. Problem solved.

Yeah, this would be my ideal solution because it suits my play style. That way, I could just gather nodes for my characters that are their level as I play them. I think doing it this way would have been a much better "first draft" than the current way. However, @helediron pointed out that some people have one lower level character that is their master crafter, and does all the crafting. So they might have a, say, vet 1 character that has all the crafting skills maxed out. The current system allows them to farm max level nodes, so it works out well for them. So I can see how my ideal solution doesn't work as well for other people. So as a compromise, I'd accept something like "scale to character level or crafting skill passive, whichever is higher". I think ZOS should have considered something like this instead. It's a little bit more computing logic than the current system, but I think it would be easy to implement and explain nonetheless.

I can see why someone would like that but why should a v1 character be able to harvest v12-16 mats? It's the same argument we just made about new characters harvesting top tier mats. If your highest level character is v1 you should be harvesting v1 mats. Unless you want to brave higher level zones at a lower level (I'm fine with this) or buy the mats.

I don't get why people feel like they have some right to high level nodes when they aren't that level yet. I get that you can get your crafting to max level before your character level but that doesn't mean you have a right to mats that are beyond your level. Again, if the idea of scaling nodes was to prevent level 1 characters from easily farming v16 mats why is it OK for a v1 or lvl 40 to do the same thing?

I understand your feeling and I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that this is just a step towards dropping Vet Ranks all together. Scaling to the crafting level limit provides a way to scale nodes if set it equal to the tiers in the passive, requiring the passive does the same thing but also provides a cost to be able to do so. Scaling by level will be a moot point once Vet ranks go away.

If you wanted to keep character level for a check on nodes then you would have to scale any item above Ebony by how many CP have been earned once Vet ranks are dropped, and I haven't seen anyone argue that point yet. Or redo the scaling all together.

It won't be a moot point because the veteran level tiers will be mapped onto the champion system (they have already confirmed this). They will *not* be doing this scaling across the board when vet levels go away because that would completely break the crafting system. Max level characters would be unable to harvest anything but top tier mats so again..this only pertains to Wrothgar. It's an aberration to the system.

So what are you proposing to scale nodes above level 50 once Vet Ranks go away? Based on CP earned, Tied to zone, or Something else?

For me to form a proper opinion on level scaling I will have to wait and see what " mapped onto the champion system" means.

We don't know the details but from what they have said the crafting that is currently tied to vet levels will be mapped onto the champion system. Likely this will mean a new constellation or additional nodes added into existing constellations or maybe it will just be a hidden "behind the scenes" thing that happens as you earch X amount of champion points. So maybe current v2 crafting requires 100 CP, v3 crating requires 110 CP etc..

We don't know the details but it's going to essentially be the same thing. Instead of vet levels you will need CP.

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Dagonthir wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Easy fix if they are truly worried about low level characters harvesting top tier mats in a zone that scales. Just don't scale harvesting nodes to the scaled up level. Scale the nodes to character level so it matches normal node progression. They can still scale the characters up for combat but just leave the crafting nodes scaled to the actual character level. Problem solved.

Yeah, this would be my ideal solution because it suits my play style. That way, I could just gather nodes for my characters that are their level as I play them. I think doing it this way would have been a much better "first draft" than the current way. However, @helediron pointed out that some people have one lower level character that is their master crafter, and does all the crafting. So they might have a, say, vet 1 character that has all the crafting skills maxed out. The current system allows them to farm max level nodes, so it works out well for them. So I can see how my ideal solution doesn't work as well for other people. So as a compromise, I'd accept something like "scale to character level or crafting skill passive, whichever is higher". I think ZOS should have considered something like this instead. It's a little bit more computing logic than the current system, but I think it would be easy to implement and explain nonetheless.

I can see why someone would like that but why should a v1 character be able to harvest v12-16 mats? It's the same argument we just made about new characters harvesting top tier mats. If your highest level character is v1 you should be harvesting v1 mats. Unless you want to brave higher level zones at a lower level (I'm fine with this) or buy the mats.

I don't get why people feel like they have some right to high level nodes when they aren't that level yet. I get that you can get your crafting to max level before your character level but that doesn't mean you have a right to mats that are beyond your level. Again, if the idea of scaling nodes was to prevent level 1 characters from easily farming v16 mats why is it OK for a v1 or lvl 40 to do the same thing?

I understand your feeling and I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that this is just a step towards dropping Vet Ranks all together. Scaling to the crafting level limit provides a way to scale nodes if set it equal to the tiers in the passive, requiring the passive does the same thing but also provides a cost to be able to do so. Scaling by level will be a moot point once Vet ranks go away.

If you wanted to keep character level for a check on nodes then you would have to scale any item above Ebony by how many CP have been earned once Vet ranks are dropped, and I haven't seen anyone argue that point yet. Or redo the scaling all together.

It won't be a moot point because the veteran level tiers will be mapped onto the champion system (they have already confirmed this). They will *not* be doing this scaling across the board when vet levels go away because that would completely break the crafting system. Max level characters would be unable to harvest anything but top tier mats so again..this only pertains to Wrothgar. It's an aberration to the system.

So what are you proposing to scale nodes above level 50 once Vet Ranks go away? Based on CP earned, Tied to zone, or Something else?

For me to form a proper opinion on level scaling I will have to wait and see what " mapped onto the champion system" means.

We don't know the details but from what they have said the crafting that is currently tied to vet levels will be mapped onto the champion system. Likely this will mean a new constellation or additional nodes added into existing constellations or maybe it will just be a hidden "behind the scenes" thing that happens as you earch X amount of champion points. So maybe current v2 crafting requires 100 CP, v3 crating requires 110 CP etc..

We don't know the details but it's going to essentially be the same thing. Instead of vet levels you will need CP.

Well under that situation my VR16 crafter is essentially going to go from Max level to 3/5 max level instantly once Vet levels are dropped as I only have about 340 CP right now. But they did say that the change won't keep you from being able to use the gear you have now,,,, So I'll just have to wait and see before I personally would be willing to change my opinion.

Like you were saying they said the change wouldn't keep you from doing/wearing what you can now so the CP levels shouldn't be so high that it will lock you out of skills/gear you currently have. I'm sure they have figured out the amount of CP earned reaching v16 and mapped skills accordingly (we hope).

Here's a link to a thread where @ZOS_RichLambert mentions a little about the veteran rank removal. It sounds like each vet rank translates into 10 CP. So I'm guessing that in order to use vet 4 to 6 gear, you'll need to have 40 CP, to use vet 7 to 9 gear you'll need 70 CP, etc. I think it's worth to keep vet rank removal in mind when discussing crafting node scaling, but I don't think anything has been said or any suggestions made that will become moot when vet ranks are removed.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Players would only have to keep one character designated as their "crafting alt". Then they can reap the rewards of resource node mats on their high-level mains who have little or no crafting time/skill points invested. Said mats are deposited in the bank for the "crafting alt" to process later on downtime.

Is that a reward for the investment in crafting or is it a hand-out?

I would say it's a reward for investment in crafting. The fact is that most people complaining about this issue in this thread have indeed put in their time for crafting. We all did our deconstructing, our potion making, and our baking. We just did it across alts. So now to go out with our high level character and harvest low level nodes in the professions that character is not proficient in, it's just a huge disappointment. I always felt that harvesting was one of the many things that ESO did differently than previous MMOs that removed so much of the pain that normally comes with the genre, among other great things like unlimited fast travel with no cool-down, all players being able to rez, etc. It was awesome to be able to harvest any level node on any level character without needing any tools. Now this excellent design choice is significantly lessened by this node scaling mechanic. It's not only disappointing, but it's contradictory to some of ZOS's earlier (and brilliant) design choices. This mechanic honestly feeds more into the wants of the elitist players than to the casual players that probably make up the majority of the player base.

EQBallzz wrote: »

BTW, how did a low level alt get max crafting anyway?

Well, I don't think they're that low of a level. I think they're more like low vet levels. They'd have to be fairly high just to have the skill points to do all the crafting. In terms of leveling the actual professions to 50, I think that could be done just while doing normal leveling.

I'd like to work toward suggestions that can benefit the majority of people. It's apparent that some people like it the way it is, and some people don't. If ZOS just changed it to something like, say, scaling to character level, then undoubtedly some people would be displeased, and so we'd just go from one group not liking the mechanic to another group not liking it. So I'd rather not come up with something that isn't amicable to the people who like it the way it is. I think the suggestion to "scale to either character level or crafting passive" could possibly be a good compromise - it makes things better for the people who don't like the current mechanic, and makes no changes for the people that do.

Enodoc wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I can see why someone would like that but why should a v1 character be able to harvest v12-16 mats? It's the same argument we just made about new characters harvesting top tier mats. If your highest level character is v1 you should be harvesting v1 mats. Unless you want to brave higher level zones at a lower level (I'm fine with this) or buy the mats.

I can flip that around and say why should a V16 character who has crafting at Tier 7 be able to harvest Tier 10 mats that he can't use? Without the knowledge to use the mats, he also wouldn't know how to harvest them effectively, and would probably damage them beyond use while trying to acquire them.

I can tell you why..because harvesting is not crafting. Just because you can harvest the mats doesn't mean you can craft them. Imagine what the game would look like if to harvest anything you needed max crafting? Aside from never being able to harvest lower level mats it would mean to have a crafter make something for you..you are reliant on them harvesting for you. What if I'm not a crafter but I want to harvest nirncrux so I can provide the crafter the necessary mats to craft it for me? If this new scaling was in place everywhere that wouldn't be possible. Harvesting != crafting.

Problem I have with the current scaling system is it forces any character you wish to play to get them to max crafting level for the highest level mats. I have a designated crafter, and the new scaling system forces me to waste about 40 skillpoints on a combat character just so the mats drop at her level. I created an alt crafter to save on skillpoints, but ZOS essentially rendered that choice for naught. I am now strapping for skillpoints on my combat character, something I can't rectify easily.

I know that some people like the current crafting node scaling mechanic, but a lot of people also don't like it, and for good reason. I would ask that people please appreciate that fact. The game, and the crafting node scaling mechanic, should be fun for everyone. So please help work toward a compromise that works for everyone.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Crzykiddo wrote: »

Problem I have with the current scaling system is it forces any character you wish to play to get them to max crafting level for the highest level mats. I have a designated crafter, and the new scaling system forces me to waste about 40 skillpoints on a combat character just so the mats drop at her level. I created an alt crafter to save on skillpoints, but ZOS essentially rendered that choice for naught. I am now strapping for skillpoints on my combat character, something I can't rectify easily.

Quote from UESP:

"As of patch 2.2.4 the maximum number of skill points a player can gain is 348 skill points."

That's before the Thieves Guild ...

Next question: How many skill points does your character have?

If you don't utilize the skill points the game offers, of course you're going to feel strapped ...

I have 236 skillpoints.

I suppose I should mention that I only have this problem because I am focusing on dungeon content. Content which I have done over and over. So yes, I COULD finish Cadwell's Gold and go on skyshard runs (I have most in Cyrodiil and some in the Imperial City), but I am fairly content in running dungeons lately due to school constraints. That's about all the time I have these days. I was merely indicating that I have a skillpoint problem this moment, and it isn't rectified so easily.

Dagonthir wrote: »

Some people have multiple characters, and it just sucks to have to level up all the crafts on all those characters and spend the skill points in all those crafts just to harvest useful materials. I myself have 3 characters, and have considered starting a 4th after ZOS removes veteran ranks since the game will be somewhat more alt friendly at that time. But this scaled crafting node thing is very anti-alt. And it's not fun.

As the game is now, some would say the same about getting alts to VR15/16 to get these nodes but the game is going to go away from that and things will change. As for offering up an idea, other than the one about the Master Gatherer perk I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna wait and see how things go after Vet Ranks are dropped before I offer any more suggestions. It may hold to my belief that the way things are is fine, then again I may not. I do feel if they had dropped VR ranks with Orsinium, folks would be less upset about how node scaling works in DLC areas.

Casdha wrote: »

Dagonthir wrote: »

Some people have multiple characters, and it just sucks to have to level up all the crafts on all those characters and spend the skill points in all those crafts just to harvest useful materials. I myself have 3 characters, and have considered starting a 4th after ZOS removes veteran ranks since the game will be somewhat more alt friendly at that time. But this scaled crafting node thing is very anti-alt. And it's not fun.

As the game is now, some would say the same about getting alts to VR15/16 to get these nodes but the game is going to go away from that and things will change. As for offering up an idea, other than the one about the Master Gatherer perk I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna wait and see how things go after Vet Ranks are dropped before I offer any more suggestions. It may hold to my belief that the way things are is fine, then again I may not. I do feel if they had dropped VR ranks with Orsinium, folks would be less upset about how node scaling works in DLC areas.

That would be true except for the fact that nobody needs to level more alts to v15/v16. If you don't want alts and just have one character you can just harvest on that one character. However, if you *do* have alts and want to harvest you are forced into leveling up crafting on every alt if you plan to harvest. This is stupid. Also, let me be clear that this doesn't affect me personally as much as it probably does many others. It's certainly a PITA and it *is* limiting my options with skill points but I have enough points and I have enough gold to power my way through the crafting. That doesn't make this any less dumb.

I heard that with Thieves Guild DLC the nodes in Wrothgar and Hew's Bane will no longer have 90% v12 mats and will be switched to 100% v15/v16 nodes which completely defies the whole reason they gave for scaling the nodes in the first place (scarcity). So now level 1 crafting alts will be able to port to either zone and farm TONS of mats completely nullifying the scarcity but there will still be this asinine crafting requirement for people with alts.

Now that we can safely set aside the scarcity argument can we at least set the harvesting requirement for nodes to be crafting level *or* character level or something similar?

The 100% v15/16 nodes in Hew's Bane and Wrothgar is only if you have the crafting passive maxed out, right?

As a crafter, I don't really mind if other non-crafting players can go around and harvest high level nodes. I'm more of a casual player (well, as casual as you can call someone with a vet 6 and two lvl 49 chars) and limiting other players from getting these mats is just not important to me. Having my own ability to harvest be stunted due to having crafting across alts hurts my experience more than allowing more people to harvest high level nodes would. Being a crafter is always valuable since you can always make gear for others, or sell gear, and also improve gear from dungeons. I think these other advantages of crafting are a sufficient reward for pursuing the trades without having to limit other players' ability to harvest.