Stamina is grossly underpowered.

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Just watch the comparison here. Between the stamina and the magicka Nightblade. Ridiculous.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

Ya think? Magicka user been crying non-stop about stamina being the "OP META" either though it was just WB and steel-nado spam.

Derra · February 2016

Strange most stamplayers on pts seem to be doing fine. Either theory does not translate well into practice he oooor the problem is in front of the computer.

(Edit: Arena has been hugely in favor of magica chars before this patch anyway - not much changed).

AddictionX · February 2016

Wow 50 ultimate for 12k instant ultimate!

Pepper8Jack · February 2016

First: we can't have a real discussion about this only looking at one class.

Second: what do you propose be done to fix it?

We need to start talking constructively if we want to be taken seriously.

hammayolettuce · February 2016

Nightblade in general is just as powerful as before. Only real difference is there is a counter to cloak which was needed.

remilafo · February 2016

Watched the video, it's fine..

THink you watched it with grey tinted glasses on.

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Pepper8Jack wrote: »

First: we can't have a real discussion about this only looking at one class.

Second: what do you propose be done to fix it?

We need to start talking constructively if we want to be taken seriously.

I agree. From my experience stamina can potentially dish out similar damage to magicka builds, however they always fall short due time factors like overload and meteor scaling off of elemental expert. So for starters, if we were to make a lot of physical/poison/disease Ultimates available to all classes, that would help out a lot.

Resource management: this was easy to maintain for stamina Nightblades but not anymore. Magicka is just simply easier to maintain due to the variety of abilities that give magicka returns; stamina builds just have evil hunter. Not to mention magicka is just used for buffs, heals, and attacks. Stamina builds require stamina for all of that plus dodge rolling, blocking, bashing, and CC breaking. The best way to address this is to do a flat reduction to the cost of all stamina abilities by 10%, and before anyone says it, I know stamina abilities are cheaper than magicka ones, but the reduction is simply not enough.

The dodge rolling cooldown: I think this is necessary because of PvP, but the duration can be reduced by 1 second. On top of that right now in PvP an easy way to destroy a stamina user is to do the following: CC, then spam roots. This combination is too effective against stamina builds due to the dodge roll cooldown. My suggestion? Have it so that the cooldown does not proc if you're dodge rolling in order to get out of a root. This would be more than fair.

Survivability: you know what makes magicka builds tanky? Two things: 1) a large variety of heals; 2) damage shields. Magicka builds have a plethora of heals (burst heals, HoTs, heals from attacking). Yes I know we have Rally (a burst heal every 15 seconds, and a minor HoT), and I admit vigor is an excellent HoT, but it's no BoL or Puncturing Sweep. Now damage shields, stamina builds have none. Bone shield is a joke (not to mention expensive), Sun shield is too expensive for stamina builds, and is useless in PvP, Brawler is excellent in PvE but worthless in PvP. My suggestion? Reduce the time required for Rally to acquire it's burst heal. Other than that stamina is pretty good on heals due to vigor. Now damage shields, have bone shield become the stamina version of hardened ward, and reduce the shield potential of healing ward. Right now the potential shield strength of healing ward is ridiculous.

On a final note, for the sake of balance; remove shield stacking, and reduce/remove the spell resistance buff from spell warding (light armor passive. Because right now magicka builds are tanks since they have naturally high spell resistance, and have harness magicka. So now magicka users can dump all of their CPs into physical damage mitigation and have high damage mitigation from all sources (makes you wonder why heavy armor exists), whereas stamina users have to decide who they want to be tanky against: spells or physical.

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

remilafo wrote: »

Watched the video, it's fine..

THink you watched it with grey tinted glasses on.

Magicka Nightblade kills VMSA boss in 35 seconds. Stamina Nightblade kills Non-Vet MSA boss in 75 seconds. Oh yeah, that's balanced alright.

Ampnode · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Ya think? Magicka user been crying non-stop about stamina being the "OP META" either though it was just WB and steel-nado spam.

No, more like the 4K+ ambush plus an empowered 10K+ ult and a topping off with an 8K+ SA.

Derra wrote: »

Strange most stamplayers on pts seem to be doing fine. Either theory does not translate well into practice he oooor the problem is in front of the computer.

(Edit: Arena has been hugely in favor of magica chars before this patch anyway - not much changed).

+1

Miwerton · February 2016

More Skills and abilities need to scale of the different damage factors, so far bow is the only one to provide poison damage, and one disease morph, other than that nothing from other classes and skill lines.

The game needs more varying damage skills, at least just for more intressting gameplay
Here is some I wrote of it on another thread:

Would also be good if the various skills and ultis scaled of different damage types depending on what is highest of stamina or magicka.

Example: if magicka is highest assisins will will do ice damage ( come on ice is the neglected destrution element), and poison if stamina is highest, if stamina is highest Burning light from templars aedric spear line should do disease or poison damage (Most likely what @Maseri what was reffing to with biting jabs and binding javelin), Veil of blades should do physical damage if stamina is highest and magicka or possibly ice if magicka, etc etc for the ultis.

And of course have figthers guild line actually do physical damages, its time to get rid of the magicka laced damage that remains from 1.5.

And in the case of complaints agains WB, try moving slightly, if the target is sligthly moving you the skill loses focus.

Tdroid · February 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Pepper8Jack wrote: »

First: we can't have a real discussion about this only looking at one class.

Second: what do you propose be done to fix it?

We need to start talking constructively if we want to be taken seriously.

I agree. From my experience stamina can potentially dish out similar damage to magicka builds, however they always fall short due time factors like overload and meteor scaling off of elemental expert. So for starters, if we were to make a lot of physical/poison/disease Ultimates available to all classes, that would help out a lot.

Resource management: this was easy to maintain for stamina Nightblades but not anymore. Magicka is just simply easier to maintain due to the variety of abilities that give magicka returns; stamina builds just have evil hunter. Not to mention magicka is just used for buffs, heals, and attacks. Stamina builds require stamina for all of that plus dodge rolling, blocking, bashing, and CC breaking. The best way to address this is to do a flat reduction to the cost of all stamina abilities by 10%, and before anyone says it, I know stamina abilities are cheaper than magicka ones, but the reduction is simply not enough.

The dodge rolling cooldown: I think this is necessary because of PvP, but the duration can be reduced by 1 second. On top of that right now in PvP an easy way to destroy a stamina user is to do the following: CC, then spam roots. This combination is too effective against stamina builds due to the dodge roll cooldown. My suggestion? Have it so that the cooldown does not proc if you're dodge rolling in order to get out of a root. This would be more than fair.

Survivability: you know what makes magicka builds tanky? Two things: 1) a large variety of heals; 2) damage shields. Magicka builds have a plethora of heals (burst heals, HoTs, heals from attacking). Yes I know we have Rally (a burst heal every 15 seconds, and a minor HoT), and I admit vigor is an excellent HoT, but it's no BoL or Puncturing Sweep. Now damage shields, stamina builds have none. Bone shield is a joke (not to mention expensive), Sun shield is too expensive for stamina builds, and is useless in PvP, Brawler is excellent in PvE but worthless in PvP. My suggestion? Reduce the time required for Rally to acquire it's burst heal. Other than that stamina is pretty good on heals due to vigor. Now damage shields, have bone shield become the stamina version of hardened ward, and reduce the shield potential of healing ward. Right now the potential shield strength of healing ward is ridiculous.

On a final note, for the sake of balance; remove shield stacking, and reduce/remove the spell resistance buff from spell warding (light armor passive. Because right now magicka builds are tanks since they have naturally high spell resistance, and have harness magicka. So now magicka users can dump all of their CPs into physical damage mitigation and have high damage mitigation from all sources (makes you wonder why heavy armor exists), whereas stamina users have to decide who they want to be tanky against: spells or physical.

Excellent points, and I would add that a skill line similar to the Mages Guild skill line with a stamina focus would be very welcome. Sure, the Figthers Guild skills use stamina, but they are more geared towards anti-undead/daedra/werewolves. They don't actually do much to make your character a better fighter, unlike the Mages Guild skill line, which has bonuses to max magicka, magicka regen and the "Might of the Guild" passive, in addition to some useful spells.

Zaryc · February 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

Watched the video, it's fine..

THink you watched it with grey tinted glasses on.

Magicka Nightblade kills VMSA boss in 35 seconds. Stamina Nightblade kills Non-Vet MSA boss in 75 seconds. Oh yeah, that's balanced alright.

When you need 75 seconds on a non-vet MA boss, then the problem really sits in front of the computer.

Emma_Overload · February 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Just watch the comparison here. Between the stamina and the magicka Nightblade. Ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/xDLz-bVYcNI

All I got out of this video was outraged at all the people griping about Overload, when this Nightblade was able to do 20K on a Maelstrom boss with frickin' DOTs ..........................................DOTS!!!

Jura23 · February 2016

We need physical dmg Ultimates or just completely new category of dmg for Ultimates. At this point there is no justification for 99% Ultimates being magic damage.

LorDrek · February 2016

ZOS logic, all play magicka!

Alcast · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

Strange most stamplayers on pts seem to be doing fine. Either theory does not translate well into practice he oooor the problem is in front of the computer.

(Edit: Arena has been hugely in favor of magica chars before this patch anyway - not much changed).

Bow build in vMA?.....ok

PvE wise...well stam got nurf, but not as bad as in PvP.

PvP wise...
Stamplars are far from being fine. Infact, all stamclasses are screwed.
Thief Guild is the Birth of Batswarming Proxydet Sapping Nightblades comboed with..Vicious Death and Eternal hunt/Alchemist.

And guess what, all undodgeable skills. Have fun in cyrodiil. Time to grind my Magblade

pema · February 2016

I feel the stamina users in this game have been at a big disadvantage for a long time now.

The block = no regen and the roll dodging = cost expensive makes the game so much harder. (all this is a nerf to stamina users... )

The blinkers still blink off endless, and shieldstacking is still a fact, what remains is the fact that a normal player is left with all these cool down effects that give more cost.

I feel the whole game is to much focused on the feedback from PVP players.

Steel tornado, it's a fine nerf. and in PVE it's never a problem.

There is a serious lack of self heal for stam users. As a stam nightblade I have no self heal but vigor (were I had to do PVP for).
Were is the stam morph of blood altar? Were is the alternative to the templar trowing blazing spear?

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Strange most stamplayers on pts seem to be doing fine. Either theory does not translate well into practice he oooor the problem is in front of the computer.

(Edit: Arena has been hugely in favor of magica chars before this patch anyway - not much changed).

Bow build in vMA?.....ok

PvE wise...well stam got nurf, but not as bad as in PvP.

PvP wise...
Stamplars are far from being fine. Infact, all stamclasses are screwed.
Thief Guild is the Birth of Batswarming Proxydet Sapping Nightblades comboed with..Vicious Death and Eternal hunt/Alchemist.

And guess what, all undodgeable skills. Have fun in cyrodiil. Time to grind my Magblade

I've got a high elf Nightblade just waiting for me to grind him up. At least it'll give me something to play with as my underpowered stamblade continues to get nerfed.

Witar · February 2016

You really should compare stamina nightblade to other classes. Stamina templar, dk and sorc. No need to underline differences between two powerful versions of the same class.

Faulgor · February 2016

pema wrote: »

There is a serious lack of self heal for stam users. As a stam nightblade I have no self heal but vigor (were I had to do PVP for).
Were is the stam morph of blood altar? Were is the alternative to the templar trowing blazing spear?

IMO, health-management for stamina builds should have never been about healing. That's magic's thing. It homogenizes the different playstyles and makes the choice between magicka or stamina merely a choice whether you like blue or green better.
What they should have done is improve the capabilities for stamina builds to use non-healing defensive tactics, namely blocking and dodging - yet those are the very things they nerfed.

So, now we are in the situation where you can't make a viable PvE stamina build (e.g. for vMSA) without the only stamina-based heal in the game, Vigor, and it's locked behind a PvP skill line.
Either they should realize their folly and move away from stamina-healing, or they should offer more stamina heals outside of Vigor.

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Lol I have a stam DK. Easily more powerful than the stam Nightblade. I do prefer the Nightblade though due to how fast pace it is. Haven't leveled up my stamplar yet, but I'll get to it once I hit the CP cap.

Bfish22090 · February 2016

good, stamina was OP in the current meta

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Bfish22090 wrote: »

good, stamina was OP in the current meta

Hence why the maelstrom leader boards were dominated by magicka players. And in PvP the hardest hitters were magicka sorcs, magicka Nightblades, stamina Nightblades and stamina DKs. It was fairly balanced in PvP with it leaning a little towards stamina, but PvE was still dominated by magicka users. This game just took a violent shove towards magicka dominating in every facet.

LorDrek · February 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

good, stamina was OP in the current meta

Hence why the maelstrom leader boards were dominated by magicka players. And in PvP the hardest hitters were magicka sorcs, magicka Nightblades, stamina Nightblades and stamina DKs. It was fairly balanced in PvP with it leaning a little towards stamina, but PvE was still dominated by magicka users. This game just took a violent shove towards magicka dominating in every facet.

True, stamina builds need mor performance.

Shaggygaming · February 2016

Not all builds are going to excel at all areas of the game. We have all known stamina is a little more difficult in the arena due to more burst and less healing. Stamina is still destroying in PVP. Wrecking blow is one of the hardest hitting and messed up abilities in the game. Stamina NBs have also been the top PVP class for over a year now. They hit so incredibly hard people don't even have time to react or CC break. My surprise attack can hit other players for 10k+ compared to concealed weapon hitting for 4k. Honestly I can't believe they didn't remove the execute from steel tornado.

LorDrek · February 2016

Your pvp, kill talons, kill dragon blood, kill stamina builds, which are useful in pve. Go vma with magicka and than stamina what is better? Your pvp destroy this game. Ok decrease all abiliries in pvp to 1 000 000%, but not in pve. Pvp only destroy pve builds.

revonine · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Strange most stamplayers on pts seem to be doing fine. Either theory does not translate well into practice he oooor the problem is in front of the computer.

(Edit: Arena has been hugely in favor of magica chars before this patch anyway - not much changed).

Bow build in vMA?.....ok

PvE wise...well stam got nurf, but not as bad as in PvP.

PvP wise...
Stamplars are far from being fine. Infact, all stamclasses are screwed.
Thief Guild is the Birth of Batswarming Proxydet Sapping Nightblades comboed with..Vicious Death and Eternal hunt/Alchemist.

And guess what, all undodgeable skills. Have fun in cyrodiil. Time to grind my Magblade

IF the ball group meta remains. We'll have to see how this patch translates to live and open world Cyrodill.

That Vicious death + Alchemist combo is pretty ridiculous though. I suspect one or both of them will get nerfed. Unless ZOS is promoting the fact 1 person should be able to kill 20 xD

Strider_Roshin · February 2016

Yeah if these changes go live, I plan to play as a very overpowered magicka Nightblade.

Miwerton · February 2016

https://youtube.com/watch?v=I6Sc5ot5lBw

So #65 is what stamina is gonna feel like if this is what goes on live.

Glory · February 2016

It's funny, some (good) stamina players I have fought in the PTS have been extremely effective. They do plenty of damage and their healing is fine. In open world, I expect them to remain as slippery as they already are.

Balancing the game so you can't two shot people doesn't make stamina underpowered, it makes it require more skill than stacking weapon damage and hitting for 10k+ each hit.