Thanks for creating a PTS thread on the issue. You are right -- while it is appreciated, the 3% buff still isn't enough. In fact, it only just now brings Argonians' max stat passive up to the minimum threshold of other races. In a twist of delicious irony, ZOS has made a new potion-related bonus that is actually worth considering, but gave it to a new armor set (Alchemist's Set, grants 638 weapon/spell damage for 15 seconds after drinking potion) rather than taking the idea and applying it to the underpowered race that is defined by potion use. This shows us that they are still interesting in tying extra bonuses to potion use, and also that such bonuses can be adequately powerful. (EDIT: as @Jar_Ek pointed out, ZOS also removed the only potion constellation in the Champion System)

From my view, here are the main reasons why Argonian passives still need further reconsideration:

• 2 of the 3 core passives (+healing received and potion heal) are subjected to Cyrodiil debuffs. Argonians are the only race whose core passives are cut in half in PvP.
• Swim speed passive is pure fluff, and should NOT be counted as an actual passive with any impact on balance. Because of this, and given the relative underpowered values of their passives, Argonians are currently missing out on 1 bonus compared to some races. EDIT: I'm not saying to get rid of it! But, like the expertise passive that all races have, it should not be treated as something that takes up a passive 'slot' as if it had an impact on racial balance.
• The value of Amphibious potion passive still hasn't been fully compensated for the increase in potion cooldown or against the value/utility of 'always on' passives. For using something that (1) costs gold, and (2) has a 45-second cooldown, you are rewarded with a stat return that is the equivalent of a few ticks of regen. This is woefully weak compared to 'always on' passives, especially those that increase stat pools, regen, or certain types of damage.
• The Amphibious potion passive still does not synergize at all with Nightblade's potion passive, Catalyst (Catalyst feedback thread here). For those that don't understand why this is important, please see discussion in the threads below about how Argonians' and NBs' shared potion effectiveness passives were changed and replaced with much weaker and non-complementary bonuses last year.

Among those of us pushing for changes to Argonian passives, there is a split between buffing what we already have versus completely replacing some or all of them with different passives (or doing a bit of both). There are merits to all three approaches, which are discussed in the threads linked below. I recommend we leave those discussions for those threads so that this thread doesn't lose focus on the larger issue of bringing up Argonians up to snuff in any way possible. Only ZOS can make the change, so the best we can do is provide them with the source material to inform their decision-making.

So (ahem, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel ), here is a partial list of the most thorough discussions (in rough chronological order from newest to oldest) from the past 12 months about the problems with Argonians' racials and many potential solutions:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240512/there-is-no-reason-to-play-argonians/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236732/argonians-seriously/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236324/argonian-racial-passive-to-make-them-useful

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/231439/could-argonians-be-the-third-magicka-race/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233783/argonian-potential-balance-buff

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/221703/argonian-passives-idea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210144/argonian-racial-passives-a-very-desperate-plea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204701/zos-argonians-remain-least-competitive-race-consolidated-arguments-and-suggestions/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202773/argonian-feedback-suggestions/

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201966/zos-your-racial-balancing-is-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad-too

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204295/new-racial-passive-system-proposal-featuring-argonians-and-nords-as-examples

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194155/argonians

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/203868/pts-racial-passive-changes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/111534/racials-balancing

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162869/bug-nb-catalyst-passive

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/65730/any-news-on-argonians-racial-skill-buffs

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162238/i-cant-take-it-argonian-is-soooo-bad-compared-to-other-races

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151415/1-6-changes-to-potions-and-related-passives-abilities-issues-and-possible-solutions

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154490/change-to-argonians-best-passive-still-not-in-the-notes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154004/zenimax-please-reconsider-argonian-racial-passives

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154048/how-come-racials-werent-given-a-pass-in-1-6-zos

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153268/my-case-for-race-change-option-in-1-6

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150659/lets-talk-about-argonians-race-change-please

AlnilamE wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

[*] Swim speed passive is pure fluff, and should NOT be counted as an actual passive with any impact on balance. Because of this, and given the relative underpowered values of their passives, Argonians are currently missing out on 1 bonus compared to some races.

Sorry, but as soon as you got near swim speed you lost my support.

I'm not saying to get rid of it! I like it as well. But, like the expertise passive that all races have, it should not be treated as something that takes up a passive 'slot' as if it had an impact on racial balance.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Thanks for creating a PTS thread on the issue. You are right -- while it is appreciated, the 3% buff still isn't enough. In fact, it only just now brings Argonians' max stat passive up to the minimum threshold of other races. In a twist of delicious irony, ZOS has made a new potion-related bonus that is actually worth considering, but gave it to a new armor set (Alchemist's Set, grants 638 weapon/spell damage for 15 seconds after drinking potion) rather than taking the idea and applying it to the underpowered race that is defined by potion use. This shows us that they are still interesting in tying extra bonuses to potion use, and also that such bonuses can be adequately powerful.

From my view, here are the main reasons why Argonian passives still need further reconsideration:

• 2 of the 3 core passives (+healing received and potion heal) are subjected to Cyrodiil debuffs. Argonians are the only race whose core passives are cut in half in PvP.
• Swim speed passive is pure fluff, and should NOT be counted as an actual passive with any impact on balance. Because of this, and given the relative underpowered values of their passives, Argonians are currently missing out on 1 bonus compared to some races.
• The value of Amphibious potion passive still hasn't been fully compensated for the increase in potion cooldown or against the value/utility of 'always on' passives. For using something that (1) costs gold, and (2) has a 45-second cooldown, you are rewarded with a stat return that is the equivalent of a few ticks of regen. This is woefully weak compared to 'always on' passives, especially those that increase stat pools, regen, or certain types of damage.
• The Amphibious potion passive still does not synergize at all with Nightblade's potion passive, Catalyst (I will be making a thread on the change to this passive soon). For those that don't understand why this is important, please see discussion in the threads below about how Argonians' and NBs' shared potion effectiveness passives were changed and replaced with much weaker and non-complementary bonuses last year.

Among those of us pushing for changes to Argonian passives, there is a split between buffing what we already have versus completely replacing some or all of them with different passives (or doing a bit of both). There are merits to all three approaches, which are discussed in the threads linked below. I recommend we leave those discussions for those threads so that this thread doesn't lose focus on the larger issue of bringing up Argonians up to snuff in any way possible. Only ZOS can make the change, so the best we can do is provide them with the source material to inform their decision-making.

So (ahem, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel ), here is a partial list of the most thorough discussions (in rough chronological order from newest to oldest) from the past 12 months about the problems with Argonians' racials and many potential solutions:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240512/there-is-no-reason-to-play-argonians/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236732/argonians-seriously/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236324/argonian-racial-passive-to-make-them-useful

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/231439/could-argonians-be-the-third-magicka-race/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233783/argonian-potential-balance-buff

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/221703/argonian-passives-idea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210144/argonian-racial-passives-a-very-desperate-plea/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204701/zos-argonians-remain-least-competitive-race-consolidated-arguments-and-suggestions/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202773/argonian-feedback-suggestions/

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201966/zos-your-racial-balancing-is-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad-too

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/204295/new-racial-passive-system-proposal-featuring-argonians-and-nords-as-examples

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194155/argonians

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/203868/pts-racial-passive-changes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/111534/racials-balancing

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162869/bug-nb-catalyst-passive

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/65730/any-news-on-argonians-racial-skill-buffs

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162238/i-cant-take-it-argonian-is-soooo-bad-compared-to-other-races

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151415/1-6-changes-to-potions-and-related-passives-abilities-issues-and-possible-solutions

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154490/change-to-argonians-best-passive-still-not-in-the-notes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154004/zenimax-please-reconsider-argonian-racial-passives

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154048/how-come-racials-werent-given-a-pass-in-1-6-zos

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153268/my-case-for-race-change-option-in-1-6

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150659/lets-talk-about-argonians-race-change-please

^ I would like to have my name added as a co-sponsor of this bill! Nice work.

You know, I was so overjoyed by the addition of a set that could actually make our potion passive useful that I didn't even consider the possibility of a snub. That damage bonus could easily have just been added to our passive (a lesser strength, of course), but instead we were left with a meager stat return while the rest of Tamriel got a tasty potion-based gift. You're right. They could have given us something like a damage % increase for a certain number of seconds after drinking a potion, but thought otherwise for some reason. I just wish we could get an explanation as to why our passives are so balanced with everyone else's. They keep doing these little increases for Argonians, but jacked up the Bosmer passive from like 9% to 21% in one patch. What's up with that?

I certainly do appreciate the health boost being raised, but let's face it. Dunmer get a 9% magicka boost PLUS 6% stamina boost, in addition to fire resistance and a 7% fire damage increase. Orcs get 6% max health and 6% max stamina, a 12% boost to stats, PLUS increased Sprint speed, reduced Sprint cost, 4% damage bonus, AND 30% health regen! WTF?! Need I continue...? I'm on a roll, why stop? Altmer...now here's a dandy, get 10% boost to magicka, 9% magicka regen, AND 4% damage buff to ALL elements! Not just one or two, but ALL of them. Next on the list: Redguard. Holy buckets, again, a 10% max stat boost, stamina regen, AND a retum on stamina with melee hits. Breton: here it is again, a 10% max stat increase, cost reduction, and 3000 magicka resistance, when magicka damage is so prevalent in every build and many abilities. Bosmer, holy crap, 21% stamina regen! 10% increased damage from stealth and invisibility, a detection radius decrease, AND more disease and poison resistance than Argonians with 3% max stamina increase, these guys can sustain for days. I don't even need to mention Imperials. The bonus they get are insane, but justified because you had to pay for the race. I'm not sure I agree with that decision, but it is what it is. So they get the pay wall pass. Let's also not forget that the aforementioned racial passives are not affected by the Cyrodiil penalties.

Now we come to our beloved Argonians:
-Swim speed, which is completely negated in Cyrodiil by slaughterfish-infested waters.

-8% return on stats when drinking a potion, which comes strapped with a 45 second cool down and expenditure of a consumable, not to mention that it's only a 4% return on health from a potion in Cyrodiil. No other passives have such restrictions. None of them. And 8% return on stats amounts to less than the regen of other races, which is always running without any effort or thought required. At least PC has add-ons which let you know when a potion is up. Console has no such notice. An Argonian on console must keep an extra eye on their potion timer. Other races just "set it and forget it," so to speak. Also, I find it curious that the potion-based Champion System star was removed, yet the potion-based passive remains? Seems like a double standard.

-now buffed to a 9% max health increase, which is decent, but given what's been established, why not 10%? I mean Dunmer have a 15% stat increase. Orc have 12%. Imperial 22%! Why do Nords and Argonians only get 9%? What's the fear here? Since it's health, they deserve less? That doesn't make sense, considering no damage type scales off health.

-Then the poison and disease resistance. A much less pervasive damage type than say magicka damage (Breton) or Fire damage (Dunmer). Heck, entire classes and builds are built around those types of damage. I think like 2 bow abilities use poison. And disease, can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there is one. There must be.

-Now to healing received: a 9% boost. This ability is cut in half in Cyrodiil. So we actually get 4.5% increased healing received in Cyrodiil. This is also a passive that requires expenditure of resources to benefit. This is also a very niche passive. Stamina and magicka boosts can be spent on any ability while a healing received increase is limited to, you guessed it, healing abilities. For such a pidgeonholed passive, shouldn't it come with a larger reward?

Let's not forget how damage is calculated in this game. It's max stamina or magicka plus the corresponding spell or weapon power. So not only do races with boosts to stamina and magicka get boosts to their resource pools, they also get increased damage because of how game mechanics work. They are also not nerfed in Cyrodiil. Argonians get penalized by game mechanics in Cyrodiil while others reap the benefits of how damage is calculated.

So as you can see, 3 of Argonians' racial bonuses are nerfed in Cyrodiil, one of which is supposed to be their capstone passive: Quick to Mend. They're resistant to damage types that are barely seen in the game. And their resistance is less than races with resistances to vastly more prevalent damage types. Also, while some races get as high as 22% max stat increases, Argonians and Nords are held back at 9% for some strange reason. This is really mystifying.

Now do you understand why we're upset and frustrated? Now @Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert can you please explain how Argonian racial passives are balanced compared to the other races? We really do want to know, because the facts show otherwise, and not by a small margin. What is the actual formula for balancing racial passives?

Yes, Argonians need much more than this token buff. They are still a joke compared to other races.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

My suggested argonian passive: potion effects are increased 33/66/100%

So an invis pot would last 2x as long and a healt pot would heal 2x as much.

That would be amazing, but unfortunately, that kind of passive is no longer possible since Major/Minor buffs cannot have their values altered (this was the whole reason why +potion effectiveness was removed a year ago, in order to standardize and balance all buffs and buff sources in the game).

Also, I recommend we leave discussions about changes to passives for the threads I linked so that this thread doesn't lose focus on the larger issue of bringing up Argonians up to snuff in any way possible. Only ZOS can make the change, so the best we can do is provide them with the source material to inform their decision-making.

Well coming from argonian nb land ....lizards need luv

@Junkogen and @ThatNeonZebraAgain thanks for posting your stuff above it hits the nail on the head.

Don't forget the new Argonian nerf. Nourishing CP has been removed making our potion passive unbuffable.

And let's not forget we have suggested alternative buffs based on potion use - it's simply that zos applied the idea to a crafted armour set...

Add clever alchemist setbonus into argonian racial passive.

Zos, please fix.

Preyfar wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »
I really think racial passives should be exempt from the Cyrodiil penalties. Max stat passives don't get any penalty while passives like the Argonians' get nerfed in half. For instance, quick to mend is only half as effective, not to mention the healing from potions is also cut in half. It's really not fair that a race or two gets penalized while others are at full strength. Please consider giving racial passives an exemption. It really is a balance issue. Argonians get double nerfed in Cyrodiil while a Redguard is at full force.

Y'know, the Cyrodiil debuff never occurred to me for Argonians. Yeah, that's a rather huge hit to them in particular, and definitely should be looked at/fixed.

Nor did I! ><

That's why when I read Junkogen's post in another thread I was a bit stunned I had never considered PvP debuffs and so posted it here.


and keep fighting the good fight ThatNeonZebraAgain! You keep adding to your thread list and maybe someone from Zenimax will actually respond that yes, Agronians are getting the shaft for no good reason.

The thing is, too, no one really invests in health because it's not as beneficial as magicka or stamina. So 9% of not much is even worse. With the meta the way it is, a 9% or 10% boost to magicka or stamina translates into a lot more utility and much more benefit. If anything, the max health boost should be more to compensate for the lack of game mechanics that benefit from it. The game is very biased against anything health related. Healing is nerfed in Cyrodiil. Health regen is worse than stamina and magicka regen. Tanking is worse off than DPS builds. Heavy armor is ignored. I just don't understand the reasoning for why the health races get gimped when the benefits are so limited.

Xsorus wrote: »

I have a nord dk and an argonian nb.. I'd switch both in a heart beat

Both races were fine before the soft cap removal.. After they removed soft caps anything with a stamina or magicka boost became vastly better

QFT

Argonians are almost fine now,

- 9% health + disease/poison resist is on par with the Nord passive.

- 9% bonus healing recieved is very good. And no, the passive isn't cut in half in cyrodiil. If a heal gives you 1000hp back, you get 90 extra health with the passive. In Cyrodiil instead you get healed for 500hp. So, you get 45 extra health with the passive. Which is still 9% more than any other races.

- The only fluff remains with the swimspeed passive and with the potion bonus which is the problem. 8%stats on a 45sec CD is just way too situational. No passives should be tied to consummables in my oppinion.

I propose a simple change for that passive which could allow the Argonian to keep their swim speed bonus.
Athletics : Increase Swim speed by 50%, Sprint Speed by 3/6/10% and stamina cost reduction by 1/2/3%

Argonians have always been one of the races with the highest score of Athletics back in Morrowind and Oblivion. It fits their conception and it allows them to keep their swimspeed and have a wide array of survivability passives.

Who is betting that as soon as most Argonians have invested in full yellow crafted alchemists set and potion redux jewellery, then zos change Argonian potion passive ...

Junkogen wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Argonians are almost fine now,

- 9% health + disease/poison resist is on par with the Nord passive.

- 9% bonus healing recieved is very good. And no, the passive isn't cut in half in cyrodiil. If a heal gives you 1000hp back, you get 90 extra health with the passive. In Cyrodiil instead you get healed for 500hp. So, you get 45 extra health with the passive. Which is still 9% more than any other races.

Did you read my other posts? Yes, the passive is affected by the Cyrodiil penalties. Are the Redguard racials affected at all? Nope. You said so yourself. You even gave an example of how it is directly affected.

Also, why only 9%? Both the Nords and Argonians are getting shorted. You also have to factor in how these things fit with the rest of the game. Not just simple percentages. The numbers are deceiving.

It's a matter of balance, if the imperial passive gives 12% maximum health, you can't just give 12% + an extra resist on top of it otherwise the 12% alone is overshadowed by the passive with the maximum health and resist. 9% + some resistance is fine considering pure stat passives are between 10-12%. Now, I'm not saying you want it to be 12%, I recall you saying 10% I believe.

I've made a thread or two around racials and I've responded to a lot of those racial posts, and trust me, I studied those very hard and came to a conclusion that racials are, in the end, just an extension of your gear. If you replace sets from your gear, most of your racials should be able to compensate for it, which most of them did until the latest racial balance changes.
- Can you replace that 9% healing recieved for 2 extra set slots : yes you can (and you even get a bonus)
- Can you replace that 9% extra health bonus for 2 extra set slots : not interely (but you get a free poison/disease jewel slot)
- Can you replace the swim speed and potion "bonus" for 2 extra set slots : not at all and the bonus you get is not worth loosing 2 slots of sets.

You are not asking yourself the right questions in my oppinion. When you go in Cyrodiil with an Argonian, aren't you healing 9% faster than anyone else? Yes your total healing score is affected by the Battle Spirit buff, like anyone else, but you are still gaining 9% extra health on those heals so the passive is unaffected (it doesn't get cut in half, like someone said above, otherwise that 1000 base heal would give you 522,5 and not 545).

I agree with you that there are still racial disparities between races, and Argonians could still use some help in some of his passives. But I just don't believe you are using the right arguments and spoting the real problem.

I bet if Zenimax gave me the lead on the racial changes I could make 90% of the racials (some can obsiouly not be balanced because they are way too situational and offer fluff) on par with every other races and balance it out.It's not a hard task, just a matter of time and analysis to make the right comparaisons and balance it out.