So after testing against a few mobs, it appears that in fact Caltrops no longer procs Siphoning Attacks. Huge nerf to NB tanks, though a balance for PvP.

Well that's just great. I hope they look into this change a bit more thoroughly, because right now I can't think how a NB tank would sustain resources without it. Thanks for the testing anyway dude, appreciate it.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Samphaa wrote: »

Well that's just great. I hope they look into this change a bit more thoroughly, because right now I can't think how a NB tank would sustain resources without it. Thanks for the testing anyway dude, appreciate it.

Cheap spammable ranged ability that can be block-casted, like Structured Entropy.

Also tested Necrotic Orb to see if it proc'd SA on its multiple hits (which resemble sap essence), but it doesn't.

Funnel Health does that job just fine, but at that rate I get back 2k stam and magicka every 10th time I cast the ability. Whilst my stamina just goes down and down from constantly having to block. The only way to consistently get resources back with siphoning now is to activate it, drop block, and swing some lights attacks in there, it just doesn't work as a tank.

Yea, I tested this on the PTS last night; caltrops no longer proc SA. I'm disappointed, and it means that I'll have to be more stingy with my resources, but I'm not really that worried. I never used caltrops in boss fights anyway--only in large mob pulls, and those generally don't last long enough to tax my resources. It'll be fine. Go replace that slot with proxy det instead.

Now that Siphoning Attacks can't proc off Twisting Path and Caltrops (just tested it on PTS), I think ZOS should have a look at the value of its stat return. Resource management was the main strong point of NB tanks, but that is now largely diminished because of the overall reduce chance to proc SA. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking was key for boss fights where you can't afford to drop block often either because boss attacks are communicated well, bugged, attacks from adds at same time as boss, etc. SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, but blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy only goes so far in maintaining stamina (and magicka) while blocking multiple attacks, taunting, buffing, etc. Sap Essence is still a strong way to proc it, but requires there to be multiple mobs, so not good for many prolonged boss fights or fights with lots of ranged adds.

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really awesome combo, but admittedly OP in some situations. Since that was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

Since they can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that ground target AoE DoTs like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of these AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow Barrier passive proc, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (so the same as it has been).

kirk_lewis_ESO wrote: »

Samphaa wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Considering we have a guy in the guild that can solo vet dungeons using that skill amongst others I'd say they've brought balance to it.

But the guy in your guild is probably some super player who plays eso all day. The other 99% of eso players could slot exactly the same skills and get nuked at the first boss. You shouldn't punish the majority because it's OP for elite players. If that was the case, dungeons like vWGT and vICP would be impossible for most people to complete as ZOS would be scaling it for the 1% of people who have enough dps to burn through bosses and negate most of the mechanics

At this stage NB tanking seems vastly inferior to DK tanking, which it shouldn't be, every class should be able to handle every role just fine in most situations.

Time will tell on this anyway, I can't test as I'm a console peasant, but resources management has definitely taken a huge hit for nb tanking with this.

No offense but this is horse pucky. Some people are just better at somethings than others. It's how the world works. Nightblades are the best DPS classes. The other classes needed something or the only defining feature would be what moves are cooler than the other.

What is horse pucky? Horse ***? Or picky? Some people are better at some things than others, that's why competetion/tables/leaderboards exist. I was under the impression a sorc overload build was the highest dps in the game? But I'm talking about tanking and resource management, not dps, if you wanna lower nightblade dps, change dps skills....not resource management skills

kirk_lewis_ESO wrote: »

Samphaa wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Considering we have a guy in the guild that can solo vet dungeons using that skill amongst others I'd say they've brought balance to it.

But the guy in your guild is probably some super player who plays eso all day. The other 99% of eso players could slot exactly the same skills and get nuked at the first boss. You shouldn't punish the majority because it's OP for elite players. If that was the case, dungeons like vWGT and vICP would be impossible for most people to complete as ZOS would be scaling it for the 1% of people who have enough dps to burn through bosses and negate most of the mechanics

At this stage NB tanking seems vastly inferior to DK tanking, which it shouldn't be, every class should be able to handle every role just fine in most situations.

Time will tell on this anyway, I can't test as I'm a console peasant, but resources management has definitely taken a huge hit for nb tanking with this.

No offense but this is horse pucky. Some people are just better at somethings than others. It's how the world works. Nightblades are the best DPS classes. The other classes needed something or the only defining feature would be what moves are cooler than the other.

last i checked magicka sorc and magicka Dk were best DPS classes

Caltrops will still be useful in large trash pulls because outside of taunting, few things generate mob aggro like the Caltrops + Sap combination (and Sap will proc SA even if Caltrops doesn't).

For boss fights it's gonna be a matter of dropping block and working in a couple light attacks if I'm really in trouble -- not sure if that's going to be viable in the vet mode of the new trial, though, as ZOS doesn't seem to want there to be a line between "no tank needed" and "fulltime permablocking tank required plz bring a robot and shards".

Autolycus wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SA already only procc'd off certain DoTs. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't for example. Cripple also already didn't proc it (to my knowledge). Caltrops is somewhat different in terms of what it counts as. It used to be each 'tick' was calculated as a separate melee attack, but I think that was changed maybe with the IC update, so I'm not totally sure what it counts as now. So, with many skills we already had it where the initial tick/hit still has a chance to proc it, but subsequent ticks don't

Am on PTS right now and will test Caltrops to see if it still procs SA.

EDIT: As a side note, I'm wondering how the change to Dark Cloak might benefit NB tanks since it now gives 8% damage reduction for 5s after coming out of stealth. Main problem is that going into stealth drops taunt...

I have a couple of points to add here, not as a debate (because I generally agree) but rather to add some content to the discussion:

1. Caltrops never proc'd SA from every tick, so the description in the natch potes is very misleading. They "fixed" a non-existent issue. Had it actually done this, then we'd be looking at a reasonable change.
2. Confirmed on PTS that Caltrops and Twisting Path do not proc SA at all anymore.
(Edit: Except for the initial hit)
3. The only time using cloak as a tank will be useful in PvE encounters is immediately prior to the pull. Since it only lasts 5s, it's a huge waste to have it on our bar. We are much better off using shades or path to benefit from shadow passives.

It was my understanding that Caltrops used to proc the basic attack stat return on every tick it hit something. With the IC update in August, they changed it so that it no longer counts as a melee/basic attack, which made it only proc off the 10% chance (which gives the higher resource return) upon hit throughout its duration. Now, it only has a chance to proc the larger resource return only on the initial hit. So you're right, between the IC update and now, it didn't automatically proc off each tick, but it had a chance to. Now it only has a chance on the first hit.