Maw of Lorkhaj - Do you think it will be beaten on PTS?

Alcast · February 2016

We all remember Sanctum Ophidia...it took like 2-3 Months to complete it...

However..despite @ZOS_Finn saying the new Trial is very difficult, I am still afraid that it will not take 2 weeks on PTS to complete it..
I mean Maelstrom was just rolled over like it was a joke...

What do you guys think?

Joy_Division · February 2016

Unfortunately, it sounds like it will be.

They say it's as hard as Maelstrom and that was beaten on the PTS.

I heard in another thread it's intended for people with 300 CPs.

It would be a shame that the new trial that we waited 17 months for was already farmable upon release.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

MMMmmmhhh...

I remember you saying that Vet Maelstroem was extremely difficult... especially on your stamplar.
I remember you and others mentioning sitting there 12+ hours in a row to learn and beat it.

Sure, you ended up beating it in a few days/weeks BUT... that's because you were alone in there and able to sit there 12+ hours in a row..

12 hours practice in a 12-man group already take several weeks, simply for organization issues (putting these 12 people together at the same time).

See what I mean?

That a trial takes longer to be beaten than a solo arena doesn't necessarily mean it is more difficult.

Alcast · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MMMmmmhhh...

I remember you saying that Vet Maelstroem was extremely difficult... especially on your stamplar.
I remember you and others mentioning sitting there 12+ hours in a row to learn and beat it.

Sure, you ended up beating it in a few days/weeks BUT... that's because you were alone in there and able to sit there 12+ hours in a row..

12 hours practice in a 12-man group already take several weeks, simply for organization issues (putting these 12 people together at the same time).

See what I mean?

That a trial takes longer to be beaten than a solo arena doesn't necessarily mean it is more difficult.

took me 5h to complete vMA the first time...on stamplar.

We have ppl rdy....dont need to form a grp at all...and if you call forming a grp makes up the difficulty of the trial then well xD

starlizard70ub17_ESO · February 2016

I think with all the Trial teams and guilds who've been waiting months or longer for a new Trail, I'd be surprised if it wasn't beaten in a week. 4 days is my over/under for it to be beaten.

The_Saint · February 2016

my bet:

After weekend vet hardmode is clear

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

took me 5h to complete vMA the first time...on stamplar.

We have ppl rdy....dont need to form a grp at all...and if you call forming a grp makes up the difficulty of the trial then well xD

And all these 12 people are ready and able to sit there for 5-10+ hours at once ? (are you all guys unemployed ?

)

I don't mean forming a group is part of the difficulty, just that 12 ppl together has more logistical constraints than just one.

Alcast · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

took me 5h to complete vMA the first time...on stamplar.

We have ppl rdy....dont need to form a grp at all...and if you call forming a grp makes up the difficulty of the trial then well xD

And all these 12 people are ready and able to sit there for 5-10+ hours at once ? (are you all guys unemployed ? )

I don't mean forming a group is part of the difficulty, just that 12 ppl together has more logistical constraints than just one.

Ye I understand what you mean haha

Well we waited about 1,5 years for this? Tbh tho we managed to reform a grp just in Orsinium as there is always people leaving because ZOS does not bother scaling the old trials which could be done EASILY
We are ready....especially on the weekend..

actosh · February 2016

The_Saint wrote: »

my bet:

After weekend vet hardmode is clear

yep, think so.

omfgitsbatman · February 2016

I hope this trial murders our souls. I hope it takes 2 months before anybody beats the first boss on vet mode. Just my hopes and dreams though... I think that it will be cleared by the latest of 1 week after live.

Kas · February 2016

i expect normal mode / downscaled /etc to be beaten.
I'm not sure vet will be, don't think hardmore will be. Depends on the commitment of guilds.

Templates, PTS ping etc can be frustrating. For a group of 12, you need many committed players with enough time on their hands. If it takes as long to learn as MSA, it would be less than I'd hope for but I'd still doubt that it will be beaten on PTS.
Simply because I don't think entire groups can achieve as much effective playing time on PTS as solo players (for MSA) can/could

nordickittyhawk · February 2016

If someone beats it... DEMAND A BUFF

ZOS_Finn · February 2016

Howdy folks! Regarding Maw of Lorkhaj on PTS there are a couple of factors at play.

1. We want to convey the difficulty of the Trial to players, which is pretty much the message we have had since the announcement of Thieves Guild. The reason for this message was so that as players get in there, once this goes live, they are not shocked by the difficulty.
2. That being said, we also want to temper this message with the fact that this *IS* PTS. We want players to see and test the encounters within the Trial. If we were to make this a final balance pass for instance, and no one on PTS could get past the first boss for weeks, the potential for unintended consequences if high. We would much rather tone down the difficulty, even slightly, so that players can progress and then make tweaks between PTS and Live.

Long story short... what is on PTS is very difficult, so much so that the majority of players in the game will not be able to do the Veteran version. BUT, it may not be indicative of the final live balance point we desire so, we may make tweaks and add difficulty between PTS and Live.

timidobserver · February 2016

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Howdy folks! Regarding Maw of Lorkhaj on PTS there are a couple of factors at play.

1. We want to convey the difficulty of the Trial to players, which is pretty much the message we have had since the announcement of Thieves Guild. The reason for this message was so that as players get in there, once this goes live, they are not shocked by the difficulty.
2. That being said, we also want to temper this message with the fact that this *IS* PTS. We want players to see and test the encounters within the Trial. If we were to make this a final balance pass for instance, and no one on PTS could get past the first boss for weeks, the potential for unintended consequences if high. We would much rather tone down the difficulty, even slightly, so that players can progress and then make tweaks between PTS and Live.

Long story short... what is on PTS is very difficult, so much so that the majority of players in the game will not be able to do the Veteran version. BUT, it may not be indicative of the final live balance point we desire so, we may make tweaks and add difficulty between PTS and Live.

Translation: If you tryhards beat it on the pts, I will totally make it be even harder on live.

Destruent · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Howdy folks! Regarding Maw of Lorkhaj on PTS there are a couple of factors at play.

1. We want to convey the difficulty of the Trial to players, which is pretty much the message we have had since the announcement of Thieves Guild. The reason for this message was so that as players get in there, once this goes live, they are not shocked by the difficulty.
2. That being said, we also want to temper this message with the fact that this *IS* PTS. We want players to see and test the encounters within the Trial. If we were to make this a final balance pass for instance, and no one on PTS could get past the first boss for weeks, the potential for unintended consequences if high. We would much rather tone down the difficulty, even slightly, so that players can progress and then make tweaks between PTS and Live.

Long story short... what is on PTS is very difficult, so much so that the majority of players in the game will not be able to do the Veteran version. BUT, it may not be indicative of the final live balance point we desire so, we may make tweaks and add difficulty between PTS and Live.

Translation: If you tryhards beat it on the pts, I will totally make it be even harder on live.

Sounds good for me

Maddux · February 2016

What you shouldnt forget is that vMSA is Singleplayercontent and you need just 1 good Player to finish it. The new Trial is for 12 Players and you need more as just 1 good Player to complete it. The Need of 12 good Players they cant play on there own highers the Difficulty.

dro_rasec · February 2016

The first time i complete the vMA took me 6 hours, i don't think 12 persons can stay for so long time. Maybe a raid or two will be able to finish the trial but i doubt that everyone will be able to do it.

Saturn · February 2016

I'm hoping that MoL takes a while to beat and not because it has a boss similar to the RNG-lord Mantikora. Then again it must be hard to design difficult fights without getting into the ridiculous. What they have hopefully done, is have a set of very hard mechanics that punish mistakes harshly, but isn't stupid like ICP's Flesh Sculptor.

The problem with SO's Mantikora fight is that two of the mechanics, the "popcorn" and portal are based purely on RNG (meaning you can get *** because the wrong numbers align). Hopefully they haven't gone down that route again.

The best thing would be if their last boss fight is similar to vDSA's last fight. If you recall it took quite a while before anyone beat it, not the 3-4 months it took for SO to be beaten, but still a long enough time for the first clear to be an amazing feat. Then again, the way the last boss in vDSA was beaten the first time was in a way that was likely not intended (i.e. splitting up the group to avoid the fire debuff). I personally don't like the trend that we as the players have to figure out how to avoid the mechanics to reliably complete certain encounters. vDSA has come to a point where it is no longer impossible to do the fight the intended way (i.e. without splitting), but the way to deal with the Mantikora fight has evolved into a tactic where you avoid the mechanic and straight burn the boss, similar to how people are dealing with the Flesh Sculptor.

Anyway, *fingers crossed* they have done a good job on it and that it isn't beaten the same day they put it on the pts..

EDIT to the OP: MSA is a singleplayer instance where you only rely on yourself. A trial is by that definition a lot harder just because you have to depend on 11 other people doing something, which is out of your control. And while MSA was beaten very quickly, that is not to say that the vast majority of players have beaten it. I think if you were to calculated the amount of individual accounts that have beaten vMSA divided by the number of active players in the game, I think you'd find that only a small percentage of players have beaten it.
SO wasn't beaten for the longest time, simply because the first boss fight was the hardest fight in the trial. And it was difficult for the wrong reasons, as stated above.

rosy_ariete · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Translation: If you tryhards beat it on the pts, I will totally make it be even harder on live.

After this, they'll nerf it as soon as players will start to whine about "difficulty being too high" :P

rosy_ariete · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

However..despite @ZOS_Finn saying the new Trial is very difficult, I am still afraid that it will not take 2 weeks on PTS to complete it..

What do you guys think?

Maybe it will be difficult with templates with only 300 CPs and an "unknown", but legendary gear... although I bet some of the good groups will surely have the chance to beat it on PTS.

Soooo good luck to those that will have the chance to try it out (I don't think my guildies will have the chance to download the PTS to give it a try very soon... italian internet connections are very bad!).

Woeler · February 2016

I hope it won't be beaten and I hope the veteran version will only be beatable by the best of the best.

Woeler · February 2016

dro_rasec wrote: »

The first time i complete the vMA took me 6 hours, i don't think 12 persons can stay for so long time. Maybe a raid or two will be able to finish the trial but i doubt that everyone will be able to do it.

The first kill of the Serpent took over 2 months, just saying.

Joy_Division · February 2016

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Howdy folks! Regarding Maw of Lorkhaj on PTS there are a couple of factors at play.

1. We want to convey the difficulty of the Trial to players, which is pretty much the message we have had since the announcement of Thieves Guild. The reason for this message was so that as players get in there, once this goes live, they are not shocked by the difficulty.
2. That being said, we also want to temper this message with the fact that this *IS* PTS. We want players to see and test the encounters within the Trial. If we were to make this a final balance pass for instance, and no one on PTS could get past the first boss for weeks, the potential for unintended consequences if high. We would much rather tone down the difficulty, even slightly, so that players can progress and then make tweaks between PTS and Live.

Long story short... what is on PTS is very difficult, so much so that the majority of players in the game will not be able to do the Veteran version. BUT, it may not be indicative of the final live balance point we desire so, we may make tweaks and add difficulty between PTS and Live.

This is fair enough and I agree a logical way of going about things.

I still am a little worried about the hesitation and ambiguity in this post ... "we MAY make TWEAKS ..."

I would be much more comfortable with a firm "we WILL makes SUBSTANTIVE changes ..."

We waited 17 months for this. I don't want to see it farmed before 17 days.

Alcast · February 2016

Lets see the nerfs Sanctum got hit in the face with (and all other trials):

No Upscaling (vMA, MoL scaled to 300 CP)
Nerfs/Removal of trash (because ppl QQ too difficult)
Nerf of Boss HP (Serpent got a huge HP nerf)
Nerf to Mechanics > There are no mechanics anymore, they are just skipped

In the same time, players got:
Better Gear
MORE CP
Resource Management? What is that again?

All those changes resulted in DOUBLE the DPS before 1.6..for gods sake, even trippled for some classes

Our first Serpent Hardmode clear used to take 15 minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 15min)
Now the boss is RIPed in 2 Minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 2min)

Yes sure, we got more experience better gear, more cp..more of anything...more of more of more...
However, this would not happen if ZOS would scale those Trials/Dungeons and the Content would stay competitive

Millerman34n · February 2016

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Howdy folks! Regarding Maw of Lorkhaj on PTS there are a couple of factors at play.

1. We want to convey the difficulty of the Trial to players, which is pretty much the message we have had since the announcement of Thieves Guild. The reason for this message was so that as players get in there, once this goes live, they are not shocked by the difficulty.
2. That being said, we also want to temper this message with the fact that this *IS* PTS. We want players to see and test the encounters within the Trial. If we were to make this a final balance pass for instance, and no one on PTS could get past the first boss for weeks, the potential for unintended consequences if high. We would much rather tone down the difficulty, even slightly, so that players can progress and then make tweaks between PTS and Live.

Long story short... what is on PTS is very difficult, so much so that the majority of players in the game will not be able to do the Veteran version. BUT, it may not be indicative of the final live balance point we desire so, we may make tweaks and add difficulty between PTS and Live.

Good it will shut you all up for a while!

Woeler · February 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Lets see the nerfs Sanctum got hit in the face with (and all other trials):

No Upscaling (vMA, MoL scaled to 300 CP)
Nerfs/Removal of trash (because ppl QQ too difficult)
Nerf of Boss HP (Serpent got a huge HP nerf)
Nerf to Mechanics > There are no mechanics anymore, they are just skipped

In the same time, players got:
Better Gear
MORE CP
Resource Management? What is that again?

All those changes resulted in DOUBLE the DPS before 1.6..for gods sake, even trippled for some classes

Our first Serpent Hardmode clear used to take 15 minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 15min)
Now the boss is RIPed in 2 Minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 2min)

Yes sure, we got more experience better gear, more cp..more of anything...more of more of more...
However, this would not happen if ZOS would scale those Trials/Dungeons and the Content would stay competitive

BUTBUTBUT my RP sorc hybrid vampire bow/s+b build won't be able to complete the v16 on hardmode! I am OFFENDED!

Alcast · February 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Lets see the nerfs Sanctum got hit in the face with (and all other trials):

No Upscaling (vMA, MoL scaled to 300 CP)
Nerfs/Removal of trash (because ppl QQ too difficult)
Nerf of Boss HP (Serpent got a huge HP nerf)
Nerf to Mechanics > There are no mechanics anymore, they are just skipped

In the same time, players got:
Better Gear
MORE CP
Resource Management? What is that again?

All those changes resulted in DOUBLE the DPS before 1.6..for gods sake, even trippled for some classes

Our first Serpent Hardmode clear used to take 15 minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 15min)
Now the boss is RIPed in 2 Minutes (SERPENT HARDMODE CLEAR 2min)

Yes sure, we got more experience better gear, more cp..more of anything...more of more of more...
However, this would not happen if ZOS would scale those Trials/Dungeons and the Content would stay competitive

BUTBUTBUT my RP sorc hybrid vampire bow/s+b build won't be able to complete the v16 on hardmode! I am OFFENDED!

Nerf inc

found1779 · February 2016

I do not understand why is the veteran mode going to be so difficult the majority wont be able to beat it why the hell would anyone want to spend real money on something they have no chance of beating

BuggeX · February 2016

the differnece between MA and a regular Trial is that MA is singleplayer, where it depeens on a single Person.
in a Trial are 12 ppls who can make Errors and fail the whole progress

Nifty2g · February 2016

It depends on a couple of things
If it is designed to be beaten by 300 cp or cap

But honestly I think a guild or 2 will beat it seeing as we haven't stopped raiding for the past year every week and we are all in best in slot gear. You can make content like maelstrom zenimax but in my opinion it works well for group rather than solo as a group will have a lot of fun problem solving and find ways to mitigate damage

So ye either mundus, hodor or beyond are gonna beat it

Alcast · February 2016

found1779 wrote: »

I do not understand why is the veteran mode going to be so difficult the majority wont be able to beat it why the hell would anyone want to spend real money on something they have no chance of beating

This is only because most guilds are incompetent and do not have the knowledge of building a proper group.

Which is not entirely their fault as there has been no challenging content for 1.5 years. Most raidguilds vanished after 1.6