Interesting poll and comments.

Well @Wrobel here is the result of attempting to "make tanking fun again" and having most mechanics come down to DPS races.
Doesn't look like it's worked out too well.
Maybe time to rethink things a bit?

@Derra makes a really good point about the lack of place for tanks in PvP. I've run into a lot of "tanky" players on the NA PC server, they are almost all DKs, but there is no pressing reason to actually fight them. Inexperienced players may waste their resources in a futile attempt to kill them, but often they can be avoided because they do not do much damage or have the ability to prevent players from focusing down the other players in their group.

I haven't played other MMOs so I'm not sure mechanically what the traditional difference between a tank and a DPS is, but here it is rather easy to build a robust DPS that has high sustain, which lowers the need for tanks (and healers). Also without softcaps, damage has scaled to such an extent that groups can simply avoid the intended mechanics of fights and render the role of the tank moot. To me passive mitigation of the sort you get from heavy armor is kind of pointless because it is capped (damage is not), it's not *that* much higher than I can get with DPS armor and a few buffs, and I can actively mitigate so much damage via block or dodge or DPS+healing. Why bother if heavy armor offers so little in the way of other utility and it's set bonuses tend to be bad?

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Thank you @Wing @LegendaryNinja , I'll post my thoughts later today. I also have an idea that could help us get some attention on the forums so keep a look out.

Thanks for all of your support, I love this game very much. The combat system and mechanics it's unlike anything I've seen before, It's what made me convert from other mmos to this one. I still want to believe in the game, community, and developers.

Plus DPS wins all day everyday. SO both really.

willymchilybily wrote: »

more than one of the above:

• Pure Tanks in PvP = sucky (no damage/low regen/enemy penetration stacked/high block cost in pvp due to lots of hits/ everything)
• DPS is Required for maelstrom DPS race boss mechanics in stages 5 and 9. with potentially the same being true for stage 1, 4 and 6 (in that order) due to add spawns and mechanics.
• DPS can survive well in PvE content, so some content doesnt need a tank
• it takes longer to do anything tank spec when solo'ing, why bother? Its only the armor/gear that makes you a tank switch it out and get good/mediocre dps instead making it all quicker.
• you get 50% mitigation tops from the armor with alot of waste to reach that cap, but just blocking with sword and shield can do more than this (55% with no clothes on.) Heavy Armor is as good as worthless unless playing truely hard content, which there is not that much of for V16 groups.

They are all great points, I would like to add as well that DPSing makes better use of experience potions as well.

Rossphi wrote: »

Tanking still has a place. They keep forcing us out of our role with untankable bosses, but I still think a good tank is better than 3 DPS.interrupting, hitting synergies, Debuffing, Rooting adds in an aoe, and placing a boss in a certain location are vital to any dungeon. It's just those times where you can't tank that you get most complaints. Even then it's usually weak dps that's the actual problem.

Additionally there seems to be a lot of Dungeon Bosses without Damage Parity. Certain classes of boss a DPS can Tank, while others you can take a lot of damage without shields and/or blocking, and I'm talking all at VR16. For example in a Veteran Dungeon boss one boss might do 5000 damage, while another do 10000. In similar MMOs enemies with a level has a damage range.

Purdomination33 wrote: »

The answer is simple: time vs opportunity.

It seems many people who participate in this forum are the true die hard players. For the die hard players having multiple V16's equipped with full Legendary gear is commonplace. However the vast majority of players cannot invest the time to create several high end characters each with a specific role in mind. How many times have you read "it just takes 8 hours of grinding to complete xyz, I did it in a day". Or when talking about builds "You need Gold everything, 2 monster sets, Robust Agility rings and 501 Champion points for this build". Those who can dedicate that amount of time are the exceptions not the standard.

Whether it is done consciously or not most of us are forced to create a character that can participate in as many aspects of the game as possible. Dungeons and trials can take large chunks of time so creating a character who is most effective in that style of content does not make much sense.

Obviously there will be exceptions where people have found a niche in tanking. This simply makes them rare opposed to non-existent.

Also, I wonder when the VR system s removed, obtaining gold gear every 40 to 50 CPs would be a hassle, would it still be advisable to have best in slot gear? Would ZOZ make it a little easier to obtain and/or earn gold mats?

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Derra makes a really good point about the lack of place for tanks in PvP. I've run into a lot of "tanky" players on the NA PC server, they are almost all DKs, but there is no pressing reason to actually fight them. Inexperienced players may waste their resources in a futile attempt to kill them, but often they can be avoided because they do not do much damage or have the ability to prevent players from focusing down the other players in their group.

I haven't played other MMOs so I'm not sure mechanically what the traditional difference between a tank and a DPS is, but here it is rather easy to build a robust DPS that has high sustain, which lowers the need for tanks (and healers). Also without softcaps, damage has scaled to such an extent that groups can simply avoid the intended mechanics of fights and render the role of the tank moot. To me passive mitigation of the sort you get from heavy armor is kind of pointless because it is capped (damage is not), it's not *that* much higher than I can get with DPS armor and a few buffs, and I can actively mitigate so much damage via block or dodge or DPS+healing. Why bother if heavy armor offers so little in the way of other utility and it's set bonuses tend to be bad?

I believe someone mention in other MMOS, a Tank could Taunt, but the other player had the option of attacking another player anyways, while the damage would be reduced. Great post @Joy_Division

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Re-rolled a tank because my guild was lacking tanks.

Found out that it is unnecessary and boring in 90% of the content (as many people said, in most instances, 3DPS + 1 healer is more fun and just as efficient).
Also found out that in instances where tanking is actually necessary and useful, it is also extremely difficult.
Then found out that you're not recognized / appreciated by players. You know, like the drum player in a rock band, but all the girlz are in love with the singers and guitarists.
Then found out that you're REQUIRED to be an excellent DPSer too, no matter what (looking at you, planar inhibitor).

I was going to say "all of the above," but this pretty much sums it up.

A good tank makes dungeon runs go smoother and faster, but if you are tanking with two great DPSers, you wonder why you are even there except for the final boss fight. If you are running with weak DPSers, everything is either your fault or the healer's, not that red circle they keep standing in.

Meanwhile, everything else you do in the game takes longer and in many instances drops less loot (WBs in Orsinium, Imperial City TV stones). Tank abilities have been nerfed into the ground. Respecing a tank in full gold gear to deal with the blocking regen nerf was NOT fun.

For me, tanking has become utterly unrewarding except when running with friends. Or when teaching a new chum a dungeon - tanking for them can take the pressure off and give them a chance to learn the mechanics. I'm starting to think of my new sorc as my main and my tank as a crafter, farmer and group filler.

Since ZOS has decided to make this game all damage burst all the time, I wonder why the group finder doesn't offer the option to select the specific roles you are looking to fill instead of hard coding in the 2 DPS + 1 healer + 1 tank grouping?

Reevster wrote: »

Easy fix to make everyone able to "tank" is the lower the DPS you can do the tanky you become, the more DPS you do they less tanky you become, which is sort of the way it is now but make the physical and spell resist with a higher cap as your dps lowers, like up to 75 percent and down to like 25 percent the more DPS your able to do.... Done through CPs tree so you just cant put on a crappy weapon to lower your dps and then your a tank etc.



Then even light armor players could "tank".... well they still need to know how of coarse.

Reminds me of my Sorc Stamina DPS, with 85% weapon critical, and healing for 60% of that damage, I was able to solo a Normal level Dungeon at VR16.

couchkyle25_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Would you mind explaining to me what the role of playing a tank in pvp was before the perceived nerfs to tanking?

In my opinion there never was a true tanking role for pvp in eso simply because tanking requires people to attack you or other means to interact with them. Esos combat system never offered that for tanks (light armor s&b magica DKs weren´t tanks imho - they were incredibly durable dps).
Tanks have only ever been annoying. I personally feel they should have purpose - but i think that just not dying to annoy your opponent shouldn´t be said purpose nor should that playstyle be vaible in any form.

Maybe my personal idea of what a tank is or does isn´t fitting here - who knows.

No you're absolutely right, Tanks have never had a purpose in PVP, and absolutely never will. I never meant to imply otherwise. It does not change the fact however that the entire game, not just Cyrodiil, is being developed in favor of DPS.

I agree but with a caveat. They have no role in Cyrodil style PvP as designed now. In arena type play they can have an important role. With some capture dynamic changes perhaps something can be done for Cyrodil.

The "bunker" builds have been he most recent meta in GW2 arena style play, and were just subject to nerfs due to over-effectiveness. At times bunker has been a meta for certain classes in GW2's RvR (the equivalent of Cyrodil there). Bunker is basically a tank build. The key is giving players a reason to want to spend the time to take them down. So holding points via presence in arena play gives a purpose to the hard to kill tank type build.

This does nothing for tanks here and now. This does nothing for armor being subject to cap, and how resistances work with CPs, meaning DPS can make builds as durable as tanks. But it is a point to consider on the PvP side as Zeni says they are thinking about adding arena style play. The key is giving a reason for wanting to take town a tank.

I'm a tank and I also have a couple dps as well. They need to make dungeons more challenging and hit harder so u can't just go in with 3dps and healer. The only dungeons u can't do without a tank is white gold and prison but sooner or later ppl will start running it without a tank

My reason is that I perceive a slow creep in endgame content that's simply not complete-able as a tank build. I'm very curious to see if the new trial has "DPS or GTFO" mechanics like the Planar Inhibitor, for example.

At any rate, I still enjoy tanking when needed, so I'll keep doing it. ^^

LegendaryNinja wrote: »

Arkraptor wrote: »

Ha, I still love tanking. I've got a NB sap tank now, after retiring my templar tank (needed her as healer instead). It's been super fun. The stam regen nerf doesn't really affect NB tank at all, so we've got amazing sustain. Lack cc, but it can be compensated mostly (not 100%) with good positioning. That said, I don't find a lack of tank even while I'm dps-ing -- been having a harder time finding healers tbh.

Yeah, I think a lot of players underestimate NB's as Tanks.

For sure (other than for trials; I dread Possessed Mantikora but will probably have to run it soon...). Being able to pull an average of 8k dps on crematorial guard is jaw-dropping. d: (My highest was just shy of 10k.)