Surprise Attack OP?

mb10 · February 2016

First wrecking blow, now surprise attack. People just keep moaning about how stam nightblades are killing them. What do you expect them to do?

XANTITHESISX · February 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

The problem I have with Surprise Attack is that if I have already hit a NB or the NB has already hit me then guess what?.. Its no longer a surprise.!!!

As a matter of fact, I would say that it would be no surprise to see the recap say... Surprise attack, Mass Hysteria, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack...

I think you get the point...

or Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack...

I think I missed the point. Are you saying that spamming SA is a problem?

Jabs, Jabs, Jabs, Jabs.
WB, WB, WB, WB
Whip, Whip, Whip, Whip
Overload, Overload, Overload, Overload.

Spamming one skill over and over regardless of class reflects lack of skill.. NBs seems to get the brunt because they are everywhere.

Autolycus · February 2016

revonine wrote: »

You can't play anything these days without getting QQ-ed at by someone. Jabs spammer. cloak spammer. WB spammer. Shield spammer. They're always total hypocrites though.

It's true. Everything in this discussion since I checked yesterday is mindless ranting about how this over here is broken, that over there is bugged, this is OP... etc.

The fact of the matter is that statistically they are balanced. The numbers add up (at least in every analysis I've seen so far), and in practice, each of these skills that are being taken to task are viable and competitive inherently. Until someone finds a way to exploit one or more of these skills in an unfair manner that it is not accessible to other players, then the only real argument that can be made is that the other player was better.

The skills aren't OP, they aren't unfair, and the people who are complaining about these alleged imbalances (in most cases) haven't played the class about which they are complaining or calling for nerfs.

Yes, there are things that need to be fixed, such as Take Flight and Toppling Charge skill. But people need to be realistic. Those things aren't broken because SA is an instant cast. They're not going to get fixed with a nerf to cloak. Go jump into a group, gank someone, and try to cloak away. Guaranteed you will fail at least 20-30% of the time, because it's not an "I win" button. It doesn't simply work b/c the skill exists. It takes tact, planning, an escape plan, etc. Those who fail to properly implement cloak/SA in practice are taken down.

omfgitsbatman · February 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

Why not just leave NBs alone and buff Templars and magicka DKs

Because when 'sorc' where OP, they got nerfed, when dk's was they got nerfed, when templar wasn't they got nerfed.

Now because nb's are OP all the nb's who have been calling for nerf's for other classes for a year all of a sudden don't want anymore 'nerf's just buff the other classes.

Where was this buff the other class thought when magicka nb's were top? or sorc?, it wasn't instead all the other classes were nerfed apart from nb's and now it's time for nb's to be adjusted you don't accept it.

Lol. When did sorcs get nerged. Stam got a buff and mag still destroys. Is your "nerf" shield breaker? Outside of that maybe negate. Sorc shields still op. They need to raise the damage shield and make it crit. But I digress.

We ignoring the 50% dmg shield debuff? Or the fact is has a direct counter item set to it's class defence or the fact bolt escape has a 50% increase? Or the fact healing ward got double nerfed with the healing + dmg shield nerf, which is a sorc main heal.

Nb has never received any negative adjustment to their skills.

50% shield debug and damage debug so that equals out.

I will never think of shield breaker as a nerf to sorcs. One it effects all shields for all classes. Two, it is literally the same as any other class getting hit with a light attack. It does the sender damn amount. So your saying because ppl can light attack that is a nerf?

I did forget about streak so on I can concede that. That said, it's overall effect is minimal to a decent player anyway. Decent players never spammed that but used it strategically. Same with dodgeroll good players didn't spam but used strategically.

Healing ward is still crazy good. Heals like a boss and gives solid shiled. Especially for sorcs with champ points in bastion.

Last, you can't use abilities that are available to all to show a particular class got nerfed nor a particular gear set. Healing ward is used by all mag builds besides Temps and even then some temps.

But do other classes run around with shields as their defence? 2k unblockable dmg isn't exactly something you can ignore, ever had someone with a weighted bow LA you for 2k each? Shieldbreaker is dangerous with a good players, a LA-Ransack-Bash player with shieldbreaker auto wins a sorc. Only class so have a set directly counter it's class defence, it's like having a set that doesn't allow nbs to stealth in a 50m range around you.

Bwahahahaha that's actually great. I'd buy that Would be hilarious xD

The set exists... It's the healing jewelery set from aa/hel ra. The weapon damage debuff that it gives pulls NB'S out of stealth and they can't get back into stealth until the debuff goes away. I know a templar that runs ritual and this set and just melts NB'S

Autolycus · February 2016

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

The problem I have with Surprise Attack is that if I have already hit a NB or the NB has already hit me then guess what?.. Its no longer a surprise.!!!

As a matter of fact, I would say that it would be no surprise to see the recap say... Surprise attack, Mass Hysteria, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack...

I think you get the point...

or Surprise Attack, Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack...

I think I missed the point. Are you saying that spamming SA is a problem?

Jabs, Jabs, Jabs, Jabs.
WB, WB, WB, WB
Whip, Whip, Whip, Whip
Overload, Overload, Overload, Overload.

Spamming one skill over and over regardless of class reflects lack of skill.. NBs seems to get the brunt because they are everywhere.

I agree completely. Back when DK vamps owned all of Cyrodiil, guess what we saw? Nothing but DK vamps. It's the same situation.

Now people are going to say, "well Auto, back then they brought down the nerf hammer on vampires because of that." Yes, they did. Why did they? Because vampires were inherently overpowered. The same is not true for SA and cloak. They are comparable to the skills and passives of other classes. Each one has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

So far, on every single post about nerfing NBs or about how inherently overpowered they are, I have yet to see any hard data that supports this claim. I've played a NB for two years, and I've played each of the other classes extensively, albeit not my main. I don't even use cloak in Cyrodiil, and I still take over a hundred kills and less than twenty deaths every time I enter Cyrodiil. (On a weekend when I spend most of the day out in Cyrodiil, I will take 300+ kills, over 100 KBs and usually a 10:1 KDR or better). Admittedly I'm not the best player (nor the best NB) out there, but at the very least I know the strengths and weaknesses of a NB. I know the other classes pretty well, and regardless of which class I take into Cyrodiil, I still do quite well. Those who understand each class, it's strengths and weaknesses, and are prepared to counter the abilities of the other class, are going to win.

Lord-Otto · February 2016

So, Auto, you come in here telling us NBs are not OP and you try to justify that by showing off your high K/D as a Nightblade? Yeah, fail. Sorry, bud.

Nothing adds up here and the numbers are not equal. Surprise Attack hits harder than Biting Jabs and is bursty and can be cancelled for even more damage. Major Fracture does not make sense at all and we all know how Nightblades get by far the best passives.
And compare that to the Dragonknight's spam skill which got nerfed over and over again. Or the Sorcerer's... Right, they don't even have one.

Nightblades are OP, period. It's well-known. Cyrodiil isn't overrun with them because they're so prestiguous, Be honest and stop deluding other players. Vampires got nerfed, DKs got nerfed, Sorcs got Shieldbreaker. Because of people (including NBs) qq'ing. Your time has come, and you know that.

Edziu · February 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, Auto, you come in here telling us NBs are not OP and you try to justify that by showing off your high K/D as a Nightblade? Yeah, fail. Sorry, bud.

Nothing adds up here and the numbers are not equal. Surprise Attack hits harder than Biting Jabs and is bursty and can be cancelled for even more damage. Major Fracture does not make sense at all and we all know how Nightblades get by far the best passives.
And compare that to the Dragonknight's spam skill which got nerfed over and over again. Or the Sorcerer's... Right, they don't even have one.

Nightblades are OP, period. It's well-known. Cyrodiil isn't overrun with them because they're so prestiguous, Be honest and stop deluding other players. Vampires got nerfed, DKs got nerfed, Sorcs got Shieldbreaker. Because of people (including NBs) qq'ing. Your time has come, and you know that.

shieldbreaker what is for lame.....but what i writed....@Autolycus KBs are on normal pvp cyrodil...so on 75%+ normally unskiled pugs

and please......magica nb have more survivability than stamina and not much less dmg, he has better chance to win longer fights agains dk, sorc.

and please to this NB OP haha, I thnik you dont played this class or you are noob or playing with not good build or on templar

with most pugs.....i always winning...because they are pugs from zergs, nothing specially to fight...i dueled some and saw duels...and i can say stamina/magica dk is more powerfull for 1vs1, 1vsx in open fight, nb need to do this vampier with deto to fast wiping goups...when dk dont need it to survive this and win also, sorc similarly...thanks shields stacking in open fight...agains melee (some all stmaina NB and some magica) he has more more to win.

I can say short...NB is the best for this ganging, OP, but for open fights...nb isnt then OP, more OP are dk and sorc in these fight....ok nb also is so good with good player...but more open fights with good players dk and sorcs are more op than nb

go maybe to guild with organizing duels and see then duels with exp players, you will see then...dk rules in duels and sorcs

Autolycus · February 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, Auto, you come in here telling us NBs are not OP and you try to justify that by showing off your high K/D as a Nightblade? Yeah, fail. Sorry, bud.

Nothing adds up here and the numbers are not equal. Surprise Attack hits harder than Biting Jabs and is bursty and can be cancelled for even more damage. Major Fracture does not make sense at all and we all know how Nightblades get by far the best passives.
And compare that to the Dragonknight's spam skill which got nerfed over and over again. Or the Sorcerer's... Right, they don't even have one.

Nightblades are OP, period. It's well-known. Cyrodiil isn't overrun with them because they're so prestiguous, Be honest and stop deluding other players. Vampires got nerfed, DKs got nerfed, Sorcs got Shieldbreaker. Because of people (including NBs) qq'ing. Your time has come, and you know that.

First of all, my KDR and KB streaks are not "high," and come from nearly two years of experience, not because I spam SA and cloak. I do not use either of these skills, so your argument that my boasting and "showing off" while using them is mute. The typical "just cloak away and SA" argument doesn't apply to me; These aren't ganks I'm quoting. I will be in your face in a full-on duel until one of us dies. Add to this the fact that I know there are many better players than I am, who get far higher KDRs, and the fact I can tear apart NBs on any of my other characters. This comes from experience and a thorough understanding of the class. My KDR and KB records are similar, if not higher, for my stam sorc and my dk.

The bolded portions above are both inaccurate statements. I ran an analysis of SA versus Jabs, and the data was inconclusive (post #135). I won't believe your claim to it being overpowered until you support it with data, just as I have told many others. If you've seen any of my other posts, then you know I advocate for balance where balance is due.

Edziu wrote: »

I can say short...NB is the best for this ganging, OP, but for open fights...nb isnt then OP, more OP are dk and sorc in these fight....ok nb also is so good with good player...but more open fights with good players dk and sorcs are more op than nb

go maybe to guild with organizing duels and see then duels with exp players, you will see then...dk rules in duels and sorcs

This is my experience too. I lead dueling groups twice a week, and I have gone up against some very good players. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but every fight has been fair and honest. Sorcs and DKs have several strong answers to NBs - and this includes SA and cloak.

The argument that these two things are inherently OP is growing stale. The reason these calls have been made is due to a lack of understanding of the class and its weaknesses, or a lack of will to counter them (like people refusing to use detect pots). It's like saying "hey that DK is using petrify on me and it's getting me killed. I could use this immovable pot, but I'd rather die instead, and then go complain about how OP DKs are."

bowmanz607 · February 2016

Abob wrote: »

Suprise Attack is the strongest stam ability in the game, way better than wrecking blow, but because 80% of players are NB's we are not allowed to say it.

it is strongest instant dps stam ability. WB hits much harder. Even jabs hits harder with the right setup.

leepalmer95 · February 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Suprise Attack is the strongest stam ability in the game, way better than wrecking blow, but because 80% of players are NB's we are not allowed to say it.

it is strongest instant dps stam ability. WB hits much harder. Even jabs hits harder with the right setup.

Wb has a 1s charge up and while it can be cancelled with a medium weave most people don't because it does less dmg and 1 button is easy mode.

SA is instant and gives major fracture and when cancelled with a medium weave does comparable or more dmg than wb.

Lets not compare charge skills to instant skills. It's like comparing take flight to wb. Though for some reason the fact a SA does more dmg than jabs is a bit strange considering it's instant and jabs isn't and needs to be aimed.

Autolycus · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Suprise Attack is the strongest stam ability in the game, way better than wrecking blow, but because 80% of players are NB's we are not allowed to say it.

it is strongest instant dps stam ability. WB hits much harder. Even jabs hits harder with the right setup.

Wb has a 1s charge up and while it can be cancelled with a medium weave most people don't because it does less dmg and 1 button is easy mode.

SA is instant and gives major fracture and when cancelled with a medium weave does comparable or more dmg than wb.

Lets not compare charge skills to instant skills. It's like comparing take flight to wb. Though for some reason the fact a SA does more dmg than jabs is a bit strange considering it's instant and jabs isn't and needs to be aimed.

Both of these bolded statements are flawed. SA is instant and does less base damage than WB. Adding a cancel to SA is sure to make the skill more efficient, yes. But that doesn't automatically make it better, because WB has heavy attack weaves which net virtually limitless stamina potential, and has been tested and proven to be equal or higher damage in most scenarios than spamming WB. SA doesn't do more damage than Jabs, that's simply false.

If you're not going to compare SA to jabs and WB, then what are you going to compare it to? Those are the best options for comparison; they are the bread&butter of 2h and stamplar builds. Comparing them is totally fine as long you equate them by factoring in the cast time. WB and Jabs both have a cast time that offsets the higher base damage they deal. Heavy attack weaving and animation cancelling are both viable tactics for WB and Jabs too, and that's why people do it.

Adding things like cancelling and weaving is good for the sake of comparison. Doing so is far more accurate than simply comparing tooltips (which apparently a lot of people consider a quality analysis) so long as every factor is accounted for.

Chori · February 2016

the amount of sodium chloride in this thread is outrageous lol

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Chori wrote: »

the amount of sodium chloride in this thread is outrageous lol

EP NA-PC
v16 Stamina NB Imperial - Choripan
v16 Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara

Doesn't add anything, brings bias sarcastic comment. Good post man keep farming those stars.

Abob · February 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Abob wrote: »

Suprise Attack is the strongest stam ability in the game, way better than wrecking blow, but because 80% of players are NB's we are not allowed to say it.

it is strongest instant dps stam ability. WB hits much harder. Even jabs hits harder with the right setup.

In a game full of bugs and lag the Instant part is quite important.

Chori · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

the amount of sodium chloride in this thread is outrageous lol

EP NA-PC
v16 Stamina NB Imperial - Choripan
v16 Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara

Doesn't add anything, brings bias sarcastic comment. Good post man keep farming those stars.

I dont need to add anything, someone already pointed out comparing SA to an AOE it's a little bit ridiculous and to add to your point, also biased.

I'm here for the fun, bring moar salt plz.

Dr_Ganknstein · February 2016

v16 Stamina NB Imperial - Choripan
v16 Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara

Lol, this guy realized NBs were so OP that he rolled two of them. Thats awesome!

leepalmer95 · February 2016

Chori wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

the amount of sodium chloride in this thread is outrageous lol

EP NA-PC
v16 Stamina NB Imperial - Choripan
v16 Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara

Doesn't add anything, brings bias sarcastic comment. Good post man keep farming those stars.

I dont need to add anything, someone already pointed out comparing SA to an AOE it's a little bit ridiculous and to add to your point, also biased.

I'm here for the fun, bring moar salt plz.

I have 1 of each character. I'm just calling it as i felt it was when i played them all.

Aoe? Have you ever played a templar, people don't use jabs because it's 'aoe'.

Lets compare SA the instant high dmg skill with a stun and armour debuff to other single target abilities shall we?

Ransack - Does 30% less dmg, doesn't have a stun. Have to slot s+b so actually use it.
Whip - Whip = chilli noodle compare to SA.

Oh thats it. Out of all the single target abilities that are actually useful to spam, SA is so far ahead.

Lets compare it to channelled skills?

Jabs - Does less dmg, have to actually aim jabs, stun is on last hit only, only gives weapon crit which is the same buff as camo and crit pot. Oh and you get 2x La + 2x SA in the time it takes someone to 1x La + 1x Jabs, SA have more utility with it's longer stun and armour debuff and does more dmg overall.

Wb - A whole other can of worms, charge up sure, broke range and broken cc, Requires you to slot 2h, only dps skill of some builds. SA is still better hence why nb's don't run around with a 2h and use WB. Some do but there just baddies.

Tryxus · February 2016

Woah

Serious case of class-ism here...

bowmanz607 · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

the amount of sodium chloride in this thread is outrageous lol

EP NA-PC
v16 Stamina NB Imperial - Choripan
v16 Magicka NB High Elf - Lîndara

Doesn't add anything, brings bias sarcastic comment. Good post man keep farming those stars.

I dont need to add anything, someone already pointed out comparing SA to an AOE it's a little bit ridiculous and to add to your point, also biased.

I'm here for the fun, bring moar salt plz.

I have 1 of each character. I'm just calling it as i felt it was when i played them all.

Aoe? Have you ever played a templar, people don't use jabs because it's 'aoe'.

Lets compare SA the instant high dmg skill with a stun and armour debuff to other single target abilities shall we?

Ransack - Does 30% less dmg, doesn't have a stun. Have to slot s+b so actually use it.
Whip - Whip = chilli noodle compare to SA.

Oh thats it. Out of all the single target abilities that are actually useful to spam, SA is so far ahead.

Lets compare it to channelled skills?

Jabs - Does less dmg, have to actually aim jabs, stun is on last hit only, only gives weapon crit which is the same buff as camo and crit pot. Oh and you get 2x La + 2x SA in the time it takes someone to 1x La + 1x Jabs, SA have more utility with it's longer stun and armour debuff and does more dmg overall.

Wb - A whole other can of worms, charge up sure, broke range and broken cc, Requires you to slot 2h, only dps skill of some builds. SA is still better hence why nb's don't run around with a 2h and use WB. Some do but there just baddies.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240379/suggested-nb-changes/p1

This is my thought on NB changes if your interested. At least note my SA suggestions.

Lord-Otto · February 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, Auto, you come in here telling us NBs are not OP and you try to justify that by showing off your high K/D as a Nightblade? Yeah, fail. Sorry, bud.

Nothing adds up here and the numbers are not equal. Surprise Attack hits harder than Biting Jabs and is bursty and can be cancelled for even more damage. Major Fracture does not make sense at all and we all know how Nightblades get by far the best passives.
And compare that to the Dragonknight's spam skill which got nerfed over and over again. Or the Sorcerer's... Right, they don't even have one.

Nightblades are OP, period. It's well-known. Cyrodiil isn't overrun with them because they're so prestiguous, Be honest and stop deluding other players. Vampires got nerfed, DKs got nerfed, Sorcs got Shieldbreaker. Because of people (including NBs) qq'ing. Your time has come, and you know that.

First of all, my KDR and KB streaks are not "high," and come from nearly two years of experience, not because I spam SA and cloak. I do not use either of these skills, so your argument that my boasting and "showing off" while using them is mute. The typical "just cloak away and SA" argument doesn't apply to me; These aren't ganks I'm quoting. I will be in your face in a full-on duel until one of us dies. Add to this the fact that I know there are many better players than I am, who get far higher KDRs, and the fact I can tear apart NBs on any of my other characters. This comes from experience and a thorough understanding of the class. My KDR and KB records are similar, if not higher, for my stam sorc and my dk.

The bolded portions above are both inaccurate statements. I ran an analysis of SA versus Jabs, and the data was inconclusive (post #135). I won't believe your claim to it being overpowered until you support it with data, just as I have told many others. If you've seen any of my other posts, then you know I advocate for balance where balance is due.

Edziu wrote: »

I can say short...NB is the best for this ganging, OP, but for open fights...nb isnt then OP, more OP are dk and sorc in these fight....ok nb also is so good with good player...but more open fights with good players dk and sorcs are more op than nb

go maybe to guild with organizing duels and see then duels with exp players, you will see then...dk rules in duels and sorcs

This is my experience too. I lead dueling groups twice a week, and I have gone up against some very good players. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but every fight has been fair and honest. Sorcs and DKs have several strong answers to NBs - and this includes SA and cloak.

The argument that these two things are inherently OP is growing stale. The reason these calls have been made is due to a lack of understanding of the class and its weaknesses, or a lack of will to counter them (like people refusing to use detect pots). It's like saying "hey that DK is using petrify on me and it's getting me killed. I could use this immovable pot, but I'd rather die instead, and then go complain about how OP DKs are."

Just weave a light attack and your damage output is higher. Also, in this meta, burst is far superior to channels. And then comes the Major Fracture, raising the dps even more. And stun. Flame Lash got its stun removed, so why are NBs allowed to keep it?
And sorcs. They don't have one at all. How do you justify that?

Jade1986 · February 2016

Cody wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jabs doesn't work on shields either, and how many times are you realistically going to hit all 4 jabs on a half decent player?

Your lucky if you hit them 2/3 times at most. You actually have to aim jabs.

Jabs doesn't work on shields, but if were going to include passive, SA gives the user 5.2k armour on use as well.

Plus all nb's have high crit which high crit dmg. 50%+ is the min but usually i see people with 70% with 180%~ crit dmg.

Thats were SA suddenly starts doing stupid dmg.

Plus the first SA will be empowered usually. If ambushed in or the HA/SA from stealth weave will kill someone or take them to 25% hp.

Looks balanced to me.... <
( Sarcasm)

70-100% crit chance is also ridiculous in my opinion.

Honestly crit chance should be capped at 30 %

dday3six · February 2016

laced wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jabs doesn't work on shields either, and how many times are you realistically going to hit all 4 jabs on a half decent player?

Your lucky if you hit them 2/3 times at most. You actually have to aim jabs.

Jabs doesn't work on shields, but if were going to include passive, SA gives the user 5.2k armour on use as well.

Plus all nb's have high crit which high crit dmg. 50%+ is the min but usually i see people with 70% with 180%~ crit dmg.

Thats were SA suddenly starts doing stupid dmg.

Plus the first SA will be empowered usually. If ambushed in or the HA/SA from stealth weave will kill someone or take them to 25% hp.

Looks balanced to me.... <
( Sarcasm)

70-100% crit chance is also ridiculous in my opinion.

Honestly crit chance should be capped at 30 %

So you want to remove any hope of Stamina builds ever competing with Magicka?

Acsvf · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Though for some reason the fact a SA does more dmg than jabs is a bit strange considering it's instant and jabs isn't and needs to be aimed.

Let's just assume that major fracture increases damage by 25%(It probably doesn't, but that isn't relevant).
9324*1.25=11655
Now let's take biting jabs.
1388*9.6=13324.8

SA probably deals more damage over time, but I infer from your inclusion of "considering it's instant" that you were thinking of the damage from a single button press. Without considering passives(especially burning light), biting jabs comes out on top in that regard.

TwoFingersInCider · February 2016

did you know that if you spec right, NB can get up to 65k health with atleast 20k in both magicka and stamina. And physical and spell resistance.. But not optimal for tank in pvp/pve though.. Hey guess what? In all classes, NB can only do this.

http://i.imgur.com/G7qDlhb.png

Edziu · February 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Just weave a light attack and your damage output is higher. Also, in this meta, burst is far superior to channels. And then comes the Major Fracture, raising the dps even more. And stun. Flame Lash got its stun removed, so why are NBs allowed to keep it?
And sorcs. They don't have one at all. How do you justify that?

try to read and understand please

like all other attcks from stealth....you can stun with LA, HA and any ability on stamina from stealth lol

Alucardo · February 2016

Edziu wrote: »

My wrecking blow doesn't even have the numbers on this tooltip, and it's a 1 second cast.

Nerf.

Edziu · February 2016

.

Edziu · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

My wrecking blow doesn't even have the numbers on this tooltip, and it's a 1 second cast.

Nerf.

SOO

1# wreck is on pvp without max stam food and dawnbreaker
2# wrec is on pve with max stam food and dawnbreaker

1# SA max stam food and dawnbreaker on pve
2# SA no max stam food and without dawnbreaker for pvp

all tooltips are with weapon dmg buffs so gg, nerf yourself @Alucardo

Autolycus · February 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, Auto, you come in here telling us NBs are not OP and you try to justify that by showing off your high K/D as a Nightblade? Yeah, fail. Sorry, bud.

Nothing adds up here and the numbers are not equal. Surprise Attack hits harder than Biting Jabs and is bursty and can be cancelled for even more damage. Major Fracture does not make sense at all and we all know how Nightblades get by far the best passives.
And compare that to the Dragonknight's spam skill which got nerfed over and over again. Or the Sorcerer's... Right, they don't even have one.

Nightblades are OP, period. It's well-known. Cyrodiil isn't overrun with them because they're so prestiguous, Be honest and stop deluding other players. Vampires got nerfed, DKs got nerfed, Sorcs got Shieldbreaker. Because of people (including NBs) qq'ing. Your time has come, and you know that.

First of all, my KDR and KB streaks are not "high," and come from nearly two years of experience, not because I spam SA and cloak. I do not use either of these skills, so your argument that my boasting and "showing off" while using them is mute. The typical "just cloak away and SA" argument doesn't apply to me; These aren't ganks I'm quoting. I will be in your face in a full-on duel until one of us dies. Add to this the fact that I know there are many better players than I am, who get far higher KDRs, and the fact I can tear apart NBs on any of my other characters. This comes from experience and a thorough understanding of the class. My KDR and KB records are similar, if not higher, for my stam sorc and my dk.

The bolded portions above are both inaccurate statements. I ran an analysis of SA versus Jabs, and the data was inconclusive (post #135). I won't believe your claim to it being overpowered until you support it with data, just as I have told many others. If you've seen any of my other posts, then you know I advocate for balance where balance is due.

Edziu wrote: »

I can say short...NB is the best for this ganging, OP, but for open fights...nb isnt then OP, more OP are dk and sorc in these fight....ok nb also is so good with good player...but more open fights with good players dk and sorcs are more op than nb

go maybe to guild with organizing duels and see then duels with exp players, you will see then...dk rules in duels and sorcs

This is my experience too. I lead dueling groups twice a week, and I have gone up against some very good players. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but every fight has been fair and honest. Sorcs and DKs have several strong answers to NBs - and this includes SA and cloak.

The argument that these two things are inherently OP is growing stale. The reason these calls have been made is due to a lack of understanding of the class and its weaknesses, or a lack of will to counter them (like people refusing to use detect pots). It's like saying "hey that DK is using petrify on me and it's getting me killed. I could use this immovable pot, but I'd rather die instead, and then go complain about how OP DKs are."

Just weave a light attack and your damage output is higher. Also, in this meta, burst is far superior to channels. And then comes the Major Fracture, raising the dps even more. And stun. Flame Lash got its stun removed, so why are NBs allowed to keep it?
And sorcs. They don't have one at all. How do you justify that?

The stun only occurs from stealth, and any class can do this with even light and heavy attacks, so I don't see why you think it's so overpowered. Fracture can be obtained from Puncture which is already flying through Cyrodiil as a viable means of damage output, and it is. I'll acknowledge the concern that it comes from a passive in the class tree, sure. But considering how every other class has an ability (razor armor, rune focus, lightning form) that can grant a counter to this, I don't take issue with it.

It would be okay to take issue with Major Fracture if every other comparable skill didn't give extra damage too. Jabs has a 25% chance to do something like 3000 extra damage. WB grants empower... do I need to recap that? Whip is in dire need of a buff, but I emphasize yet again that it's not b/c of SA that whip needs love.

I still don't see an inherent imbalance here.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Sharee wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

You are comparing an aoe skill to a single target skill.

In addition to that, he is comparing a single skill(jabs) to a single skill + a passive(surprise attack by itself does not do major resolve or major ward, that comes from a separate passive).

A more fair comparison would be if he added burning light passive to the jabs - that increases the damage output considerably.

[edit] hmm even without burning light the damage against a single target does not look bad for jabs.

1388 with each strike, and iirc there are three four(it's in the tooltip dummy ) strikes during the channel, so 3x1388=4164 4x1388=5552
then, the closest target takes 140% more damage, so 4164 + 140% = 9993 5552 + 140% = 13324

Then you add burning light. Hmm.

That is not how it works. Do you even Templar?