Surprise Attack OP?

dday3six · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

...Aoe it only useful in pve, it's not that great in pvp...

What? My apologies I couldn't hear you over the sound of zergs spamming Steel Tornado, Impulse, Magicka Detentation, and Sap Essence. I think what you meant to say was 'AOE is not that great in duels'.

leepalmer95 · January 2016

dday3six wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

...Aoe it only useful in pve, it's not that great in pvp...

What? My apologies I couldn't hear you over the sound of zergs spamming Steel Tornado, Impulse, Magicka Detentation, and Sap Essence. I think what you meant to say was 'AOE is not that great in duels'.

The AOE on jabs is not that great, read the discussion.

Also a zerg spamming anything will still kill you, just because bad players decide to spam 1 button doesn't make aoe that useful is actual pvp e.g. Not zerging or ganking, actually fighting someone who is aware your there.

Edziu · January 2016

Barlthump wrote: »

And I use, double take, camo hunter, mass hysteria, Ambush and surprise attack (heavy weave animation cancel), death stroke with killers blade to finish? Only difference is you use them after a fight starts while I run around with my buffs all the time even when not in combat. Ask anyone who plays with me I constantly use my buffs even if there is no one around just so I'm ready. So don't come tell me you use more skills then me when I use the exact same amount of skills as amy other person.

finally someone writed about buffing before fight

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You buff up and ambush/SA.

Doesn't matter anyway, the thread is about SA. It's a high dps spam skill, with major breach/ward that also stuns as well as buffs your' armour by 5.2k.

Now every other class has to slot a skill and keep it up for armour. Nb's just get it naturally.
Every other class has to spefically use a skill that causes major ward/breach if they even can. Dk's have to use breath or use ransack/la/bash and AC them to even do dmg. Nb's do more and naturally have this.

nah, Im playing nb nonstop since beta and now before fight(gang) I need to cast few buffs, thanks this I can deal max to 10k from surprise to unbuffed guy, withut buffs it be maybe max 8k hit. and idk do you heared about duels...but also with duels when is normal fight without hide/gang opener I also dont have to fast fights when im on full burst, with normal fights I also must keep an eye on few buffs, no only this "OP SA spam", double take, rally, relent focus, siphoning attacks, sometimes shadow to safe buff etc, with normal fight NB are same like other classes, also need good rotation and buffs to win fight

when you are ganged by nb with high burst....just look only for class name and skills (assasination, shadow) class for ganging lololol...and other thing, nb before gang uses all buffs to do the highest burst or to get better def (while when all buffs are still up) if gang be failed and defended :P

Jar_Ek · January 2016

Out of curiosity, how many SA can you fit in a single WB window? With AC. Because unless I am mistaken DK and Stam sorcs only have weapon skills for direct damage. So maybe it's not just SA vs Jabs but SA vs all weapon skills.

Edziu · January 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how many SA can you fit in a single WB window? With AC. Because unless I am mistaken DK and Stam sorcs only have weapon skills for direct damage. So maybe it's not just SA vs Jabs but SA vs all weapon skills.

I think here is just problem also with no class stamina skills for dk and sorc, im in for sorc and dk class stam skill, then will be less this broken form months wreck blows and more bursing stamina sorcs, dks, like now 90% dk are just with shields, give them good instant stamina dps skill, flame whip flame and more problem be solved, thanks this you can see other class skills also much spammable

Jar_Ek · January 2016

@Edziu Whilst I would love stam dks and sorcs to have a class attack for stam builds, the problem is bigger than just this. It is also that many generic weapon abilities are weaker than class ones - not just different... with a few notable exceptions. Zos need to ensure that all weapon skills are effective and hence the choices are hard. Atm for nb SA is a bit of a no brainer.

Edziu · January 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Edziu Whilst I would love stam dks and sorcs to have a class attack for stam builds, the problem is bigger than just this. It is also that many generic weapon abilities are weaker than class ones - not just different... with a few notable exceptions. Zos need to ensure that all weapon skills are effective and hence the choices are hard. Atm for nb SA is a bit of a no brainer.

maybe a bit, but I dont have any other skill with good dmg like on mag nb is also funnel health :P, i dont want use wreck blow, to much broken and thanks this its just 1 win-button like overload sorc in pve, I always also from start playing i thinking about dual skill, rapid strikes are to sick for me to use this, I dreaming (before nb has fixed, stam morphs etc) about 1 good skill in dual for instan cast, like flying blade but in normal melee distance 5 m, also in bow instant good skill, poison arrow without dot is nothing, snipe need to cast, magnum shot...better but on very short distance and thank oklny this knocbacks it also dealing not much damage

tplink3r1 · January 2016

MrGigglypants wrote: »

You're comparing an aoe cone with a single target spam lol not to mention jabs procs aedric passives that add 2k+ damage per proc.

jabs AOE damage is not even relevant.

Jar_Ek · January 2016

@Edziu I don't disagree, but my point is that NB are the only class with an option for a non generic weapon skill with all their issues (and Temp with jabs I guess). And all the generic weapon abilities are flawed in one way or another.

Septimus_Magna · January 2016

You need to be close with SA, thats why its so strong.
ZOS thinks you're always in a disadvantage when getting close to your target.

SA is probably the best single target stamina based dmg skill in the game but WB isnt far off either.

With 4.1k weapon dmg I can say SA can hit pretty hard in pvp, especially after opening with Ambush and Fear.

coolermh · January 2016

I got my overload dmg to read over 20k last night so I would say its not tooo overpowered

Edziu · January 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Edziu I don't disagree, but my point is that NB are the only class with an option for a non generic weapon skill with all their issues (and Temp with jabs I guess). And all the generic weapon abilities are flawed in one way or another.

yes, I also think SA is for me the best stamina skill, but its also thanks to good fixed and maked NB finally after start game, now we need only to wait with fix for templar, dk idk, I meeted few very good players on pvp end as I saw then dnt needed and fixes as so PRO players

and some stmaina skill to dps for sorc...only need wait again I think, like for nb we waitet maybe year since beta when he became finally very good balance for magica and stamina builds

whes as we see sorc is better more on magica only, dk on pvp on stamina, templart...ehh templar only for heals as I saw and dueling, talked to guys who playing templars

xXNesTXx · January 2016

LOL next time try to do the screenshots with similar gear and without using grim focus for manipulate the numbers hahahaha

Kaliki · January 2016

I don't think Surprise Attack by itself is OP.

It's the combination with superior regen and dmg passives, arguably the best aoe cc in game, major fracture, a working gap closer that grants empower, the ability to cloak half a dozen times even when going full stamina...

I'm not saying nerf NB. But Templars are weak in comparison.
My NB twink I barely know dominates more in pvp from day one than my 2 year old templar ever has.

Cathexis · January 2016

I

Alcast wrote: »

Same Gearsetup on Tempalr and NB

Surprise Attack Instant cast: Major Fracture, Major Resolve, Major Ward, Stuns+off balance out of stealth
Jabs 1,1s Channel: Major Savagery

Balanced?

@ZOS_RichLambert

Even more balanced?

kokoandshinb14a_ESO · January 2016

you know what really OP on the NB?

the use of concealed weapon or its other morph and being a vampire.

When you activate the vampire ultimate you now turn invis on both versions.

This allows you to cram as many invis buffed concealed/surprise atks you can in 6ish seconds while stunlocking you oppenents, and in the case of one of the skills-- guarantees a crit every hit.

Therium104 · January 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Same Gearsetup on Tempalr and NB

Surprise Attack Instant cast: Major Fracture, Major Resolve, Major Ward, Stuns+off balance out of stealth
Jabs 1,1s Channel: Major Savagery

Balanced?

@ZOS_RichLambert

NB are a joke and grossly overpowered. This is common knowledge and we are all just waiting for well deserved nerfs. Frankly, NB in its current OP state should not exist in any game. It is embarassing.

Edziu · January 2016

Therium104 wrote: »

NB are a joke and grossly overpowered. This is common knowledge and we are all just waiting for well deserved nerfs. Frankly, NB in its current OP state should not exist in any game. It is embarassing.

so gl in cyrodil with then bonus 100% of stamina NB spamming wreck blow with stacked weap dmg with 12k hit minimum lol + cc, you will be just 2 hitting in 2 seconds thanks nerf SA

leepalmer95 · January 2016

Edziu wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

NB are a joke and grossly overpowered. This is common knowledge and we are all just waiting for well deserved nerfs. Frankly, NB in its current OP state should not exist in any game. It is embarassing.

so gl in cyrodil with then bonus 100% of stamina NB spamming wreck blow with stacked weap dmg with 12k hit minimum lol + cc, you will be just 2 hitting in 2 seconds thanks nerf SA

Ill be 2 hit with SA either way.

They both need adjusting they do far too much utility and dmg for a single skill.

SA - High dmg, reduce armour, stun, proc's 5.2k armour buff. Instant can be weaved for stupid dmg.

WB - Very high dmg, despite it's cast time it hits pretty quickly, buggy cc, buggy range, empower? Basically if your hit with a wb you'll be hit by an empowered one before you can break free.

Sorc - frags, easily avoidable, does have a knockdown, can be reflected and dodged easily. Can be interupted, only useful when proc

Dk - Hmm, they look cool? Whip isn't in the same league. Stupidly low dmg.

Templar - Jabs/Sweeps, channel, will miss mjaority of hits, does less dmg then SA and takes twice as long to get off, the cc in it is actually a bad thing. Only stuns on the last hit which if you start getting jabbed you'll likely get the 3rd/4th jab to miss. Bugged to hell as well. Only skill that needs you to aim? Wb should make it so you have to aim like jabs instead of this auto buggy i'll hit you through dodge roll/ when i;m nearly behind you 15m away.

acw37162 · January 2016

The thing that strikes me about NB is the moves you are most likely to use give you everything you need , plus something.

Ambush grants empower
Lotus Fan grants a snare and a dot
Suprise attack grants major fracture and can stun
Concealed grants bonus speed in stealth
Dark Cloak purges status effects

Also one of the few classes that fan get 20 % weapon and 20% magic damage buff from a class skill both in the same skill and morph with a heal.

With very nice damage.

There seem to be very little trade offs when building a Nightblade to other classes, the skills you want give you everything you need plus some.

As far as balance I can't say, Templars as it was your example seem to have move farther away from their intended design where as NB seem to have had their core strengthened.

To your specific example, no their not balanced, SA is much better on its face. But if as you do you run a crit build jabs can easily crit on three of four hits and if burning light procs and crits then Jabs wins but that's a lots of ifs and maybes.

Also jabs is easier to sustain in long fights because it's a channel your 1.1 seconds into your next two second regen cycle.

But Templars also come out on the short end of sustain even with repentance, which only helps with trash pulls or add waves, any single target 1v1 or 1vX situation Templars come out on the short end of sustain also which is one of the reasons you use serpent and endurance on done of your build videos.

dday3six · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

...Aoe it only useful in pve, it's not that great in pvp...

What? My apologies I couldn't hear you over the sound of zergs spamming Steel Tornado, Impulse, Magicka Detentation, and Sap Essence. I think what you meant to say was 'AOE is not that great in duels'.

The AOE on jabs is not that great, read the discussion.

Also a zerg spamming anything will still kill you, just because bad players decide to spam 1 button doesn't make aoe that useful is actual pvp e.g. Not zerging or ganking, actually fighting someone who is aware your there.

I understand you want to think zerging and ganking aren't actually pvp, but until ZOS sets up smaller scale arenas they are in Cyrodiil.

revonine · January 2016

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

you know what really OP on the NB?

the use of concealed weapon or its other morph and being a vampire.

When you activate the vampire ultimate you now turn invis on both versions.

This allows you to cram as many invis buffed concealed/surprise atks you can in 6ish seconds while stunlocking you oppenents, and in the case of one of the skills-- guarantees a crit every hit.

Devouring Swarm does not turn you invisible, only Clouding Swarm.
I ran vamp with my magblade on and off (now currently off). You can get CC-ed in Clouding swarm and your still prone to AOE's. If I Soul Tether that combo is ruined, Fear also. Templar can throw a shard on themselves. Sorc can streak through. DK can talons and GTFO. It's great if you have a group to back you up and your zerg bombing with swarm + proxy + sap essence or if your Emperor but when it's countered it's countered hard.
If you don't see it coming though of course your gonna get wrecked. Same with any good combo.

Edziu · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ill be 2 hit with SA either way.

They both need adjusting they do far too much utility and dmg for a single skill.

SA - High dmg, reduce armour, stun, proc's 5.2k armour buff. Instant can be weaved for stupid dmg.

WB - Very high dmg, despite it's cast time it hits pretty quickly, buggy cc, buggy range, empower? Basically if your hit with a wb you'll be hit by an empowered one before you can break free.

Sorc - frags, easily avoidable, does have a knockdown, can be reflected and dodged easily. Can be interupted, only useful when proc

Dk - Hmm, they look cool? Whip isn't in the same league. Stupidly low dmg.

Templar - Jabs/Sweeps, channel, will miss mjaority of hits, does less dmg then SA and takes twice as long to get off, the cc in it is actually a bad thing. Only stuns on the last hit which if you start getting jabbed you'll likely get the 3rd/4th jab to miss. Bugged to hell as well. Only skill that needs you to aim? Wb should make it so you have to aim like jabs instead of this auto buggy i'll hit you through dodge roll/ when i;m nearly behind you 15m away.

hmm, so idk how much health you have...but SA have stun only from hide, from hide you can by stunned by any nb skill i think + from heavy weapon attacks also lol

I have dealing 6k to max 10k hits from SA to normal so good players, from WB I my hits are minimum for 10k + 2nd hit is always when you are still in air also when you fast do break free.....broken animation on wb, meh, before you fall on ground after/without break free you will get 2nd hit from WB what is in 75% deadly and can be 100% (+annyoing with this knockback) deadly for you if if dying after 2 SA

EDIT: ahh and i think 20% bonus dmg with empower hitting you harder than5k armor debuff if you are in light/medium armor and this empowet is applied on harder hit

Septimus_Magna · January 2016

coolermh wrote: »

I got my overload dmg to read over 20k last night so I would say its not tooo overpowered

20k Tooltip dmg?

With 4.4k spell dmg, 43k max magicka and 100 CP into Elemental Expert my Energy Overload tooltip is 'only' 17.6k.

Tankqull · January 2016

...

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

I don't think surprise attack is OP exactly, but the idea of ability is just dumb. A generic, "press 1 to kill" button that you're encouraged to use over and over is just poor design.

nerf nbs though

Buff temps and DKs instead.

Tell that to the BoL, WB, Jab, Overload spammers who press one button to win as well. I on the other hand have to go to stealth, position myself and then go in

Your seriously complaing about templars on a nb?

NO I'm just saying everyone is pressing one button to win. It's funny how you think I was complaining. One guy posted

A generic, "press 1 to kill" button that you're encouraged to use over and over is just poor design.

While practically all classes do it but he chooses to target one class.

My stam dk uses LA-Ransack-Bash with breath and keeps shuffle + rally + volcanic armour up? 1 button win.

My sorc uses curse/det/frag/execute/webs to kill people while keeping shields/surge up.

Nb's ambush + SA. = 3 hit kill.

My templar usually gets 1 attack off before he needs to heal vs a nb. Usually flare into jabs/ radiant/ shards, need to keep channel focus up with purifying ritual so i can actually heal, also toppling when it works it good burst dmg as i can only kill people with burst sadly.

Those people who press 1 button to win are just bad, people who use wb annoy me, stupid high dmg ability with broken cc, broken range and empower and they literally spam it, they don't even execute.

Nb's are a literally 1 button class though.

if you can kill someone with ambush +3 SA you can kill him with invade + 3heroic slashes/ransacks aswell, so what was your point?
when i´m playing my nb i´m using ambush, LA, flying daggers(for the snare with latencys as they are its necessery), SA, SH, and more buffs then i have to do with any other class i have (al 4 btw)

with S&b equiped SA does asmuch dmg as rensack/heroic slash, and i actually prefer HS when using s&B over SA as it provides a farbetter opponents dmg reduction than the measly 5k armor rating for 2sec SA provides in non heavy armor.

Cathexis · January 2016

Tankqull wrote: »

...

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Barlthump wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

I don't think surprise attack is OP exactly, but the idea of ability is just dumb. A generic, "press 1 to kill" button that you're encouraged to use over and over is just poor design.

nerf nbs though

Buff temps and DKs instead.

Tell that to the BoL, WB, Jab, Overload spammers who press one button to win as well. I on the other hand have to go to stealth, position myself and then go in

Your seriously complaing about templars on a nb?

NO I'm just saying everyone is pressing one button to win. It's funny how you think I was complaining. One guy posted

A generic, "press 1 to kill" button that you're encouraged to use over and over is just poor design.

While practically all classes do it but he chooses to target one class.

My stam dk uses LA-Ransack-Bash with breath and keeps shuffle + rally + volcanic armour up? 1 button win.

My sorc uses curse/det/frag/execute/webs to kill people while keeping shields/surge up.

Nb's ambush + SA. = 3 hit kill.

My templar usually gets 1 attack off before he needs to heal vs a nb. Usually flare into jabs/ radiant/ shards, need to keep channel focus up with purifying ritual so i can actually heal, also toppling when it works it good burst dmg as i can only kill people with burst sadly.

Those people who press 1 button to win are just bad, people who use wb annoy me, stupid high dmg ability with broken cc, broken range and empower and they literally spam it, they don't even execute.

Nb's are a literally 1 button class though.

if you can kill someone with ambush +3 SA you can kill him with invade + 3heroic slashes/ransacks aswell, so what was your point?
when i´m playing my nb i´m using ambush, LA, flying daggers(for the snare with latencys as they are its necessery), SA, SH, and more buffs then i have to do with any other class i have (al 4 btw)

with S&b equiped SA does asmuch dmg as rensack/heroic slash, and i actually prefer HS when using s&B over SA as it provides a farbetter opponents dmg reduction than the measly 5k armor rating for 2sec SA provides in non heavy armor.

Except heroic invade+heroic slash doesn't instantly teleport you on top of your opponent and mini unbreakable stun them every time you use them. Which is a significant difference.

bowmanz607 · January 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Same Gearsetup on Tempalr and NB

Surprise Attack Instant cast: Major Fracture, Major Resolve, Major Ward, Stuns+off balance out of stealth
Jabs 1,1s Channel: Major Savagery

Balanced?

@ZOS_RichLambert

Let's forget for a moment that jabs is aoe. We will look at jabs as a single target ability for a min. It does 140% more damage to nearest enemy. So in a single target scenario you apply that buff. So now each hit will be about 3.1k give or take. It hits what 4 times if i real correctly. That is 12,400 or so damage in 1.1 sec. So jabs does more.

Also, I am a little scepitical of your screen shots. Not saying it is not possible to reach those numbers or anything. But behind your SA pic the fighters guild skill line is in the background. I would think it would be the shadow line of the NB skills in the background. This goes for jabs which has alliance war in background.

Additiinally, because I am skeptical about everything, how are we suppose to know that all these stats are done in the same manner. For all we know you were fully buffed for the NB and not digged at all for the templar. What about races? Are they the same. I mean a red guard or imperial will hit harder with same gear setup as a bosmer for instance. What about your levels? Both v16? Drink or food? With both?

Barlthump · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Jabs doesn't work on shields either, and how many times are you realistically going to hit all 4 jabs on a half decent player?

Your lucky if you hit them 2/3 times at most. You actually have to aim jabs.

Jabs doesn't work on shields, but if were going to include passive, SA gives the user 5.2k armour on use as well.

Plus all nb's have high crit which high crit dmg. 50%+ is the min but usually i see people with 70% with 180%~ crit dmg.

Thats were SA suddenly starts doing stupid dmg.

Plus the first SA will be empowered usually. If ambushed in or the HA/SA from stealth weave will kill someone or take them to 25% hp.

Looks balanced to me.... <
( Sarcasm)

Check your passives again and you'll realize that Templars and NBs have the same buff to crit damage.

Exactly hence why i never mentioned it?

Point is SA does more dmg than a 1.1s channel.

A channel that won't hit all 4 of it's hits vs a good player.

That doesn't work on shields.

SA is instant, debuff's, stuns as well as gives 5.2k armour. Oh and as nb's are literally mean't for crit builds, nb's will crit most of the time were as pvp templars have quite a bit less crit. Also most templars are using serpant/atronach for regen while nb's can use shadow because they have an inherant 15% regen, sure templas have 10% but they have to waste a skill slot.

Anyway never mind all that SA/ Jabs simply because of the dmg/utility and fact it's instant and can be weaved quickly and more effectively.

Jabs is an aoe stam temp single target is meant to be wb

Wb is for scrubs.

Also people don't use Jabs for the 'Aoe' jabs/sweeps is a templars single target skill.

Aoe it only useful in pve, it's not that great in pvp, hitting another person for 1.2k tooltip dmg (600 dmg) per jab is not exactly what i'd call dmg.

Doesn't want to use wrecking blow, compares jabs to sa. You are a cancer to the eso. I can use rapid strikes and whine about wrecking blow as well. If you don't wanna use a proper single target skill, don't come and cry. It's as simple as that.

Barlthump · January 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how many SA can you fit in a single WB window? With AC. Because unless I am mistaken DK and Stam sorcs only have weapon skills for direct damage. So maybe it's not just SA vs Jabs but SA vs all weapon skills.

Use wrecking blow + leap = instakill win

bowmanz607 · January 2016

Barlthump wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how many SA can you fit in a single WB window? With AC. Because unless I am mistaken DK and Stam sorcs only have weapon skills for direct damage. So maybe it's not just SA vs Jabs but SA vs all weapon skills.

Use wrecking blow + leap = instakill win

I love when this combo is attempted on me. Unless I get caught off guard it is as simple as break free in air, hold block, dodge roll, rally and go hard during cc immunity, pop immovable pot for cc and stamina while you feast on their tears and finish them off. Between the cc immunity, high dps, and the pot giving back resources you really never have to let UK until they die. Of course that is not true in every circumstance, but works a lot.