Where Are We Headed?

Minno · January 2016

Ghostbane wrote: »

show previous quotes

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Scout Report?

Kill 20 __ players.

Teargrants · January 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ghostbane wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Scout Report?

Kill 20 __ players.

Nah, that's more of a group thing. My kill quest fills up just from being in range of group when they kill ppl.

Manoekin · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Scout Report?

Kill 20 __ players.

Nah, that's more of a group thing. My kill quest fills up just from being in range of group when they kill ppl.

Leech!

Minno · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

You're so dishonest with yourself.. name one Cyrodiil objective for soloer's.

Scout Report?

Kill 20 __ players.

Nah, that's more of a group thing. My kill quest fills up just from being in range of group when they kill ppl.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2016

[snip]

Moderator edit - image removed for violent and graphic content

Xsorus · January 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

Satiar · January 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

Rephrase: It's dumb PvP. Say what you will for dumb AOE meta but at least you're in the thick of things popping shields, ducking and dodging. If I don't need both hands to PvP wtf am I even doing?

_Chaos · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

If I don't need both hands to PvP wtf am I even doing?

I could tell you what I do, I don't think it's appropriate for the public forums though...

Satiar · January 2016

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Satiar wrote: »

If I don't need both hands to PvP wtf am I even doing?

I could tell you what I do, I don't think it's appropriate for the public forums though...

Ah, so that solved the "Why Xsorus loves siege" mystery.

Teargrants · January 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

Call it whatever you want, we aren't here to debate semantics, we're debating core game design and balance changes.

Minno · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

Call it whatever you want, we aren't here to debate semantics, we're debating core game design and balance changes.

Then it brings up the following:

- if players want organized pvp, wouldn't direct support for arenas make more sense? Trying to compete in open world pvp that requires seige at all seems extra work on the players part.

- is the seige change an intention or a reaction to the current gameplay? If reaction, should large scale pvp accept the developers might not want their gameplay? If intention, should pvp not adapt to the seige changes?

- its ludicrous to think a player that drops the right seige at the right time should be demoted on the pvp totem pole. This could be wheelers way of letting us know he has a system in place to handle pvp inflammation. Runing into choke points should be scary and create areas you shouldn't run your team into.

- additional objectives are still required for both small team and large team formats.

zyk · January 2016

Siege, when controlled by players, is still PVP. It's a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise. There is no one way the game or RVR "should" be. It's entirely subjective.

Poxheart · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

Call it whatever you want, we aren't here to debate semantics, we're debating core game design and balance changes.

But but but, that footage showed people playing the objectives "the way the game was meant to be played." How are people supposed to play the objectives of Cyrodiil without using siege??? You damn zerballers don't make any sense

Teargrants · January 2016

zyk wrote: »

Siege, when controlled by players, is still PVP. It's a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise. There is no one way the game or RVR "should" be. It's entirely subjective.

No one is saying siege isn't pvp, you too are just picking a meaningless argument based in semantics. What people are debating is the siege meta, something akin to the first couple weeks after 1.6 hit before siege buffs were fixed. It was a meta where keep pushes boiled down to who could put more fire trebs on a breach, where whole factions sat on sej bridge for hours and hours unable to set foot on the bridge without being wiped by siege, where open field fights turned into every pug setting siege so you had lines and lines of siege stretching from brk back to sej, where gank groups tried to gank ppl from horseback with siege.

The discussion people are trying to have is over the merits of this type of meta vs ability based combat. Why this distinction seems hard for some people to get, I swear I do not know.

FENGRUSH · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

Call it whatever you want, we aren't here to debate semantics, we're debating core game design and balance changes.

1v1?

FMonk · January 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

show previous quotes

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

As for siege changes... let's look at what actually happened the last time we buffed siege.

https://youtu.be/SsgXwB_tVBs?list=PLSKAxl0mulYqMNwPurTvSoIa4KdaeZG9r

Good times good times.

I'm confused...is this video suppose to show something bad?

I see lots of people dying in a choke point that's being bombarded by siege?

That's pretty much suppose to be what happens....Not them stack up and run through it like nothing is going on.

It's not PvP. Dat left click spec is great though.

Only it is PvP....

Unless the PvP no longer means Player Vs Player.

Poodle vs Poodle?

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

Call it whatever you want, we aren't here to debate semantics, we're debating core game design and balance changes.

1v1?

Reminds me of the time Crystallized set up a ground oil against me in a 1v1.

CN_Daniel · January 2016

- Campaigns need a lower population cap
- We need dynamic ult regen, for obvious reasons
- Group size needs to be reduced to 16 or 20
- Seige damage should be roughly doubled from now, but the other new ideas are ridiculous and poorly thoughtout
- Delete one inactive campaign to condense populations on PC
- Remove AOE caps totally
- Increase AP gains for solo/small teamers, to encourage more groups (A change I now support, after thoroughly thinking about it and assessing campaign health through a solo player's eyes)
- Finish IC, make it so you can capture districts
- Make the PvP quest hubs so you can capture them
- Lock any faction out of IC who does not own all of their home keeps and make all campaigns lockable
- Add a cool down for cloak, reflect & Breathe of Life JUST like you did for streak (balance, since you want to derp one classes 'special' ability, all classes should have theirs on a cost cool down too)
- Add an execute to impulse or remove the execute from nado
- Remove proxy all together

I think [snip]OP[/snip] is a jabroni, but I can't argue with his logic. Maybe the devs should listen JUST ONCE to the people who actually play the game, more than casually.

Moderator edit - post edited for trolling

PosternHouse · January 2016

Did you seriously just call the OP a "jabroni"? Send my regards to your brother-uncle and/or the driver of your short bus.

Fruitdog · January 2016

can you smell what the chuck is cooking?

zyk · January 2016

Teargrants wrote: »

The discussion people are trying to have is over the merits of this type of meta vs ability based combat. Why this distinction seems hard for some people to get, I swear I do not know.

Probably because people write things such as:

Teargrants wrote: »

It's not PvP in the sense of fighting players using abilities which themselves are dependent on the skill lvl of the player.

What it becomes is Siege v Siege where the only 'skill' is pressing left click fast when the siege reloads.

"now that I've made my semantic statement, everyone stop arguing semantics."

Like any function in the game, siege can be used thoughtlessly or thoughtfully -- just like builds and abilities.

The video posted is not really relevant either. That was immediately after the change before players adapted to the increased damage of siege.

Personally, I quite enjoyed the buffed siege. Not because I directly benefited from it, but because I felt it improved gameplay. It is much more stale without it.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2016

The siege changes are necessary just to make them viable...right now Purge and heals render them useless...i don't think thats good for the game. Siege has so many draw backs:

1. Sitting duck while using it
2. very slow load and reload times
3. can't use your skills while using the siege must get off it first
4. takes up an inventory slot
5. degrades and breaks
6. must pack and unpack it
7. Costs AP or Gold to buy

For all those disadvantages, the advantages of using it right now is just meh...

As for everything else, until they fix that lag, it probably won't matter much.

Minno · January 2016

CN_Daniel wrote: »

- Campaigns need a lower population cap
- We need dynamic ult regen, for obvious reasons
- Group size needs to be reduced to 16 or 20
- Seige damage should be roughly doubled from now, but the other new ideas are ridiculous and poorly thoughtout
- Delete one inactive campaign to condense populations on PC
- Remove AOE caps totally
- Increase AP gains for solo/small teamers, to encourage more groups (A change I now support, after thoroughly thinking about it and assessing campaign health through a solo player's eyes)
- Finish IC, make it so you can capture districts
- Make the PvP quest hubs so you can capture them
- Lock any faction out of IC who does not own all of their home keeps and make all campaigns lockable
- Add a cool down for cloak, reflect & Breathe of Life JUST like you did for streak (balance, since you want to derp one classes 'special' ability, all classes should have theirs on a cost cool down too)
- Add an execute to impulse or remove the execute from nado
- Remove proxy all together

I think [snip]OP[/snip] is a jabroni, but I can't argue with his logic. Maybe the devs should listen JUST ONCE to the people who actually play the game, more than casually.

I can get behind these ideas.

Moderator edit - post edited to match edited referenced edited material

booksmcread · January 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

booksmcread wrote: »

CITADALO wrote: »

x99Needles wrote: »

I am going to disclaim now; this is going to be quite a long post. I do not come to the forums often for various reasons. Exceptions being when I have something to say or in response to someone. Everyone has their two cents about what’s going on with this game, these are mine.

It is no secret that Cyrodiil is in a poor state. Between the constant lag issues, the stale “how many can I stack and who’s got barrier” Meta, and the discouraged or tired out leaving Cyrodiil at a frightening rate leaves Cyrodiil feeling just a little emptier than it was before. I can agree as I think most all of us can that something needs to change. I mean we all wish the lag would be “fixed” or just go away but the reality of the situation is that the game cannot currently operate as was intended. Say what you will about how it “should” work or how the game has been out for two years why can’t they get it together already. Things are not as simple as “fix” or “make it work”, they take time and I hope to god they do figure something out because the number one reason people stop playing is because they literally can’t play.

What I am more concerned about further each day I watch this game is where we are currently headed. The upcoming changes to Alliance War Skills and Siege Weapons inside Cyrodiil are excellent examples. We are reducing the effectiveness of skills meant to be used inside the alliance war and increasing the effectiveness of siege damage. Why? What’s the problem?

The problem is evident and easily explained with the such a simple word that is has become casually interpreted as the root of all of the game’s problems. Zerg.

“If people wouldn’t zerg.” “Zergs are the only reason it lags.” “Zergs ruin this game.”

Maybe so. It cannot be denied, when you stack even just 48 people in one Keep or Outpost, the ping skyrockets in search of the next galaxy over. Skills become things that just look pretty on your bar, movement looks like a poorly edited Claymation, and you sit back at your computer letting out a heavy sigh because that’s just about the extent of what you can do. And because of this, the forums, and zone, the community in general gets flooded with “anti-zerg” mentality and advocating warriors. I hate stacking, I hate fighting zergs, I hate when the game isn’t playable. Just like all of you.

But we’ve come to the point when a zerg is simply whenever you lose outnumbered, whether it be by a few or a dozen players. Quick, point and shout zerg! This mentality that has built up, and been encouraged by several players who have done nothing inside Cyrodiil but complain and keep to their corners of the map. It is plain toxic and not informative either. Zerg shaming has become a downright display of ignorance, no longer equitable.

I understand just as well as any of us, zergs are a problem. What I do not understand is reducing this games play to point and click on a siege weapon and removing the skills that allowed us to counter that. For those of you who do not know who I am, I am the GM of Vehemence (VE). I run 24 man raids every night.
The allotted group size in Cyrodiil, and yet I am constantly alongside my players accused of mindless zerging. Yet, every night the number of fights we do, the sheer numbers we face. I am outnumbered 8 out of ten times in any given situation in Cyrodiil. This is the fact of the game. Sometimes it works okay, sometimes it really sucks. It is not our fault, nor the players we are going up against that the game’s performance is poor.

Despite contending odds, we still manage to take objectives, defend objectives, sometimes with help sometimes alone. This is capable because of our teamwork and the skills available to us. I agreed that the “how many can I stack and who’s got a barrier” Meta is boring and needs a change. However, making the skill almost completely useless in raid play alongside nerfs to purge, is not the solution in my opinion. “The zerg is the problem so we’ll just make it so you can easily kill anything with siege and they won’t be able to defend themselves adequately.”

The game is slowly ever crawling to favoring the solo or smaller groups inside Cyrodiil. We are blaming the larger groups inside Cyrodiil for lagging the server and being “what’s wrong with the game.” Who do you think responds to the hordes of the opposing factions when it’s called out in zone? Who pushes back the faction that is on your front door? Who went out of their way to save that scroll? The guilds and groups inside Cyrodiil that run “larger” numbers when they are simply filling the group size inside Cyrodiil. And it cannot be argued that the larger groups are more successful than the smaller ones. Zergs aside, take 4 against 10, unless you’re dealing with a severe gap in skill the 10 are going to win and that’s how it should be. War is not a game of morale victories.

The mentality that has evolved inside this game is almost unbelievable. You are playing an RvR Game. We are all playing a game designed around taking objectives inside Cyrodiil that revolve around at the very least 18 man groups. This game does not support dueling or arenas (yet as they say.) And here we are shaming players and groups for playing the way it was intended…

Has anyone thought what Cyrodiil would like without all the large groups? Perfect right? You could all go do your solo and small man things to your hearts content inside an open world RvR realm where the Keeps simply become decorations on the map. A ghost town for your needs and desires. But we like playing this game too. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to play small. Nothing at all. You aren’t shamed or attacked for it. You aren’t blamed for things that are clearly out of your hands. And you also do nothing for your faction. You don’t take keeps. You don’t fight back. You don’t contribute to the score. You play alongside your faction's zergs and scold or you keep to your corners fighting duels while the map conflicts.

Where are we headed like this? Are we going to continue experiencing game changes that favor simplified play and how much siege you can set down? As a community there are no other options we can come to? No other solutions besides complaining and shaming and name-calling? This is what this game is becoming?

Do you think we enjoy the lag as well? Do you think I get into cyrodiil and immediately ask, “who can I stack with?!” I spend half my night making calls to avoid colliding with friendly guilds and I still end up surrounded by DC at times. You think I run 24 members so I can chase down 3 or 4 people in a field and exclaim, “Get rekt! We are so good!” That's it, I've been compiling footage for my Xv1 video for the past year and a half guys. No. We don’t play for that. It’s not fun to play in lag, but the next time you’re fighting “a zerg” take off your own zerg goggles and take a quick look around you. Chances are, you are surrounded by your own faction. Just because you aren’t grouped doesn’t mean you aren’t a large force. Taking objectives and defending in Cyrodiil against the masses would not be possible without large groups. You are inside an RvR game. There are going to be large groups, and it’s not our fault. We aren’t what’s wrong with this game. The mentality and hate inside the community is what’s wrong. If you didn’t have large groups in Cyrodiil what a sad place it would be. But we keep pushing for groups to get dissolved.

Food for thought:

Stacking is a problem right now because the game can’t handle it. If we can’t fix the lag right now, why not institute more objectives inside Cyrodiil required for scoring? Force factions to spread for teamwork. You’re always going to have that jerk who stacks a raid or two because L2P but are there no ways for us to create or force factions to spread? If all we have left to defend is Aleswell and EP is pushing from Bleakers. Where do you think these two factions will collide? And quite literally the factions will collide. Because there is no other objective to push now. The next course of action has already been decided. The game was designed with natural choke points in Cyrodiil without the actual ability to handle the confrontations. It’s not EP nor DCs fault for going towards the objective when there’s no other option provided. They are playing as intended.

The removal of Prox Det as a skill entirely. No matter how you look at this skill or how many times you want to change it, it favors the group. It will never favor the smaller force enough to justify it. This is by far the best group AoE ever given to group players.

The adjustment of Barrier and Purge to only effect group members with the possibility of a slight number reduction. Not a drastic drop to where it’s not even worth mentioning as an Alliance War Skill.

The abolition of AoE caps and return of dynamic ultimate. Without AoE cap reduction and dynamic ultimate regen returned to players, you would be able to fight larger forces more easily as your ultimate would generate faster and your damage would not be mitigated because they stacked raids.

Strengthen AoE damage across the board for all class based skills. Pull players away from the stale "impulse and steel tornado only please". Nerf steel tornado’s range and remove the execution proc completely.

Institution of completely group based effects. This would include heals, set bonus buffs(as they already implemented), and all Alliance War Skills and any skills that effect nearby allies. Encourage players to group, stop discouraging and shaming it. This game was made to play with a group, stop arguing it.

Do not adjust siege damage against the player further, revoke the idea that siege should drain resources as well. If this becomes nothing but a siege vs siege game, it will be the most boring pvp experience on the market right now. All siege effects should be purgable as an alliance war skill inside alliance war siege damage.

Adjustment of the mentality that groups are what’s wrong with this game. Remember you are playing an RvR game. This PvP is undeniably group based. It is not the group’s fault that the lag is present. That is a strictly development issue. And I’m not saying scream at ZOS either. Exercise some patience and grace. We are all playing this game, just because someone plays a way you don’t doesn’t even come close to making them wrong.

I love this game; I seriously have never had so much fun playing a game. During the frustrations, the lag, the disappointment, we are all still playing for some reason. We love this game. I don’t want to watch this game drift into a brain dead hate fest dumbing down the game every patch. If you ask a majority of players they will tell you something similar to, “just here waiting for the next game to come out.” Hearing that phrase always saddens me, I love playing this game, but what’s the point if no one wants to and the people who still will are going to constantly harass the way you play? I am starting to count myself among those waiting for something else, because I’m not quite sure where TESO is headed like this.
-Like a Bulbasir/Permarekt

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

In Cyrodil there is no GvG mechanic like other mmo, maybe you should ask ZOS to implement that .This game don't support big group playstyle.

Cyrodiil is designed to be Group v Group. The fact that people can 1vX or duel or other activities despite it being outside of the core design of PvP in this game is great. But the core mechanics of the game are Group v Group.

This is incorrect; cyrodiil is designed to be AvAvA and this is how DAOC was designed as well the game this one is directly trying to copy. AvA or RvR if you prefer encompasses all levels of pvp from 1v1 to ZergvsZerg.. That's what separates it from arena or battleground based pvp. Saying cyrodiil is just designed around group vs group is willfully misinformed about where this system of pvp came from and its intent.

This is not DAOC, it is ESO.

At the core of this game's design is the campaign. The campaign is designed around pushing objectives. Groups push larger objectives. People (often in groups) come to defend objectives. This creates a flashpoint. Flashpoints create action for other players: small groups, gankers, soloers, casuals, etc. It's like its own little ecology. But at the core of this design is the group pushing large objectives.

I didn't say 1v1 couldn't exist, I was speaking about the core of the current game design and mechanics.

God_flakes · January 2016

I was unsure what to make for dinner tonight but then came here and was reminded how delicious Bulb's salty tears are.

When DC was complaining about alllllll this a year ago we were told to suck it up. By people like Bulb. So my sympathy meter is at an all time low. Peace.

Satiar · January 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

I was unsure what to make for dinner tonight but then came here and was reminded how delicious Bulb's salty tears are.

When DC was complaining about alllllll this a year ago we were told to suck it up. By people like Bulb. So my sympathy meter is at an all time low. Peace.

And than our entire guild rerolled to help out. lol

PosternHouse · January 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

I was unsure what to make for dinner tonight but then came here and was reminded how delicious Bulb's salty tears are.

When DC was complaining about alllllll this a year ago we were told to suck it up. By people like Bulb. So my sympathy meter is at an all time low. Peace.

So you're upset about people who told you to suck it up who were like OP but who weren't actually the same person as OP. Yeah, sounds totally reasonable. Your NaCl consumption is approaching dangerous quantities.

KenaPKK · January 2016

Well this thread is degrading rapidly.. Hmm..

PainfulFAFA · January 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

CN_Daniel wrote: »

- Campaigns need a lower population cap
- We need dynamic ult regen, for obvious reasons
- Group size needs to be reduced to 16 or 20
- Seige damage should be roughly doubled from now, but the other new ideas are ridiculous and poorly thoughtout
- Delete one inactive campaign to condense populations on PC
- Remove AOE caps totally
- Increase AP gains for solo/small teamers, to encourage more groups (A change I now support, after thoroughly thinking about it and assessing campaign health through a solo player's eyes)
- Finish IC, make it so you can capture districts
- Make the PvP quest hubs so you can capture them
- Lock any faction out of IC who does not own all of their home keeps and make all campaigns lockable
- Add a cool down for cloak, reflect & Breathe of Life JUST like you did for streak (balance, since you want to derp one classes 'special' ability, all classes should have theirs on a cost cool down too)
- Add an execute to impulse or remove the execute from nado
- Remove proxy all together

I think Vulvasair is a jabroni, but I can't argue with his logic. Maybe the devs should listen JUST ONCE to the people who actually play the game, more than casually.

I can get behind these ideas.

Almost all of those ideas have been called out MONTHS ago and there not a single one that I disagree with.

Until then, Cyrodiil will continue to be a mess and large guilds will continue to have their raid nights despite knowing that any of their encounter there will be lag. What do these large groups expect when defenders see a full organized group rampaging around their keep? Then they justify it by saying that they're going to be fighting outnumbered...because logic GG.
Weekends will continue to be the laggiest and theres nothing anybody will do about it except make more threads like this where we discuss, vent, and ultimately end up back in the game filling up 24, running purge, steelnado, barriers. stacking, etc.
Such is the circle of life in cyrodiil.

30 more days of this. I doubt some incremental patch between then and now will be dedicated to Cyrodiil lag because of other broken abilities/mechanics that they need to sort out first. Then we'll see where the game is heading for the next 4-5 months. But i doubt Thieves update will be the magic touch. Theres only so much devs can do to abilities to reduce the lag, until they accept that things like AoE caps adds more to server stress.

Minno · January 2016

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

CN_Daniel wrote: »

- Campaigns need a lower population cap
- We need dynamic ult regen, for obvious reasons
- Group size needs to be reduced to 16 or 20
- Seige damage should be roughly doubled from now, but the other new ideas are ridiculous and poorly thoughtout
- Delete one inactive campaign to condense populations on PC
- Remove AOE caps totally
- Increase AP gains for solo/small teamers, to encourage more groups (A change I now support, after thoroughly thinking about it and assessing campaign health through a solo player's eyes)
- Finish IC, make it so you can capture districts
- Make the PvP quest hubs so you can capture them
- Lock any faction out of IC who does not own all of their home keeps and make all campaigns lockable
- Add a cool down for cloak, reflect & Breathe of Life JUST like you did for streak (balance, since you want to derp one classes 'special' ability, all classes should have theirs on a cost cool down too)
- Add an execute to impulse or remove the execute from nado
- Remove proxy all together

I think Vulvasair is a jabroni, but I can't argue with his logic. Maybe the devs should listen JUST ONCE to the people who actually play the game, more than casually.

I can get behind these ideas.

Almost all of those ideas have been called out MONTHS ago and there not a single one that I disagree with.

Until then, Cyrodiil will continue to be a mess and large guilds will continue to have their raid nights despite knowing that any of their encounter there will be lag. What do these large groups expect when defenders see a full organized group rampaging around their keep? Then they justify it by saying that they're going to be fighting outnumbered...because logic GG.
Weekends will continue to be the laggiest and theres nothing anybody will do about it except make more threads like this where we discuss, vent, and ultimately end up back in the game filling up 24, running purge, steelnado, barriers. stacking, etc.
Such is the circle of life in cyrodiil.

30 more days of this. I doubt some incremental patch between then and now will be dedicated to Cyrodiil lag because of other broken abilities/mechanics that they need to sort out first. Then we'll see where the game is heading for the next 4-5 months. But i doubt Thieves update will be the magic touch. Theres only so much devs can do to abilities to reduce the lag, until they accept that things like AoE caps adds more to server stress.

Just giving credit to the post. It's not a bad sounding list from a consistency standpoint.

If it was mentioned months ago, and its mentioned now, I don't mind reiterating it in other threads. We should all do the same.

If everyone else agrees, lets try to push it forward.

As for going back to the same gameplay: we do have a chance to make it a fun game or at least bearable till the fixes drop.

God_flakes · January 2016

Satiar wrote: »

show previous quotes

God_flakes wrote: »

I was unsure what to make for dinner tonight but then came here and was reminded how delicious Bulb's salty tears are.

When DC was complaining about alllllll this a year ago we were told to suck it up. By people like Bulb. So my sympathy meter is at an all time low. Peace.

And than our entire guild rerolled to help out. lol

Irrelevant. Appreciated but irrelevant. Ya'll enjoyed over pop status for a looooooong time and got yo killz on for a looooooooong time before deciding to try to balance the scales. Let DC have their moment in the sun. I like that so much I'm gonna make it my signature.