ESO LIVE Economy Discussion

J2JMC · January 2016

While my comprehension of the English language is not the greatest, I always felt it was good enough to understand the discussions that occurred on ESO LIVE. Yet, despite being a native English speaker, I had a really difficult time understanding @ZOS_MattFiror when he received a question about the state of the economy. Going to go through my thought process while watching ESO LIVE in hopes that anyone reading this can help clear up my confusion.

Conversation:
"Um, we've seen some people thinking that the in-game economy is suffering a bit since so many of the items are BOP um and just wondering if we're doing anything to sort of breath some new life into the in-game economy?"-@ZOS_GinaBruno

(little intermission of tech problems and doing clickers)

"Yeah uh, but answer to that question, sorry about that guys, we really want to um uh we want to update things so that um crafters and everything can actually do content along with the other people keep it up to date um we dont want to get in a situation where players can outlevel things or we change a system and then suddenly you can't do things that used to do so we will definitely keep that in mind."-@ZOS_MattFiror

twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/35627537?t=13m0s

From my perspective, he did not answer the question at all. He just talked about crafters being able to do content. Considering some of the best all-purpose gear in the game is crafted(e.g hundings, julianos, morkuldin, twice-born), I say he has nothing to worry about on that front. That being said, his response has nothing to do with us not being able to sell the PVE sets that drop in your dlc's.

I get it, you guys probably think that if people can just buy the stuff they won't buy the dlc and you need them racks. Alternatively, the ones who do will just sub for a month, get the gear and not sub until the next dlc. However, I REALLY think you're downplaying a few factors that would have people buy the DLC regardless of a few sets being BoE AND extend the life of your content.

1. Molag Kena and Maelstrom Weapons- There is already precedent for items like these to be BoP. These alone would justify people buying the dlc as both the weapons and the 2 pc molag kena can offer significant boosts to character power.

2.Difficulty of the content-Not everyone can complete the content. Not everyone wants to complete the content. Therefore, not everyone can get the basic sets. People who can complete the content have no reason to run it once they have their gear. However, if there is a market for the drops inside the dlc, they'll continue to run the content(keep up their subs) to make money.

3.No need to decrease the RNG-Everybody hates RNG. It's annoying enough on special weapons and monster helms. Having it be so crappy on regular sets is just wrong. However, the current RNG is perfect if BOE were allowed. The trait/set combo drops are rare enough where the market wouldn't be overly saturated but, people could still settle for a less than perfect piece. Honestly, this would probably allow you to increase the RNG by making the enchants on the gear random as well without catching any flack. Again, this encourages players to continue running the content to trade for pieces they want or more gold.

So, considering the above, and other points I'm sure I missed, please make 5 set piece drops BoE so I can make money. At the very least ,give a better answer than "We gotta make sure crafters can complete content".

TL;DR: This was how I reacted to Matt Firor's response on the economy https://youtube.com/watch?v=m-267UjyVmM

Ra'Shtar · January 2016

I too was a confused by the answer, there are so many good sets but the RNG is the biggest of issues so many crappy traits on top of the low chance of getting the item. Making this things BoE will just be a patch on the issue.

Aimora · January 2016

Totally agree - I understand their motivation for making things BoP, (people won't buy the DLC!) But I think this is flawed and it shouldn't be the only reason for buying, Wrothgar had it's own merits and didn't need BoP to sell it! Also I think the shoulders from undaunted should also be BoE (not the helms) so that people who love doing the dungeons have a way of making cash on the items they don't require - it's tragic to decon a Kena shoulders when you know a good friend needs it and you have got one on your 4 alts. This is especially the case when they bring out the vendors in PvP.

Refuse2GrowUp · January 2016

The game mgmt team does not have enough faith in their own product to believe people will simply buy it because they like the product. Therefore, they change everything to BoP, decrease RNG drop rates for gear and crafting mats to abysmal rates, and ultimately frustrate you to the point you get fed up with the game and decrease your play time or walk away, all in an attempt to force you to buy the DLC and play more. Gotta love the ironies in life.

Edit: And yes, I didn't watch the live broadcast, but if your recap is accurate, I would agree he completely failed to answer the question. Which leaves me to wonder, did he stumble on his words and misspeak (happens to us all sometimes, especially during public speaking), did he simply not understand the question, or is he simply completely clueless as to the issue and therefore couldn't accurately respond??

Dexter411 · January 2016

No ETA

Jura23 · January 2016

I don't understand what he said either. Maybe he misunderstood the question?

Iyas · January 2016

Bop setup is such an old mechanic. I hate it so much. I dont get my motivation to play the same content due bop and bad rng. Ill simply stop playing

The economy is more or less dead. No goldmats anymore with nerfed hirelings and no one doing the writs anymore. There is no way to make money with AP or high end pve.

DRXHarbinger · January 2016

Gold mats are so easy to get, 1hr in Craglorn will net you a mixture of 10+ plus Nirns.
Buying the odd glass fragment that comes up for 1k can end up netting you chests, legs, swords and the other good ones for 20k to then sell on for 50k plus, crafting Nirnhoned items and weapons will land you like 15k for armor and 25k for weapons, even just buying the nirns will land you a profit.

Craft some of the better sets and stick them in a guild store for 999,999 and people will message you asking for you to craft them and charge 5k an item piece for it.

Do the enchanting writs, i'm getting a Kuta roughly 1 in 3 and they go for 17k plus, again craft gold glyphs, atm Wp damage and SP damage or any others at the moment are going for 25k plus.

just hoping to grind and pick stuff up isn't the way to go, granted it's not as easy but it's still easy to make tons of lovely gold, also do PVP for a few hours a month, get in band 3 for a reward and done.

Faulgor · January 2016

Yeah. Was so happy to see that issue brought up, and then ... virtually no response at all.

It is still my opinion that RNG + no BoP is the best system for an MMO economy, so I agree with the OP.

SorataArisugawa · January 2016

Iyas wrote: »

Bop setup is such an old mechanic. I hate it so much. I dont get my motivation to play the same content due bop and bad rng. Ill simply stop playing

The economy is more or less dead. No goldmats anymore with nerfed hirelings and no one doing the writs anymore. There is no way to make money with AP or high end pve.

^This

It is so sad. It don't have to be everything BoE, but with Maltrom now it is so insane random. I didn't believe, that it will make such a difference, but the current system is extrem annoying... I can't get a second ring for my winterborn set. I farm it nearly every day. Somedays even several times. But no luck.

I understand, that the Weapons are BoP, but all setpieces? insane...

Anhedonie · January 2016

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Current RNG is the worst and it wouldn't be fine even if sets were boe. They need to get rid from layers of rng.

Iyas · January 2016

Anhedonie wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Current RNG is the worst and it wouldn't be fine even if sets were boe. They need to get rid from layers of rng.

Tell me about the rng.
From 9 weekly rewards i got 8 defending wpns and 1 sharpened sword ... I dont have any wpn i want :'(

code65536 · January 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

I don't understand what he said either. Maybe he misunderstood the question?

Or maybe he did what politicians often do: change the subject to avoid answering the question when he knows that the answer would not be popular.

themdogesbite · January 2016

The only good things all those bots we had running arround way back brought us was that everything on the market got dirt cheap.. i want 8k for a stack of tri-stat pots to come back..

BlackEar · January 2016

You either;

a) have BoE sets with the current version of RNG traits.

b) have BoP sets based on a token system.

c) have BoP sets with fixed traits.

This combination of RNG and BoP is hurting. It does not do anything to contribute to the economy and it is detrimental to the experience of running dungeons.

Then of course there is the scaling problem, which will hopefully be addressed in the future.

Messy1 · January 2016

It does seem like he dodged the question.

Bunneh · January 2016

How about making it so you can't wear a piece (the first time or subsequently) that comes with a DLC unless you are currently premium or you have bought the DLC.

Programmatically its pretty simple, and whilst it will generate a few checks its not like people change their armour every second or so.

Do keep up, Zenibotch

xellink · January 2016

J2JMC wrote: »

That being said, his response has nothing to do with us not being able to sell the PVE sets that drop in your dlc's.

However, I REALLY think you're downplaying a few factors that would have people buy the DLC regardless of a few sets being BoE AND extend the life of your content.

1. Molag Kena and Maelstrom Weapons- There is already precedent for items like these to be BoP. These alone would justify people buying the dlc as both the weapons and the 2 pc molag kena can offer significant boosts to character power.

2.Difficulty of the content-Not everyone can complete the content. Not everyone wants to complete the content. Therefore, not everyone can get the basic sets. People who can complete the content have no reason to run it once they have their gear. However, if there is a market for the drops inside the dlc, they'll continue to run the content(keep up their subs) to make money.

IMO a BOP system should be implemented first then converted into a BOE later on when the next expansion comes out. There are many many advantages for this

1) botting - zos can now prevent botting with skeleton manpower, most botting companies (i come from asia i know) will target expansions when they first come out. BOP is an excellent self-dense mechanism. When the system switches to BOE, these companies won't actually do the research.
2) exclusivity - zos needs to do more to reward people who subscribe. a short period of exclusivity would be good, especially for casuals who want to buy/subscribe to the expansions. Casuals (majority of players) don't farm gear sets to sell, bots and hardcore players do. When the market stabilises, subscribers can then start to profit once the system switches to BOE. I'm pretty sure there are numbers to follow before zos changes it to BOE, but i'm not an expert in marketing.

That said, i agree that not everyone can complete the content or want to complete the content, perhaps ZOS could produce an equally powered but less cosmetic version for those who are unable to complete the content. This move is a step to support PVP players as well. The rage will only get worse once organised PVP like arenas come into play, then we'll see more BOE/pvp-only items to turn the game into a sport. Most people don't want PVP to be a sport (yet). Most people are still grinding through content.

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Making this things BoE will just be a patch on the issue.

Agreed, BOE is just a nifty switch. Therefore I suspect Zos has other intention.

Preyfar · January 2016

Once upon a time, you could go to guild traders and see a large variety of weapons, armor and jewelry available for sale. Most of that has dried up and become obsolete since little to nothing is readily available for sale at VR15/16. The only thing I seem to be able to sell anymore are items like Tempers, Glyphs or the occasional drop I get from IC vaults. Almost everything else dried up across the board. Or I could just grind non-stop for trophy items to sell.

I used to do 400-500K sales a month at guild traders... and now I'm down to about 40-50K on average. If that.

BoP has really harmed a lot of the in game economy. Trade guild still do okay, but the variety of items sold has dwindled quite a bit.

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

They don't know how to design an MMO around end game gear or end game skills.

They have so many good examples out there but its like they would rather ignore those exist.

Having gear that makes absolutely no sense drop is so discouraging, they must not really want us to play.

Elsonso · January 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

I don't understand what he said either. Maybe he misunderstood the question?

I am certain that Matt knew what the questions were in advance. You do not simply ask the boss and head of a corporate division to answer questions cold when you know what they are in advance.

"Yeah uh, but answer to that question, sorry about that guys, we really want to um uh we want to update things so that um crafters and everything can actually do content along with the other people keep it up to date um we dont want to get in a situation where players can outlevel things or we change a system and then suddenly you can't do things that used to do so we will definitely keep that in mind."-@ZOS_MattFiror

It is possible that the distraction caused Firor to skip to a comment related to a different question. There was another bound item related question that was asked on ESO Live and this answer does seem to fit with that one.

Still, set BoP is related to crafting and the economy in the bigger picture, so there is a crafting component in the answer to the question that was asked.

Iyas wrote: »

The economy is more or less dead. No goldmats anymore with nerfed hirelings and no one doing the writs anymore.

I would have to disagree with that, at least on the North American PC/Mac megaserver. The top selling guild store items are dreugh wax, voidstone, dwarven oil, and tempering alloy according to my research. I am pretty sure at least one of them is a gold mat and it is pretty clear that crafting is driving the economy. It is hard to do 50 million gold sales at guild kiosks in a dead economy, but that is what I see in MM for last week.

I still think the key to the economy on the consoles is better Guild Store tools built into the game. The current tools are unwieldy and are well behind what is available on PC/Mac through addons. Anything ZOS can do to improve the guild trader interface will help.

Hope499 · January 2016

Yeah, he avoided that question 100% i noticed.

If i didnt have millions already, I would be worried.

Khaos_Bane · January 2016

Yes, it was very frustrating to hear a non answer on the economy. It was a topic I was VERY excited to hear about. I love games with a very active and healthy economy.

ESO used to be kind of a pain in the arse with the guild trader system but at least the economy was healthy.

Khaos_Bane · January 2016

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

They don't know how to design an MMO around end game gear or end game skills.

They have so many good examples out there but its like they would rather ignore those exist.

This.

Tandor · January 2016

I'm not sure how you can discuss a game's economy without mentioning the trading system. That is the heart of any game economy.

Khaos_Bane · January 2016

Preyfar wrote: »

Once upon a time, you could go to guild traders and see a large variety of weapons, armor and jewelry available for sale. Most of that has dried up and become obsolete since little to nothing is readily available for sale at VR15/16. The only thing I seem to be able to sell anymore are items like Tempers, Glyphs or the occasional drop I get from IC vaults. Almost everything else dried up across the board. Or I could just grind non-stop for trophy items to sell.

I used to do 400-500K sales a month at guild traders... and now I'm down to about 40-50K on average. If that.

BoP has really harmed a lot of the in game economy. Trade guild still do okay, but the variety of items sold has dwindled quite a bit.

The crafting sets are better than a lot of the in-game dropped sets, which I am OK with. I do make money selling mats.

Sausage · January 2016

Zen did the right thing, all excessive Gold is gonna go to Monster Set vendors now, if Gold goes from player to another player, it just creates more problems, for example, some are filthy rich and some are extremely poor, forum battles are guaranteed. This way they can control the economy much better, and its alot easier for devs and better for us players.