Dark Cloak Suggestions

stealthyevil · January 2016

So, I've listened to a majority of people calling for a nerf to Dark Cloak. The argument is that the escape is too easily spammable, especially on a magicka build. As a nightblade myself, I very much agree. Here are some changes that I think might be useful, ones that won't kill the class, but still make them very unique and an interesting playstyle.

The fact that a nightblade can easily turn TOTALLY invisible at the touch of a button and stay there if they so choose is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. I agree it is what sets apart the nightblade from other classes but the skill is called "Shadowy Guise" not "Totally Invisible Guise". How about changing the invisibility during cloak to something similar to the Kollopi Essence disguise. If you are unfamiliar with this, it is a disguise that renders your character as almost invisible, with just vague outlines. Now, that disguise isn't allowed in Cyrodil for obvious reasons, what if Dark Cloak were tweaked to be displayed similar to that. It wouldn't render your character totally invisible, however the enemy would still need to have half a brain to notice that you are right there amongst them. That would take more skill on both parties, you will have to be paying attention to your surroundings, however, if you are the one cloaking you need to be aware of what is around you so you don't get spotted.

The issue with the skill being spammable I think can be rectified by taking away Magicka regen for the entire duration of the cloak. Without this regen available, it would be harder to continously cloak from Black Boot to glorious Dragonclaw. This would still leave the scouting capabilities and movement bonuses open for the class, however reduce the time which you are able to do those things requiring a bit more resource management. A scout nightblade is a very significant part of any GROUP that is playing the map as you can determine the enemy's location and give intel to your group, again, these changes would not affect the ability to do this.

Now, these are ideas that I was thinking about, obviously they could interpreted as terrible, or decent, I am completely open to feedback and other suggestions. I was hearing " NERF TEH CLOAKZ" but no real suggestions. I pitched my 2c.

Manoekin · January 2016

I was able to continuously and reliably get away from 10+ DC while on my level 11 nightblade that isn't even close to minmaxed or specced for magicka even. All because of Cloak. Being able to stay permanently invisible, and even at any point during combat is stupid plain and simple. Reliably getting the opener in any fight should be all you need. I'd either accept the suggestion of no Magicka regen while in cloak, or make it so players can not go invisible if they've done damage within a short period (few seconds) of time. IMO there should be some level of disengagement if you want to be gone from the fight.

Probably a lot of this is my frustration speaking, but yeah.

Alucardo · January 2016

It's really nice to see a Nightblade actually admit to how stupid cloak is in PVP, though I don't feel comfortable talking about it lest I get shot down.
So on that note, /lurk

CP5 · January 2016

I like the idea of the visual change. I messed around with that disguise for a while and aside from the bug particles I could be near invisible just standing in the open in some places, while in others (namely lit areas) you could easily spot the outline. This reminds me of other games where invisibility only renders the user transparent and has reduced effectiveness while moving. That kind of gameplay requires more skill form the user use but also gives meaningful counterplay (something this game doesn't really have much of). Think that's the best suggestion i've seen yet.

lolo_01b16_ESO · January 2016

If you add that and cloak still breaks on hit, you just need to have one person who tab targeted you and cloak will be useless.

Sykotical · January 2016

This would line up with the appearance of invisibility in previous TES titles, but it would then be a weaker invisibility than simply sneaking.

CP5 · January 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

If you add that and cloak still breaks on hit, you just need to have one person who tab targeted you and cloak will be useless.

How I looked at this is it would change the visual, not the "clears tab targeting" and "makes you impossible to hit with single target skills" parts. It would functionally work the same, just people who try to look for the nb would be able to see something, least from my take.

Master_Kas · January 2016

Maybe your idea together with some damage reduction while active or something ?: ) To make up for the squishy-ness. Flat damage reduction.

Otherwise nope.

WRX · January 2016

Cloak has so many issues right now that it still is easily counterable. Its pretty OP, but without it NB would have so major defensive issues. And honestly, a camo cloak thing just won't work. Any decent player with eyes and half the hemisphere of their brain will see it right away.

This is a nerf templar thread. #FIXDARKFLAE

bikerangelo · January 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Maybe your idea together with some damage reduction while active or something ?: ) To make up for the squishy-ness. Flat damage reduction.

Otherwise nope.

You mean mist form? No thanks.

Dark cloak is fine, it's the openers from stealth that bug the hell out of me. The only other class that can effectively counter a nightblade is a nightblade using mark target, otherwise it's all about guessing with aoe spam. I don't care if nightblades can cloak away from fights, but if they can open on me with stealth damage bonuses and take me to 30% health in less than a second, that's just dumb.

stealthyevil · January 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Maybe your idea together with some damage reduction while active or something ?: ) To make up for the squishy-ness. Flat damage reduction.

Otherwise nope.

A flat damage reduction, plus a flat damage increase while in cloak ? Not gonna happen, that will break the class for sure. The armor increase from activating a shadow ability is suitable enough to provide some sustain while you break cloak.

bikerangelo wrote: »

Dark cloak is fine, it's the openers from stealth that bug the hell out of me. The only other class that can effectively counter a nightblade is a nightblade using mark target, otherwise it's all about guessing with aoe spam. I don't care if nightblades can cloak away from fights, but if they can open on me with stealth damage bonuses and take me to 30% health in less than a second, that's just dumb.

Outside of mark target, the only way to effectively counter a NB in cloak is to spam AoE ORRRR use an invis pot. The opener from stealth is what makes the NB class what it is, taking that away might be detrimental. However, giving you the ability to see it coming might make it a bit avoidable.

WRX wrote: »

Cloak has so many issues right now that it still is easily counterable. Its pretty OP, but without it NB would have so major defensive issues. And honestly, a camo cloak thing just won't work. Any decent player with eyes and half the hemisphere of their brain will see it right away.

This is a nerf templar thread. #FIXDARKFLAE

But WRX in potato groups, how many of them use half the hemisphere ?

CP5 · January 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Maybe your idea together with some damage reduction while active or something ?: ) To make up for the squishy-ness. Flat damage reduction.

Otherwise nope.

What if I told you cloak already does give damage reduction? And max health for being slotted.

Knootewoot · January 2016

If cloak should get a visual "nerf" then so should stealth.

Stealh: player gets a blackísh look and it's name plate/alliance indicator does not show until someone is up close. no more invisible stealth

Stealhh for NB. Instead of blackish look, they are like the old ESO spells "chameleon". So they blend in with enviroment.

Cloak: does not need a change. If you just change the visual look, ie not invisible.. then what does cloak do? NOTHING

Edit: typo's but there may be more

Master_Kas · January 2016

CP5 wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Maybe your idea together with some damage reduction while active or something ?: ) To make up for the squishy-ness. Flat damage reduction.

Otherwise nope.

What if I told you cloak already does give damage reduction? And max health for being slotted.

Doesn't save you from the burst meta today, specially If you was visible like OP suggested.

I already know about the 5k ar/sr increase captain obvious. Ment more dmg migation IF you want to see a "cloaked" nb without using any counter (as the post suggested).

But nerf cloak so OP. Mimimi

Knootewoot · January 2016

Kollopi Essence disguise can be used in IC. I have seen many people use it. And it didn't work for them because they died. Because cloak does what it should do. Make you invisible so people can't hit you and target you. Kollopi Essence disguise makes you transparent and everybody can hit you and tab-target you so it's useless.

Cloak if fine. Buff it and add

- more time
- root/snare immunity
- 100% heal
- Over 9000 explosion when it is broken

Frawr · January 2016

Kollopi no longer works in IC unless they undid their previous fix.

Dark cloak frustrates me as a DK because the nb has a spammable instant dot clear skill akin to purge but also makes them invisible.

The skill was not designed in a balanced way. You cannot make 1 class into a dot build and then give everyone install dot removal because it completely negates the dot class.

Dark cloak should clear roots and snares but not all dots imo. I don't think it needs magicka regen nerf, that is a Bandaid fix like so many silly fixes that we currently have.

KenaPKK · January 2016

I'm all for decreased magicka regen for the 3 seconds that I'm in cloak if magicka sorcs get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Hardened Ward, templars get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casing Breath of Life, and magicka DK gets decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Dragon's Bl....nevermind, sorry DKs. Cloak is an unreliable skill with abundant counters, yet it must mitigate as much damage for mageblades as Hardened Ward does for magicka sorcs, BoL for templars, etc etc.

You're talking about gimping mageblade's primary defensive mechanism.

If you're so frustrated with cloak that you believe these changes are warranted, then you're a bad player. Plain and simple.

Worry about problems that actually exist, like how much more damage stamina is doing compared to magicka.

CP5 · January 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm all for decreased magicka regen for the 3 seconds that I'm in cloak if magicka sorcs get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Hardened Ward, templars get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casing Breath of Life, and magicka DK gets decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Dragon's Bl....nevermind, sorry DKs. Cloak is an unreliable skill with abundant counters, yet it must mitigate as much damage for mageblades as Hardened Ward does for magicka sorcs, BoL for templars, etc etc.

You're talking about gimping mageblade's primary defensive mechanism.

If you're so frustrated with cloak that you believe these changes are warranted, then you're a bad player. Plain and simple.

Worry about problems that actually exist, like how much more damage stamina is doing compared to magicka.
...

So, a skill that acts like a magicka based dodge roll, that adds max health for being slotted, that procs major resist buffs on cast, that purges up to 4 dots, that clears tab targeting and can be combined with heals from other NB skills must be as powerful as breath of life or hardened ward?

stealthyevil · January 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm all for decreased magicka regen for the 3 seconds that I'm in cloak if magicka sorcs get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Hardened Ward, templars get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casing Breath of Life, and magicka DK gets decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Dragon's Bl....nevermind, sorry DKs. Cloak is an unreliable skill with abundant counters, yet it must mitigate as much damage for mageblades as Hardened Ward does for magicka sorcs, BoL for templars, etc etc.

You're talking about gimping mageblade's primary defensive mechanism.

If you're so frustrated with cloak that you believe these changes are warranted, then you're a bad player. Plain and simple.

Worry about problems that actually exist, like how much more damage stamina is doing compared to magicka.

What if I told you I am a magicka NB

I'm not saying that cloak needs a nerf, or any changes. I want to see suggestions by the community instead of mindlessly calling for a nerf to cloak. I understand where you are coming from and I very much agree with you. I was just throwing out ideas since nobody else seemed to want to lol

Master_Kas · January 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm all for decreased magicka regen for the 3 seconds that I'm in cloak if magicka sorcs get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Hardened Ward, templars get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casing Breath of Life, and magicka DK gets decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Dragon's Bl....nevermind, sorry DKs. Cloak is an unreliable skill with abundant counters, yet it must mitigate as much damage for mageblades as Hardened Ward does for magicka sorcs, BoL for templars, etc etc.

You're talking about gimping mageblade's primary defensive mechanism.

If you're so frustrated with cloak that you believe these changes are warranted, then you're a bad player. Plain and simple.

Worry about problems that actually exist, like how much more damage stamina is doing compared to magicka.

Ara_Valleria · January 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

I'm all for decreased magicka regen for the 3 seconds that I'm in cloak if magicka sorcs get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Hardened Ward, templars get decreased regen for 3 seconds after casing Breath of Life, and magicka DK gets decreased regen for 3 seconds after casting Dragon's Bl....nevermind, sorry DKs. Cloak is an unreliable skill with abundant counters, yet it must mitigate as much damage for mageblades as Hardened Ward does for magicka sorcs, BoL for templars, etc etc.

You're talking about gimping mageblade's primary defensive mechanism.

If you're so frustrated with cloak that you believe these changes are warranted, then you're a bad player. Plain and simple.

Worry about problems that actually exist, like how much more damage stamina is doing compared to magicka.

Couldn't agree more.

Sharee · January 2016

All that needs to be done is revert the latest nerf to detection potion duration. I played a NB back then when they lasted 30+ seconds, and it was fine.

OdinForge · January 2016

I'm going to start recording more of my fails, specifically highlighting all the times cloak fails me when I need it most, and my voice reactions. Just make a new series called ESO PvP - Cloak Fails & Frustrations, may also act as a guide to other classes to see how to work around cloak.

Go ahead and lets turn cloak into some active camofail BS, but give it a 50% damage mitigation that I can stack with block, ffs.

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Ryuho · January 2016

Sharee wrote: »

All that needs to be done is revert the latest nerf to detection potion duration. I played a NB back then when they lasted 30+ seconds, and it was fine.

Yes I agree with @Sharee, maybe not completly revert det pots, but make them at least last ~20s with 10s cd.. U need to waste potion cd on detect pot so imo would be fair..

Brrrofski · January 2016

Nightblades aren't saying in stealth around me.

I think cloak is fine as it is.

Soulac · January 2016

Don't give a damn about stealth, but don't touch my already broken cloak

I already get marked in near every encounter and in group fights it doesn't work since the floor is literally Caltrops.
On top of that burning embers and entropy will break it every single time as well.

Tbh whatever, the game is dead anyway

frozywozy · January 2016

It's funny to see all the typical nightblades who run one shot build defending their precious cloak. In the end of the day, I'm pretty sure that at least 70% of the player base run a nightblade nowadays and it says it all. That percentage probably goes up to 90% in sewers. Cloak should be an ultimate that works like Overload. Stealth should not be a thing unless you are close to objects. Put Mark Target in the Alliance War or Bow tree line.

FMonk · January 2016

For the nightblades who are still whining about cloak being "broken", it's not. Nightblade was the first class I played, starting in beta, and cloak had lots of issues back then, but it has been working as intended for a while. Most of the complaints come from people who don't understand what is supposed to break you out of cloak.

As far as it being too strong, I have no issue dealing with cloak when playing on a stam build, since caltrops and steel tornado have such a huge aoe to break it. Magicka aoes are so small that it's really hard to pull a NB out of cloak. Would like to see a detect pot buff or a buff to revealing flare so that it's actually worth slotting outside of one niche purpose.

And I'd rather they get rid of the stupid cost stacking/regen cancelling, but if they're going to keep those on streak, dodge and block, they should probably add something to cloak for balance too.

Crown · January 2016

I've played a magicka NB from day 1 through AR50, and have always loved cloak. The reason it is so powerful is that PEOPLE DON'T BOTHER TO THINK ABOUT COUNTERING IT.

How many of you run Radiant Magelight on a bar while travelling between keeps? There are outfitter addons to swap bars with the touch of a button that make it easy.

How many of you drop a caltrops defensively when you stop moving and will stay in one place for a while?

How many of you see a NB cloak and hit bombard or steel tornado (or any other AoE) to bring them out?

Since I started playing my stam DK with bombard on one bar and caltrops on the other, very few NBs have escaped from me. If they're moving away from me, a bombard snares and reveals them. If they're doing the dodge in and out to keep 100% crit from disguise, a caltrops makes it impossible for them to succeed. If my group stops moving and stacks, unless we're stealthing, my caltrops is always centred on us or the primary ingress point to us for defensive purposes.

I dare say that people who complain about cloak simply don't bother to use or arrange for someone close to them (in group) to use one of the MANY counters to it.

RinaldoGandolphi · January 2016

Radiant Magelight is useless in this update its bugged, I have had Nightblades Cloak right next to me and i can't see them right away because the skill ticks in 0.5sec increments and during that time a Nightblade can unload on you.

Also, RML doesn't prevent stealth attacks like Concealed Weapon from stunning you even though its tooltip says it prevents ALL stealth attacks from stunning you...RML costs 2 bars(if you want it up all the time) and 5% of your max magic to use, Veiled Strike should not stun someone slotting it...it makes the skill pointless.

The problem with this game is the lack of Alteration Spells. The Mage's Guild is not stupid. The Psyjiic Order(which predates the Mage's Guild) has been countering Invisibility and Vampire invisibility for centuries before the second era with Detect Life and Detect Dead spells.

Yes Detect Life Spells allow its caster to see and hear the living's heartbeat even if they are invisible, and Detect Dead spells allow its caster to preceive the essence of the undead even if they are invisible, the spell was designed specifically to fight Vampires and Liches...but in ESO...the Mage's Guild has simply forgotten all the spells the Psyjiic Order knows even though Gallerion and Mannimarco who both trained on the Isle of Arteamum along with the Order of the Worm are alive and well in ESO, they just magically forget these relatively low level spells....

WRX · January 2016

FMonk wrote: »

For the nightblades who are still whining about cloak being "broken", it's not. Nightblade was the first class I played, starting in beta, and cloak had lots of issues back then, but it has been working as intended for a while. Most of the complaints come from people who don't understand what is supposed to break you out of cloak.

As far as it being too strong, I have no issue dealing with cloak when playing on a stam build, since caltrops and steel tornado have such a huge aoe to break it. Magicka aoes are so small that it's really hard to pull a NB out of cloak. Would like to see a detect pot buff or a buff to revealing flare so that it's actually worth slotting outside of one niche purpose.

And I'd rather they get rid of the stupid cost stacking, regen cancelling, but if they're going to keep those on streak, dodge and block, they should probably add something to cloak for balance too.

The only thing I will definitely say is broken regarding cloak, and a huge pain in the ass, is dark flare.

That isn't a ground targeted AoE, its much like meteor. You can cloak meteor, but if its dark flare you just eat the 8k+ damage.