Should Magic-users do more damage with Staves than when Dual-Wielding?

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

In my view, it evens out because the Destruction staff gives you access to several abilities that deal solid damage while dual wielding means essentially, you have more spell damage but you don't have a weapon.

Plus, bonus! You look like a jaggoff running around with two swords, casting crystal frags over and over :P

So why does this mean that, by not having a 'weapon', that they should receive several times more spell damage and options with crafted sets than those who actually do have a usable weapon? It doesn't make ANY logical sense. Plus, there are few Destro staff abilities that do 'solid' damage... which is why most staff wielders don't actually use any staff abilities other than to proc Crystal Frags or for Impulse for AoE which still lacks. Also keep in mind that Desto staff was nerfed a short while ago when they severely lowered the elemental proc rate.

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

However if you duel wield, you similarly gain access to that skill line, which has a few abilities that are at least situationally useful even without much stamina: steel tornado and quick cloak.

Have you ever tried using Steel Tornado without speccing into Stamina? The damage is pathetic and you burn through your Stamina pool with only two or three attacks. I actually tried this on my Magicka Sorc, figured that since I'm using DW I could use Steel Tornado and conserve Magicka, it was an EPIC fail.

Resipsa131 · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Sorcs can only get away with DW on the back bar and zero health because they/we have hardened ward.if Sorcs didn't have hardened Ward most end game users would be forced to compensate health (unlikely) or run resto on the back bar for healing Ward. I'm not advocating that they shouldn't have hardened Ward I really like it but because of this Sorcs are pigeonholed into destro/DW. If Staves did the same spell damage you'd kill variety for NB, Templar, and DK classes.

What I'd rather see is a destro stave passive that increases spell penetration to help destro users.

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Sorcs can only get away with DW on the back bar and zero health because they/we have hardened ward.if Sorcs didn't have hardened Ward most end game users would be forced to compensate health (unlikely) or run resto on the back bar for healing Ward. I'm not advocating that they shouldn't have hardened Ward I really like it but because of this Sorcs are pigeonholed into destro/DW. If Staves did the same spell damage you'd kill variety for NB, Templar, and DK classes.

What I'd rather see is a destro stave passive that increases spell penetration to help destro users.

Funny, because I use DW on my primary bar and Destro secondary on my Magicka Sorc. The only reason I have Destro on secondary is for Elemental Ring AoE, otherwise I'd just use Resto for secondary bar. But on my primary bar using Mage's Wrath to proc Crystal Frag with Velocious Curse thrown into the mix... taking advantage of DW's additional Spell Damage I demolish pretty much everything. My secondary bar consists of Hardened Ward, Power Surge and Elemental Ring... I use Magelight on both and either Clannfear or Bound Aegis as the other toggle depending on content.

Resipsa131 · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

ADarklore wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Sorcs can only get away with DW on the back bar and zero health because they/we have hardened ward.if Sorcs didn't have hardened Ward most end game users would be forced to compensate health (unlikely) or run resto on the back bar for healing Ward. I'm not advocating that they shouldn't have hardened Ward I really like it but because of this Sorcs are pigeonholed into destro/DW. If Staves did the same spell damage you'd kill variety for NB, Templar, and DK classes.

What I'd rather see is a destro stave passive that increases spell penetration to help destro users.

Funny, because I use DW on my primary bar and Destro secondary on my Magicka Sorc. The only reason I have Destro on secondary is for Elemental Ring AoE, otherwise I'd just use Resto for secondary bar. But on my primary bar using Mage's Wrath to proc Crystal Frag with Velocious Curse thrown into the mix... taking advantage of DW's additional Spell Damage I demolish pretty much everything. My secondary bar consists of Hardened Ward, Power Surge and Elemental Ring... I use Magelight on both and either Clannfear or Bound Aegis as the other toggle depending on content.

Fair enough, think weaving light attacks with force pulse is better to proc Crystal Frags but each his own you're still using DW/Destro. My point is that if you made Destro Staves equal in terms of spell damage to DW you'd kill build variety on the other three classes.

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

My point is that if you made Destro Staves equal in terms of spell damage to DW you'd kill build variety on the other three classes.

Why is that? If all things are equal, that means MORE choices not less. It would actually give more people options instead of feeling like they HAVE TO run DW in order to get the best damage. I'd prefer to run Destro/Resto but feel like I HAVE TO run DW in order to do the best damage- which is true. So in reality, this is killing options instead of giving me more.

Resipsa131 · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

ADarklore wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

My point is that if you made Destro Staves equal in terms of spell damage to DW you'd kill build variety on the other three classes.

Why is that? If all things are equal, that means MORE choices not less. It would actually give more people options instead of feeling like they HAVE TO run DW in order to get the best damage. I'd prefer to run Destro/Resto but feel like I HAVE TO run DW in order to do the best damage- which is true. So in reality, this is killing options instead of giving me more.

Sorcs are pigeon holed into Destro/DW mainly because they want best damage with DW, have Hardened Ward (They don't need a resto), and need Destro (for spammable AoE) Best damage doesn't help if you are dead, while I have a V16 DK he's Stamina based so I'm only going to use my V16 Magblade as an example; In PvE solo I'm going Destro/DW, In PvP I run DW/Resto I've seen plenty of Mag Blades in PvE and PvP run Destro/Resto, Destro/DW, DW/Resto, If Destro provided the same amount of Spell damage you'd only see Destro/Resto.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Laranoye wrote: »

Couldnt they just add a Passive to all the 2handers... to allow the 2hander to count towards 2 in a set? And also increase spellpower the same if not higher than duel wield.

Any other game in existence the offhand on duel wield is penalized by ALOT so 2handers are always usually better but a bit slower.

However duel wield in this game seems to trump everything.

The first part may not work base phys damage on weapons= base spell damage I think it is hardcoded plus ZOS tends to put only ifs in these types of passives or break something. Finally why the hell should staff users have to spend a skill point to get what DW gets without one!?

edit: reread and rewrote comment

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

I would love to see one of those famous stickies from @Wrobel about this as this is another huge issue, weapon imbalance.

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

... If Destro provided the same amount of Spell damage you'd only see Destro/Resto.

I disagree... because DW has the benefit of an additional crafted set bonus- more Mag. Regen, Max Magicka, or more Spell Damage, etc. So you'd still have min/maxers using DW regardless if spell damage of Staff/DW weapons ever became directly equal; DW would still always have an advantage because of their access to an additional crafted set.

KenaPKK · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

It makes sense that a melee setup would have higher damage than a ranged one because melee brings increased risk.

Also sorcs have enough damage right now. They're fine.

However, staff setups on the other 3 magicka classes are rather low in damage compared to sorcs.

Joy_Division · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

KenaPKK wrote: »

It makes sense that a melee setup would have higher damage than a ranged one because melee brings increased risk.

Also sorcs have enough damage right now. They're fine.

However, staff setups on the other 3 magicka classes are rather low in damage compared to sorcs.

It does not make sense because my sorc "melees" from 28 meters away.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Joy_Division wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

It makes sense that a melee setup would have higher damage than a ranged one because melee brings increased risk.

Also sorcs have enough damage right now. They're fine.

However, staff setups on the other 3 magicka classes are rather low in damage compared to sorcs.

It does not make sense because my sorc "melees" from 28 meters away.

And most other classes that DW even stamina, spin to win.

Resipsa131 · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Joy_Division wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

It makes sense that a melee setup would have higher damage than a ranged one because melee brings increased risk.

Also sorcs have enough damage right now. They're fine.

However, staff setups on the other 3 magicka classes are rather low in damage compared to sorcs.

It does not make sense because my sorc "melees" from 28 meters away.

It makes sense for my magblade as he's throwing magical daggers at enemies from that far.

ADarklore wrote: »

Resipsa131 wrote: »

... If Destro provided the same amount of Spell damage you'd only see Destro/Resto.

I disagree... because DW has the benefit of an additional crafted set bonus- more Mag. Regen, Max Magicka, or more Spell Damage, etc. So you'd still have min/maxers using DW regardless if spell damage of Staff/DW weapons ever became directly equal; DW would still always have an advantage because of their access to an additional crafted set.

If you could get 2 decent 5 sets for DPS this might be true but you can't. Best in slot for magicka Sorcs DPS right now is 5 piece Julionos, willpower jewelry, Kena head and shoulders or Torugs shoulders and torugs pact swords, if it's destruction staff maelstrom gives you esentially the same set bonus as torugs 2 piece set bonus so if destro staves gave you the same spell power you'd always choose destro over DW

Reefo · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Last night i noticed that two handed weapon gives more spell damage than dual wield, confirmed??

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

bump

Spacemonkey · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

What I think is that 2H weaps should be the equivalent in stats as 2 items. In enchantment, in trait, in SET BONUS.

Or a balance of this. (If it doesnt count as two items for set bonus, it should have better stats than 2 items together etc... or opposite and yadiyadiyada)

Or give skill lines for staves and 2H significantly better. (more than just 1 or 2 skills - 2H currently has WB and Rally which is very strong which is why it doesnt really cause an issue - staves not so much)

Jsmalls · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

wrathofrraath wrote: »

It'd be cool if staves were two pieces, 1 pc for the wood 1 pc for the sigil atop the staff. Rare unigue 1pc staff sigils would be pretty sweet

Im not against this but if it happens Maelstrom Destruction Staves need a buff... You could easily make a Nirnhorned Turog Pact staff that would outperform a Masters Staff considerably. Nirnhorned Staves are performing better in most circumstances already...

KramUzibra · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

beerninja wrote: »

@Wrobel In this ESO Live right at this moment: https://youtu.be/ag9LVGjVzMA?t=1h2m17s you explained that dual wielding was a tradeoff for more spell damage at the loss of being able to regain magicka via heavy attacks, which makes sense, however in eso the weapon swapping mechanic exists in the game which completely negates that argument. Therefore as a spell caster for the damage dealing bar the only choice is currently dual wield for maximum damage.

This does not seem to make sense to anyone. The spell damage with dual wield should be identical to destruction staff and the only benefit of using dual wield would be for a possibility of having 1 extra item set perk at the expense of no medium or light weaves (unless you get in melee range).

I agree with @Wrobel dude knows what he's talking about in this case. Guess that's why he has the job.

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

Where's the option for both being equal in terms of damage output?

I want to play how I want to play. Not what is the only min/max weapon...

KramUzibra · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

taking advantage of DW's additional Spell Damage I demolish pretty much everything.

Sounds to me like your doing just fine with DW. I guess there's no need to give magic users a boost when wielding a staff.

Plus I hate the look of a staff on my character. I like being a magical dual wielder I look bad ass.

KramUzibra · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

How do i change my vote?

Baconlad · January 2016

Well I've been thinking about this for awhile, I think they need a dual wield magick line. Think like "stones" you have three of the destruction magicka different kinds stones, you can mix and match like you can have a sword in one hand and axe in the other. It would be a medium range (like two meters more range than DW currently. Maybe a passive to increase the range of abilities by three meters. I don't know. Would be cool to see lightning and flame spewing from your hands instead of the staff

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

As the title states, should Magicka-users using Staves do more damage/heal more damage when using Staves than a Magicka-user Dual-Wielding Swords?

Let's see if we can get enough support to get this ship righted.

1. They already do...sorcs have a DW bar strictly for a buff to overload...the rest is done on the staff bar because hardcast frags《force pulse weave.
2. 2. Any DK that is not using a staff is doing it wrong (dps loss)
3. Templars and NB do magic damage so they buff Thaumaturge first. If we had enough CP we would max elemental expert and staff expert and then no one would be dual wielding.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

As the title states, should Magicka-users using Staves do more damage/heal more damage when using Staves than a Magicka-user Dual-Wielding Swords?

Let's see if we can get enough support to get this ship righted.

1. They already do...sorcs have a DW bar strictly for a buff to overload...the rest is done on the staff bar because hardcast frags《force pulse weave.
2. 2. Any DK that is not using a staff is doing it wrong (dps loss)
3. Templars and NB do magic damage so they buff Thaumaturge first. If we had enough CP we would max elemental expert and staff expert and then no one would be dual wielding.

Well even if they do magic damage and are buffed by magic CP they still benefit a lot more from dual wielding than using a staff due to dual wielding having much higher spell damage than staves which CPs cannot alter at all. basically staff=DPS loss for those who use them.

Lexxypwns · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

KenaPKK wrote: »

It makes sense that a melee setup would have higher damage than a ranged one because melee brings increased risk.

Also sorcs have enough damage right now. They're fine.

However, staff setups on the other 3 magicka classes are rather low in damage compared to sorcs.

So much this, if you buff destro staff then magika sorc would definitely slip out of balance.

If you nerf DW spell damage then you put mag DK, templar, and NB in a worse place

Tyrion87 · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

There is also another thread according to which two-handed weapons also increase the spell power more than the staves.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241977/spell-damage-goes-through-the-roof-when-i-equip-a-two-hander
It's not only weird, but it's obviously ridiculous!
Not to mention that while dual wielding, you can equip two Torug's Pact weapons which count as two pieces of the set granting you the spell damage bonus. That's why I also think that all two-handed weapons (staves, greatswords) should be counted as two for the set purposes.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Could you tell us whether you're working on this issue or at least are you familiar with this? Does it really work as intended?
Apparently most of us want some changes making the staves more competitive, especially for magicka sorcs.

mistermutiny89 · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

I voted yes because I believe spell damage based off of staves does require a buff however I do understand the trade off.

For instance a magicka Dunmer dk that's put engulfing flames on a target will do much more dps with a fire staff along with the range option.

However, despite the break in Elder Scrolls lore I still believe Mage builds should have a melee weapon like chakaras or spectral daggers dealing magicka damage and giving us that option of wearing/using nine items without losing out on light attack damage. We already struggle to get our spell damage up as much as stamina builds thanks to armour passive imbalances. That's coming from someone who plays both.

The weapon damage and bonuses just adds more salt to our wounds.

dday3six · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Using DW is burst at the expense of sustain and utility. Most PVE Magicka Sorcs, DKs, and NBs use a staff main bar, in PVP things are different. Fights are shorter, and burst is more important to overcome defenses. However some Magicka builds still opt for Staves for greater utility.

HxC · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Giving the best raw spell damage to a weapon with infinite sustainability will be a poor gamedesign decision.
Only because some conservative people want to play their sorcerer like it was in 90's fantasy Rpg and have the best stats.

All Magical user are not Sorcerer and don't have a broken ultimate , currently staves are for elemental damage dealer and DW for Magical damage dealer.

It's not because Gandalf have a staff in his hands that all Sorcerer in every fantasy Rpg should use a Staff.

If you want exact raw spell damage and each weapon you need to have magical ability and utility on all weapons to balance them.

The_Lex · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Eddzo101 wrote: »

Staves are built for magic damage
Leave Gandalf alone
He didn't get that sword till he found it in the troll cave with Bilbo in the Hobbit

That and TES is not a Tolkien copypasta fantasy game. Never was. Hope it never will be.