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Suggested NB changes
bowmanz607
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Below are suggestions for changes to nb skills. This is not a discussion on NB skills compared to other class skills. Other classes obviously have their issues and should get a separate thread for discussion. This is also not about NB being better or worse than other classes. I believe changes suggested below along with other classes being balanced is the key to creating balance. Simply calling buff or nerf to a single class is silly. That said, even you NB haters should like at least some of the changes suggested. Last, Passives will not be discussed. I think the passives for this class are solid and should remain unchanged.
Disclaimer: My main is a stam NB. However, I do flip flop between mag and stam. That said, I am familiar with all classes and play all classes. NB is the class I identify with and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground, nor do i like having a class that gets crapped on because it is deemed OP. Either your class under performs and you cant have fun or people hate tell you and say you have no skill because the class is deemed OP. I want to see both disappear. Last, I making these suggestions in hopes that physical damage and magic damage will be balanced in the champion tree. ZOS seems to be suggesting in another thread that they will be removing the quick recovery star, so hopefully that will be replaced with a physical damage reduction star.
ASSASSINATION SKILLS:
-Death Stroke:
This ultimate and its morphs are fine as is. I would like to see one of the morphs receive physical damage. This is a melee twin blade type of move, so it would be logical to make physical damage. Much along the same line of thought that makes it alright for surprise attack to be physical damage.
-Assassin's Blade:
This skill and Impale morph are fine as is.
I would like to see killers blade become physical damage for the same reasons mentioned above.
-Teleport Strike:
This ability and Lotus Fan morph are fine as is.
Ambush should not have the Empowering buff. This skill is unique enough in the fact that it has no minimum range and can be used from varying elevations. Not to mention, it is the only stamina based gap closer available as a class skill. It is silly to add an Empowering buff. The main issue that many associate with this skill is spamming it and perma rooting. However, that is a gap closer issue not an ambush issue. I am also for getting rid of the immobolize. Although this is not the cause of the perma root that many believe I think we should add something else to this ability. Perhaps a minor healing debuff or a DOT like lotus fan.
-Blur:
Blur and the Double Take morph are fine as is.
Mirage needs to be reworked. Tanks feel free to chime in here since I dont tank, but i know for a DPS or Healer that 1k armor or spell resistance is just crap. I would like to see this buff dropped and changed. Maybe a morph that removes snares much like shuffle but it wont make you immune from snares making shuffle still unique. This way you will have a way to increase mobility or remove snares via a mag dump.
-Mark Target:
Marked Target and Piercing Mark morph are fine as is.
Reapers mark needs to have its damage increased for at least 10 seconds to make it a more viable choice. This would need some testing. Increasing the duration could result in the ability being OP with the amount of increased damage. So the damage buff may need to be tweaked because of an increase in duration. Finding the sweet spot between duration and damage is the key here. As it stand, the duration is to short to make it worth using.
-Grim Focus:
This skill and its morphs are fine as is. The balance for this ability will come when the champion tree is balanced and people spread there points more making magic damage more useful.
SHADOW SKILLS:
-Consuming Darkness:
This ability and both of the morphs are fine as is.
-Shadow Cloak:
Although I do believe this ability overall is fine as is with all of the counters to cloak, I do understand that mag NB perma cloaking is an issue. I would not be opposed to a reduction in mag recovery for the time that the skill is keeping you in stealth. This would not kill it for stam users while killing perma cloaking. It will also only debuff recovery while in stealth which overcomes the problem of having to spam the ability two or three times to get it to work. Many people say that it should receive an set cost increase on each use but the fact is that this ability is not 100% every time making a player having to hit the ability 2 or 3 times for it to work. A cost increase on each use would kill all builds not just stam.
Shadowy Disguise needs to be reworked. This skill is useless. Perhaps the empowering buff can be added to this ability. Maybe a HOT. Maybe increased mobility or remove snares. Maybe increased duration. Maybe reduces aoe damage. Something else besides crit.
Dark cloak is fine as is.
-Veiled Strike:
I think this ability should lose the stun. The fact that this is an instant cast high DPS attack that no other class can use is enough. The stun is too much. This applies to all morphs.
Concealed Weapon is fine as long as you lose the stun.
Surprise attack needs to lose the armor debuff. This ability is unique enough in that it is the only stam based instant cast DPS and the strongest hitting one just on base damage. It is silly to add an armor debuff to increase DPS even more. Not to mention, the debuff can be utilized through reapers mark if the player so chooses. Keep the base damage but lose the stun and the debuff.
-Path of Darkness:
This ability needs to have its DOT increased.
Twisting path needs to have its DOT increased.
Refreshing path needs to have its healing increased.
(These increases do not have to be a large amount but at least a small increase is needed.)
-Aspect of Terror:
This ability is fine as is. However, the animation needs to be fixed. This goes for all of the morphs.
Manifestation of Terror is fine as is. I think this is a very underrated NB ability especially for groups. Dropping this ability on a flag or breach as a raid is pushing through and fearing all of them is awesome especially when timed with a counter attack.
Mass Hysteria the very controversial one. This skill should 100% go through block and be an aoe. Not only is this a unique feature for a NB to have, but it adds an extra dynamic to the game. That said, that is why the ability needs to go down to a 2-3 second duration. (start with 3 and test out 2 and see how the ability is affected.) Also, the ability needs to lose the damage debuff. Back when the ability was made stamina did not have vigor and rally to rely on. The damage reduction for stam builds was key for survival. As the game currently stands, vigor and rally keep stam builds up with sipohing abilites and resto keeping mag builds up. The damage reduction is no longer a necessity for survival. The snare should stay. The morph has to be differentiated some how from the base skill. Maybe reduce the snare to 30-40% but no less.
-Summon Shade:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
SIPHONING SKILLS:
-Soul Shred:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Strife:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Agony:
This is the only ability I can not really speak on. I have no use for it with any build I run. IMO it should be scrapped and replaced with something new. However, I know players that like this ability and enjoy using it, so perhaps it is worth keeping. I say ZOS should let the numbers decide like they did with haste.
-Cripple:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. Maybe the Debilitate morph could be reworked but it is not bad.
-Siphoning Strikes:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. However, as i mentioned before, I do not play a NB tank and so would like to hear some input on the leeching strikes morph. I do not use it as a DPS or Healer, but I imagine it is servicable for a tank. Perhaps providing more heals or make it also have a 10% chance of restoring health when using an ability, but keep stam and mag recovery on basic attacks. (also, health on basic attacks.) However, keep it a toggle so that there is some detriment to using it. That seems reasonable to me.
Some think that siphoning attacks should have an increased duration. I disagree with this. 15 seconds is the sweet spot to keep it from being OP. If the duration is increased, then the recovery would have to be decreased.
-Drain Power:
This ability and the sap essence morph are fine as is.
Power Extraction needs to be reworked. The damage is lower then the other stamina based aoe available in the weapon skills such as Bombard and Steel Tornado. Ofcourse that may be because it is magic damage so this can be addressed by balancing the champ tree or by making it physical damage. It may be ahrd to justify making this physical damage. The damage on this ability should be revisited after the balance incoming. However, this ability should lose the major brutality buff. It makes since for Sap Essence to get Major Sorcery buff because the only other place to get that for a mag build is the Mages Guild Tree. However, there are plenty of places to get Major Brutality from for a stam build such as Rally and Hidden Blade. This buff is useless for a stam build. I say drop the Major Brutality buff and add empowering to this ability. If not Empowering than another buff of some sort or a DOT.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments?
Remember this is not a debate on NB have this or not this compared to other classes. You want to talk about other classes then make a thread to balance the other classes. I feel my feedback has provided a balance adjustment to NB that both sides will like. Please limit discussion to NB skills. (even passives).
Disclaimer: My main is a stam NB. However, I do flip flop between mag and stam. That said, I am familiar with all classes and play all classes. NB is the class I identify with and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground, nor do i like having a class that gets crapped on because it is deemed OP. Either your class under performs and you cant have fun or people hate tell you and say you have no skill because the class is deemed OP. I want to see both disappear. Last, I making these suggestions in hopes that physical damage and magic damage will be balanced in the champion tree. ZOS seems to be suggesting in another thread that they will be removing the quick recovery star, so hopefully that will be replaced with a physical damage reduction star.
ASSASSINATION SKILLS:
-Death Stroke:
This ultimate and its morphs are fine as is. I would like to see one of the morphs receive physical damage. This is a melee twin blade type of move, so it would be logical to make physical damage. Much along the same line of thought that makes it alright for surprise attack to be physical damage.
-Assassin's Blade:
This skill and Impale morph are fine as is.
I would like to see killers blade become physical damage for the same reasons mentioned above.
-Teleport Strike:
This ability and Lotus Fan morph are fine as is.
Ambush should not have the Empowering buff. This skill is unique enough in the fact that it has no minimum range and can be used from varying elevations. Not to mention, it is the only stamina based gap closer available as a class skill. It is silly to add an Empowering buff. The main issue that many associate with this skill is spamming it and perma rooting. However, that is a gap closer issue not an ambush issue. I am also for getting rid of the immobolize. Although this is not the cause of the perma root that many believe I think we should add something else to this ability. Perhaps a minor healing debuff or a DOT like lotus fan.
-Blur:
Blur and the Double Take morph are fine as is.
Mirage needs to be reworked. Tanks feel free to chime in here since I dont tank, but i know for a DPS or Healer that 1k armor or spell resistance is just crap. I would like to see this buff dropped and changed. Maybe a morph that removes snares much like shuffle but it wont make you immune from snares making shuffle still unique. This way you will have a way to increase mobility or remove snares via a mag dump.
-Mark Target:
Marked Target and Piercing Mark morph are fine as is.
Reapers mark needs to have its damage increased for at least 10 seconds to make it a more viable choice. This would need some testing. Increasing the duration could result in the ability being OP with the amount of increased damage. So the damage buff may need to be tweaked because of an increase in duration. Finding the sweet spot between duration and damage is the key here. As it stand, the duration is to short to make it worth using.
-Grim Focus:
This skill and its morphs are fine as is. The balance for this ability will come when the champion tree is balanced and people spread there points more making magic damage more useful.
SHADOW SKILLS:
-Consuming Darkness:
This ability and both of the morphs are fine as is.
-Shadow Cloak:
Although I do believe this ability overall is fine as is with all of the counters to cloak, I do understand that mag NB perma cloaking is an issue. I would not be opposed to a reduction in mag recovery for the time that the skill is keeping you in stealth. This would not kill it for stam users while killing perma cloaking. It will also only debuff recovery while in stealth which overcomes the problem of having to spam the ability two or three times to get it to work. Many people say that it should receive an set cost increase on each use but the fact is that this ability is not 100% every time making a player having to hit the ability 2 or 3 times for it to work. A cost increase on each use would kill all builds not just stam.
Shadowy Disguise needs to be reworked. This skill is useless. Perhaps the empowering buff can be added to this ability. Maybe a HOT. Maybe increased mobility or remove snares. Maybe increased duration. Maybe reduces aoe damage. Something else besides crit.
Dark cloak is fine as is.
-Veiled Strike:
I think this ability should lose the stun. The fact that this is an instant cast high DPS attack that no other class can use is enough. The stun is too much. This applies to all morphs.
Concealed Weapon is fine as long as you lose the stun.
Surprise attack needs to lose the armor debuff. This ability is unique enough in that it is the only stam based instant cast DPS and the strongest hitting one just on base damage. It is silly to add an armor debuff to increase DPS even more. Not to mention, the debuff can be utilized through reapers mark if the player so chooses. Keep the base damage but lose the stun and the debuff.
-Path of Darkness:
This ability needs to have its DOT increased.
Twisting path needs to have its DOT increased.
Refreshing path needs to have its healing increased.
(These increases do not have to be a large amount but at least a small increase is needed.)
-Aspect of Terror:
This ability is fine as is. However, the animation needs to be fixed. This goes for all of the morphs.
Manifestation of Terror is fine as is. I think this is a very underrated NB ability especially for groups. Dropping this ability on a flag or breach as a raid is pushing through and fearing all of them is awesome especially when timed with a counter attack.
Mass Hysteria the very controversial one. This skill should 100% go through block and be an aoe. Not only is this a unique feature for a NB to have, but it adds an extra dynamic to the game. That said, that is why the ability needs to go down to a 2-3 second duration. (start with 3 and test out 2 and see how the ability is affected.) Also, the ability needs to lose the damage debuff. Back when the ability was made stamina did not have vigor and rally to rely on. The damage reduction for stam builds was key for survival. As the game currently stands, vigor and rally keep stam builds up with sipohing abilites and resto keeping mag builds up. The damage reduction is no longer a necessity for survival. The snare should stay. The morph has to be differentiated some how from the base skill. Maybe reduce the snare to 30-40% but no less.
-Summon Shade:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
SIPHONING SKILLS:
-Soul Shred:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Strife:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Agony:
This is the only ability I can not really speak on. I have no use for it with any build I run. IMO it should be scrapped and replaced with something new. However, I know players that like this ability and enjoy using it, so perhaps it is worth keeping. I say ZOS should let the numbers decide like they did with haste.
-Cripple:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. Maybe the Debilitate morph could be reworked but it is not bad.
-Siphoning Strikes:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. However, as i mentioned before, I do not play a NB tank and so would like to hear some input on the leeching strikes morph. I do not use it as a DPS or Healer, but I imagine it is servicable for a tank. Perhaps providing more heals or make it also have a 10% chance of restoring health when using an ability, but keep stam and mag recovery on basic attacks. (also, health on basic attacks.) However, keep it a toggle so that there is some detriment to using it. That seems reasonable to me.
Some think that siphoning attacks should have an increased duration. I disagree with this. 15 seconds is the sweet spot to keep it from being OP. If the duration is increased, then the recovery would have to be decreased.
-Drain Power:
This ability and the sap essence morph are fine as is.
Power Extraction needs to be reworked. The damage is lower then the other stamina based aoe available in the weapon skills such as Bombard and Steel Tornado. Ofcourse that may be because it is magic damage so this can be addressed by balancing the champ tree or by making it physical damage. It may be ahrd to justify making this physical damage. The damage on this ability should be revisited after the balance incoming. However, this ability should lose the major brutality buff. It makes since for Sap Essence to get Major Sorcery buff because the only other place to get that for a mag build is the Mages Guild Tree. However, there are plenty of places to get Major Brutality from for a stam build such as Rally and Hidden Blade. This buff is useless for a stam build. I say drop the Major Brutality buff and add empowering to this ability. If not Empowering than another buff of some sort or a DOT.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments?
Remember this is not a debate on NB have this or not this compared to other classes. You want to talk about other classes then make a thread to balance the other classes. I feel my feedback has provided a balance adjustment to NB that both sides will like. Please limit discussion to NB skills. (even passives).
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I applaud your suggestions, OP. It's clear that you care about balance. I like your thoughts on magicka regen during Cloak. I also like removing the secondary effects from Concealed Weapon and Surprise Attack. I generally think it's a terrible idea to add CC to spammable high DPS abilities. CC should be something that is used tactically, not given for free in a basic DPS rotation.
As a non-NB, there is one other thing I would like for ZOS to look at. Currently, I am pretty sure both Lotus Fan and Concealed Weapon ignore dodge-roll (I know LF is an AoE and should hit during dodgeroll, but the charge portion can initiate during a dodgeroll). It is impossible to escape a nightblade who knows about these mechanics.0 -
Vorcil✭✭✭✭Stun with Veiled strike only works when coming out of stealth, using it revealed does nothing, just a pure magicka dps spell
Mass hysteria doesn't need a reduction, 1 as it can't affect a player 5 seconds after their first fear, and 2 because the magicka cost is so great that spamming it a few times will render all a nb's magicka to 0; even stamina nbs will use their full bar of magicka on it.
Ambush doesn't need any changes; if you're dying to it you're failing at ESO and need to read a few guides, only noobs spam ambush, and only fools die to it.Edited by Vorcil on January 10, 2016 11:26PM3 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stun with Veiled strike only works when coming out of stealth, using it revealed does nothing, just a pure magicka dps spell
Mass hysteria doesn't need a reduction, 1 as it can't affect a player 5 seconds after their first fear, and 2 because the magicka cost is so great that spamming it a few times will render all a nb's magicka to 0; even stamina nbs will use their full bar of magicka on it.
Ambush doesn't need any changes; if you're dying to it you're failing at ESO and need to read a few guides, only noobs spam ambush, and only fools die to it.
I am aware that stun on veiled strike only works out of stealth. Dont tell me it is really that much of a chore to use cloak before using veiled strike. This is one of the reasons it is a problem. Here is an ability that is if not the highest single target instant dps in the game, then one of the highest instant dps in the game. Add on to that the stealth bonus damage you get from coming from stealth (especially if bosmer/Khajit) and on top of that a stun. Please dont try and down play the effectivness and ease of such a combo attack that sets up and even more devastating combo. Additionally if it is seen as a "pure magicka dps spell" then it should be treated as such and lose the stun.
Yes i am also aware that fear has a cooldown, but this is true of all CC. The issue is that the ability does too much. You realize that you can essentially always keep your opposing player snared and damage debuff virtually an entire fight. Not to mention that it is an aoe CC, goes through block, and has longest CC time for CC's that do not break on damage. Again, the purpose of the damage debuff was for a NB to be able to sustain in a fight becuase they were and can be squishy. However, sustaining is no longer a problem in the game today with all of the abilities out there and the damage reduction in pvp along with the champion system. Therefore, to keep all of these perks from one ability in todays game is too much for one ability to do.
About this idea that spamming fear will drain a NB of magika. For a mag NB it would require spamming about 12 times on a decent build to run out. As you pointed out with ambush spamming one ability the whole fight is dumb and will get you killed. The only situation you would be spamming fear is in large group battles where you have been designated to do that so there is no need for other skills. Outside of that it is impracticable to spam this ability regardless because you get no extra bonus for hitting a player twice with it. It was designed to be used once maybe twice every CC cooldown. Yes if you spam it you should be out of resources.
As for a stam NB it is not hard to keep your mag resources up. Any competent player that is not running a ganking build is running with recovery drink. With only bonuse for mag recovery coming from NB passives a NB can easily get 1100-1200 mag recovery without breaking a sweat. This is more than enought o manage your resources in a fight and time your fears accordingly. Even for a ganker your setting yourself up for a quick kill so if you are not in and out then you are ganking wrong. So a ganker should only need one fear.
I am not dying to ambush spammers. They are easy to take down for the most part. The issue here is again one ability doing to many good things. It is already the most versatile gap closer in the game and can be used with an weapon tree making more build diversity. Not to mention it is not like the ability tickles. Now you add into that mix an ability that self empowers. Not to mention you never have to be seen when you use it cause you can use it jump into cloak use it again jump into cloak and no one ever sees you. SO now you can hit a player with a solid hitting ability that is now empowered plus getting the stealh bonus for attacking which is likely also stacked with major brutality without ever once being seen.
It is quite the opposite of being a noob actually. It is the experience and the skill that discovers these issues.0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.
Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.1 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.
Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.
All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.2 -
revonine✭✭✭✭The cloak changes I would be okay with if it's 100% reliable. Even with the proposed fixes awhile ago I'm finding I'm getting pulled out of cloak by non AOE attacks quote alot which forces me to spam it. If the reduced magicka regen were to happen without making it reliable your magicka would be gone very very fast.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭The cloak changes I would be okay with if it's 100% reliable. Even with the proposed fixes awhile ago I'm finding I'm getting pulled out of cloak by non AOE attacks quote alot which forces me to spam it. If the reduced magicka regen were to happen without making it reliable your magicka would be gone very very fast.
thats why I proposed only losing recovery for the time you are stealthed. So the times that it does not work or you are not in stealth for the whole duration you will not receive the recovery debuff for the time not spent in stealth.0 -
revonine✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »The cloak changes I would be okay with if it's 100% reliable. Even with the proposed fixes awhile ago I'm finding I'm getting pulled out of cloak by non AOE attacks quote alot which forces me to spam it. If the reduced magicka regen were to happen without making it reliable your magicka would be gone very very fast.
thats why I proposed only losing recovery for the time you are stealthed. So the times that it does not work or you are not in stealth for the whole duration you will not receive the recovery debuff for the time not spent in stealth.
ooops, I just re-read your topic. Learn to read on my part ^_^0 -
You cannot ambush from varying positions. Its called teleport strike and I can't jump someone who is right above me but 1m away. Kinda stupid if you ask me. My only real gripe with their skills. Leave the rest of the skills.0 -
TheBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm going to stop reading these forums. They are turning my stomach more and more.Killed by Sunshine 1vX How I see it.
Killed by Early Bright - Blood Flow - Magicka NB Build
Twitch - SunshineNB
Youtube - The Redguard4 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Honestly, I think NBs are fine. I play well with mine, and can play against them on any class really.
Ambush needs a minimum range. The root is a gap closer issue, but they can't be spammed like ambush. And people do it on purpose. A Nb in a group or with another will spam it to stop you doing anything while the other(s) do additional damage while you're defenceless.
All gap closers can be spammed if you know what your doing. Look at some of fengrush's videos where he dies. One video in particular shows one person spamming critrush for the win. The min. range will not and does not stop the spamming issue. Many players just need something fixed to point at and blame. Ambush seems like the biggest offender because there are more and more stam NB every day that use it. So the population of players using other gap closers is lowered and therefore less frequent.
My playstyle with all my toons except magica sorc is constant melee range pressure. Getting in your face. You can't spam other gap closers on me when I'm doing that. Except ambush.
I'm not looking to blame anything. I'm saying how I see it. It's an opinion. This thread has a lot of suggested nerfs for NBs. I said they are fine, except ambush. For me, people exploit the root thing by spamming ambush while right on top of me. When there's a nb and someone else on you, you're pretty much dead.
I have a vr16 magicka NB and a VR4 stam NB. I'd have no issue with a minimum range as I use the skill as intended, to close a gap. Once I'm on you, I don't use it until I need to close a gap again.0 -
davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.
In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.
Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...2 -
Araxleon✭✭✭✭✭I do feel your points were a bit bias at times but we all are bias when it comes to our main play style.
I agree with everything but (some of these I disagree with you on or view it differently)
- Lotus Fan
- Ambush
- Reapers mark / Piercing Mark
- Concealed Weapon
- Surprise Attack
- Mass Hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Shred
- Strife
- Agony
- Debilitate
- Summon Shade
- Dark Cloak
[Wall of text incoming]
Lotus Fan - I think the dot needs an increase, or more initial damage on AOE, Its used mainly because its a gap closer and snares (its other secondary effects don't matter) atm the dot also doesn't effect the target you hit either. (I think this needs a very small buff / make more viable)
Ambush - I think the empower should be removed, but it needs a secondary effect or it wouldn't be equal to lotus fan, I suggest a improved stun out of stealth or maybe a "reduce cost" on next skill used after ambush, but I do agree on it not needed empower.
Reapers Mark / Piercing Mark - Piercing Mark is pretty much useless in PVE, I think something should be added to make it a viable choice in PVE also (I dont know what, Im just pointing that out)
Reapers mark needs a buff, its horrible compared to piercing mark, (yes it can be viable and good, but compared to piercing mark its really bad for what you give up) I think the duration should be slightly increased or kept the same, (needs testing for balance) but either way they should add 40% speed boost to the buff on kill. (This makes it on par with piercing mark in terms of being a good skill)
Concealed Weapon - I think they should decrease the stun time on currently its a tad bit high, otherwise I think it having a stun is needed, otherwise we would only have fear, where other classes have atleast 2 stuns in there skill set naturally (Its a major skill in the magicka NB playstyle too)
Surprise Attack - They should remove the debuff it applies I agree with that, but once again it would need a secondary effect (most strong single target skills in game have one) maybe increased damage out of cloak/stealth? (It would need something)
Mass Hysteria - Im pretty sure the damage debuff/snare only happen if your enemy doesnt CC break, which is quite rare. (though I haven't tested it in awhile, I will test soon and update)
Manifestation of Terror - hmmm I like it, I would like if it could be a ranged trap, like fire rune.
Should Shred - Soul tether is fine, other morph is horrible, no damage and only heals allies (not even yourself!?) needs a major change.
Strife - I view this very differently then most people and I main magicka NB, this skill is way to cheap it is possible to make it cost 200, even the normal cost of 900ish is crazy Its way to cheap instant cast and heals + hits hard. This skill specifically is not balanced because of its cost alone (my current damage on it is 9k non buffed) I suggest (bare with me) increased cost but also increase the healing you receive more then it currently is, this skill should pretty much cost closer to conceal weapon. (this is just my suggestion to make up for increased cost overall, it does need a cost increase)
Agony - It needs a buff, its amazing for PVE but useless for PVP you will never stun someone for 30 secs, the will recovery stam within that timeframe no matter how bad their regen is.(I know a few tricks with it that are awesome, but it still isn't worth slotting) I suggest 2 things (the 2nd is optional) 1. make agony an AOE stun, where multiple people get effected, then it would be viable and 2. make it go through block like petrify (like I said this is optional) I think it should really be an AOE stun though. (might effect PVE balance though, may be too powerful)
Debilitate - horrible, completely change it please. (I can go into detail if people ask, but I feel its obvious)
Summon Shade - I would like the skill to have improved mechanics, show your AOE teleport range and have the skill tell you when your in/out of range of teleport or allow you to cast the skill without a target.
Dark Cloak - Its a MAJOR part of magicka NB, as much as perma cloak is hated its because of how magicka NB is built currently it should NOT be nerfed + the insane amount of counters the skill is barely reliable as times, BUT if some of the changes I suggested at the top are made, NB cloak can have increased cost per use or something along those lines because the we would have other methods of survival (healing I suggested on swallow soul + summon shade)
(forgive any spelling mistakes its midnight)
Alot of people know me for playing Magicka NB on my khajiit since beta and I know pretty much everything about it, Most of my suggestions have a purpose behind them so feel free to ask about a certain one if you want more detailed explanation.4 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭You seem to be asking for the removal of a lot (or all) of the NB stun options. Stun is essential to the idea for the class - they've give up armor and defense, so the stun counterbalances this. If my NB can't stun, and loses armor debuffs, amd etc...I'm going to equip him with heavier gear and now I've got a tanky dps build that hides a lot.
In your post you mention balance. Here's the honest truth - players have trouble with NBs because they've loaded up their bars with all their class's goodies at the expense of the very effective NB counters. It's not that NBs are over powered, it's that players of other classes have made themselves underpowered in fighting them.
Surprise attack, ambush, etc aren't as effective if pitted against a build that has put at least one attribute point in health. Good lord...Templars and DKs are running around with barely 20k in health and then wondering why they're getting killed all the time. Build that canon out of steel, son...cause glass ain't working out for you...
This is true in theory. However, practically speaking there are two many abilities to sustain yourself in battle. From NB passives to vigor to rally, to sword and board etc. In this new meta of sustained fights NB no longer need the extra stuns and debuffs and damage boosts they used to need to counter act their squishyness. NB can sustain in a fight very well with medium or light armor these days.There is no longer a squishyness to a NB outside of ganking. (but that goes to all gank builds)
I also do not think that NB are OP. I think all classes have abilities that work to well and abilities that dont work well enough. That does not make a class OP. MY suggestions above are made with that train of thought. That is, some abilities work too well and others do not work well enough. A class does not need to be OP to be unbalanced.
Additionally, 20k is the standard to run with if your not a tank. You can say that no ability is as effective against a person with 20k health as a person with 30k health because the person can take more damage. However, they are still taking the same amount of damage rendering it just as effective. The hard truth is that stacking into health if your not a tank will hurt you overall. Ya sure you can take an extra couple hits, but the damage you will put out is subpar.
A glass canon these days is essentially a person who stacks all into damage with very little sustain. For instance, using food instaed of drink and damage glyphs over recovery etc. A glass canon is these days is not about the health you have but the lack of sustain for damage. Even a ganker is running around with 20k health.
Personally, I run with 18k health but have high sustain along with great damage. It is not hard to mitigate damage done to me while being able to keep up pressure. The issue i see is that this is made too easy for this class. I can sacrifice health and armor and still feel just as tanky as a tank because of the how the class is working currently. There is no detriment to building this class at end game. You can have sustain, damage and damage mitigation without sacrificing anything.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do feel your points were a bit bias at times but we all are bias when it comes to our main play style.
I agree with everything but (some of these I disagree with you on or view it differently)
- Lotus Fan
- Ambush
- Reapers mark / Piercing Mark
- Concealed Weapon
- Surprise Attack
- Mass Hysteria
- Manifestation of Terror
- Soul Shred
- Strife
- Agony
- Debilitate
- Summon Shade
- Dark Cloak
[Wall of text incoming]
Lotus Fan - I think the dot needs an increase, or more initial damage on AOE, Its used mainly because its a gap closer and snares (its other secondary effects don't matter) atm the dot also doesn't effect the target you hit either. (I think this needs a very small buff / make more viable)
Ambush - I think the empower should be removed, but it needs a secondary effect or it wouldn't be equal to lotus fan, I suggest a improved stun out of stealth or maybe a "reduce cost" on next skill used after ambush, but I do agree on it not needed empower.
Reapers Mark / Piercing Mark - Piercing Mark is pretty much useless in PVE, I think something should be added to make it a viable choice in PVE also (I dont know what, Im just pointing that out)
Reapers mark needs a buff, its horrible compared to piercing mark, (yes it can be viable and good, but compared to piercing mark its really bad for what you give up) I think the duration should be slightly increased or kept the same, (needs testing for balance) but either way they should add 40% speed boost to the buff on kill. (This makes it on par with piercing mark in terms of being a good skill)
Concealed Weapon - I think they should decrease the stun time on currently its a tad bit high, otherwise I think it having a stun is needed, otherwise we would only have fear, where other classes have atleast 2 stuns in there skill set naturally (Its a major skill in the magicka NB playstyle too)
Surprise Attack - They should remove the debuff it applies I agree with that, but once again it would need a secondary effect (most strong single target skills in game have one) maybe increased damage out of cloak/stealth? (It would need something)
Mass Hysteria - Im pretty sure the damage debuff/snare only happen if your enemy doesnt CC break, which is quite rare. (though I haven't tested it in awhile, I will test soon and update)
Manifestation of Terror - hmmm I like it, I would like if it could be a ranged trap, like fire rune.
Should Shred - Soul tether is fine, other morph is horrible, no damage and only heals allies (not even yourself!?) needs a major change.
Strife - I view this very differently then most people and I main magicka NB, this skill is way to cheap it is possible to make it cost 200, even the normal cost of 900ish is crazy Its way to cheap instant cast and heals + hits hard. This skill specifically is not balanced because of its cost alone (my current damage on it is 9k non buffed) I suggest (bare with me) increased cost but also increase the healing you receive more then it currently is, this skill should pretty much cost closer to conceal weapon. (this is just my suggestion to make up for increased cost overall, it does need a cost increase)
Agony - It needs a buff, its amazing for PVE but useless for PVP you will never stun someone for 30 secs, the will recovery stam within that timeframe no matter how bad their regen is.(I know a few tricks with it that are awesome, but it still isn't worth slotting) I suggest 2 things (the 2nd is optional) 1. make agony an AOE stun, where multiple people get effected, then it would be viable and 2. make it go through block like petrify (like I said this is optional) I think it should really be an AOE stun though. (might effect PVE balance though, may be too powerful)
Debilitate - horrible, completely change it please. (I can go into detail if people ask, but I feel its obvious)
Summon Shade - I would like the skill to have improved mechanics, show your AOE teleport range and have the skill tell you when your in/out of range of teleport or allow you to cast the skill without a target.
Dark Cloak - Its a MAJOR part of magicka NB, as much as perma cloak is hated its because of how magicka NB is built currently it should NOT be nerfed + the insane amount of counters the skill is barely reliable as times, BUT if some of the changes I suggested at the top are made, NB cloak can have increased cost per use or something along those lines because the we would have other methods of survival (healing I suggested on swallow soul + summon shade)
(forgive any spelling mistakes its midnight)
Alot of people know me for playing Magicka NB on my khajiit since beta and I know pretty much everything about it, Most of my suggestions have a purpose behind them so feel free to ask about a certain one if you want more detailed explanation.
You make some good points and thank you for your thoughts.
Just a couple thoughts.
Getting rid of the stun from concealed would still leave nb with not only fear, but also agony and the immobolize from cripple. That said, I am not opposed to keeping the stun necessarily on this attack. The big point of contention for me is the armor debuff. However, you did compare thisto other skills having secondary effects. I hesitate to do this because I also think that other abilities that you may be refering to need to be reworked as well. My Idea is that these change will occur along with balances to other classes. I simply want to limit this dicussion to NB, but i do get your point.
I like your idea of manifestation of fear working like fire rune. However, I think the ability should be reworked then. It should not have the power to fear a whole raid from range. If you made it range you may have to look at reducing the area it effects and MAYBE the amount of people that it fears. I really like this idea of it being ranged though!
You also make a good point with strife. It is one that slipped my mind but that I agree with to a degree. I dont think there is any reason to get cute with this ability though. Keep everything the same but raise the cost by 400 or 500. This would still keep it spammable with giving a little more penalty. The damage on it is fine and the heal is pretty darn solid. I would use soul siphon over vigor as a stam build if i could.
I would like to here your thoughts on debilitate. I always used the other morph, but debilitate always looked solid. What are your thoughts?
I like your thoughts on summon shade. I believe there is a visual indication on your ability bar when your in range and out of range. I believe the ability grows dark when your out of range. That said, I would much prefer an aoe circle or some other visual que.
As for cloak, overall i dont think it should be touched. I made my suggestions for the main purpose that if it is being thought about being changed that reduced magika recovery seems the only logical way to do that. Any other nerf would likely make the ability garbage which will be a significant blow to the class.0 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mass Hysteria is to good, period.
It's an AOE stun through block with the worst in game messaging that your actually cc'd.
Your lucky if you run off in some random direction then at lest you know to cc break.
The animations and messaging for fear should be reworked to better message the status effect.
If you are leaving it as an AOE it need to be dodge able and not guaranteed to stun a group the more people around the less of chance of all three or four (I forget the cap) being afflicted.
If it goes to single target it should be undodge able.
Fear shouldn't hit through block or break stealth or cloak it any iteration.
Mass Hysteria may the best skill currently in the game and one of he biggest reasons is the messaging if ZOS would just fix the in game messaging for being feared it would be closer to balanced, IMO.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mass Hysteria is to good, period.
It's an AOE stun through block with the worst in game messaging that your actually cc'd.
Your lucky if you run off in some random direction then at lest you know to cc break.
The animations and messaging for fear should be reworked to better message the status effect.
If you are leaving it as an AOE it need to be dodge able and not guaranteed to stun a group the more people around the less of chance of all three or four (I forget the cap) being afflicted.
If it goes to single target it should be undodge able.
Fear shouldn't hit through block or break stealth or cloak it any iteration.
Mass Hysteria may the best skill currently in the game and one of he biggest reasons is the messaging if ZOS would just fix the in game messaging for being feared it would be closer to balanced, IMO.
I respectfully disagree. Yes the animation needs to be reworked. Yes the damage mitigation should go. But the point of class abilities is to have something no one else has. Besides ZOS has affirmed that they like how fear goes through block and that it has a unique place on the battlefield. But alas we must agree to disagree.0 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Mass Hysteria is to good, period.
It's an AOE stun through block with the worst in game messaging that your actually cc'd.
Your lucky if you run off in some random direction then at lest you know to cc break.
The animations and messaging for fear should be reworked to better message the status effect.
If you are leaving it as an AOE it need to be dodge able and not guaranteed to stun a group the more people around the less of chance of all three or four (I forget the cap) being afflicted.
If it goes to single target it should be undodge able.
Fear shouldn't hit through block or break stealth or cloak it any iteration.
Mass Hysteria may the best skill currently in the game and one of he biggest reasons is the messaging if ZOS would just fix the in game messaging for being feared it would be closer to balanced, IMO.
I respectfully disagree. Yes the animation needs to be reworked. Yes the damage mitigation should go. But the point of class abilities is to have something no one else has. Besides ZOS has affirmed that they like how fear goes through block and that it has a unique place on the battlefield. But alas we must agree to disagree.
The please bring back blinding flashes. Pretty please
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Mass Hysteria is to good, period.
It's an AOE stun through block with the worst in game messaging that your actually cc'd.
Your lucky if you run off in some random direction then at lest you know to cc break.
The animations and messaging for fear should be reworked to better message the status effect.
If you are leaving it as an AOE it need to be dodge able and not guaranteed to stun a group the more people around the less of chance of all three or four (I forget the cap) being afflicted.
If it goes to single target it should be undodge able.
Fear shouldn't hit through block or break stealth or cloak it any iteration.
Mass Hysteria may the best skill currently in the game and one of he biggest reasons is the messaging if ZOS would just fix the in game messaging for being feared it would be closer to balanced, IMO.
I respectfully disagree. Yes the animation needs to be reworked. Yes the damage mitigation should go. But the point of class abilities is to have something no one else has. Besides ZOS has affirmed that they like how fear goes through block and that it has a unique place on the battlefield. But alas we must agree to disagree.
The please bring back blinding flashes. Pretty please
That is an issue for another class thread.0 -
helediron✭✭✭✭✭
✭About NB tank:
- Strife cost increase would break magicka tank build. We already have to be sort of hybrids because of stamina regen nerf. Also PvE magicka DDs rely on that low price. Dropping price only happens now with direct connection to dropping damage. Poor suggestion.
- Mirage is useless for tanks. I use Double Take for the speed buff because sometimes kiting is best way of tanking, like ICP second boss flesh atronacs, hilarious tactic btw... Minor Protection would be interesting on Mirage.
- Leeching strikes is useless for tanks. Because nobody uses it and we adapted to the timed version, Leeching Strikes could be a higher pool returning version of SA but with damage debuff. The change few patches ago actually heavily nerfed pool returns. Let it be like SA, but have twice ability proc chance with the debuff and 20 sec timing.On hiatus. PC,EU,AD - crafting completionist - @helediron 900+ cp, @helestor 1000+ cp, @helestar 800+ cp, @helester 700+ cp - Dragonborn Z Suomikilta, Harrods, Master Crafter. - Blog - Crafthouse: all stations, all munduses, all dummies, open to everyone2 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭About NB tank:
- Strife cost increase would break magicka tank build. We already have to be sort of hybrids because of stamina regen nerf. Also PvE magicka DDs rely on that low price. Dropping price only happens now with direct connection to dropping damage. Poor suggestion.
- Mirage is useless for tanks. I use Double Take for the speed buff because sometimes kiting is best way of tanking, like ICP second boss flesh atronacs, hilarious tactic btw... Minor Protection would be interesting on Mirage.
- Leeching strikes is useless for tanks. Because nobody uses it and we adapted to the timed version, Leeching Strikes could be a higher pool returning version of SA but with damage debuff. The change few patches ago actually heavily nerfed pool returns. Let it be like SA, but have twice ability proc chance with the debuff and 20 sec timing.
Interesting input and i never thought about strife from a tank perspective so thank for that.0 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭About NB tank:
- Strife cost increase would break magicka tank build. We already have to be sort of hybrids because of stamina regen nerf. Also PvE magicka DDs rely on that low price. Dropping price only happens now with direct connection to dropping damage. Poor suggestion.
- Mirage is useless for tanks. I use Double Take for the speed buff because sometimes kiting is best way of tanking, like ICP second boss flesh atronacs, hilarious tactic btw... Minor Protection would be interesting on Mirage.
- Leeching strikes is useless for tanks. Because nobody uses it and we adapted to the timed version, Leeching Strikes could be a higher pool returning version of SA but with damage debuff. The change few patches ago actually heavily nerfed pool returns. Let it be like SA, but have twice ability proc chance with the debuff and 20 sec timing.
I agree. Increasing the cost of strife would totally break NB tanks in general, as I know stam nb tanks that also use itBosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP1 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry for the double postEdited by mr_wazzabi on January 12, 2016 2:43AMBosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Below are suggestions for changes to nb skills. This is not a discussion on NB skills compared to other class skills. Other classes obviously have their issues and should get a separate thread for discussion. This is also not about NB being better or worse than other classes. I believe changes suggested below along with other classes being balanced is the key to creating balance. Simply calling buff or nerf to a single class is silly. That said, even you NB haters should like at least some of the changes suggested. Last, Passives will not be discussed. I think the passives for this class are solid and should remain unchanged.
Disclaimer: My main is a stam NB. However, I do flip flop between mag and stam. That said, I am familiar with all classes and play all classes. NB is the class I identify with and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground, nor do i like having a class that gets crapped on because it is deemed OP. Either your class under performs and you cant have fun or people hate tell you and say you have no skill because the class is deemed OP. I want to see both disappear. Last, I making these suggestions in hopes that physical damage and magic damage will be balanced in the champion tree. ZOS seems to be suggesting in another thread that they will be removing the quick recovery star, so hopefully that will be replaced with a physical damage reduction star.
ASSASSINATION SKILLS:
-Death Stroke:
This ultimate and its morphs are fine as is. I would like to see one of the morphs receive physical damage. This is a melee twin blade type of move, so it would be logical to make physical damage. Much along the same line of thought that makes it alright for surprise attack to be physical damage.
-Assassin's Blade:
This skill and Impale morph are fine as is.
I would like to see killers blade become physical damage for the same reasons mentioned above.
-Teleport Strike:
This ability and Lotus Fan morph are fine as is.
Ambush should not have the Empowering buff. This skill is unique enough in the fact that it has no minimum range and can be used from varying elevations. Not to mention, it is the only stamina based gap closer available as a class skill. It is silly to add an Empowering buff. The main issue that many associate with this skill is spamming it and perma rooting. However, that is a gap closer issue not an ambush issue. I am also for getting rid of the immobolize. Although this is not the cause of the perma root that many believe I think we should add something else to this ability. Perhaps a minor healing debuff or a DOT like lotus fan.
-Blur:
Blur and the Double Take morph are fine as is.
Mirage needs to be reworked. Tanks feel free to chime in here since I dont tank, but i know for a DPS or Healer that 1k armor or spell resistance is just crap. I would like to see this buff dropped and changed. Maybe a morph that removes snares much like shuffle but it wont make you immune from snares making shuffle still unique. This way you will have a way to increase mobility or remove snares via a mag dump.
-Mark Target:
Marked Target and Piercing Mark morph are fine as is.
Reapers mark needs to have its damage increased for at least 10 seconds to make it a more viable choice. This would need some testing. Increasing the duration could result in the ability being OP with the amount of increased damage. So the damage buff may need to be tweaked because of an increase in duration. Finding the sweet spot between duration and damage is the key here. As it stand, the duration is to short to make it worth using.
-Grim Focus:
This skill and its morphs are fine as is. The balance for this ability will come when the champion tree is balanced and people spread there points more making magic damage more useful.
SHADOW SKILLS:
-Consuming Darkness:
This ability and both of the morphs are fine as is.
-Shadow Cloak:
Although I do believe this ability overall is fine as is with all of the counters to cloak, I do understand that mag NB perma cloaking is an issue. I would not be opposed to a reduction in mag recovery for the time that the skill is keeping you in stealth. This would not kill it for stam users while killing perma cloaking. It will also only debuff recovery while in stealth which overcomes the problem of having to spam the ability two or three times to get it to work. Many people say that it should receive an set cost increase on each use but the fact is that this ability is not 100% every time making a player having to hit the ability 2 or 3 times for it to work. A cost increase on each use would kill all builds not just stam.
Shadowy Disguise needs to be reworked. This skill is useless. Perhaps the empowering buff can be added to this ability. Maybe a HOT. Maybe increased mobility or remove snares. Maybe increased duration. Maybe reduces aoe damage. Something else besides crit.
Dark cloak is fine as is.
-Veiled Strike:
I think this ability should lose the stun. The fact that this is an instant cast high DPS attack that no other class can use is enough. The stun is too much. This applies to all morphs.
Concealed Weapon is fine as long as you lose the stun.
Surprise attack needs to lose the armor debuff. This ability is unique enough in that it is the only stam based instant cast DPS and the strongest hitting one just on base damage. It is silly to add an armor debuff to increase DPS even more. Not to mention, the debuff can be utilized through reapers mark if the player so chooses. Keep the base damage but lose the stun and the debuff.
-Path of Darkness:
This ability needs to have its DOT increased.
Twisting path needs to have its DOT increased.
Refreshing path needs to have its healing increased.
(These increases do not have to be a large amount but at least a small increase is needed.)
-Aspect of Terror:
This ability is fine as is. However, the animation needs to be fixed. This goes for all of the morphs.
Manifestation of Terror is fine as is. I think this is a very underrated NB ability especially for groups. Dropping this ability on a flag or breach as a raid is pushing through and fearing all of them is awesome especially when timed with a counter attack.
Mass Hysteria the very controversial one. This skill should 100% go through block and be an aoe. Not only is this a unique feature for a NB to have, but it adds an extra dynamic to the game. That said, that is why the ability needs to go down to a 2-3 second duration. (start with 3 and test out 2 and see how the ability is affected.) Also, the ability needs to lose the damage debuff. Back when the ability was made stamina did not have vigor and rally to rely on. The damage reduction for stam builds was key for survival. As the game currently stands, vigor and rally keep stam builds up with sipohing abilites and resto keeping mag builds up. The damage reduction is no longer a necessity for survival. The snare should stay. The morph has to be differentiated some how from the base skill. Maybe reduce the snare to 30-40% but no less.
-Summon Shade:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
SIPHONING SKILLS:
-Soul Shred:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Strife:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Agony:
This is the only ability I can not really speak on. I have no use for it with any build I run. IMO it should be scrapped and replaced with something new. However, I know players that like this ability and enjoy using it, so perhaps it is worth keeping. I say ZOS should let the numbers decide like they did with haste.
-Cripple:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. Maybe the Debilitate morph could be reworked but it is not bad.
-Siphoning Strikes:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. However, as i mentioned before, I do not play a NB tank and so would like to hear some input on the leeching strikes morph. I do not use it as a DPS or Healer, but I imagine it is servicable for a tank. Perhaps providing more heals or make it also have a 10% chance of restoring health when using an ability, but keep stam and mag recovery on basic attacks. (also, health on basic attacks.) However, keep it a toggle so that there is some detriment to using it. That seems reasonable to me.
Some think that siphoning attacks should have an increased duration. I disagree with this. 15 seconds is the sweet spot to keep it from being OP. If the duration is increased, then the recovery would have to be decreased.
-Drain Power:
This ability and the sap essence morph are fine as is.
Power Extraction needs to be reworked. The damage is lower then the other stamina based aoe available in the weapon skills such as Bombard and Steel Tornado. Ofcourse that may be because it is magic damage so this can be addressed by balancing the champ tree or by making it physical damage. It may be ahrd to justify making this physical damage. The damage on this ability should be revisited after the balance incoming. However, this ability should lose the major brutality buff. It makes since for Sap Essence to get Major Sorcery buff because the only other place to get that for a mag build is the Mages Guild Tree. However, there are plenty of places to get Major Brutality from for a stam build such as Rally and Hidden Blade. This buff is useless for a stam build. I say drop the Major Brutality buff and add empowering to this ability. If not Empowering than another buff of some sort or a DOT.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments?
Remember this is not a debate on NB have this or not this compared to other classes. You want to talk about other classes then make a thread to balance the other classes. I feel my feedback has provided a balance adjustment to NB that both sides will like. Please limit discussion to NB skills. (even passives).
I disagree with all your nerfs and approach. Why not just leave it as is and buff other classes? They could just rollback some of the nerfs they've done and see how the classes work together. I also am not sure you're actually a nightblade player, but a magicka Sorc posing as a NB so you can get NB nerfed into uselessness.
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davey1107✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no detriment to building this class at end game. You can have sustain, damage and damage mitigation without sacrificing anything.
I have three of the classes as characters - there are pros and cons to each, and I disagree with your blanket "no detriment" assertion. Nightblades trade armor rating for sneak radius and stealth, as one obvious rebuttal to your point.
Furthermore, your post centers around the same gripe I see in post after post after post - "it's not fair facing off against a nightblade with vigor, wrecking blow, rally, etc." But you know what? Those are all skills open to all classes. Anyone can run rally, and they do. So why the heck does rally and vigor translate to nerfing NB class skills? That makes no sense. If rally is too strong, nerf rally and have all classes pay the price.
Part of the appeal of ESO is the ability to expand play styles within a class. The fact that NBs can get tanky or mega-dps or sneak assassins isn't a weakness of the class - it's a strength of the game. If someone wants to build and run a nightblade healer, may God bless (and have mercy on their soul). I do not understand the obsession with uniformity and conformity in these forums - the fact that I can build ten different NBs with respecs is really cool.
You are correct about one thing - an ability like vigor has brought many Nightblades out of the shadows to fight more aggressively. That's how war is, my friend. The issue I see in the game isn't that Nightblades are doing this, it's that other players fail to adapt. Yes, I can stun and bring down a Templar now, and be assured my vigor will keep me alive if the fight drags on. Rather than lose my stuns, maybe the Templars should stop stupidly getting onto their horses and sitting out in the open. Cyrodiil is a dangerous place.2 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Below are suggestions for changes to nb skills. This is not a discussion on NB skills compared to other class skills. Other classes obviously have their issues and should get a separate thread for discussion. This is also not about NB being better or worse than other classes. I believe changes suggested below along with other classes being balanced is the key to creating balance. Simply calling buff or nerf to a single class is silly. That said, even you NB haters should like at least some of the changes suggested. Last, Passives will not be discussed. I think the passives for this class are solid and should remain unchanged.
Disclaimer: My main is a stam NB. However, I do flip flop between mag and stam. That said, I am familiar with all classes and play all classes. NB is the class I identify with and do not want to see it nerfed into the ground, nor do i like having a class that gets crapped on because it is deemed OP. Either your class under performs and you cant have fun or people hate tell you and say you have no skill because the class is deemed OP. I want to see both disappear. Last, I making these suggestions in hopes that physical damage and magic damage will be balanced in the champion tree. ZOS seems to be suggesting in another thread that they will be removing the quick recovery star, so hopefully that will be replaced with a physical damage reduction star.
ASSASSINATION SKILLS:
-Death Stroke:
This ultimate and its morphs are fine as is. I would like to see one of the morphs receive physical damage. This is a melee twin blade type of move, so it would be logical to make physical damage. Much along the same line of thought that makes it alright for surprise attack to be physical damage.
-Assassin's Blade:
This skill and Impale morph are fine as is.
I would like to see killers blade become physical damage for the same reasons mentioned above.
-Teleport Strike:
This ability and Lotus Fan morph are fine as is.
Ambush should not have the Empowering buff. This skill is unique enough in the fact that it has no minimum range and can be used from varying elevations. Not to mention, it is the only stamina based gap closer available as a class skill. It is silly to add an Empowering buff. The main issue that many associate with this skill is spamming it and perma rooting. However, that is a gap closer issue not an ambush issue. I am also for getting rid of the immobolize. Although this is not the cause of the perma root that many believe I think we should add something else to this ability. Perhaps a minor healing debuff or a DOT like lotus fan.
-Blur:
Blur and the Double Take morph are fine as is.
Mirage needs to be reworked. Tanks feel free to chime in here since I dont tank, but i know for a DPS or Healer that 1k armor or spell resistance is just crap. I would like to see this buff dropped and changed. Maybe a morph that removes snares much like shuffle but it wont make you immune from snares making shuffle still unique. This way you will have a way to increase mobility or remove snares via a mag dump.
-Mark Target:
Marked Target and Piercing Mark morph are fine as is.
Reapers mark needs to have its damage increased for at least 10 seconds to make it a more viable choice. This would need some testing. Increasing the duration could result in the ability being OP with the amount of increased damage. So the damage buff may need to be tweaked because of an increase in duration. Finding the sweet spot between duration and damage is the key here. As it stand, the duration is to short to make it worth using.
-Grim Focus:
This skill and its morphs are fine as is. The balance for this ability will come when the champion tree is balanced and people spread there points more making magic damage more useful.
SHADOW SKILLS:
-Consuming Darkness:
This ability and both of the morphs are fine as is.
-Shadow Cloak:
Although I do believe this ability overall is fine as is with all of the counters to cloak, I do understand that mag NB perma cloaking is an issue. I would not be opposed to a reduction in mag recovery for the time that the skill is keeping you in stealth. This would not kill it for stam users while killing perma cloaking. It will also only debuff recovery while in stealth which overcomes the problem of having to spam the ability two or three times to get it to work. Many people say that it should receive an set cost increase on each use but the fact is that this ability is not 100% every time making a player having to hit the ability 2 or 3 times for it to work. A cost increase on each use would kill all builds not just stam.
Shadowy Disguise needs to be reworked. This skill is useless. Perhaps the empowering buff can be added to this ability. Maybe a HOT. Maybe increased mobility or remove snares. Maybe increased duration. Maybe reduces aoe damage. Something else besides crit.
Dark cloak is fine as is.
-Veiled Strike:
I think this ability should lose the stun. The fact that this is an instant cast high DPS attack that no other class can use is enough. The stun is too much. This applies to all morphs.
Concealed Weapon is fine as long as you lose the stun.
Surprise attack needs to lose the armor debuff. This ability is unique enough in that it is the only stam based instant cast DPS and the strongest hitting one just on base damage. It is silly to add an armor debuff to increase DPS even more. Not to mention, the debuff can be utilized through reapers mark if the player so chooses. Keep the base damage but lose the stun and the debuff.
-Path of Darkness:
This ability needs to have its DOT increased.
Twisting path needs to have its DOT increased.
Refreshing path needs to have its healing increased.
(These increases do not have to be a large amount but at least a small increase is needed.)
-Aspect of Terror:
This ability is fine as is. However, the animation needs to be fixed. This goes for all of the morphs.
Manifestation of Terror is fine as is. I think this is a very underrated NB ability especially for groups. Dropping this ability on a flag or breach as a raid is pushing through and fearing all of them is awesome especially when timed with a counter attack.
Mass Hysteria the very controversial one. This skill should 100% go through block and be an aoe. Not only is this a unique feature for a NB to have, but it adds an extra dynamic to the game. That said, that is why the ability needs to go down to a 2-3 second duration. (start with 3 and test out 2 and see how the ability is affected.) Also, the ability needs to lose the damage debuff. Back when the ability was made stamina did not have vigor and rally to rely on. The damage reduction for stam builds was key for survival. As the game currently stands, vigor and rally keep stam builds up with sipohing abilites and resto keeping mag builds up. The damage reduction is no longer a necessity for survival. The snare should stay. The morph has to be differentiated some how from the base skill. Maybe reduce the snare to 30-40% but no less.
-Summon Shade:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
SIPHONING SKILLS:
-Soul Shred:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Strife:
This ability and morphs are fine as is.
-Agony:
This is the only ability I can not really speak on. I have no use for it with any build I run. IMO it should be scrapped and replaced with something new. However, I know players that like this ability and enjoy using it, so perhaps it is worth keeping. I say ZOS should let the numbers decide like they did with haste.
-Cripple:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. Maybe the Debilitate morph could be reworked but it is not bad.
-Siphoning Strikes:
I think this ability and its morphs are fine as is. However, as i mentioned before, I do not play a NB tank and so would like to hear some input on the leeching strikes morph. I do not use it as a DPS or Healer, but I imagine it is servicable for a tank. Perhaps providing more heals or make it also have a 10% chance of restoring health when using an ability, but keep stam and mag recovery on basic attacks. (also, health on basic attacks.) However, keep it a toggle so that there is some detriment to using it. That seems reasonable to me.
Some think that siphoning attacks should have an increased duration. I disagree with this. 15 seconds is the sweet spot to keep it from being OP. If the duration is increased, then the recovery would have to be decreased.
-Drain Power:
This ability and the sap essence morph are fine as is.
Power Extraction needs to be reworked. The damage is lower then the other stamina based aoe available in the weapon skills such as Bombard and Steel Tornado. Ofcourse that may be because it is magic damage so this can be addressed by balancing the champ tree or by making it physical damage. It may be ahrd to justify making this physical damage. The damage on this ability should be revisited after the balance incoming. However, this ability should lose the major brutality buff. It makes since for Sap Essence to get Major Sorcery buff because the only other place to get that for a mag build is the Mages Guild Tree. However, there are plenty of places to get Major Brutality from for a stam build such as Rally and Hidden Blade. This buff is useless for a stam build. I say drop the Major Brutality buff and add empowering to this ability. If not Empowering than another buff of some sort or a DOT.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments?
Remember this is not a debate on NB have this or not this compared to other classes. You want to talk about other classes then make a thread to balance the other classes. I feel my feedback has provided a balance adjustment to NB that both sides will like. Please limit discussion to NB skills. (even passives).
I disagree with all your nerfs and approach. Why not just leave it as is and buff other classes? They could just rollback some of the nerfs they've done and see how the classes work together. I also am not sure you're actually a nightblade player, but a magicka Sorc posing as a NB so you can get NB nerfed into uselessness.
This is not about comparing to other classes but trying to look at skills within an individual class to be be balanced. This is not about well if that class has this then I should get this type of deal. I'm some abilities in the nb class do too much.
Also, I have played a nb since beta. You would be very hard pressed to find a player in this game with more play time on a nb then myself. This includes the popular streamers like syper and king richard. Believe me or not isc, but if you knew me in game then you would know.
What to you disagree with and why?1 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no detriment to building this class at end game. You can have sustain, damage and damage mitigation without sacrificing anything.
I have three of the classes as characters - there are pros and cons to each, and I disagree with your blanket "no detriment" assertion. Nightblades trade armor rating for sneak radius and stealth, as one obvious rebuttal to your point.
Furthermore, your post centers around the same gripe I see in post after post after post - "it's not fair facing off against a nightblade with vigor, wrecking blow, rally, etc." But you know what? Those are all skills open to all classes. Anyone can run rally, and they do. So why the heck does rally and vigor translate to nerfing NB class skills? That makes no sense. If rally is too strong, nerf rally and have all classes pay the price.
Part of the appeal of ESO is the ability to expand play styles within a class. The fact that NBs can get tanky or mega-dps or sneak assassins isn't a weakness of the class - it's a strength of the game. If someone wants to build and run a nightblade healer, may God bless (and have mercy on their soul). I do not understand the obsession with uniformity and conformity in these forums - the fact that I can build ten different NBs with respecs is really cool.
You are correct about one thing - an ability like vigor has brought many Nightblades out of the shadows to fight more aggressively. That's how war is, my friend. The issue I see in the game isn't that Nightblades are doing this, it's that other players fail to adapt. Yes, I can stun and bring down a Templar now, and be assured my vigor will keep me alive if the fight drags on. Rather than lose my stuns, maybe the Templars should stop stupidly getting onto their horses and sitting out in the open. Cyrodiil is a dangerous place.
Idk what gripe your talking about. I have made a post with suggestions and made my points as objective as possible as evidenced by the logic I used to explain my suggestions. Agree with them or not that is your choice.
You seem to be misunderstanding me. Yes Ofcourse a player should be able to do as they want and play as they want with any class. Tank, healer, DPS. My point is that right now a nb DPS can still have high resistance, high damage, and high sustain all at the same time with relative ease and barely a single draw back. You say they lose armor rating for stealth and what not. However, you don't really lose out on armor because the nb passive constantly keeps the armor and resistance buff up at almost all times which covers the loss of armor for using medium.0
