Should Magic-users do more damage with Staves than when Dual-Wielding?

Joy_Division · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

beerninja wrote: »

@Wrobel In this ESO Live right at this moment: https://youtu.be/ag9LVGjVzMA?t=1h2m17s you explained that dual wielding was a tradeoff for more spell damage at the loss of being able to regain magicka via heavy attacks, which makes sense, however in eso the weapon swapping mechanic exists in the game which completely negates that argument. Therefore as a spell caster for the damage dealing bar the only choice is currently dual wield for maximum damage.

This does not seem to make sense to anyone. The spell damage with dual wield should be identical to destruction staff and the only benefit of using dual wield would be for a possibility of having 1 extra item set perk at the expense of no medium or light weaves (unless you get in melee range).

Keep in mind you asking the same person who think Wall of Elements "melts" people to give you an answer regarding game mechanics.

beerninja · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Keep in mind you asking the same person who think Wall of Elements "melts" people to give you an answer regarding game mechanics.

lol do you have the video link so I can watch that? I feel like laughing today

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

tennant94 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

I play sorc and would love to do more damage with my staff but it would be op so no, they shouldn't do more damage. The only thing that needs buffing, maybe, are the destroy skills as a lot of them are weak.

And how exactly would Staves adding more to Spell Damage than Dual-Wielding (where all of the Skills are Stamina-based) be over-powered? Would you care to elaborate?

Dual wielding with sorc has no spammable abilitys, so you rely on slow heavy damage. With a staff equipped you have spammable abilitys, this coupled with more frequent frag procs would make it op, in my opinion.

LOL

I'm hilarious, i know.

ADarklore wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Dual wielding with sorc has no spammable abilitys, so you rely on slow heavy damage. With a staff equipped you have spammable abilitys, this coupled with more frequent frag procs would make it op, in my opinion.

Um, right now DW with Magicka Sorcs is already OP, that is the point. That people are getting more damage using DW than using a staff, which doesn't make any sense. They are basically handed extra damage for just carrying around two weapons without even having to use them... and not just extra spell damage, but also extra crafted set bonus... it doesn't make any logical sense. Magicka players should receive a bonus for actually using a MAGICKA-based weapon, not penalized for it.

The damage increase for dual wield does make sense if your looking at game balance because you can't weave in light attacks while duel wielding and dw sorcs aren't op, maybe in 1v1s but in open world destro performs better.

What about the fact that DW basic attacks and all but 1 skill can't be reflected while all attacks but one from staves can be reflected by any class, DW skill damage and utility are great compared to destruction staff skills DW gets an extra set bonus, not to mention staff users have no way to restore stamina an essential attribute. it seems like DW has less tradeoffs than staffs which lose so much in addition to spell power.

Erondil · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Destro staves should be buffed, ATM all the skills are pretty lame and passives underwhelming. That being said, it's a good thing that dual wield gives me more raw damage. Gives more options for builds and play styles and there is a very real trade off. That increased damage comes at the cost of being able to heavy weave weapon attacks with other skills. Sorcerer in particular is most affected by this, because they dont have awesome class skills that can be spammed whilst having dual wield equipped such as whip, sweeps, or swallow soul/concealed weapon. As such, the best Sorcerer builds use staves in PvP anyways. In PvE destro staff is a must with dual wield only being used for executes and overload.

So for these reasons, I think the system is fine as is. Dual wield being relevant to magicka builds gives the game variety and and allows for different builds to be viable. I don't wanna see magicka builds all using only one weapon, that would be lame. But once again, I firmly support destro staffs being buffed in a meaningful way.

Perfectly sums it up. Destro skills and passives should be more interesting but the bonus spell damage with dw should remain, for game variety.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · January 2016

Main issue is not that dw gives higher damage, but that you can stay at range when using it. Normally you have a risk/reward trade-off, but the risk is not higher if you can stay at range anyway, like a sorc can.

Another idea to make staves more appealing would be to make them count double for a set bonus. This way you can decide between skills (that are more or less useful for a magicka based build... destro still needs a rework!) or a bit more damage, and not between having more set bonuses or not as well.

olsborg · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

I dont think they should do MORE dmg then dw/2h, but it shouldnt do less!

aLi3nZ · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Yep it's pretty messed up I have a duel weild bar just so I can get some decent spell power going on.

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Joy_Division wrote: »

beerninja wrote: »

@Wrobel In this ESO Live right at this moment: https://youtu.be/ag9LVGjVzMA?t=1h2m17s you explained that dual wielding was a tradeoff for more spell damage at the loss of being able to regain magicka via heavy attacks, which makes sense, however in eso the weapon swapping mechanic exists in the game which completely negates that argument. Therefore as a spell caster for the damage dealing bar the only choice is currently dual wield for maximum damage.

This does not seem to make sense to anyone. The spell damage with dual wield should be identical to destruction staff and the only benefit of using dual wield would be for a possibility of having 1 extra item set perk at the expense of no medium or light weaves (unless you get in melee range).

Keep in mind you asking the same person who think Wall of Elements "melts" people to give you an answer regarding game mechanics.

Let's also keep in mind that Destruction Staff was also nerfed a short time ago when he reduced the elemental effect proc rate, making it even worse compared to using DW.

Plus, @Wrobel 's argument about DW not regenning Magicka via heavy attacks doesn't take into consideration the EXTRA crafted set bonus DW receives. So it isn't like DW receives a singular advantage, but it gets more than TWICE the advantage over using a staff, and THREE TIMES if you include the fact that DW Swords receives another damage increase. THAT is the problem I have with it, that DW already receives an advantage with being able to utilize an extra set bonus, but then adding a large amount of Spell Damage on top of that, and damage is even further increased if you use DW Swords!

Hopefully he will take a closer look at this and see that this really is not a comparison of "apples to apples" simply because of Destruction Staff being able to regenerate Magicka with heavy attacks, especially considering most players use light/medium attack weaves NOT heavy attacks.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Erondil wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Destro staves should be buffed, ATM all the skills are pretty lame and passives underwhelming. That being said, it's a good thing that dual wield gives me more raw damage. Gives more options for builds and play styles and there is a very real trade off. That increased damage comes at the cost of being able to heavy weave weapon attacks with other skills. Sorcerer in particular is most affected by this, because they dont have awesome class skills that can be spammed whilst having dual wield equipped such as whip, sweeps, or swallow soul/concealed weapon. As such, the best Sorcerer builds use staves in PvP anyways. In PvE destro staff is a must with dual wield only being used for executes and overload.

So for these reasons, I think the system is fine as is. Dual wield being relevant to magicka builds gives the game variety and and allows for different builds to be viable. I don't wanna see magicka builds all using only one weapon, that would be lame. But once again, I firmly support destro staffs being buffed in a meaningful way.

Perfectly sums it up. Destro skills and passives should be more interesting but the bonus spell damage with dw should remain, for game variety.

Variety? okay then tell me how many people do you see who don't dual wield who are actually "good" endgame players compared to those who do.

ThePMSBeast · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Telel wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

all the way back to dungeons & dragons

the spell casters were Always the most powerful.

A khajiit doing their J.R.R Tolkien impersonation called.

He wanted to remind you Gandalf used a sword more than he used magic missile.

However , if you remember..Gandalf and the other wizards were bound to their magics with their staffs, without them they were powerless, hance why Gandalf got owned by Saruman when his staff was taken, or when it was fried by Sauron.

The magic is in the staff baby!! For magic wielders such as healers and Sorcs, yes, the staff should trump all.

tennant94 · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

I play sorc and would love to do more damage with my staff but it would be op so no, they shouldn't do more damage. The only thing that needs buffing, maybe, are the destroy skills as a lot of them are weak.

And how exactly would Staves adding more to Spell Damage than Dual-Wielding (where all of the Skills are Stamina-based) be over-powered? Would you care to elaborate?

Dual wielding with sorc has no spammable abilitys, so you rely on slow heavy damage. With a staff equipped you have spammable abilitys, this coupled with more frequent frag procs would make it op, in my opinion.

LOL

I'm hilarious, i know.

ADarklore wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Dual wielding with sorc has no spammable abilitys, so you rely on slow heavy damage. With a staff equipped you have spammable abilitys, this coupled with more frequent frag procs would make it op, in my opinion.

Um, right now DW with Magicka Sorcs is already OP, that is the point. That people are getting more damage using DW than using a staff, which doesn't make any sense. They are basically handed extra damage for just carrying around two weapons without even having to use them... and not just extra spell damage, but also extra crafted set bonus... it doesn't make any logical sense. Magicka players should receive a bonus for actually using a MAGICKA-based weapon, not penalized for it.

The damage increase for dual wield does make sense if your looking at game balance because you can't weave in light attacks while duel wielding and dw sorcs aren't op, maybe in 1v1s but in open world destro performs better.

What about the fact that DW basic attacks and all but 1 skill can't be reflected while all attacks but one from staves can be reflected by any class, DW skill damage and utility are great compared to destruction staff skills DW gets an extra set bonus, not to mention staff users have no way to restore stamina an essential attribute. it seems like DW has less tradeoffs than staffs which lose so much in addition to spell power.

Yeah attacks can be reflected but not everybody is using reflective scales or defensive stance. You get zero utility from using dual wield over a destroy staff btw and yeah heavy attacks restore stamina but nobody who runs magicka dual wield cares about that or even implements heavy attacks into there game, its a waste of dps and a simple potion can be enough to maintain stamina as a magicka user. Other than the spell damage what do destroy staffs lose out on?

srfrogg23 · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

Meh, it's kind of about build variety in my eyes. I'm pretty sure you regain the resource tied to your weapon from heavy attacks.

A sorcerer using DW might hit marginally harder, but DW heavy attacks won't give magicka back in those prolonged boss fights, so if they burn through their magicka their DPS will drop back down for a bit. Seems to me like some balance has been achieved.

...wait... Did I accidentally walk into a PVP problems thread? *backs out slowly*

wrathofrraath · January 2016

It'd be cool if staves were two pieces, 1 pc for the wood 1 pc for the sigil atop the staff. Rare unigue 1pc staff sigils would be pretty sweet

ThePMSBeast · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

wrathofrraath wrote: »

It'd be cool if staves were two pieces, 1 pc for the wood 1 pc for the sigil atop the staff. Rare unigue 1pc staff sigils would be pretty sweet

This!

ADarklore · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Meh, it's kind of about build variety in my eyes. I'm pretty sure you regain the resource tied to your weapon from heavy attacks.

A sorcerer using DW might hit marginally harder, but DW heavy attacks won't give magicka back in those prolonged boss fights, so if they burn through their magicka their DPS will drop back down for a bit. Seems to me like some balance has been achieved.

...wait... Did I accidentally walk into a PVP problems thread? *backs out slowly*

But you seem to forget, as I mentioned above... DW gains a bonus NOT JUST from dual wielding, but also from bonus crafted set AND damage bonus from equipping two swords, not just using them. So that's THREE WAYS DW has an advantage over staff... and like I also said, VERY FEW players use heavy attacks, they us light/medium weaving... so the 'magicka regen' advantage is all theory, and little reality.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

ThePMSBeast wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

all the way back to dungeons & dragons

the spell casters were Always the most powerful.

A khajiit doing their J.R.R Tolkien impersonation called.

He wanted to remind you Gandalf used a sword more than he used magic missile.

However , if you remember..Gandalf and the other wizards were bound to their magics with their staffs, without them they were powerless, hance why Gandalf got owned by Saruman when his staff was taken, or when it was fried by Sauron.

The magic is in the staff baby!! For magic wielders such as healers and Sorcs, yes, the staff should trump all.

Oh come on have you ever heard of a spoiler tag!?

srfrogg23 · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

ADarklore wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Meh, it's kind of about build variety in my eyes. I'm pretty sure you regain the resource tied to your weapon from heavy attacks.

A sorcerer using DW might hit marginally harder, but DW heavy attacks won't give magicka back in those prolonged boss fights, so if they burn through their magicka their DPS will drop back down for a bit. Seems to me like some balance has been achieved.

...wait... Did I accidentally walk into a PVP problems thread? *backs out slowly*

But you seem to forget, as I mentioned above... DW gains a bonus NOT JUST from dual wielding, but also from bonus crafted set AND damage bonus from equipping two swords, not just using them. So that's THREE WAYS DW has an advantage over staff... and like I also said, VERY FEW players use heavy attacks, they us light/medium weaving... so the 'magicka regen' advantage is all theory, and little reality.

If you prefer staves because of how they look or better fit the theme of your character then why not use them? Is a couple of percentage points of dps really going to make that much of a difference?

I think once you get to that degree of detail it really starts to become more about utility and aesthetics.

YeOldeGamer · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Absolutely.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Meh, it's kind of about build variety in my eyes. I'm pretty sure you regain the resource tied to your weapon from heavy attacks.

A sorcerer using DW might hit marginally harder, but DW heavy attacks won't give magicka back in those prolonged boss fights, so if they burn through their magicka their DPS will drop back down for a bit. Seems to me like some balance has been achieved.

...wait... Did I accidentally walk into a PVP problems thread? *backs out slowly*

But you seem to forget, as I mentioned above... DW gains a bonus NOT JUST from dual wielding, but also from bonus crafted set AND damage bonus from equipping two swords, not just using them. So that's THREE WAYS DW has an advantage over staff... and like I also said, VERY FEW players use heavy attacks, they us light/medium weaving... so the 'magicka regen' advantage is all theory, and little reality.

If you prefer staves because of how they look or better fit the theme of your character then why not use them? Is a couple of percentage points of dps really going to make that much of a difference?

I think once you get to that degree of detail it really starts to become more about utility and aesthetics.

But that's the heart of the issue. It's not "just a couple of percentage points".

Dual Wielding two swords almost doubles the amount of Spell damage a Magick User puts out when compared to using a Staff. Then factor in the extra Set-piece bonus and bevy of attacks that cannot be reflected/dodged... it's a pretty lopsided situation, and one that absolutely should not exist.

I stand by my original point: Dual Wielding two Stamina-based Swords should never add more to Spell Damage for a Magicka user than wielding a Magicka-based Staff.

OmniDevil · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But that's the heart of the issue. It's not "just a couple of percentage points".

Dual Wielding two swords almost doubles the amount of Spell damage a Magick User puts out when compared to using a Staff. Then factor in the extra Set-piece bonus and bevy of attacks that cannot be reflected/dodged... it's a pretty lopsided situation, and one that absolutely should not exist.

I stand by my original point: Dual Wielding two Stamina-based Swords should never add more to Spell Damage for a Magicka user than wielding a Magicka-based Staff.

There's no arguing this. I really hope they do something to buff staves to make them an equal choice to increase spell damage.

josh.lackey_ESO · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

There are two issues here.

0) You should say "Mages" or something, not "Sorcerers". Any of the classes should be able to pick up a staff and play a mage type of character. That's at the heart of Elder Scrolls gameplay.

1) A staff only counts as one piece in a set. It should count for two, as should the other two hand weapons. If you look at every crafted set with spell damage, it's the 4th trait. That specifically excludes it from staves, and limits that bonus to duel wield or sword and board.

2) The real problem is in the PASSIVES. Why do dual wield passives affect ALL damage, including spells, but destruction staff passives don't even improve just spells -- they only improve destruction staff spells which are already pretty awful. So no benefit to your class abilities, or even mage guild spells -- which is pretty hilarious.

Staves, especially destruction staves, need major buffs to put them on par with stamina weapons. ZOS has been seriously screwing over the spell casters lately in favor of stamina builds. What gives?

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

There are two issues here.

0) You should say "Mages" or something, not "Sorcerers". Any of the classes should be able to pick up a staff and play a mage type of character. That's at the heart of Elder Scrolls gameplay.

1) A staff only counts as one piece in a set. It should count for two, as should the other two hand weapons. If you look at every crafted set with spell damage, it's the 4th trait. That specifically excludes it from staves, and limits that bonus to duel wield or sword and board.

2) The real problem is in the PASSIVES. Why do dual wield passives affect ALL damage, including spells, but destruction staff passives don't even improve just spells -- they only improve destruction staff spells which are already pretty awful. So no benefit to your class abilities, or even mage guild spells -- which is pretty hilarious.

Staves, especially destruction staves, need major buffs to put them on par with stamina weapons. ZOS has been seriously screwing over the spell casters lately in favor of stamina builds. What gives?

I agree with you for all Magick-users. i had already edited the title, so I edited the description this time to match the desired intent of my OP.

It won't let me edit the poll though, so we're kind of stuck with that.

Great observations though.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

As far as the screwing of Staff users; it's widely known that the Devs favor CQC Sword-users (specifically Nightblades. They've even said Nightblades were their favorite class in several of their Webcasts...), so it's no mystery why the Staff users are getting a stiff one on this issue.

It still needs to be fixed, badly, but it's no mystery why Staff users are getting worked over.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

There are two issues here.

0) You should say "Mages" or something, not "Sorcerers". Any of the classes should be able to pick up a staff and play a mage type of character. That's at the heart of Elder Scrolls gameplay.

1) A staff only counts as one piece in a set. It should count for two, as should the other two hand weapons. If you look at every crafted set with spell damage, it's the 4th trait. That specifically excludes it from staves, and limits that bonus to duel wield or sword and board.

2) The real problem is in the PASSIVES. Why do dual wield passives affect ALL damage, including spells, but destruction staff passives don't even improve just spells -- they only improve destruction staff spells which are already pretty awful. So no benefit to your class abilities, or even mage guild spells -- which is pretty hilarious.

Staves, especially destruction staves, need major buffs to put them on par with stamina weapons. ZOS has been seriously screwing over the spell casters lately in favor of stamina builds. What gives?

I agree with you for all Magick-users. i had already edited the title, so I edited the description this time to match the desired intent of my OP.

It won't let me edit the poll though, so we're kind of stuck with that.

Great observations though.

Perhaps you can tag a moderator like ZOS_Brett and ask them if they can change the poll choices to say magic users instead of sorcerers I am sure they can.

Laranoye · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

If we could get double set points on a staff then yes

Otherwise it is not fair one particular build can get bonus from sets over another..

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 · January 2016

N/A, I don't care either way.

In my view, it evens out because the Destruction staff gives you access to several abilities that deal solid damage while dual wielding means essentially, you have more spell damage but you don't have a weapon.

Plus, bonus! You look like a jaggoff running around with two swords, casting crystal frags over and over :P

bryanhaas · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Since staffs are 2 handed they should also count for 2 items in a set.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Laranoye wrote: »

If we could get double set points on a staff then yes Otherwise it is not fair one particular build can get bonus from sets over another..

And that's exactly the reason it's unfair now.

A Magick-user Dual Wielding gets a huge bonus from Sets that no other build gets.

Then you take into account:

1) A whole host of Dual Wielding Skills (all but one if memory serves) that cannot be reflected or dodged.
2) An Extra Set piece to add to their build.
3) A bonus to Spell Damage (from Stamina-based Swords mind you) that nigh doubles the pathetic bonus to Spell Damage that Staves provide.
4) Attack weaving that makes using a Staff laughable.
5) I'm sure there's something else that I'm forgetting...

So, using your own logic, it's quite easy to see that a Dual-Wielding Magicka build gets some very significant bonuses that no other Magicka build gets to benefit from. Those bonuses from equipping two Stamina-based weapons, that then (by some twisted logic) ramp up Spell damage far beyond what a Staff can provide, proves that Dual Wielding Magicka builds should not (in any way) work in the manner that they currently are.

The whole "range" argument is a paper tiger that has been soundly defeated as the weak cop-out that it is.

This is an issue that needs to be fixed ASAP. No Dual Wielding Magicka user should ever be able to out class a Staff wielding Magicka user whose very weapon falls in line with Magicka use.

josh.lackey_ESO · January 2016

Yes, Sorcerers using Staves should do the most damage with their Spells.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

In my view, it evens out because the Destruction staff gives you access to several abilities that deal solid damage while dual wielding means essentially, you have more spell damage but you don't have a weapon.

Plus, bonus! You look like a jaggoff running around with two swords, casting crystal frags over and over :P

You have a point about being able to use the Destruction skill line. However if you duel wield, you similarly gain access to that skill line, which has a few abilities that are at least situationally useful even without much stamina: steel tornado and quick cloak.

Laranoye · January 2016

No, it's perfectly reasonable for Sorc's using Dual-Wielding to do more Spell damage.

Couldnt they just add a Passive to all the 2handers... to allow the 2hander to count towards 2 in a set? And also increase spellpower the same if not higher than duel wield.

Any other game in existence the offhand on duel wield is penalized by ALOT so 2handers are always usually better but a bit slower.

However duel wield in this game seems to trump everything.