Wrecking Blow - again!

Lord-Otto · January 2016

Hello!
I know, old story, but it's still a very real matter.

So, I just had some interesting fights in Cyrodiil and watched some captures of a particular player I killed. I got hit by said person for 12k Wrecking Blows, and he is a vet 1. Watched the vids, and he can, as a vet 1, kill v16s within 2 seconds easily with WB alone just by spamming it. The first WB sends one flying, and by the time you broke free, two more WBs have already hit and killed you.

Enough is enough. There are good arguments, pro and con, in regards to the current WB, but when a vet 1 can just spam it and "oneshot" vet 16s with it, that is just BAD design. It's an easy button, a crutch.
And before you even try to argue, no. Just no. Dodging it is way more difficult than you make it to be. The cast time is too short to walk through the enemy, who also backs up. The first WB can be combined with sneak and cloak for an easy "oneshot". And overall, with the insane amount of lag and effects on the screen, you just can't keep in control that easily. WB offers way too much reward for way too few risks.

Here's what, imo, should happen:
1. Longer cast time. 0.8 is too short on the screen to react. At least 1.1 seems appropriate.
2. Remove cc effects. It got removed for Flame Lash, there is no valid justification for WB to still have it. Make it the move people claim it to be in their defenses of it: a dps move.
3. Tweak the damage in accordance to other dps moves. There is absolutely zero reason WB is allowed to VASTLY out-dps my Flame Lash. Maybe the new cp mitigation for physical damage will help, but I feel like Wrecking Blow's innate damage is the problem.

Flameheart · January 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

The first WB sends one flying

Here we have the mistake.

This skill is the reason why stamina builds are prefered in PvP. It eats magicka builds with low stamina for breakfast.
Nothing wrong with that skill. Either be a stamina build user and have a high enough ressource pool to block or if you are a magicka user, stay away, use shields or block once and then use counter CCs and/or flee. Nevertheless stamina users have an advantage, yes. Is that wrong ? not imho.

PS: You know that players will be battle buffed in PvP so that a V1-V16 lvl difference is by no way as big as the numbers let it appear ?

nordsavage · January 2016

Maybe you should learn to duck. It is not a hard skill to dodge.

found1779 · January 2016

As soon as a stamina sorcerer has another means of burst damage. then i would say wb needs to be checked into. but at the moment wrecking blow is the only burst damage a stamina sorcerer has. so it should stay the way it is unless other classes burst damage gets nerfed also. like say a nightblade.

Niaver · January 2016

found1779 wrote: »

As soon as a stamina sorcerer has another means of burst damage. then i would say wb needs to be checked into. but at the moment wrecking blow is the only burst damage a stamina sorcerer has. so it should stay the way it is unless other classes burst damage gets nerfed also. like say a nightblade.

Well the same for stam DK. The only burst ability. And if you are experienced enough you will never be caught by WB.

phillyproduct · January 2016

found1779 wrote: »

As soon as a stamina sorcerer has another means of burst damage. then i would say wb needs to be checked into. but at the moment wrecking blow is the only burst damage a stamina sorcerer has. so it should stay the way it is unless other classes burst damage gets nerfed also. like say a nightblade.

Honestly this is true i have a stam sorc and without wb how would i get thru a 10k shield?

found1779 · January 2016

Niaver wrote: »

found1779 wrote: »

As soon as a stamina sorcerer has another means of burst damage. then i would say wb needs to be checked into. but at the moment wrecking blow is the only burst damage a stamina sorcerer has. so it should stay the way it is unless other classes burst damage gets nerfed also. like say a nightblade.

Well the same for stam DK. The only burst ability. And if you are experienced enough you will never be caught by WB.

Agreed

dday3six · January 2016

A VR1 is effectively a VR15 in PVP. If you're trying to make a valid claim about PVP, don't pretend like statistically a VR1 is that much different than a VR16.

The only thing that needs to change about Wrecking Blow is it's Empower. It shouldn't work on subsequent Wrecking Blows. Same goes for Ambush.

You know, I have a theory that many PVP complaints actually stem from this being the first PVP game several players have played that needs fast reaction time.

olsborg · January 2016

WB "to hit" check is *** up, it hits for way too far away and in wierd angles and sometimes through floor/walls (yes I know about lagg, but this is the only ability that does it so something needs fixed)

Omgwtfbbq321 · January 2016

They need to either give people and mobs swords as long as the damn keep flags or cut the range of WreckingBlow in half. So sick of being a horse length away and still getting upper cut.

Sharee · January 2016

I have a lot less problems with this now that i started playing a heavy-armor s/s magicka DK. Block the first WB, fossilize, DOT the guy up while he is breaking free, root him and get behind so he cant swing at you, if he rolls out of it chain yourself back to him and root again and get behind again, as soon as 8 secs are up from the last fossilize fossil him again and drop a meteor on his head, etc. etc.

Stay aggressive, do not give him enough breathing room to complete the swing.

On a related note, ZOS is planning to add a physical resistance star in the champion system, once that's in WB should hurt a lot less.

Mike0987 · January 2016

There is a reason to have more than 2 health and the rest slotted as 60 magica or stamina... And there is a reason there is blocking which will set him off balance and dizzy making him the lesser in the fight...

pfalzer · January 2016

What! Are you guys wizards?!?! Dodging an attack pffft what will they think of next?!?!

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO · January 2016

WB should be instant with no knockback or stun attached to it and its damage scaled accordingly. Attacks that hit as hard as wrecking blow hits should not burn big chunks of health as well as stamina.

PvP in this game is player verses stamina. The entire playstyle revolves around stunning the other guy, burning their stamina until the opponent is flying through the air or face planted on the ground. Stamina builds have a huge advantage in this. They can lol dodge and CC break for days. It's why you see so many stamina builds in PvP while magicka builds are typically more dominant in PvE where stamina is not being burned.

Vangy · January 2016

Oh dear lord. I was wondering why there has been no nerf Wb threads lately and I almost... Just almost started to think people have finally learnt to counter this ***.... But alas my hope was just a dream....

Bashev · January 2016

nordsavage wrote: »

Maybe you should learn to duck. It is not a hard skill to dodge.

BTW sometimes it is tricky to dodge it.

On topic. ZoS make the skill interruptible. Risk vs reward.

HonourXL · January 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hello!
I know, old story, but it's still a very real matter.

So, I just had some interesting fights in Cyrodiil and watched some captures of a particular player I killed. I got hit by said person for 12k Wrecking Blows, and he is a vet 1. Watched the vids, and he can, as a vet 1, kill v16s within 2 seconds easily with WB alone just by spamming it. The first WB sends one flying, and by the time you broke free, two more WBs have already hit and killed you.

Enough is enough. There are good arguments, pro and con, in regards to the current WB, but when a vet 1 can just spam it and "oneshot" vet 16s with it, that is just BAD design. It's an easy button, a crutch.
And before you even try to argue, no. Just no. Dodging it is way more difficult than you make it to be. The cast time is too short to walk through the enemy, who also backs up. The first WB can be combined with sneak and cloak for an easy "oneshot". And overall, with the insane amount of lag and effects on the screen, you just can't keep in control that easily. WB offers way too much reward for way too few risks.

Here's what, imo, should happen:
1. Longer cast time. 0.8 is too short on the screen to react. At least 1.1 seems appropriate.
2. Remove cc effects. It got removed for Flame Lash, there is no valid justification for WB to still have it. Make it the move people claim it to be in their defenses of it: a dps move.
3. Tweak the damage in accordance to other dps moves. There is absolutely zero reason WB is allowed to VASTLY out-dps my Flame Lash. Maybe the new cp mitigation for physical damage will help, but I feel like Wrecking Blow's innate damage is the problem.

if you get 2 shots by Vet 1, Somethings really wrong with your character or your play style, its easy to interrupt Dodge and avoid but its really annoying skill true that.

timidobserver · January 2016

Yes low levels are viable in PvP now. They are no longer your personal AP cows. I am okay with this.

danno8 · January 2016

High damage + Knockback + 3.5s Stun + Empower?

Balanced.

Seriously though, it really depends on the build and class you are playing. My Magicka Templar has a real problem with WB spam, because Puncturing Sweep (my only class damage skill) requires a 1.1s channel and standing front and center. Classes with instant cast abilities and maneuverability/surplus stamina? Not a problem usually.

Nevertheless, I still think the CC should go. The high damage + empower is more than enough to make this a good skill. CC should be attached to low damage skills, and used to land the big ones.

Gilvoth · January 2016

it needs to stop

Vangy · January 2016

danno8 wrote: »

High damage + Knockback + 3.5s Stun + Empower?

Balanced.

Seriously though, it really depends on the build and class you are playing. My Magicka Templar has a real problem with WB spam, because Puncturing Sweep (my only class damage skill) requires a 1.1s channel and standing front and center. Classes with instant cast abilities and maneuverability/surplus stamina? Not a problem usually.

Nevertheless, I still think the CC should go. The high damage + empower is more than enough to make this a good skill. CC should be attached to low damage skills, and used to land the big ones.

NO. What you really need is for templars to stop being worthless pieces of horse dung due to ZOS's overly affectionate nerfing and to be good for something other than breast feeding people shards and BOL spam. Seriously, every other class regardless of build has a counter for WB. As a templar all u can do is BOL spam and pray you dont die during the CC. As i see it, not a problem with WB. Its just templars suck at the moment. Sorry bro.

danno8 · January 2016

Vangy wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

High damage + Knockback + 3.5s Stun + Empower?

Balanced.

Seriously though, it really depends on the build and class you are playing. My Magicka Templar has a real problem with WB spam, because Puncturing Sweep (my only class damage skill) requires a 1.1s channel and standing front and center. Classes with instant cast abilities and maneuverability/surplus stamina? Not a problem usually.

Nevertheless, I still think the CC should go. The high damage + empower is more than enough to make this a good skill. CC should be attached to low damage skills, and used to land the big ones.

NO. What you really need is for templars to stop being worthless pieces of horse dung due to ZOS's overly affectionate nerfing and to be good for something other than breast feeding people shards and BOL spam. Seriously, every other class regardless of build has a counter for WB. As a templar all u can do is BOL spam and pray you dont die during the CC. As i see it, not a problem with WB. Its just templars suck at the moment. Sorry bro.

Yup Templars need some fixes, no doubt about that.

But I sill think strong CC needs to be uncoupled from strong attacks, for both practical purposes and balance purposes.

Practical purposes in that if WB is your main damage skill you do not want to hit your opponent with CC until the right moment (and Templars would understand this, having the worst CC in the game tagged on to our main DPS ability), and for balance reasons which I think are self-evident.

Removing the CC would have virtually no impact on PvE DPS, and would present a more balanced skill for PvP.

Vangy · January 2016

Removing cc from Wb and making it insta cast while not running its Dps into the ground would actually be a buff in my eyes. Now I can hit Wb 3 time and reliably hit even a good player and follow with fossilize and leap instead of wasting my cc on the first Wb I do.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO · January 2016

As has been repeatedly stated, the CC is the reason people *** about wrecking blow so much. I don't even care about its damage. There are ways to mitigate the damage but ONLY if you're not on your ass. As a templar healer, WB is annoying as *** and it is the #1 reason for legitimate deaths. All anyone has to do is run me out of stamina and I'm dead. I am running sword and board, heavy armor, 1700 stam regen and 11k stamina as a pure healer FFS just to give me a small fighting chance. That's how broken the WB is. The fact that I have to rebuild my character to counter one skill is pathetic.

leepalmer95 · January 2016

The range and cc needs fixing, the cc is glitchy at best and the range is a lot higher than the tooltip

It's annoyingly difficult to dodge a wb if the user knows that he's doing.

Angarato · January 2016

wb is the noobtube ability. it can hit upto 12k damage in a game where most pvpers have around 20k health
add a cc to that and you have the most op move in the game and thats without the fact theres ALSO an empower on it.

most classes have 1 cc button 1 high burst damage button and 1 buff button. wb spammers have 1 button that does all 3.
its NOT easy to run through them unless theyre a potato.
- you can backpeddle while using it
- you can snare the person and he'll never run through you
- if you fail it costs 0 stamina, just press it again
- if you land 1 you can already start casting the next 1 during the animation so even if the target breaks out instantly the next 1 will hit putting them in execute range.
- "you can block" the only other ability that you HAVE to block or die is take flight or ice comet which is an expensive ultimate

2 options to fix this ability
- make it a CC move keep the empower whatever but make it do damage onpar with streak or fossilize or something
- make it a dps move and remove the CC and empower.
-

xAPxZeez · January 2016

Boo hoo someone has a move and I don't like it. Suck it up and learn how to avoid or counter it like everyone else. Dark flare is regularly hitting me for 9-11k, so does overload, frags and numberous other moves.

You WILL DIE IN PVP everyone does. Stop all the nerfing and test these proposed changes better before implimentating them so they don't have to be continuously adjusted on the fly.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hello!
I know, old story, but it's still a very real matter.

So, I just had some interesting fights in Cyrodiil and watched some captures of a particular player I killed. I got hit by said person for 12k Wrecking Blows, and he is a vet 1. Watched the vids, and he can, as a vet 1, kill v16s within 2 seconds easily with WB alone just by spamming it. The first WB sends one flying, and by the time you broke free, two more WBs have already hit and killed you.

Enough is enough. There are good arguments, pro and con, in regards to the current WB, but when a vet 1 can just spam it and "oneshot" vet 16s with it, that is just BAD design. It's an easy button, a crutch.
And before you even try to argue, no. Just no. Dodging it is way more difficult than you make it to be. The cast time is too short to walk through the enemy, who also backs up. The first WB can be combined with sneak and cloak for an easy "oneshot". And overall, with the insane amount of lag and effects on the screen, you just can't keep in control that easily. WB offers way too much reward for way too few risks.

Here's what, imo, should happen:
1. Longer cast time. 0.8 is too short on the screen to react. At least 1.1 seems appropriate.
2. Remove cc effects. It got removed for Flame Lash, there is no valid justification for WB to still have it. Make it the move people claim it to be in their defenses of it: a dps move.
3. Tweak the damage in accordance to other dps moves. There is absolutely zero reason WB is allowed to VASTLY out-dps my Flame Lash. Maybe the new cp mitigation for physical damage will help, but I feel like Wrecking Blow's innate damage is the problem.

Battle leveling is a joke we all agree there but Two Handed and One Hand and Shield is balanced for Tanks not DPS. Stamina DPS has Bow and Duel Wield. Yes it's used for DPS but when they balance it it's with the question of can a Tank use it.

1. The cast time is 1.0 seconds not .8 an extra .1 soconds will not help you.

2. The CC is the only one in it's tree you can't just remove it. Also Tank weapon they need to make DPS better then a Tank weapon but they Nerfed DPS weapons into the ground so Wrecking Blows everywhere.

3. The Champion System's lack of Physical Resistance don't help here but mages with everything into magic with little stamina to block and break and 18k health are doing themselves no favors.

Once again as short sighted as the damage was it was made for Tanks with low damage ratings not the guy that's pure damage.

At this point nothing can be done to bring it under control without breaking it for Tanks maybe have its damage reduced then buffed with Heavy Armor. After all it's an Tank weapon needing Tank Armor to get use out of it is fair game.

#ArgonianStruggle #ArgonianLivesMatter #HashTag

xAPxZeez · January 2016

Instead of rushing to the forums about how ITS OP and MUST NERF maybe YOU should try changing Your bar load out and using different skills. Too many people are relying on the recommendations of others.

Here's an idea go test both morphs of all your skills use them for a day before you cry there is nothing that can stop wb.if by then you still think nothing can be done, watch one of the 1000s of YouTube videos showing MANY WAYS to avoid it.

karldavy149b16_ESO · January 2016

you are aware wrecking blow is channeled right

giving you 1 second to interupt /knockback use a defensive cd dodge rolling

i would suggest the issue does not lie in wrecking blow

but your reaction time

CJohnson81 · January 2016

I was showing my brother Cyrodiil over the Christmas Holiday. I left my keep, hopped on my sweet new black senche, ran about 100 yards and got WB'd from stealth for a one shot kill. I left Cyrodiil and told him, nevermind, it really isn't that fun.