Wrecking Blow - again!

Alucardo

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I die a lot when I PvP, and that is rarely in the recap screen.

Totally. Mine generally looks something like this



And people complain about WB. Please.

DaveMoeDee

SneaK wrote: »

Take the knockdown out and replace it with some sort of off balance like Power Lash has, second landed WB would do more Damage.

Also, for the people that say just dodge it, its far more complex for a magTemp or magDK to dodge, as they can't just roll and then cloak/streak away. Two rolls and no more stam, succumb to the the broken WB.

And there are a lot of things that the magTemp can do that my stam DK using 2H/S&B can't do. Why should you be able to do everything endlessly?

Stigant

Caltrops + Stampede + WB Spam (+ maybe one well placed stun) is almost guaranteed kill unless you fight magicka sorc, or magicka NB who is lucky enough to have Shadow Image somwhere outside the area of the caltrops...

This combo is REALLY HARD to overcome and cost/risk vs. reward of it is way too advantageous over any possible defense against it ... whatever you do (except of streaking out on Sorc maybe) it drains your stamina in matter of seconds ... Gap Closer mechanics, Blocking no-stam-regen and Roll Dodge fatigue AND broken CC mechanics ... those are all in favour of using this skill...

Have met quite few DK's and Stamsorcs doing that ... not that I blame them they just use the mechanics very smartly, but still ...
the way I see it, maikng WB bashable would still keep it very strong, but at least it would give the recieving side at least some chance to counter it while the WB user could still pull off the intended burst if played skillfully. Either that ir remove the CC component, keep the Damage and Empower, maybe tune down the range a bit (5m which is range of 2h HA would seem fine to me)... In my hones opinion smething similar should have been done together with introduction of the Roll Dodge and Blocking changes .. but hey its ZOS who is making this game, very rarely is something thought trought before put into the game

Jura23

some posts here confused me a little bit, just to clarify: blocking doesn't help against WB CC, does it?

Sharee

Jura23 wrote: »

some posts here confused me a little bit, just to clarify: blocking doesn't help against WB CC, does it?

It does help. It's just that when you see someone wind up a WB, it is usually already too late to try and block it, because what you see on your screen is what actually happened a split second ago on the server, and the WB has already landed, even tho you don't know it yet. So you probably won't block the CC unless you were already blocking before the wind-up animation started.

RadicalSpirit

dday3six wrote: »

A VR1 is effectively a VR15 in PVP. If you're trying to make a valid claim about PVP, don't pretend like statistically a VR1 is that much different than a VR16.

The only thing that needs to change about Wrecking Blow is it's Empower. It shouldn't work on subsequent Wrecking Blows. Same goes for Ambush.

You know, I have a theory that many PVP complaints actually stem from this being the first PVP game several players have played that needs fast reaction time.

Disagree with that, plenty of PvP games which are not MMOs, require faster reaction times than ESO, and other MMOs... the only difference is probably the sustained effort.

Battlefield, and other FPS deal with split second reactions almost every encounter, but they're just not sustained like a game such as DC Universe on PS3/4 which would have you punching a tonne of combinations in a low amount of time, over and over for 20 minutes.

I think the people that complain are just the CoD community that don't understand how MMOs are and the effort required to constantly adapt your build, and the fact that one build doesn't mean you'll go around wrecking everyone.

In other PvP genres, how often do you really need to adapt your playstyle or character build? not that often really...

eserras7b16_ESO

WB damage is fine to me, even the cast time, but the CC component of it should be taken off. The quality of the PvP enviroment would improve thou, same goes for ambush and critical rush snare/root thing they implemented, and same goes for the sorcerer magicka shield wich is ridiculously high, or it wouldn't be balanced.

Tankqull

danno8 wrote: »

High damage + Knockback + 3.5s Stun + Empower?

Balanced.

Seriously though, it really depends on the build and class you are playing. My Magicka Templar has a real problem with WB spam, because Puncturing Sweep (my only class damage skill) requires a 1.1s channel and standing front and center. Classes with instant cast abilities and maneuverability/surplus stamina? Not a problem usually.

Nevertheless, I still think the CC should go. The high damage + empower is more than enough to make this a good skill. CC should be attached to low damage skills, and used to land the big ones.

the problem is intensified by the fact your channel snares you during its channel duration while his does not... that is one of the problems with WB it does not apply the casting/channeling snare to the user every other ability with a CT/channeling time does.

Gilvoth

just make wrecking blow cost 25,000 stamina per hit.
problem solved

Lord-Otto

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

FENGRUSH

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

Id like to see more viable options across all weapons - but pretty much all experienced players would not agree with this. Do you want to see a magicka sorc duel or something and see over and over what will happen? On unequal skill footing, the WB user can win because he maintains pressure. Equal skill footing? Its lopsided - because a good magicka sorc will position and weave his skills. If your magicka sorc skill rotation is not good, of course you wont put pressure on them to stop. If it is good, theyre on defense, and once you put a WB on defense, hes pretty much lost the fight already. Its all or nothing aggressiveness.

a1x23

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

you are aware wrecking blow is channeled right


giving you 1 second to interupt /knockback use a defensive cd dodge rolling

i would suggest the issue does not lie in wrecking blow

but your reaction time

Uhh, you can't interrupt WB. You can CC them while in the animation but you can't interrupt with crushing shock or bashing. So if they have CC immunity the only thing you can do is block/dodge roll.

leepalmer95

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

Id like to see more viable options across all weapons - but pretty much all experienced players would not agree with this. Do you want to see a magicka sorc duel or something and see over and over what will happen? On unequal skill footing, the WB user can win because he maintains pressure. Equal skill footing? Its lopsided - because a good magicka sorc will position and weave his skills. If your magicka sorc skill rotation is not good, of course you wont put pressure on them to stop. If it is good, theyre on defense, and once you put a WB on defense, hes pretty much lost the fight already. Its all or nothing aggressiveness.

So if the wb user is a dk and has wings how exactly are you meant to put them on defence? imov pot + cast vigor before that stampede you pretty much means your an easy kill, espically if 1 wb will take out your shield.

If the user is a nb he'll just stealth and wb you. You can only bring them out of stealth so much with the increased streak cost.

SemiD4rkness

When was the last time a wb user won a dueling tournament? Sword and board is way more broken yet nobody even mentioned it.

FENGRUSH

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

When was the last time a wb user won a dueling tournament? Sword and board is way more broken yet nobody even mentioned it.

Most of the people complaining on here arent really experienced in the end game - that is part of the issue.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

Id like to see more viable options across all weapons - but pretty much all experienced players would not agree with this. Do you want to see a magicka sorc duel or something and see over and over what will happen? On unequal skill footing, the WB user can win because he maintains pressure. Equal skill footing? Its lopsided - because a good magicka sorc will position and weave his skills. If your magicka sorc skill rotation is not good, of course you wont put pressure on them to stop. If it is good, theyre on defense, and once you put a WB on defense, hes pretty much lost the fight already. Its all or nothing aggressiveness.

So if the wb user is a dk and has wings how exactly are you meant to put them on defence? imov pot + cast vigor before that stampede you pretty much means your an easy kill, espically if 1 wb will take out your shield.

If the user is a nb he'll just stealth and wb you. You can only bring them out of stealth so much with the increased streak cost.

Because a well spec'd sorc will have closer to 20k shields, and WB will never get through it. When you hit him with curse and det, hes going to be pulling off.

A good NB is NOT going to be stealthing and WBing you... This is what Im talking about lack of experience..

Stigant

Why Are you guys using dueling tournaments as an argument at all? This game never was and never will be balanced around 1v1 or dueling ... imho its not even possible. Noone or very few people run a dueling build in open world ...

As it stands now, this game emphasises too much on single players offense that promotes jumping/ganking and as the best defense offers stupid general mechanics that promote numbers...

If a decent WB user manages to jump you and chains snares, hard CC's and WB+HA rotation right, thrown one potion of immovability in the mix you have two options
1. try to fight back forced into defense that drains your stamina so fast that you have very hard time to actually fight back
2. try to run and get crit rushed/stampeded to death

Of course no WB spammer has ever won a dueling tournament, but thats an isolated and controled enviroment, totally different story, where you need to focus only at your oponent.

I still don't see how is so hard hitting single hit skill with GCD starting on the press of the button with skipable half of the windup animation, range 7m (more than minimal crit rush range, not to mention that once you reach certain point at the animation the range almost doesnt matter), with empower, 4m knockback and 3.5 seconds stun on top, considered a balanced skill for this game, when for most builds the main defense resource pool against CC's is stamina ... Resource that has got its management when it comes to dodgind and blocking nerfed to oblivion ...

SemiD4rkness

Stigant wrote: »

Why Are you guys using dueling tournaments as an argument at all? This game never was and never will be balanced around 1v1 or dueling ... imho its not even possible. Noone or very few people run a dueling build in open world ...

As it stands now, this game emphasises too much on single players offense that promotes jumping/ganking and as the best defense offers stupid general mechanics that promote numbers...

If a decent WB user manages to jump you and chains snares, hard CC's and WB+HA rotation right, thrown one potion of immovability in the mix you have two options
1. try to fight back forced into defense that drains your stamina so fast that you have very hard time to actually fight back
2. try to run and get crit rushed/stampeded to death

Of course no WB spammer has ever won a dueling tournament, but thats an isolated and controled enviroment, totally different story, where you need to focus only at your oponent.

I still don't see how is so hard hitting single hit skill with GCD starting on the press of the button with skipable half of the windup animation, range 7m (more than minimal crit rush range, not to mention that once you reach certain point at the animation the range almost doesnt matter), with empower, 4m knockback and 3.5 seconds stun on top, considered a balanced skill for this game, when for most builds the main defense resource pool is stamina ... Resource that has got its management nerfed to oblivion ...

Still, in open world I kill faster with s&b setup and also im more tanky. Ransack/heroic slash + reverb bash > Wreckin blow.
Yes im comparing 2 skills vs 1 but you can light attack ransack bash + reverb bash in the same amount of time you cast wb. Also you debuff your opponent for 30% less healing. Whatever haha keep these WB nerf threads I dont even use it so it will actually benefit me. Funny how people can't see the real problem and are blinded because wb is the easier way to play a stam build but it is definitely not the strongest.

Stigant

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Why Are you guys using dueling tournaments as an argument at all? This game never was and never will be balanced around 1v1 or dueling ... imho its not even possible. Noone or very few people run a dueling build in open world ...

As it stands now, this game emphasises too much on single players offense that promotes jumping/ganking and as the best defense offers stupid general mechanics that promote numbers...

If a decent WB user manages to jump you and chains snares, hard CC's and WB+HA rotation right, thrown one potion of immovability in the mix you have two options
1. try to fight back forced into defense that drains your stamina so fast that you have very hard time to actually fight back
2. try to run and get crit rushed/stampeded to death

Of course no WB spammer has ever won a dueling tournament, but thats an isolated and controled enviroment, totally different story, where you need to focus only at your oponent.

I still don't see how is so hard hitting single hit skill with GCD starting on the press of the button with skipable half of the windup animation, range 7m (more than minimal crit rush range, not to mention that once you reach certain point at the animation the range almost doesnt matter), with empower, 4m knockback and 3.5 seconds stun on top, considered a balanced skill for this game, when for most builds the main defense resource pool is stamina ... Resource that has got its management nerfed to oblivion ...

Still, in open world I kill faster with s&b setup and also im more tanky. Ransack/heroic slash + reverb bash > Wreckin blow.
Yes im comparing 2 skills vs 1 but you can light attack ransack bash + reverb bash in the same amount of time you cast wb. Also you debuff your opponent for 30% less healing. Whatever haha keep these WB nerf threads I dont even use it so it will actually benefit me. Funny how people can't see the real problem and are blinded because wb is the easier way to play a stam build but it is definitely not the strongest.

Dude ... you just can't keep on one topic can you?
1. I didn't start this thread
2. I don't call for blunt nerf ... read my previous posts before you qote me -> oppose me
3. You are comparing a combo that requires a little more skill and timing and has standard melee range to "one-button-wonder" ...
4. Reverb is broken, we know that .. this is not a Reverb Bash thread thought

SemiD4rkness

Stigant wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Why Are you guys using dueling tournaments as an argument at all? This game never was and never will be balanced around 1v1 or dueling ... imho its not even possible. Noone or very few people run a dueling build in open world ...

As it stands now, this game emphasises too much on single players offense that promotes jumping/ganking and as the best defense offers stupid general mechanics that promote numbers...

If a decent WB user manages to jump you and chains snares, hard CC's and WB+HA rotation right, thrown one potion of immovability in the mix you have two options
1. try to fight back forced into defense that drains your stamina so fast that you have very hard time to actually fight back
2. try to run and get crit rushed/stampeded to death

Of course no WB spammer has ever won a dueling tournament, but thats an isolated and controled enviroment, totally different story, where you need to focus only at your oponent.

I still don't see how is so hard hitting single hit skill with GCD starting on the press of the button with skipable half of the windup animation, range 7m (more than minimal crit rush range, not to mention that once you reach certain point at the animation the range almost doesnt matter), with empower, 4m knockback and 3.5 seconds stun on top, considered a balanced skill for this game, when for most builds the main defense resource pool is stamina ... Resource that has got its management nerfed to oblivion ...

Still, in open world I kill faster with s&b setup and also im more tanky. Ransack/heroic slash + reverb bash > Wreckin blow.
Yes im comparing 2 skills vs 1 but you can light attack ransack bash + reverb bash in the same amount of time you cast wb. Also you debuff your opponent for 30% less healing. Whatever haha keep these WB nerf threads I dont even use it so it will actually benefit me. Funny how people can't see the real problem and are blinded because wb is the easier way to play a stam build but it is definitely not the strongest.

Dude ... you just can't keep on one topic can you?
1. I didn't start this thread
2. I don't call for blunt nerf ... read my previous posts before you qote me -> oppose me
3. You are comparing a combo that requires a little more skill and timing and has standard melee range to "one-button-wonder" ...
4. Reverb is broken, we know that .. this is not a Reverb Bash thread thought

All im trying to say is that WB is not broken. But truth is I play against it as stamina build and I have no trouble blocking it, roll dodging it or cc break it everytime so I imagine it might be harder for magicka builds however ive seen enough fights where the wb spammer gets totally countered (by magicka builds) and it doesnt look that hard to pull off.

Stigant

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

All im trying to say is that WB is not broken.

I would have agreed with you preIC ... 100% ... since the defense nerfs that undirectly made this ability and it's spamming way stronger than it was, something shoul be done with that to bring it to its original state ... all I m trying to say

leepalmer95

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Why Are you guys using dueling tournaments as an argument at all? This game never was and never will be balanced around 1v1 or dueling ... imho its not even possible. Noone or very few people run a dueling build in open world ...

As it stands now, this game emphasises too much on single players offense that promotes jumping/ganking and as the best defense offers stupid general mechanics that promote numbers...

If a decent WB user manages to jump you and chains snares, hard CC's and WB+HA rotation right, thrown one potion of immovability in the mix you have two options
1. try to fight back forced into defense that drains your stamina so fast that you have very hard time to actually fight back
2. try to run and get crit rushed/stampeded to death

Of course no WB spammer has ever won a dueling tournament, but thats an isolated and controled enviroment, totally different story, where you need to focus only at your oponent.

I still don't see how is so hard hitting single hit skill with GCD starting on the press of the button with skipable half of the windup animation, range 7m (more than minimal crit rush range, not to mention that once you reach certain point at the animation the range almost doesnt matter), with empower, 4m knockback and 3.5 seconds stun on top, considered a balanced skill for this game, when for most builds the main defense resource pool is stamina ... Resource that has got its management nerfed to oblivion ...

Still, in open world I kill faster with s&b setup and also im more tanky. Ransack/heroic slash + reverb bash > Wreckin blow.
Yes im comparing 2 skills vs 1 but you can light attack ransack bash + reverb bash in the same amount of time you cast wb. Also you debuff your opponent for 30% less healing. Whatever haha keep these WB nerf threads I dont even use it so it will actually benefit me. Funny how people can't see the real problem and are blinded because wb is the easier way to play a stam build but it is definitely not the strongest.

Dude ... you just can't keep on one topic can you?
1. I didn't start this thread
2. I don't call for blunt nerf ... read my previous posts before you qote me -> oppose me
3. You are comparing a combo that requires a little more skill and timing and has standard melee range to "one-button-wonder" ...
4. Reverb is broken, we know that .. this is not a Reverb Bash thread thought

All im trying to say is that WB is not broken. But truth is I play against it as stamina build and I have no trouble blocking it, roll dodging it or cc break it everytime so I imagine it might be harder for magicka builds however ive seen enough fights where the wb spammer gets totally countered (by magicka builds) and it doesnt look that hard to pull off.

Well if you stampede+caltraps + wb if someone is a magicka build and not a sorc they are dead.

Lord-Otto

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

Id like to see more viable options across all weapons - but pretty much all experienced players would not agree with this. Do you want to see a magicka sorc duel or something and see over and over what will happen? On unequal skill footing, the WB user can win because he maintains pressure. Equal skill footing? Its lopsided - because a good magicka sorc will position and weave his skills. If your magicka sorc skill rotation is not good, of course you wont put pressure on them to stop. If it is good, theyre on defense, and once you put a WB on defense, hes pretty much lost the fight already. Its all or nothing aggressiveness.

I have the very standard damage rotation almost every sorc has, curse, frag, fury. Only mag det is missing, my sorc is still young.
It is not so much the point of damage dealing that irks me. I agree with you, if you can press WB spammers into a defensive stance, you can win against them. But this strategy is not in favor of magicka. See, a sorc's attacks are easily telegraphed. My opponent just blocked most of my dps and I couldn't do anything about it. CC efforts were easily broken free. It is not easy in an open combat to actually kill a stamina build fast, thanks to block, cc break and dodge being stamina abilities.
On the other hand, I have to swap bars for defense shields and heals. I can cc break only so much until I'm dry, and blocking is almost impossible. It is just so easy for a stamina build to defend and all you have to do is wait until the sorc is out of stamina. If I run a stamina build out of magicka, nothing happens. If I lose my stamina, I'm dead. This is not a balanced play, and WB exaggerates this by draining your stamina so fast. If a WB spammer had to kill me by actually working his/her way through my defenses and actually getting my hp to zero, I wouldn't be upset. But WB beats you by attacking your smallest resource, a luxury magicka builds do not have.

bardx86

Because a well spec'd sorc will have closer to 20k shields, and WB will never get through it. When you hit him with curse and det, hes going to be pulling off.

A good NB is NOT going to be stealthing and WBing you... This is what Im talking about lack of experience.. [/quote]


no sorc has 20k shields vs stam.

FENGRUSH

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this wrecking blow is the hardest hitting than even magicka. it keeps you on the ground and unable to move.
the only people defending it here in this thread are people that use it on a constant basis.
the developers removed the damage chat box so you cant see the true damage of skills.
it's now obvious to me why we do not have a built in damage chat box showing how much damage we recieve.
eso is not balanced.

Actually an empowered frag will hit harder than a WB - but its really not single skill damage that matters, its burst windows. As far as burst windows go - WB doesnt really put out the highest, or the most dangerous burst window. Theres better options, and the strongest ones revolve around magicka burst because of detonate (which is hopefully fixed properly this coming patch).

CyrusArya wrote: »

The main problem with Wrecking Blow is the broken CC system which this skill seems to exploit the most. Fix the double CC, and possibly remove the empower buff. That's all that needs to be done. What you're suggesting is 3 massive and over the top nerfs. Nerf the baseline damage and you not only jeopardize the PvE DPS for this skill and an entire play-style, but also every class that relies on this skill for DPS due to a lack of options.

Wanna nerf WB? Fine. Give DK and Sorc a strong stamina dps skill and you can have your nerf.

Seriously tho, WB spam is only an issue for bad players. Every class has built in ways to counter this skill, and a good player can render WB largely obsolete. Just don't be a potato that sits there and eats the WBs without applying any pressure or CC back.

This post is pretty on point. No offense to people posting - but the bolded part is mostly correct. This can be fought against by most classes pretty effectively.

No offense fengrush but I've watched your streams. All you do is wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Wb and bolt. Your biased because this is your main damage dealiqtng rotation. In between, your holding down shift to use Orc speed with cp windrunmer passive so that you can wb and bolt more. This skill is op and you know it. Defending it so that you can continue to use your op rotation is poor taste.

WB is the best stam option for bursting out in open field. You need to address stam weapon options when making changes to the only viable setup for some chars.

Either way - you didnt even really comment on the post. You just quoted me and said I cant defend this because I use it. I fight people using WB al

MikeB wrote: »

Greyhame wrote: »

MikeB wrote: »

It kills me that people can defend WB with a strait face. Can it be dodged? Yes. When you're not getting WB'd from someone in stealth thats 7 meters away from you. The range needs to be cut in half and the CC removed. The only ability that is similar to WB is Ambush, which does half the damage, only immobilizes (not stunned, you can still act) for 1second versus WB's Knocked back AND stunned for 3.5 seconds and both do empower. The only benefit Ambush has over WB is it has a 22 meter range vs WB's 7m range. I'd take WB over Ambush every time if I had to choose one or the other, its a no brainer. Does that really sound balanced? If you say yes you're just fanboying WB.

Did you just say that you would take WB over Ambush every time? I find that hard to believe. Ambush is amazing. I run 2h/bow and my spammable attack is sneak attack most of the time. WB is only useful when you are fighting people that don't know what they are doing. All the people complaining about how OP it is don't know what they are doing. Complaining about WB out of stealth? A charged heavy into a sneak attack from stealth does more damage it just takes a little timing.

So, we have our first fanboy. As someone who has over 50 hours in PvP in ESO, was a Grand Marshall and earned every Gladiator title up to season 8 in WoW I'd say I know what I'm doing. ESO is far from being a balanced PvP experience and until they can learn from others failures it never will be. Not until they separate how abilities perform and act in PvP versus PvE it will never be balanced. There are several videos showing how WB is broken that has nothing to do with its ridiculous range for a melee ability, empower, knock back and stun. Just saying Ambush is better than WB shows how unfamiliar you are with the skill, you shun it over ambush due to the stigma the ability has.

Bro you are comparing a gap closer to a DPS skill. NB can weave ambush and surprise attack faster than a WB goes off and do more damage. You might as well compare crit rush to bombard.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I really hate it when people say Frag is anywhere near the same as Wrecking Blow, similar at most.

Frag has a hard cast that cannot be animation cancelled or have a heavy attack too.

Frag has at most Half the CC time

In order to receive any damage bonus you Must use a DIFFERENT move and only then have 35% chance to proc.

Frags can be interrupted when hard cast.

Frags has a severely lower damage, those 16k Frags would easily be 24k WBs.

Then we could go into how armors/passives/and game mechanics all favor stamina builds and have the game's best non templar heal.

We could go into how you can consistently use the CC bug only with WBs or NBs...

You can say how WB will far more consistently hit target rather than Frag

So please don't even try and say Sorcs have anything like the pure awesomeness that is Wrrrrreecccckkkkkinnnggg BLLLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW

A magicka sorc will manhandle people WB spamming 1v1. If youre not - you need to revisit the skills on your bar.

I do not agree with this.
Wrecking Blow can be handled with as a sorc, but Critical Rush can not (I'll leave Ambush out, because.). Unless you streak really far away, where the opponent might just enter stealth as a response, you are always vulnerable to a gap-close-wb-spam combo, which is deadly fast.
I played around with said opponent and can safely tell you that mines won't save you from WB's range and Streak puts you into more trouble than out of. WB can instantly kill you if you have no cc immunity up, that is such a threat you can't just ignore. A sorc, on the other hand, has only telegraphed bursts and a really unreliable CF proc. All of which is easily blocked. And the longer the fight lasts, the more your stamina bar works against you. If you can't knock out the WB user in the first 15 seconds (and you can't against a competent player), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.

I have seen many ideas here how to tweak WB. I think it's time ZOS did anything. Even a small change like removing the knockback would be a start. It is a difficult skill to balance, but leaving it as is since 1.6, which is almost a year ago, is just an inacceptable approach for balancing means.

Id like to see more viable options across all weapons - but pretty much all experienced players would not agree with this. Do you want to see a magicka sorc duel or something and see over and over what will happen? On unequal skill footing, the WB user can win because he maintains pressure. Equal skill footing? Its lopsided - because a good magicka sorc will position and weave his skills. If your magicka sorc skill rotation is not good, of course you wont put pressure on them to stop. If it is good, theyre on defense, and once you put a WB on defense, hes pretty much lost the fight already. Its all or nothing aggressiveness.

I have the very standard damage rotation almost every sorc has, curse, frag, fury. Only mag det is missing, my sorc is still young.
It is not so much the point of damage dealing that irks me. I agree with you, if you can press WB spammers into a defensive stance, you can win against them. But this strategy is not in favor of magicka. See, a sorc's attacks are easily telegraphed. My opponent just blocked most of my dps and I couldn't do anything about it. CC efforts were easily broken free. It is not easy in an open combat to actually kill a stamina build fast, thanks to block, cc break and dodge being stamina abilities.
On the other hand, I have to swap bars for defense shields and heals. I can cc break only so much until I'm dry, and blocking is almost impossible. It is just so easy for a stamina build to defend and all you have to do is wait until the sorc is out of stamina. If I run a stamina build out of magicka, nothing happens. If I lose my stamina, I'm dead. This is not a balanced play, and WB exaggerates this by draining your stamina so fast. If a WB spammer had to kill me by actually working his/her way through my defenses and actually getting my hp to zero, I wouldn't be upset. But WB beats you by attacking your smallest resource, a luxury magicka builds do not have.

You shouldnt be blocking. WB doesnt drain your stamina - you drain your stamina if youre blocking.. and if you dont have det.. not sure what to tell you. Not having proper equipment and skills is part of the reason a player with better skill or equipment is going to kill you. This is to be expected.

Equal skill/gear - you win.

bardx86 wrote: »

Because a well spec'd sorc will have closer to 20k shields, and WB will never get through it. When you hit him with curse and det, hes going to be pulling off.

A good NB is NOT going to be stealthing and WBing you... This is what Im talking about lack of experience..

no sorc has 20k shields vs stam.

[/quote]

I guess you dont fight sorcs with 45k mana pools.


Some of you guys could hop on twitch and check out a little of this stuff and see the validity. Just opened syphers past broadcast from yesterday playing a magicka sorc. He has 21k shields using healing ward additionally, and has a fairly low max magicka build because its not even an ideal setup.

You can also see countless players using WB on him, you can see his stam bar, the fact that hes not blocking - and them dying to a standard curse/det/DB+Frab+exe combo. Has mines, doesnt even need to use them on a lot of people.

But instead - you just get personal stories of people that were probably outplayed. You really cant balance around people that dont know how to defend themselves.

Lord-Otto

This directly bites with your own argumentation, as I stated in my beginning posts how my said dueling partner could easily "instagib" vet 16 players using WB spam. As a vet 3. Stealth->knock in the air->WB->WB->dead. Neither is this skill, as he only pushed a button, nor is he better geared, obviously. I, on the other hand, can't do that, as a magicka sorc. Only WB does it. Maybe Ambush, but that's another topic. Thus, it is very one-sided balancing. This is what I surely can tell you.
No, I don't block WB often. Because I can't, as you say. You will find how many people defend WB by suggesting dodging or blocking, which don't work. Glad you're with me on this.

I'll look up Syphers broadcast, thanks for letting us know. I expect Sypher being just really good, though. From a balancing perspective, you got to be critical about Sypher's skill being a deciding factor.
About broadcasts, I watched your Stamina Sorc build video yesterday, and your fight in the sewers against an emperor sorc. A few things that I noticed...
You constantly repeat in your build video how hard WB hits. EXACTLY! It is a spammable ability that often hits harder than an ultimate and has broken range with one of the most powerful cc's built into it. All with one button press. That is a little excessive and very unfair if you compare it to some magicka equivalents. Which leads me to the emperor fight.
Here, you showed exactly why WB needs a tweak. The whole fight, you only spammed WB and it hit hard, plus it launched him out of the fight for quite a bit of time. The knockback just isn't broken free fast enough. When the sorc emperor got distance, you just crit rushed him, effectively negating any ranged combat, something that is also a nonsense thing in a balanced game. You said yourself how a sorc's weakness is his stam pool. You have no such weakness, as you only needed your magicka for some rare buffing up and the occasional streak. You could cc, attack, move/elude and heal with your biggest resource, your stamina, that just doesn't dry up easily. Note how you can't be killed easily because of that, even by an emperor. On the other hand, as soon as you cc'ed him (after the npc hit, yes), your damage window and WB's insane dps were enough to kill him. With just one button spam. This shows exactly how WB defies just every aspect of balancing.

In my opinion, DW should be the dps skill line. You have Steel Tornado and Rapid Strikes. 2H should be uitility and burst damage, but CC should not be part of it. The moment stamina builds can heal, cc and break free/dodge, magicka builds become outclassed. If you remove hard cc effects from stamina skills as Wrecking Blow, you are forced into oberserving your magicka for cc, just as magicka builds have to observe their stamina for break free. That would be balancing, and has been suggested quite a few times already.

deltascout112

Omfg shut up lol dodge roll, block, blink away, there are many ways around wrecking blow. When I fight another class that uses 2h I automatically assume he is going to hit me when wb so I watch for it and take appropriate action. It is hard to hit someone with wb who knows what they are doing. A good strat is to watch for it and run straight past them or dodge roll behind them, it cancels out the cast, you have to be in front of them to get hit.

Stigant

deltascout112 wrote: »

Omfg shut up lol ...

really? thats the way to talk these days? I must be getting old

Srry for offtopic .. just couldn't resist

bowmanz607

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hello!
I know, old story, but it's still a very real matter.

So, I just had some interesting fights in Cyrodiil and watched some captures of a particular player I killed. I got hit by said person for 12k Wrecking Blows, and he is a vet 1. Watched the vids, and he can, as a vet 1, kill v16s within 2 seconds easily with WB alone just by spamming it. The first WB sends one flying, and by the time you broke free, two more WBs have already hit and killed you.

Enough is enough. There are good arguments, pro and con, in regards to the current WB, but when a vet 1 can just spam it and "oneshot" vet 16s with it, that is just BAD design. It's an easy button, a crutch.
And before you even try to argue, no. Just no. Dodging it is way more difficult than you make it to be. The cast time is too short to walk through the enemy, who also backs up. The first WB can be combined with sneak and cloak for an easy "oneshot". And overall, with the insane amount of lag and effects on the screen, you just can't keep in control that easily. WB offers way too much reward for way too few risks.

Here's what, imo, should happen:
1. Longer cast time. 0.8 is too short on the screen to react. At least 1.1 seems appropriate.
2. Remove cc effects. It got removed for Flame Lash, there is no valid justification for WB to still have it. Make it the move people claim it to be in their defenses of it: a dps move.
3. Tweak the damage in accordance to other dps moves. There is absolutely zero reason WB is allowed to VASTLY out-dps my Flame Lash. Maybe the new cp mitigation for physical damage will help, but I feel like Wrecking Blow's innate damage is the problem.

Battle leveling gives stats that are very close to v16 if not on the money with v16 when properly geared. The only real gap between a vet 1 and a vet 16 are the passive and amount of skills available to the player. Damage, healing etc no longer has a gap between high level and low level vets. The difference in power comes with champ points.

leepalmer95

deltascout112 wrote: »

Omfg shut up lol dodge roll, block, blink away, there are many ways around wrecking blow. When I fight another class that uses 2h I automatically assume he is going to hit me when wb so I watch for it and take appropriate action. It is hard to hit someone with wb who knows what they are doing. A good strat is to watch for it and run straight past them or dodge roll behind them, it cancels out the cast, you have to be in front of them to get hit.

Please stop saying useless stuff, we all know how to counter it, magicka builds don't have the stamina to block it.

A good wb user will snare you in some way making it impossible to walk through them, the hit rate and range of wb is bugged, i could be parallel next to them and it'll still hit me despite them not even facing me.

I could be 15m away and it'll still hit me.

Again mag build don't have the stamina to dodge roll.

deltascout112

Class?