Vet Levels Going Away?

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2016

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

That's not what's wrong with veteran levels. What wrong with veteran levels is that they are not levels. If they had simply made them normal levels, there would be a lot less complaining. Basically there is a huge divide in power between V1 and V16. On top of that it takes an absurd amount of time to get to V16 compared to levels 1-49. During that time you are in this sort of weird limbo, where you are too strong for some content but not strong enough for anything that's worth a damn. Add to the fact that a normal group only consists of 4 people instead of 6 like many other MMOs and that means that most parties can't even afford to have you tag along as dead weight. Not to mention anyone with any sense doesn't bother to even put on decent gear till they are V16 only adds to the ineffectiveness of not being max level.

Divinius · January 2016

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

That is absolutely not a fact.

I for one hate the vet ranks, why because I love playing alts, and it's ridiculous that I have to send my Breton hating, dark elf hating Bosmer to both of those alliances and oh wait, it's as if I never took her through an alliance before.

If I never have to grind silver and gold I will be happy.

You realise that to get more champion points on said alt, you'll still have to go through those zones but likely as a different name, right?

You will of course have all champion points from your other character(s) already but those zones will still be there to explore.

Having the zones there to explore does not force me to do them. Having them there is okay for my imperials but not my Bosmer.

Point is, they didn't need to get rid of Vet Ranks to make people like you happy. They just needed to give you a viable way to level them that didn't involve the mess of Silver and Gold.

wayfarerx · January 2016

Divinius wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

That is absolutely not a fact.

I for one hate the vet ranks, why because I love playing alts, and it's ridiculous that I have to send my Breton hating, dark elf hating Bosmer to both of those alliances and oh wait, it's as if I never took her through an alliance before.

If I never have to grind silver and gold I will be happy.

You realise that to get more champion points on said alt, you'll still have to go through those zones but likely as a different name, right?

You will of course have all champion points from your other character(s) already but those zones will still be there to explore.

Having the zones there to explore does not force me to do them. Having them there is okay for my imperials but not my Bosmer.

Point is, they didn't need to get rid of Vet Ranks to make people like you happy. They just needed to give you a viable way to level them that didn't involve the mess of Silver and Gold.

No, the post above yours makes a good point:

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Basically there is a huge divide in power between V1 and V16. On top of that it takes an absurd amount of time to get to V16 compared to levels 1-49. During that time you are in this sort of weird limbo, where you are too strong for some content but not strong enough for anything that's worth a damn. ... Not to mention anyone with any sense doesn't bother to even put on decent gear till they are V16 only adds to the ineffectiveness of not being max level.

The VR limbo sucks. Don't waste time running vet dungeons for crummy VR3 monster helms, or farming chests in Wrothgar, etc. Just grind up to v16 so rewards you get are actually meaningful. It doesn't matter where we have to grind out that 13 million XP, the fact that we have to do it at all is what is terrible.

Enodoc · January 2016

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

The only thing that isn't clear to me is whether the cap is a soft cap. I'm not a fan of caps; if someone wants to grind away and get 800000 champion points, let them.

@RizaHawkeye 501 is a soft cap; you can still earn CPs (at a slower rate) beyond that cap, but you can't use them. The CP hard cap is 3600.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

That's not what's wrong with veteran levels. What wrong with veteran levels is that they are not levels. If they had simply made them normal levels, there would be a lot less complaining.

I woldn't say that; if they were normal levels, you'd still have to go through Cadwell's to level up enough to be able to do Craglorn (etc).

Divinius wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

That is absolutely not a fact.

I for one hate the vet ranks, why because I love playing alts, and it's ridiculous that I have to send my Breton hating, dark elf hating Bosmer to both of those alliances and oh wait, it's as if I never took her through an alliance before.

If I never have to grind silver and gold I will be happy.

You realise that to get more champion points on said alt, you'll still have to go through those zones but likely as a different name, right?

You will of course have all champion points from your other character(s) already but those zones will still be there to explore.

Having the zones there to explore does not force me to do them. Having them there is okay for my imperials but not my Bosmer.

Point is, they didn't need to get rid of Vet Ranks to make people like you happy. They just needed to give you a viable way to level them that didn't involve the mess of Silver and Gold.

Now that is true. If the VR cap had stayed at 10, and Lower Craglorn had been introduced as VR3-5 content with Upper Craglorn as VR8-10 content, then VRs would have been fine. But they decided to make Craglorn VR11+, "forcing" you through Cadwell's (VR1-10) to get there.

Divinius wrote: »

Vet Ranks had two core problems that were the vast majority of all complaints:
1) They took for-freakin-ever to level
2) You pretty much had to do it in Cadwell's Silver and Gold.

Number 1 above has been significantly improved for a while now. They take WAY less xp and time than they used to.

Number 2 is still a problem (though the new DLC zones are helping).

The main thing people complained about was not that they have to level beyond 50... it was HOW they had to level beyond 50. Lots of people think that Cadwell's Silver and Gold are stupid. If there was an equally viable alternative to Silver and Gold where people could have leveled their vet ranks, far less people would have been complaining about them.

But the complaints about Silver and Gold just got attached to Vet Ranks themselves, and now ZOS is jumping though mad hoops trying to get rid of the Vet Ranks, while replacing them with a system where you still have to grind XP, and where Silver and Gold are still the most viable ways to do so.

Yes, the fact that CP is account wide is nice... for people that don't want to take the time to level other characters.

But the core problem with Vet Ranks isn't going to go away by removing Vet Ranks. It's going to go away by adding much more new content where people can gain xp (now just for CP, instead of Vet Ranks) past 50, so that the people that hate Silver and Gold can skip them.

I'm hoping that the removal of Vet Ranks will cause them to rebalance Cadwell's, such that you will no longer feel forced all the way through it in order to do the endgame content (Craglorn etc). There's also the rumour that they are changing the access rules; hopefully that means we'll be able to do Gold and Silver at the same time.

RizaHawkeye · January 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

So what? The Vet Ranks are removed but the champion points remain? So just points without a rank?
How does that change anything?

@RizaHawkeye Dont know if its been said, but the champion points "catch up" system is now working off an XP curve. (it requires significantly more XP to get 1 CP when you currently have 500 CP than when you have 0 CP)

The affore mentioned XP/CP curve includes the "champion point Cap" [currently 501] within its formula. This is of benefit because by changing this cap the total amount of XP/Grind required to reach "end game/gear cap" can be set.

For example first Vet ranks come in Vet 10, then increase, V12, V14, V16 gear. Each leap expanding the Grind required to be "max Level" for new players. This is bad for the games health as it can discourage new players and alt creation.

The new system can be used to ensure the ~15million(example only) XP / grind required to reach gear cap of 160CP is maintained for a new payer joining 3 or 4 years from now when it may be 300 CP. Simply by raising the CP cap above 501

Thanks for that. That's helpful.

JD2013 wrote: »

What's wrong with veteran levels is most people don't want to take time to level other characters and want everything instantly as opposed to having to work for it.

I actually was thinking of a couple of different ways to respond to this. After thinking about it, I'll just this:

Leave the vet levels (if they add so much to the game) for all I really care. I've played since June and my highest character is level 34. (I've had one higher but I deleted her.) I do every quest, I run every dungeon, I look in every crate, bag or barrel. I maybe get eight hours, maybe 10 a week to play, and it often takes me an hour or so to run a quest hub.

I don't know how people level to 50 in less than 10 hours as some have suggested in this thread. Even if I rush it, I won't get to level 50 in a week, let alone 10 hours. It's just not how I play.

So, not be snotty, but just to be clear: there has never been anything "instant" about my experience with ESO.

But I won't lie: if the vet levels don't go, I don't know how committed I'll be to this video game once I get to level 50. I've obviously never done the end game, maybe it will be the most exciting thing ever. But if it's just a grind of running the same quests I've already done, a rewash of the same set of clothes, I'll probably look to another video game for my entertainment. I don't like grinding. It's not my play style. If I'm going to work that hard at something so completely boring, I want to get paid for it.

And I'll work on things like my family, my friends, graduate school and teaching.

Divinius · January 2016

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

cdobratz · January 2016

I have all my alts up to VR1 to prepare for this

Evergnar · January 2016

danno8 wrote: »

VR rank removal...some day.
Class balance...one day.
Race change...soon.
Barber shop...eventually.
Spell crafting...being worked on, sort of, maybe.
...
...
...

that pretty much sums it up.

Magdalina · January 2016

Divinius wrote: »

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

It's more like "level 210" or something far as time goes. Granted they did nerf xp but still...level 1-50 you gain roughly 10 levels per zone if you do EVERYTHING. Well maybe a bit less, let's say 9. Vet zones you earn roughly one level per zone...maybe more now with all the nerfs but it's still far from a normal level. It's not just that we don't want to level our character a few more levels, it's that we don't want to level our character TWO OR THREE TIMES as much as we already have. That is quite the difference, don't you think?

My numbers may be a little bit off since I haven't tried questing to level alts for a rather long time. However last I did try it it still took doing EVERYTHING in a zone to get one vet rank and that's put me off for about...ever.

wayfarerx · January 2016

Divinius wrote: »

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

There are aspects of the game's design that play into this beyond just "level 50 is fine but 65 is too much!"

How many levels does it take you to unlock most of your skills, learn your character, get started on a good build, etc? THAT should be the defining metric for when "end game" starts. For me, by the time I leave Coldharbour I feel like I have a pretty well-rounded character. Sure I might need some more lorebooks or fighters guild ranks or whatnot, but that's mostly just polish. At level 50 I've learned the class and race, I've figured out that character's play style.

Everything after that is just busy work. Honestly, has anyone had an epiphany about their character while slogging through their fourth or fifth vet rank? Do you really encounter things on that 13 million XP grind that allow you to "get good?" I don't know about you, but I learn about how to play my characters after getting my *** handed to me in vCoA or vMA or Cyrodiil.

So what, exactly, do vet ranks bring to the table besides a ridiculously long grind?

RizaHawkeye · January 2016

Divinius wrote: »

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

Fair enough, and when I said I'd stop at level 50, I didn't mean I'd suddenly pull the plug at level 50 and go somewhere else. What I'm saying is that when I get to the point that all I have left is the endgame content of repeating quests, I will probably quit. Unless there's some super-cool endgame that I'm not seeing, there's nothing to keep me here but a grind, right? And I hate grinding.

Either way, whatever happens with vet levels, I suspect it will have little to no impact on me at all. Levels don't mean that much to me; if they did, I would have reached V-level long ago (as I said, I've been here since June).

What I can't really understand is the mentality of, "I had to grind to earned this, dammit, and you should have to grind, too." What difference does it make? It's not like you get a degree when you're done, or a raise, or like it in any way improves the quality of life on the planet. It's just a game. Or to look at it another way: it's a way for Zenimax to separate you from your money. That's the only reason ESO exists.

Edit: I realize that sounds harsh. But really, games are just what we do after a long, hard day of saving the real world.

NightRibon23444 · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

NightRibon23444 wrote: »

What's so wrong with the vet lvls now??? Oh let me think!! Nothing!!!

Are you serious? I'm looking forward to them being removed so I can say goodbye to my crappy battle levelling and start building my character properly to enjoy the game, instead of worrying about grinding my arse off on another 7 characters, only to find they've increased the veteran ranks again in future DLC.
Removing vet ranks will ensure we'll never have to endure an increase again. Progression is still there in the form of Champion Points, so there's still reason to grind if that's what you're into.
This is absolutely a step in the right direction. I was neutral about it at first, but the more I think about it, the better I think it will be.

Not even close. It has only gone up 2 ranks. Vet14 to Vet16. You can hit lvl50 before you beat Molag Bal in your faction. This is ridiculous. Also they are only going to give upto 70 Champion points. That doesn't cover the grind to get to Vet 16. Also there is no way they will get it right. I don't care how long they wait or claim to not release until it's ready. It will be messed up. How about this, fix the real issues first than worry about the things that don't need fixing.

wayfarerx · January 2016

NightRibon23444 wrote: »

Not even close. It has only gone up 2 ranks. Vet14 to Vet16.

Maybe for console folks, but this is the third max rank increase for us on the PC side.

NightRibon23444 wrote: »

You can hit lvl50 before you beat Molag Bal in your faction.

So? You can also corpse-run your way to most of the skyshards at level 3. How does that even pertain to anything?

NightRibon23444 wrote: »

This is ridiculous. Also they are only going to give upto 70 Champion points. That doesn't cover the grind to get to Vet 16.

Not even sure what you're talking about here. The 70 CP we got when the champion system was introduced? They said they would be giving out enough CP to equal everyone's vet rank when VR is removed.

NightRibon23444 wrote: »

Also there is no way they will get it right. I don't care how long they wait or claim to not release until it's ready. It will be messed up. How about this, fix the real issues first than worry about the things that don't need fixing.

Well, surely the fear of things going wrong should keep ZOS from ever trying to fix anything. /sarcasm

nimander99 · January 2016

Ranks are basically being converted into CP's. So that weapon that you need to be VR16 to use will now require 160 CP's to use. Still the same, just a different name and more numbers.

Justice31st · January 2016

No longer any forced boring Caldwell quests. No longer, wishing that I should of lvled a Sorcerer than a Templar. No longer will I have to endlessly grind in Cyrodil dungeons or IC. Now, I will no longer be bored playing my way with my 8 characters of choice. +1 to ZOS, to making the grind account bound and not based on a single character. Thank you.

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

VR levels going away is a good thing.

Focusing soley on Champion Point system is a horrible thing. Especially for an MMO (which this game struggles to be)

Moving from one bad system to the next.

wayfarerx · January 2016

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Focusing soley on Champion Point system is a horrible thing. Especially for an MMO (which this game struggles to be)

Why is it bad? What would a better end-game progression system look like?

CaptainObvious · January 2016

You aren't forced to run Cadwell's Silver and Gold right now. Pre-Wrothgar you had Cyrodiil and Craglorn. The regular run up provides you with a base skill point count.

Some people want everything without expending effort. Those people will always be disappointed in lives both virtual and real.

If you think you don't need silver and gold then the people that earn the additional skill points from those areas will leave you in the dust regardless of how advancement takes place.

MaxBat · January 2016

CaptainObvious wrote: »

You aren't forced to run Cadwell's Silver and Gold right now. Pre-Wrothgar you had Cyrodiil and Craglorn. The regular run up provides you with a base skill point count.

Some people want everything without expending effort. Those people will always be disappointed in lives both virtual and real.

If you think you don't need silver and gold then the people that earn the additional skill points from those areas will leave you in the dust regardless of how advancement takes place.

Yeah, skill points are the only reason I run silver and gold right now, because you sure as crap aren't getting any real leveling benefits from it. As someone else, said about one level a zone, if that.

But "people leaving you in the dust"? I don't know about that. If you're not running a crafting toon, you may not even need those unless you're tying to max out every skill line in the game. One or two weapons and you'll have everything maxed out by the end of your factions zones, assuming a trip or two to Cyrodiil along the way.

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Focusing soley on Champion Point system is a horrible thing. Especially for an MMO (which this game struggles to be)

Why is it bad? What would a better end-game progression system look like?

Impossible to balance.

Over complicates progression.

Belongs in a single player/coop game like Diablo.

Adds convulated stats to players and weapons.

Adds ridiculous requirements to weapons and armor. Example: Level 50 & 150 Champion points to equip.

It is a lazy man's system for adding replayability to a game. They're gonna have to add new gear each big DLC anyways. I personally think they just don't want to design character level increases to new zones.

Hiero_Glyph · January 2016

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Focusing soley on Champion Point system is a horrible thing. Especially for an MMO (which this game struggles to be)

Why is it bad? What would a better end-game progression system look like?

Impossible to balance.

Over complicates progression.

Belongs in a single player/coop game like Diablo.

Adds convulated stats to players and weapons.

Adds ridiculous requirements to weapons and armor. Example: Level 50 & 150 Champion points to equip.

It is a lazy man's system for adding replayability to a game. They're gonna have to add new gear each big DLC anyways. I personally think they just don't want to design character level increases to new zones.

While I agree that CP have caused a ton of imbalance the removal of vet ranks is a fantastic change. The proposed system only seems complicated because we do not have much information about it yet. And as for being a lazy man's system, how is having 10x more end-game zones a bad thing? Do you actually prefer a strict leveling path of starting alliance > silver > gold > craglorn > ...? That current system is far more restrictive than the proposed system and having to rebalance nearly every zone in the game is hardly lazy. If you honestly hate where ESO is going, I'm sure an Asian MMO has the grind you want and there are plenty of those to play.

Abeille · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Everything after that is just busy work. Honestly, has anyone had an epiphany about their character while slogging through their fourth or fifth vet rank? Do you really encounter things on that 13 million XP grind that allow you to "get good?" I don't know about you, but I learn about how to play my characters after getting my *** handed to me in vCoA or vMA or Cyrodiil.

So what, exactly, do vet ranks bring to the table besides a ridiculously long grind?

Exactly. I admit that, back when Veteran Areas were actually HARD, they did help me learning to play my class better. But that was back on the first semester of 2014, when VR experience gains were not flat and every fight against more than two veteran npcs offered the very real chance of getting you killed if you didn't pay attention. But now? They are kinda pointless

WalkingLegacy · January 2016

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Focusing soley on Champion Point system is a horrible thing. Especially for an MMO (which this game struggles to be)

Why is it bad? What would a better end-game progression system look like?

Impossible to balance.

Over complicates progression.

Belongs in a single player/coop game like Diablo.

Adds convulated stats to players and weapons.

Adds ridiculous requirements to weapons and armor. Example: Level 50 & 150 Champion points to equip.

It is a lazy man's system for adding replayability to a game. They're gonna have to add new gear each big DLC anyways. I personally think they just don't want to design character level increases to new zones.

While I agree that CP have caused a ton of imbalance the removal of vet ranks is a fantastic change. The proposed system only seems complicated because we do not have much information about it yet. And as for being a lazy man's system, how is having 10x more end-game zones a bad thing? Do you actually prefer a strict leveling path of starting alliance > silver > gold > craglorn > ...? That current system is far more restrictive than the proposed system and having to rebalance nearly every zone in the game is hardly lazy. If you honestly hate where ESO is going, I'm sure an Asian MMO has the grind you want and there are plenty of those to play.

I don't like the veteran system either. Right now they have three different leveling systems for character progression. That's purrty dumb.

Lazy man's system is making a zone scalable to all levels such as wrothgar. Expect all future zones to be this way. They have no immediate plans to go back and fix current "end game" zones and this is directly from the last ESO live.

I don't know where you're coming from about Asian MMOs. Why do I have to go play those wallet busters for a grind? I have the bad paragon champion point system in ESO to on top of alliance rank to grind.

Hand_Bacon · January 2016

Two things we know for certain if people actually read what ZoS puts out and/or listens to ESO Live.

1. The change will not be the magical pill to alt stardom that VR haters want.
2. The change will not be as bad as VR lovers fear.

Knowing these forums we know ONEmore thing for certain.

There will be enough for many people here to complain about, either way.

Bartdude · January 2016

Did anyone stop to think that they may increase the grind from 1-50 so that you still have to do silver/gold? if you take away the grind then you may as well remove the content too because they'll be no need for it.

firstdecan · January 2016

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Knowing these forums we know ONE more thing for certain.

There will be enough for many people here to complain about, either way.

Oh thank goodness. If ZOS fixes that issue so many players will have nothing else to do nut play the game.

Just for some perspective - when ZoS originally introduced VR ranks, there were only 10 ranks, they required separate VR points to level, and they only let you use slightly better gear. There was less of a gap between VR1 and VR10 then as there is now. VR was intended to be a secondary, much slower leveling system for advanced players that only provided small incremental bonuses, and it was supposed to take months to get to max VR (VR10 at PC release). As it turns out, early exploiters figured out how to get to VR10 just days after release, causing the rush to get to 'max level' so players would feel more competitive in PvP.

The VR system has seen a lot of tweaking since PC release, and ZoS never achieved their goal of an enjoyable but prolonged secondary leveling system with it. This is the real reason behind the introduction of champion points and their intention to remove VR. VR never worked the way they wanted, the champion system is their renewed attempt at an enjoyable but prolonged secondary leveling system (their effectiveness at this is debatable, and a tangent I would rather not pursue).

At this point I can't remember when ZoS first announced their intention to remove VR ranks, I think it's been over a year. I don't believe they've announced a timeframe for VR rank removal, and it's not something I would expect anytime soon. I've been playing since PC beta, and I've seen a number of unfulfilled intentions by ZoS (not blaming, just stating). I would think if they really wanted to remove VR they would have done so by now, or they are simply holding onto it for the next major reboot of the game (ESO 3.0) and will roll it out with other overhauls.

Vangy · January 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

I'm going to write quite a lengthy discussion on what I think about veteran removals, so hold on to your hats because this story is going to be full of romance, drama and about to be one emotional rollercoaster.
It's going to be quite large, so I'll break it down into chapters starting with one today.

WHAT I THINK ABOUT VETERAN RANK REMOVALS, CHAPTER 1
It will be a good thing.

Fin.

Best damn thing I read on the forums today. Buh byeee vet levels. Imo it's like finally kicking that whiny needy Girlfriend who forces u to stop spending time with your other friends just cause she needs so much attention out the door.(just like grinding vet levels) Hallelujah.

Dradhok · January 2016

I’m fine with them removing the VR but they had better do it well. My guess is that it will have disastrous effects on the game and we’ll experience game play issues for months.

Farorin · January 2016

Divinius wrote: »

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

I've never really understood the mentality of "I will play the game to participate in grinding and leveling".

For me what is fun is actually getting better and more skillful at the game.

Grinding, leveling, all that crud. It is boring as heck. All it does is make me not want to play because all it is, is a huge time waster and cheap "filler".

Hand_Bacon · January 2016

Farorin wrote: »

I've never really understood the mentality of "I will play the game to participate in grinding and leveling".

For me what is fun is actually getting better and more skillful at the game.

Grinding, leveling, all that crud. It is boring as heck. All it does is make me not want to play because all it is, is a huge time waster and cheap "filler".

Everything in this game has levels, gear, skill lines, skills....leveling those puts more abilities in the players use.

Whats the magic bullet to take the capriciousness out of the word "leveling"? Where do you draw the line? Is it really just VR?

Is it any type of progression where you're rewarded for spending time doing rather than not?

Fine, get rid of VR. What's next, the AP grind? No no, that's already stated a few times a week. Undaunted grind? Nope, that likewise is already complained about. How about just all leveling and for that matter as well as any and all acquisition of items. This should really be Elder Scrolls SIms with an unlimited money cheat.

Why not just make this an "Adventure FPS". Everything is coop and nothing is earned other than maybe little "you killed 10 beas" achievement badges... Oh wait, then there would be disparity in the number of achievements and Timmy over there in the corner might feel bad if he doesn't have them too. So no achievements either, nip that in the bud!