Vet Levels Going Away?

Hand_Bacon · January 2016

We all get that CP is account wide and that this is a work in progress.

But what about new characters/alts and the proposed incremental CP achievements to unlock skill points, abilities, and content? Will those achievements be account wide or for each character. If they are for each character then not much is really changing.

Reminds me a bit of the famed Chewbacca Defense.

Venomback · January 2016

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

It's coming. Unlikely to be this month tho.

Really? So will they simply remove the silver/gold thing? Because I will be at level 50 long before I finish my current faction. And then, what's my motivation to keep playing?

You can still collect pets through the crown store...not motivating enough?

Enodoc · January 2016

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

I've really never understood the mentality of, "I'll play the game to level a character to 50, but I don't want to have to level to 65!"

I realize that VR levels are more than "just another 15 levels" but still, the concept is the same. "I am willing to put in the time to level a character, but not all the way."

Fair enough, and when I said I'd stop at level 50, I didn't mean I'd suddenly pull the plug at level 50 and go somewhere else. What I'm saying is that when I get to the point that all I have left is the endgame content of repeating quests, I will probably quit. Unless there's some super-cool endgame that I'm not seeing, there's nothing to keep me here but a grind, right? And I hate grinding.

Either way, whatever happens with vet levels, I suspect it will have little to no impact on me at all. Levels don't mean that much to me; if they did, I would have reached V-level long ago (as I said, I've been here since June).

What I can't really understand is the mentality of, "I had to grind to earned this, dammit, and you should have to grind, too." What difference does it make? It's not like you get a degree when you're done, or a raise, or like it in any way improves the quality of life on the planet. It's just a game. Or to look at it another way: it's a way for Zenimax to separate you from your money. That's the only reason ESO exists.

Edit: I realize that sounds harsh. But really, games are just what we do after a long, hard day of saving the real world.

I think you misunderstand what happens when you reach level 50 (or complete the initial story line). It's linked to the idea of what actually constitutes "end game" - level 50 doesn't mean you've reached "end game" and you are automatically competitive in PvP or are ready to complete the hardest trials.

When you've done your starter faction story you can opt to do Cadwell's Silver and Gold - you're told that in order to bring an end to the wars so you can concentrate on more serious threats, you must experience the other factions.

That way you can, if you choose, go through all of the faction stories with one character - seen by many (though not the vocal ones here) as a good thing.

You don't have to do Cadwell's, nobody is forcing you to. You can go to Craglorn (though that's a bit hard at VR1 and much of it requires grouping). You can PvP. You can go to Wrothgar (if you have bought it). You could simply grind XP to level up - gaining CP as well as VR.

Also, it is misleading to suggest (as some have done here) that your character is "complete" when you reach level 50. You'll only have a third of the skyshards/skill points. You will not have had time to level up all of the crafting skills, you won't even have access to the higher level materials.

If you want quests rather than grinds, the Cadwell's Silver and Gold are for you, and that (hopefully) won't change when they remove VR. Then you have Wrothgar, and then you'll be waiting on future content.

I hadn't even CONSIDERED all this @I_killed_Vivec ... so after Vet Rank removal we will have a bunch of players thinking they're at "max level" feeling like they should be competitive with other end-game players. Oh man... that's going to be terrible... they really should have just made Vet Ranks another 30 levels... Oh well... nothing we say, do, post, whatever... will change their mind. ZOS knows best... they think .

Assuming all of the above (all of it), then I'm not sure why they even bothered with making veteran ranks in the first place. I'm sure there was a game management reason at the time (they were in place when I bought the game), but really, why are they better than a game that just continues to level indefinitely or level to a soft or hard cap? It seems as if Zenimax over-complicated things.

Why not just continue the levels to 51, 52 .... whatever?

Veteran Ranks were introduced so that there was a measure of progress through Cadwell's zones. They didn't continue with Levels 5x because Level 50 is officially the level cap, and Cadwell's is officially endgame content. At this time (just after launch), it worked fine; PvE players gained VRs through Cadwell's, and PvP players gained VRs through Cyrodiil, which was Level 50 content back then.

But then... then they introduced Craglorn as VR11 content, and bumped the difficulty of Cyrodiil to VR12. Suddenly, VRs were no longer a measure of progression, and they became a requirement for content. Level 50 PvP players could no longer compete against the increased difficulty in Cyrodiil, and people who were waiting for Craglorn's group content were also underleveled. Thus Cadwell's content stopped being considered endgame, and began to be seen as a grind. You needed to go through Cadwell's every time you hit 50 in order to get up to VR12 to do the content you wanted to do.

And it went downhill from there.

Enodoc · January 2016

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

We all get that CP is account wide and that this is a work in progress.

But what about new characters/alts and the proposed incremental CP achievements to unlock skill points, abilities, and content? Will those achievements be account wide or for each character. If they are for each character then not much is really changing.

Reminds me a bit of the famed Chewbacca Defense.

Rich has said they are considering an alternate method that is not based on CPs for the skill points - this would be moving the 15 attribute/skill points gained from VRs into the 1-50 levelling curve, so that you have 64 by the time you hit 50.

There has never been any indication of CP achievements being used to unlock abilities or content.

Farorin · January 2016

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

I've never really understood the mentality of "I will play the game to participate in grinding and leveling".

For me what is fun is actually getting better and more skillful at the game.

Grinding, leveling, all that crud. It is boring as heck. All it does is make me not want to play because all it is, is a huge time waster and cheap "filler".

Everything in this game has levels, gear, skill lines, skills....leveling those puts more abilities in the players use.

Whats the magic bullet to take the capriciousness out of the word "leveling"? Where do you draw the line? Is it really just VR?

Is it any type of progression where you're rewarded for spending time doing rather than not?

Fine, get rid of VR. What's next, the AP grind? No no, that's already stated a few times a week. Undaunted grind? Nope, that likewise is already complained about. How about just all leveling and for that matter as well as any and all acquisition of items. This should really be Elder Scrolls SIms with an unlimited money cheat.

Why not just make this an "Adventure FPS". Everything is coop and nothing is earned other than maybe little "you killed 10 beas" achievement badges... Oh wait, then there would be disparity in the number of achievements and Timmy over there in the corner might feel bad if he doesn't have them too. So no achievements either, nip that in the bud!

Way to blow my statement out of proportion.

Progression doesn't have to be linear, nor does it have to take away large chunks of time that could be better spent. That is my point. The linear grind of veteran ranks to me and to many others is painful, boring, and seen as a huuuuuge and essentially useless time sink and pointless filler.

wayfarerx · January 2016

Farorin wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

I've never really understood the mentality of "I will play the game to participate in grinding and leveling".

For me what is fun is actually getting better and more skillful at the game.

Grinding, leveling, all that crud. It is boring as heck. All it does is make me not want to play because all it is, is a huge time waster and cheap "filler".

Everything in this game has levels, gear, skill lines, skills....leveling those puts more abilities in the players use.

Whats the magic bullet to take the capriciousness out of the word "leveling"? Where do you draw the line? Is it really just VR?

Is it any type of progression where you're rewarded for spending time doing rather than not?

Fine, get rid of VR. What's next, the AP grind? No no, that's already stated a few times a week. Undaunted grind? Nope, that likewise is already complained about. How about just all leveling and for that matter as well as any and all acquisition of items. This should really be Elder Scrolls SIms with an unlimited money cheat.

Why not just make this an "Adventure FPS". Everything is coop and nothing is earned other than maybe little "you killed 10 beas" achievement badges... Oh wait, then there would be disparity in the number of achievements and Timmy over there in the corner might feel bad if he doesn't have them too. So no achievements either, nip that in the bud!

Way to blow my statement out of proportion.

Progression doesn't have to be linear, nor does it have to take away large chunks of time that could be better spent. That is my point. The linear grind of veteran ranks to me and to many others is painful, boring, and seen as a huuuuuge and essentially useless time sink and pointless filler.

Agree, the linear aspect is what sucks. This is a TES game, leveling skills and such is the bread and butter of this series.

However, imagine if in Skyrim you had to level unarmed to max, then you could start leveling block, then after maxing that out you could start working on your spellcasting skills. Sounds lame and grindy, right? Welcome to VR.

flubber77 · January 2016

Removing VR ranks are a huge misstake, just think of this, when u get your 3600 cp, THEN WHAT? do they want to end this game? there will be no progression after hitting 3600 cp,
@ZOS_GinaBruno please deliver this msg to delvs.

I do like the idea of skipping from lvl 50 to max with cp but i dont like the idea of no pregressions after lvl 50.
i do not see how this will motivate pve players to do quest anymore...

and i can tell for sure that i have done all the quest many times to lvl up my characters.

wayfarerx · January 2016

flubber77 wrote: »

Removing VR ranks are a huge misstake, just think of this, when u get your 3600 cp, THEN WHAT? do they want to end this game? there will be no progression after hitting 3600 cp

Yes, let's saddle ourselves with a sub-par, grindy progression system because in five years and after 20 DLCs we might max out our champion rank. There's no way the devs can come up with a way for the game to continue in that time frame so, sorry baby, out with the bath water you go.

flubber77 · January 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

flubber77 wrote: »

Removing VR ranks are a huge misstake, just think of this, when u get your 3600 cp, THEN WHAT? do they want to end this game? there will be no progression after hitting 3600 cp

Yes, let's saddle ourselves with a sub-par, grindy progression system because in five years and after 20 DLCs we might max out our champion rank. There's no way the devs can come up with a way for the game to continue in that time frame so, sorry baby, out with the bath water you go.

u really think it will take 5 year before u have all 3600 cp? just ask your self WHY

wayfarerx · January 2016

flubber77 wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

flubber77 wrote: »

Removing VR ranks are a huge misstake, just think of this, when u get your 3600 cp, THEN WHAT? do they want to end this game? there will be no progression after hitting 3600 cp

Yes, let's saddle ourselves with a sub-par, grindy progression system because in five years and after 20 DLCs we might max out our champion rank. There's no way the devs can come up with a way for the game to continue in that time frame so, sorry baby, out with the bath water you go.

u really think it will take 5 year before u have all 3600 cp? just ask your self WHY

No... I think it will take that long for ZOS to raise the cap to 3600.

I honestly have no idea how a "why" question would work into this at all.

eventide03b14a_ESO · January 2016

Sallington wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Definitely happening. ZOS said they'd let us know more info in the New Year (So, hopefully soon!).

We will all be dropped to level 50 and gear will have CP requirements instead of VR requirements.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

A little context here before this gets too out of hand…
We’re still working on the system – nothing is finalized. (which is why we’re not really talking much about it yet)

The intention is that once you hit 50, champion points take over. Veteran Ranks are completely removed.

When Veteran Ranks are removed, we will convert any Veteran Ranks on your highest character into CP.

To get a rough idea of balance - think of 10CP = 1 VR. (so 160 CP will roughly = VR16)

Additional Details:
We’re planning on giving 2.5 CP for every VR level you’ve earned on your highest level character. (40 for a VR16 character)

When the conversion happens, any player with CP less than their old veteran rank * 10 will instead be given enough CP such that their total is VR * 10. For example: A player is VR14 with 75 CP, they will be given 65 CP (140-75) instead of 40, so that they can still equip any gear they may have.

We will make sure the 16 attribute picks you got from VR1 to VR16 will carry over. (current plan is an achievement that goes up in 10 CP increments until 160)

Keep in mind that none of the stuff above is 100% locked in. We're still implementing the feature - things are subject to change. It's important that everyone understands they are not suddenly going to have to have 501 CP in order to equip the top level gear. We will introduce new gear, with higher CP requirements sometime in the future, but we won't be making huge jumps. (i.e. - we won't go from 160 to 400 suddenly)

Once we finalize the system and lock in more of the details, we will discuss things in more detail and answer questions.

So basically the CP, which was supposed to flavor your character and provide long term improvement is now going to effect what gear you can use? So those with high CP can be even more powerful than those with lower CP. I was wondering how they were going to widen the gap even further. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like a terrible idea on paper?

Worse than that, gear progression becomes purely an XP grind.

"Darn, I can't equip that piece yet. Better go farm cats for a week until I can."

Basically it becomes this:

https://youtu.be/dAxZVZgpmI0