Cinbri wrote: »

______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

So you're saying Templars don't have much utility outside of healing... yeah, we don't.

I think once we get dueling arenas, everyone in the game will start to hold classes in an individual light outside of group play and "class roles," meaning more balancing and nerfs. Yay.

Cinbri wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

And yet everything you've listed isn't going to happen. A class shouldn't have every ability in the game. Wanna know what happens when they do? Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything. Give EVERY class EVERYthing and it makes EVERYone the same. I mean, might as well just have one global class at the rate of people complaining their class doesn't have a certain ability another does. Better yet, just remove classes altogether and let people choose between every skill.

Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers

ZoS has stated class roles before for a reason. Then everyone wanted to "play how they wanted to play" and now everything has completely gone to hell. But by all means, lets keep posting about how we want every ability in the game and give "CLASSES" no difference between each other.

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Did you even read my post? I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each except Templar. Dude, at least read before answering.

Ampnode wrote: »

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar, i have only respond from Wrobel on Reddit that templar DD capabilities will be improved to make them equal to other classes. Seems we playing different game.

---

@Thalia this bug caused by high server latency. You can see on video of lagzura when it not wasting ultimate, the worse latency is the higfhest rate to get this bug. Ult still suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMTkh-LsWk

Cinbri wrote: »

I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each b]except[/b] Templar.

Here you go again about classes having this and that while yours doesn't. Did you ever come to think in the little bit of logic that you have yet to display that the passives and skills selected for a class are like that for a reason? I'll post what I said again. "Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything." Based on those 7 paragraphs of comparing your class to another, it seems as though the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for, again, a reason.

Cinbri wrote: »

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar

Sorry, but I don't have every quote from ZoS moderators bookmarked/copied on a notepad. If you really don't believe that there were class specific roles at one point, then you must not have played since beta. "Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers" Not only that, but it's blatantly obvious based on the skills/passives the classes get. Especially back in the early days of ESO when being a stamplar/stam DK/stam sorc/stamblade was unheard of.

If the 7 paragraphs you posted that compare your class to another was to simply point out what your class unfortunately doesn't have, then you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Because again, the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason(At some point back when everyone didn't complain about wanting to be a different role for their class).

And just in case if you're wondering, I'm a mag dk main. If there's a class that's "suffering" far worse, it'd be the almighty mag dk.

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

And yet everything you've listed isn't going to happen. A class shouldn't have every ability in the game. Wanna know what happens when they do? Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything. Give EVERY class EVERYthing and it makes EVERYone the same. I mean, might as well just have one global class at the rate of people complaining their class doesn't have a certain ability another does. Better yet, just remove classes altogether and let people choose between every skill.

Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers

ZoS has stated class roles before for a reason. Then everyone wanted to "play how they wanted to play" and now everything has completely gone to hell. But by all means, lets keep posting about how we want every ability in the game and give "CLASSES" no difference between each other.

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Did you even read my post? I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each except Templar. Dude, at least read before answering.

Ampnode wrote: »

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar, i have only respond from Wrobel on Reddit that templar DD capabilities will be improved to make them equal to other classes. Seems we playing different game.

---

@Thalia this bug caused by high server latency. You can see on video of lagzura when it not wasting ultimate, the worse latency is the higfhest rate to get this bug. Ult still suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMTkh-LsWk

Cinbri wrote: »

I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each b]except[/b] Templar.

Here you go again about classes having this and that while yours doesn't. Did you ever come to think in the little bit of logic that you have yet to display that the passives and skills selected for a class are like that for a reason? I'll post what I said again. "Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything." Based on those 7 paragraphs of comparing your class to another, it seems as though the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for, again, a reason.

Cinbri wrote: »

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar

Sorry, but I don't have every quote from ZoS moderators bookmarked/copied on a notepad. If you really don't believe that there were class specific roles at one point, then you must not have played since beta. "Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers" Not only that, but it's blatantly obvious based on the skills/passives the classes get. Especially back in the early days of ESO when being a stamplar/stam DK/stam sorc/stamblade was unheard of.

If the 7 paragraphs you posted that compare your class to another was to simply point out what your class unfortunately doesn't have, then you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Because again, the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason(At some point back when everyone didn't complain about wanting to be a different role for their class).

And just in case if you're wondering, I'm a mag dk main. If there's a class that's "suffering" far worse, it'd be the almighty mag dk.

The reason you can get a quote from ZoS about templars intended on being the healing class is because they never said such a thing and in fact, have consistently mentioned their desire that each class could fulfill every role.

If it's so "blatantly obvious" that DKs are supposed to be tanks and that "the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason", perhaps you could explain why every single passive from the Ardent flame line is dedicated to dealing damage.

bikerangelo wrote: »

Class roles and class balance are arbitrary. DK's are some of the most effective tanks in the game, yet sorcerers, nightblades and templars can tank as well. Sorcerers are some of the most effective dps in the game, but DK's, nightblades and templars can dps as well. Templars are some of the most effective healers in the game, but DK's, sorceres and nightblades can heal as well.

Now that that's been outlined, please tell me how templars should remain solely "healers," because every other class can heal almost as damn good as templars with even better sustain passives.

Ill have to disagree.

A templar cannot deal as much DPS as a Sorc, Nb or DK.

And a Sorc, NB or Dk cannot heal as good as a templar.

Templars are the best healers by far. Rite of passage, Cleansing ritual, Healing Ritual, Breath of life!?.

A DK cannot keep up with all those heals, any class for that matter cant keep up with such heals. I have a DPS/Heal Sorc, Heals arent good at all. All i can heal with is in the Restoration staff Skill like which is basically all Regens, and shields.

Ampnode wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

And yet everything you've listed isn't going to happen. A class shouldn't have every ability in the game. Wanna know what happens when they do? Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything. Give EVERY class EVERYthing and it makes EVERYone the same. I mean, might as well just have one global class at the rate of people complaining their class doesn't have a certain ability another does. Better yet, just remove classes altogether and let people choose between every skill.

Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers

ZoS has stated class roles before for a reason. Then everyone wanted to "play how they wanted to play" and now everything has completely gone to hell. But by all means, lets keep posting about how we want every ability in the game and give "CLASSES" no difference between each other.

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Did you even read my post? I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each except Templar. Dude, at least read before answering.

Ampnode wrote: »

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar, i have only respond from Wrobel on Reddit that templar DD capabilities will be improved to make them equal to other classes. Seems we playing different game.

---

@Thalia this bug caused by high server latency. You can see on video of lagzura when it not wasting ultimate, the worse latency is the higfhest rate to get this bug. Ult still suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMTkh-LsWk

Cinbri wrote: »

I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each b]except[/b] Templar.

Here you go again about classes having this and that while yours doesn't. Did you ever come to think in the little bit of logic that you have yet to display that the passives and skills selected for a class are like that for a reason? I'll post what I said again. "Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything." Based on those 7 paragraphs of comparing your class to another, it seems as though the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for, again, a reason.

Cinbri wrote: »

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar

Sorry, but I don't have every quote from ZoS moderators bookmarked/copied on a notepad. If you really don't believe that there were class specific roles at one point, then you must not have played since beta. "Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers" Not only that, but it's blatantly obvious based on the skills/passives the classes get. Especially back in the early days of ESO when being a stamplar/stam DK/stam sorc/stamblade was unheard of.

If the 7 paragraphs you posted that compare your class to another was to simply point out what your class unfortunately doesn't have, then you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Because again, the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason(At some point back when everyone didn't complain about wanting to be a different role for their class).

And just in case if you're wondering, I'm a mag dk main. If there's a class that's "suffering" far worse, it'd be the almighty mag dk.

The reason you can get a quote from ZoS about templars intended on being the healing class is because they never said such a thing and in fact, have consistently mentioned their desire that each class could fulfill every role.

If it's so "blatantly obvious" that DKs are supposed to be tanks and that "the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason", perhaps you could explain why every single passive from the Ardent flame line is dedicated to dealing damage.

wat

Because the class needs some sort of damage output somewhere? I mean, if they didn't have whip, they'd have no ability to hurt somebody except for 2 DoTs. I guess tanks aren't allowed to do a bit of damage. Woo! Your "acknowledgement" of a skill line with damage passives doesn't go unnoticed, though; however, it has no correlation to what I mean by a class's role being "blatantly obvious". Hang on, guys! They have 2 damage passives! That means they aren't tank oriented! (World in Flame passive only counts towards an ultimate that's rarely used in PvP)

Let's list passives that actually define what I mean by "blatantly obvious"
- Block an additional 10% damage
- Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is activated.
- Increases Spell Resistance by (2500)
- Increases Health Recovery by 4% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
- Restores Health, Magicka and Stamina; Restore amount increased by 70% of the Ultimate's cost
- Restores 5% Stamina when activating an Earthen Heart ability

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason you can get a quote from ZoS about templars intended on being the healing class is because they never said such a thing and in fact, have consistently mentioned their desire that each class could fulfill every role.

Oh, wait! Let me throw back your logic for a second here. Ahem... Can you get a quote from ZoS where they said they have the desire so each class could fulfill every role?

C'mon, bud, you're better than that. If you're going to try and debate with somebody, don't throw out something as nonsensical as a few passives that increase DoT damage and a flame whip that does barely 4K crit while ignoring the other 2 whole skill lines. And I always think to myself why majority of templars are the biggest whiners in ESO right now. These conversations between some of you sum it right up.

So...DKs were not supposed to be just "tanks" afterall, but now they are also supposed to have "some sort" of damage. Or more accurately, more than some sort since they have numerous specific passives designed to increase that damage above and beyond average builds. So much for blatantly obvious. But it's ok for templars just to be healhots. Yep, we totally get it.

What about the NB, which is "blatantly obvious" insta-DPS class according to you? Refreshing shadows - Increase health, stamina, and magicka recovery by 15%. You claim DK health/stamina resource recovery is "tanky," so this applies. Shadow Barrier - grant major ward and major resolve. Tanky? Check. Dark vigor - increases max health. More tankiness. Soul Siphoner - increases amount of (self) healing for each siphoning abiltiy slotted. Great tanky passive combined with the many NB skills that restore health.

Is it possible, just maybe, that the developers made the classes versatile enough that all could fulfill each role and to use that cliched phase, "play as you want"?

According to Nick Konkle, who was one of the original developers in charge of combat, yes. In a developer gameplay preview towards the end of Beta in January 2014, he talked about the "Dragonknight Firestaff" build where he said: "It's kind of an unusual combination..there really isn't an archetype that it fits with per se...it wasn;t something necessarily that we built the game around. It's something that emerged naturally when people found the synergy between the firestaff and some of the Dragonknight abilities. It's pretty popular and it's also quite survivable as you can see I'm both tanking and dishing out some pretty solid AoE damage." In short they put in different sorts of abilities and passives that did not have an intended purpose except for playing to pick and chose stuff that energized to naturally create non-archetypal and effective builds that they wanted to play.

Interestingly from the same preview, we do we see the other developers playing? One is playing a damage dealing Archer Templar - a class you claim is for healing - and another developer playing a Sorcerer healer - a class you claim was purposely intended to be a burst DPS.

When I raided back in the day with We Kill Bosses, I was in numerous Teamspeak sessions with ESO staff memebers, including two with the new combat lead Eric Wrobel. All of the discussion revolving combat mechanics stressed the same basic premise of what Konkle and the original developers wanted, the ability to customize workable builds and roles for each class. Wrobel specifically cited the change to the healing version of Necrotic Orb so as to give non templar Healers more viable tools to fulfill that role in raids.

So you have you gut instinct based on nothing but your opinion of what some passives are geared toward (while conveniently ignoring others) and the actual words and gameplay of the people who designed the game.

So go ahead and dismissively call me "bud" and capitalize and bold stuff all you want. It doesn't make you right.

As many have pointed out repeatedly, the four classes are here for a general sense of archetype building and familiarity, but it ends there. You can and should be able to do whatever you want to do using any class, and the problem here is that Templars cannot, whereas the three other classes can.

This isn't rocket science people, come on.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

And yet everything you've listed isn't going to happen. A class shouldn't have every ability in the game. Wanna know what happens when they do? Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything. Give EVERY class EVERYthing and it makes EVERYone the same. I mean, might as well just have one global class at the rate of people complaining their class doesn't have a certain ability another does. Better yet, just remove classes altogether and let people choose between every skill.

Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers

ZoS has stated class roles before for a reason. Then everyone wanted to "play how they wanted to play" and now everything has completely gone to hell. But by all means, lets keep posting about how we want every ability in the game and give "CLASSES" no difference between each other.

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Did you even read my post? I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each except Templar. Dude, at least read before answering.

Ampnode wrote: »

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar, i have only respond from Wrobel on Reddit that templar DD capabilities will be improved to make them equal to other classes. Seems we playing different game.

---

@Thalia this bug caused by high server latency. You can see on video of lagzura when it not wasting ultimate, the worse latency is the higfhest rate to get this bug. Ult still suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMTkh-LsWk

Cinbri wrote: »

I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each b]except[/b] Templar.

Here you go again about classes having this and that while yours doesn't. Did you ever come to think in the little bit of logic that you have yet to display that the passives and skills selected for a class are like that for a reason? I'll post what I said again. "Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything." Based on those 7 paragraphs of comparing your class to another, it seems as though the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for, again, a reason.

Cinbri wrote: »

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar

Sorry, but I don't have every quote from ZoS moderators bookmarked/copied on a notepad. If you really don't believe that there were class specific roles at one point, then you must not have played since beta. "Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers" Not only that, but it's blatantly obvious based on the skills/passives the classes get. Especially back in the early days of ESO when being a stamplar/stam DK/stam sorc/stamblade was unheard of.

If the 7 paragraphs you posted that compare your class to another was to simply point out what your class unfortunately doesn't have, then you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Because again, the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason(At some point back when everyone didn't complain about wanting to be a different role for their class).

And just in case if you're wondering, I'm a mag dk main. If there's a class that's "suffering" far worse, it'd be the almighty mag dk.

The reason you can get a quote from ZoS about templars intended on being the healing class is because they never said such a thing and in fact, have consistently mentioned their desire that each class could fulfill every role.

If it's so "blatantly obvious" that DKs are supposed to be tanks and that "the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason", perhaps you could explain why every single passive from the Ardent flame line is dedicated to dealing damage.

wat

Because the class needs some sort of damage output somewhere? I mean, if they didn't have whip, they'd have no ability to hurt somebody except for 2 DoTs. I guess tanks aren't allowed to do a bit of damage. Woo! Your "acknowledgement" of a skill line with damage passives doesn't go unnoticed, though; however, it has no correlation to what I mean by a class's role being "blatantly obvious". Hang on, guys! They have 2 damage passives! That means they aren't tank oriented! (World in Flame passive only counts towards an ultimate that's rarely used in PvP)

Let's list passives that actually define what I mean by "blatantly obvious"
- Block an additional 10% damage
- Increases healing received by 12% while a Draconic ability is activated.
- Increases Spell Resistance by (2500)
- Increases Health Recovery by 4% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
- Restores Health, Magicka and Stamina; Restore amount increased by 70% of the Ultimate's cost
- Restores 5% Stamina when activating an Earthen Heart ability

Joy_Division wrote: »

The reason you can get a quote from ZoS about templars intended on being the healing class is because they never said such a thing and in fact, have consistently mentioned their desire that each class could fulfill every role.

Oh, wait! Let me throw back your logic for a second here. Ahem... Can you get a quote from ZoS where they said they have the desire so each class could fulfill every role?

C'mon, bud, you're better than that. If you're going to try and debate with somebody, don't throw out something as nonsensical as a few passives that increase DoT damage and a flame whip that does barely 4K crit while ignoring the other 2 whole skill lines. And I always think to myself why majority of templars are the biggest whiners in ESO right now. These conversations between some of you sum it right up.

So...DKs were not supposed to be just "tanks" afterall, but now they are also supposed to have "some sort" of damage. Or more accurately, more than some sort since they have numerous specific passives designed to increase that damage above and beyond average builds. So much for blatantly obvious. But it's ok for templars just to be healhots. Yep, we totally get it.

What about the NB, which is "blatantly obvious" insta-DPS class according to you? Refreshing shadows - Increase health, stamina, and magicka recovery by 15%. You claim DK health/stamina resource recovery is "tanky," so this applies. Shadow Barrier - grant major ward and major resolve. Tanky? Check. Dark vigor - increases max health. More tankiness. Soul Siphoner - increases amount of (self) healing for each siphoning abiltiy slotted. Great tanky passive combined with the many NB skills that restore health.

Is it possible, just maybe, that the developers made the classes versatile enough that all could fulfill each role and to use that cliched phase, "play as you want"?

According to Nick Konkle, who was one of the original developers in charge of combat, yes. In a developer gameplay preview towards the end of Beta in January 2014, he talked about the "Dragonknight Firestaff" build where he said: "It's kind of an unusual combination..there really isn't an archetype that it fits with per se...it wasn;t something necessarily that we built the game around. It's something that emerged naturally when people found the synergy between the firestaff and some of the Dragonknight abilities. It's pretty popular and it's also quite survivable as you can see I'm both tanking and dishing out some pretty solid AoE damage." In short they put in different sorts of abilities and passives that did not have an intended purpose except for playing to pick and chose stuff that energized to naturally create non-archetypal and effective builds that they wanted to play.

Interestingly from the same preview, we do we see the other developers playing? One is playing a damage dealing Archer Templar - a class you claim is for healing - and another developer playing a Sorcerer healer - a class you claim was purposely intended to be a burst DPS.

When I raided back in the day with We Kill Bosses, I was in numerous Teamspeak sessions with ESO staff memebers, including two with the new combat lead Eric Wrobel. All of the discussion revolving combat mechanics stressed the same basic premise of what Konkle and the original developers wanted, the ability to customize workable builds and roles for each class. Wrobel specifically cited the change to the healing version of Necrotic Orb so as to give non templar Healers more viable tools to fulfill that role in raids.

So you have you gut instinct based on nothing but your opinion of what some passives are geared toward (while conveniently ignoring others) and the actual words and gameplay of the people who designed the game.

So go ahead and dismissively call me "bud" and capitalize and bold stuff all you want. It doesn't make you right.

Holy $#!%. "So...DKs were not supposed to be just "tanks" afterall, but now they are also supposed to have "some sort" of damage." Do you not play any other game at all or something? A tank is supposed to do SOMETHING other than just sit there getting whacked at by 10+ people(can hardly do that anymore). You call a 3K whip and 2 DoTs role breaking enough to not be considered a tank class? If you do, then please just stop replying with your reasoning. Your logic is that a tank is supposed to solely be a rock and not be able to help and put out at least a third of the DPS of a NB/Sorc. So much for blatantly obvious? Again, a DKs 3K whip with 2 DoTs isn't going to do anywhere near a NBs 8K+ surprise attacks and a Sorcs 14K+ frag/velocious curse combo.

You're comparing a DK to a NB. You're seriously kidding, right? Do you not READ what's posted or something? I've stated so many times throughout my posts that if we you do what you templars are complaining about wanting, that they'd be like a NB. A class that has EVERYTHING. Disregard everything you just typed about comparing a DK(a class nerfed to the ground because they were too good at being a tank) to a NB(the class that has everything because of previous complainers like the templars), because now you're not even making a damn bit of sense at this point.

"What about the NB, which is "blatantly obvious" insta-DPS class according to you?" Like I've said many, many times already. NBs are currently the OP class because they're not just insta-DPS anymore. They've been buffed so many times that they have everything a class can want. Basically, what you templars want. What happens when ZoS does give templars everything just like the NB? Oh, that's right. Forum posts complaining about how templars are the next OP class. Give them an execute, insta-DPS, mobility, etc. and they actually may be better than a NB because they have the ability to flick out 8K BoLs. You cannot sit there and actually think that a class should have the ability to have everything. You can't. Because again, there wouldn't be a damn point in classes at all if everyone was the same. Do you not see that? Yes or no?

You're also trying to say a damage dealing Archer Templar is a counter to my argument. How is it? This is Elder Scrolls. The beauty of the ES games were to use any combination of weapons you wanted. The thing is, you're all taking "play how you want" too literal. If it was literal and you could play however you wanted, then we wouldn't have classes in the first place. Of course a templar can use a bow. Does it mean it'll be even remotely effective? Especially back in 2014 when CP weren't implemented and stamplars weren't even a thing? ESO has changed and progressed in build theories since then. Magicka templars and magicka sorcerers don't go around using a bow with poison injection anymore. As for the sorcerer healer, it's just not as effective as the class that's designed for healing, a templar. Any class can do the same thing, but no where near as effective. You're getting mixed up between: A class having the ability to play a specific role and a class successfully playing a specific role. If you go with "a class successfully playing a specific role", then there's no reason to have classes in the first place. Sounds repetitive, I know, but I'm trying to make you understand why there's classes in the first place.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

As many have pointed out repeatedly, the four classes are here for a general sense of archetype building and familiarity, but it ends there. You can and should be able to do whatever you want to do using any class, and the problem here is that Templars cannot, whereas the three other classes can.

This isn't rocket science people, come on.

Sorcs, NBs, and DKs cannot be effective enough healers to top a templar. NBs, Templars, and DKs don't have effective enough shields to top a sorc. Templars and DKs cannot be effective enough to top NBs/Sorcs DPS. You can choose to be a NB healer. You can choose to be a max DPS DK. You can choose to be a shielding Temp. But you will not top what another class can do the same but far better, which is why I say there is class specific roles.

I just want Toppling Charge fixed...

Also, keep in mind that certain elements of the game (PvE vs PvP) cater more heavily to class optimization rather than class experimentation. PvP? High damage, efficient utility and mobility. PvE? Much more forgiving with regards to difficulty and a strict requirement of class effectiveness.
There's also a reason we have stamina classes and magicka classes, because each class isn't (or shouldn't) be restricted to a certain archetype. If anything, the "classes" are a reference to a playstyle, not a requirement for a group role.

Thallia wrote: »

Ill have to disagree.

A templar cannot deal as much DPS as a Sorc, Nb or DK.

And a Sorc, NB or Dk cannot heal as good as a templar.

Templars are the best healers by far. Rite of passage, Cleansing ritual, Healing Ritual, Breath of life!?.

A DK cannot keep up with all those heals, any class for that matter cant keep up with such heals. I have a DPS/Heal Sorc, Heals arent good at all. All i can heal with is in the Restoration staff Skill like which is basically all Regens, and shields.

Let me clarify what I said. Templars are the best healing class, but other classes can still fulfill the role of healing, although it will be much more difficult. A nightblade sap tank with a restoration staff is incredibly effective, a sorcerer with a restoration staff has great sustain built into their passives and can still succeed using the restoration skill tree. Does this compare to a BoL burst heal? No, but it's still possible for other classes to be healers if played right. A game with FoTM classes running around (especially with only 4 classes) is devoid of depth and experimentation, which is why this game is so difficult to balance properly because it lends heavily to dynamic customization.
Also, Templars do have pretty decent damage. My Dark Flares crit for 19k, and I can get 27k single target dps by 2 shotting with Dark Flares and ending with a Radiant Oppression. Sorcerers may have better sustain and Nightblades have better burst, but that doesn't mean Templars have terrible damage. My biggest gripe is people saying that Templars should "only be healers," because even in the current state of the game, we can be much more than that.

@Ampnode Give me one example of a DK ability that fails to function, and maybe then I'll agree that DK's need more help than Templars. Otherwise, start your own thread.

Ampnode wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Ampnode - It's amazing how much you are convinced you are right when nobody agrees with you.

It's amazing how much you are convinced that a number next to "Agree" means you're right/wrong, and because the 12K+ people viewing the thread didn't click the "Agree" button to my posts, that it means I'm wrong; therefore, it must mean you're wrong too if that's the case.

Carry on creating whine threads. I'll be laughing it up when ZoS gives Templars everything begged for here. Will be enjoyable watching the "Templar OP" threads spread like wildfire, because we definitely still haven't learned by now with what happened to NBs getting what they want. You guys need bug fixes, not class buffs.

@bikerangelo A class's skill doesn't need to be broken for it to be considered underpowered. As stated above, "You guys need bug fixes, not class buffs."

Ampnode wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Ampnode - It's amazing how much you are convinced you are right when nobody agrees with you.

It's amazing how much you are convinced that a number next to "Agree" means you're right/wrong, and because the 12K+ people viewing the thread didn't click the "Agree" button to my posts, that it means I'm wrong; therefore, it must mean you're wrong too if that's the case.

Carry on creating whine threads. I'll be laughing it up when ZoS gives Templars everything begged for here. Will be enjoyable watching the "Templar OP" threads spread like wildfire, because we definitely still haven't learned by now with what happened to NBs getting what they want. You guys need bug fixes, not class buffs.

@bikerangelo A class's skill doesn't need to be broken for it to be considered underpowered. As stated above, "You guys need bug fixes, not class buffs."

I'm not derailing, but using this as another bump for #fixtemplars2016... My question to you @Ampnode is, do you play a sorc or a nb?

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ampnode wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

And yet everything you've listed isn't going to happen. A class shouldn't have every ability in the game. Wanna know what happens when they do? Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything. Give EVERY class EVERYthing and it makes EVERYone the same. I mean, might as well just have one global class at the rate of people complaining their class doesn't have a certain ability another does. Better yet, just remove classes altogether and let people choose between every skill.

Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers

ZoS has stated class roles before for a reason. Then everyone wanted to "play how they wanted to play" and now everything has completely gone to hell. But by all means, lets keep posting about how we want every ability in the game and give "CLASSES" no difference between each other.

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Did you even read my post? I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each except Templar. Dude, at least read before answering.

Ampnode wrote: »

P.S

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP

- Because they're meant to.

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar, i have only respond from Wrobel on Reddit that templar DD capabilities will be improved to make them equal to other classes. Seems we playing different game.

---

@Thalia this bug caused by high server latency. You can see on video of lagzura when it not wasting ultimate, the worse latency is the higfhest rate to get this bug. Ult still suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwMTkh-LsWk

Cinbri wrote: »

I wrote that every class has every specific skill/passive in each aspect of class balance from paragraph 1 to paragraph 7, each b]except[/b] Templar.

Here you go again about classes having this and that while yours doesn't. Did you ever come to think in the little bit of logic that you have yet to display that the passives and skills selected for a class are like that for a reason? I'll post what I said again. "Take a look at NB, for example. Now everyone's calling them the new OP class because they have literally everything, and yet nobody has realized this until now once they do have everything." Based on those 7 paragraphs of comparing your class to another, it seems as though the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for, again, a reason.

Cinbri wrote: »

Link me quote of ZOS moderator about "intended" healer role for templar

Sorry, but I don't have every quote from ZoS moderators bookmarked/copied on a notepad. If you really don't believe that there were class specific roles at one point, then you must not have played since beta. "Sorcs - Burst DPS; NBs - Stealth(Insta-DPS); DKs - Tanks; Templars - Healers" Not only that, but it's blatantly obvious based on the skills/passives the classes get. Especially back in the early days of ESO when being a stamplar/stam DK/stam sorc/stamblade was unheard of.

If the 7 paragraphs you posted that compare your class to another was to simply point out what your class unfortunately doesn't have, then you probably shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Because again, the passives/skills selected for those classes were chosen for a reason(At some point back when everyone didn't complain about wanting to be a different role for their class).

And just in case if you're wondering, I'm a mag dk main. If there's a class that's "suffering" far worse, it'd be the almighty mag dk.

in the classdescription: Templar used to be the only class where it was written that they deal "massive dmg". No other class was described that specific in terms of dmg. But its a fact that templar was never a good DD. NEVER! and he is not even close.

Also its not only about certain classskills we are supposed to have or not, the ones we have do not work properly and give us huge disadvantages in terms of game mechanics, we consist of channeling skills and at that point ZOS forgot entirely about their "not indeded but accepted" attack weaving and skipping.

Thats a mechanic we can not profit of and that is very important especially in pvp. Jabs doesnt do more dmg than instant surpr attack in pvp.
It even does less dmg and takes our entire defense away for 1.1 seconds and.... takes 1.1 seconds, in that time a nb can do 2 surpr. attacks and each of them does 8k dmg on a strong build.

So following classstereotypes or not. Mechanics have to be changed. Also we had passives in the past like "restoring spirit" that gave us magicka on each attack to match battle roar and the nb regen or the sorc costreduction. It was taken away but would have fit the class more than just 4% flat reduction. Tha doesnt even fit to the name of the passive. We need a big rework here.

@Ampnode could you pls play the game in pve and pvp???

you said:
1.DKs/temps can't outdps NB/Sorc, wtf??? DKs have the strongest sustained-DPS right now and only sorc-overload does more dps.

2. Temps aren't build for stamina: sure...i think that's the reason they have 6% extra wepdmg and extra stam regen with repentance

could go on with things like this, but pls think about it yourself.