Thanks @Wrobel for the quick recap!
Question for the community; should Champion points alter dmg / heals in the first place? I know its a very popular placement for CP's but do we want the black hole associated with offering an increase then a way to counter it?
Is it easy to turn points over to effect how skills are used versus the dmg themselves?
Examples:
- decrease cast time for magicka spells
- increase range of arrows
- increase elemental status effect chance
- increase magicka penetration. (Which we already have spell pen.)
Then you have passives that alter the way you play:
- 6% chance on spell penetration to chain lighting.
- % chance at multiple penetration with arrow
- increased crit hit dmg and chance with melee when you hit behind a enemy
- heal allies for 1000 when you dispel a negative effect. Occurs only once per 6 seconds.
You get the idea. Thoughts?
i still think we should have some star to burst damage against shields in the champion system, @Derra
you can have your opinion too, np
It would hit everyone really. Basically every build apart from magica sorcs (which would get hit by taking bastion) relies on selfheals. Nothing templar exclusive.
One could counter and say, the CP's that increase dmg shouldn't exist either.
Ezareth said it best, ZOS needs to let the players understand how they Invision Champion points from concept to implementation. Then we can really start to balance this aspect of ESO.
It's like me walking into a meeting, telling a client "you'll get 'x' if we do 'y'." But come launch I just put out 'cvfg'anyway without communication or presenting the proposed changes. End result is that our expectations aren't met because our vision differs from ZOS's.
They are on the right track though with this.
But these actually have counters in the cp system (apart from physical dmg). So no not a valid point.
Yea but they have a soft counter; the fact you have to make a choice between healer or dps . 10 points into blessed means you can lose out on hitting 100 points in thaumaturge. If you do have thaumaturge maxed, you have to give up spell pen or crit.
Flip side, for stam build they don't need blessed because they have a heal that works with weapon crit/dmg, thus a CP dedicated towards adding to weapon crit heals. Counter to that is also not on the CP system; they only have two heals and no access to Templar heal passives.
My argument is that if you want to buff your healing, you have to remove points from dmg points. Same for tanking. There shouldn't be an actual counter point for healing, since the dps class or dps options whole point of existing IS TO REDUCE your health points.
ZOS just needs to show us a preliminary CP system for the new update, and their vision for said system. Because without that we can go in circles what should get removed versus others.
@Wrobel Could you clarify what you mean by this? For instance a Sorcerer wont need to put points into Thaumaturge and Elemental Expert?Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:
- No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage
Calling all ESO forum posters! We are currently reviewing the Champion System bonuses and would love hear your feedback on them. Our goals for this review are:
- Ensure bonuses have a counter weight
- Improve infrequently selected bonuses
- Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing
Ensure every bonus has a counter weight:
For the Champion System, every offensive bonus should have a defensive counterpart and vice versa. For example: Offensive players can get increased spell penetration from Spell Erosion, while defensive players can get increased spell resistance from Spell Shield.
Improve infrequently selected bonuses:
Some of the Champion Point stars are much less popular than others. It’s not intended that all specs are equally useful, but they should be somewhat useful for some playstyle. Nourishing is a great example of a passive we are looking at in our review. It’s in the same constellation as Quick Recovery and gives a similar bonus of increased healing. However, Nourishing only works every 45 seconds when you can use a potion and Quick Recovery works all the time on all abilities, from both ally and self cast sources.
Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.
We would love to hear what your top three changes would be to the Champion bonuses. Keep in mind the criteria above, and as always, please keep things constructive!
Calling all ESO forum posters! We are currently reviewing the Champion System bonuses and would love hear your feedback on them. Our goals for this review are:
- Ensure bonuses have a counter weight
- Improve infrequently selected bonuses
- Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing
Ensure every bonus has a counter weight:
For the Champion System, every offensive bonus should have a defensive counterpart and vice versa. For example: Offensive players can get increased spell penetration from Spell Erosion, while defensive players can get increased spell resistance from Spell Shield.
Improve infrequently selected bonuses:
Some of the Champion Point stars are much less popular than others. It’s not intended that all specs are equally useful, but they should be somewhat useful for some playstyle. Nourishing is a great example of a passive we are looking at in our review. It’s in the same constellation as Quick Recovery and gives a similar bonus of increased healing. However, Nourishing only works every 45 seconds when you can use a potion and Quick Recovery works all the time on all abilities, from both ally and self cast sources.
Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.
We would love to hear what your top three changes would be to the Champion bonuses. Keep in mind the criteria above, and as always, please keep things constructive!
Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:There are also a bunch of cool ideas in here for new stars, which we’re keeping in mind!
- Ensuring equality between Stamina and Magicka users with the new counter weights in place
- Combining together some of the weaker Champion passives
- No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage
We also want to make an edit to the original post. Befoul is currently working correctly, however we do want to ensure it's a proper counter weight to the increased healing passive. Apologies for the confusion. We've updated the last section on clarity and replaced the example so it now reads as follows:
“It’s unclear exactly how some champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.”
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Please stop asking for soft caps, people! Soft caps would break the Champion System, and that would break ESO.
What is the point of playing the game hour after hour if my progression is rendered null and void by a mathematical nerf wall?!
Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:There are also a bunch of cool ideas in here for new stars, which we’re keeping in mind!
- Ensuring equality between Stamina and Magicka users with the new counter weights in place
- Combining together some of the weaker Champion passives
- No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage
We also want to make an edit to the original post. Befoul is currently working correctly, however we do want to ensure it's a proper counter weight to the increased healing passive. Apologies for the confusion. We've updated the last section on clarity and replaced the example so it now reads as follows:
“It’s unclear exactly how some champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.”
Fight as I might, ESO's balancing is leaning heavily towards DPS vs HPS, with defense being increasingly marginalized in the standoff. Balancing the Champion System is a chance to fight the tide.
Wanted to add, the same is true for PvE content... just look at PvE content like Maelstrom Arena, which forces people to go full on DPS (preferably magicka / ranged at that), trying anything else is just going to make life much harder for you.
The primary stat in ESO is Damage.
1. I'd like to see a cumulative cap on aspects of the champion system that combine. For example my searing strike fire dot rolls through, spell mitigation, elemental mitigation and dot mitigation. If the CP cap on spell mitigation is 20% I think the maximum my fire dots should be reduced by is 20%...regardless of how many CP mitigations it checked against.
2. This is complex and I don't have a balanced solution but I'll mention it anyway. Certain things increase stats by a flat amount and other things increase your stats by percentage. This means that already strong power skews can be made even stronger easily but the weaknesses have a harder time developing because their base value is low. So in my magicka build I want stamina regen but my regen is low to begin with so I don't get as much as I would by investing in magicka. Or in my heavy armor build I want to get spell penetration but since I have no base spell penetration I get almost nothing out of it. I'd like to have the ability to develop my weaknesses better. Maybe flat amounts are the way to go across the board. They allow low stats to rise evenly and prevent high stats from accelerating out of control. That said, this is a raw thought and needs some deep consideration as to the balance consequences of it. (posters please challenge this if you think it's bad)
3. Give us a real UI so we can see these values on our character sheet without using harvens extended stats which isn't always accurate.
@Wrobel, "Ensure bonuses have a counter weight"
bastion - "increases the effectivness of damage absorb effects" aka OP damage shields
i think we should have some place in the cp system to buff damage against shields
@Wrobel, "Ensure bonuses have a counter weight"
bastion - "increases the effectivness of damage absorb effects" aka OP damage shields
i think we should have some place in the cp system to buff damage against shields
With that train of thought you´d have to remove all healing passives aswell as they don´t have a counter weight and you can´t design one.
Edit: Don´t get me wrong i´d be all in favor of removing bastion and healing passives alltogether but your statement is mixing class/ability balance with CP balance. You have to seperate the two.
@Derra , there is a counter weight to healing passives: befoul (Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities)
No it is not. Befoul requires the use of healdebuffs (which are counterable with purge) in the first place to work.
Bastion, Blessed and Quick Recovery work without the requirement of specific buffs/debuffs on the target/self. You could compare the two if for example blessed only worked on major mending (30% increased healing buff) and would modify it´s value - this is not the case.
These passives are flat modifiers that have no counter in the CP system.
Befoul also has no counter weight. It´s counterweight however would be a passive reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs - NOT blessed or quick recovery.
If befoul were to counterweight healing passives it would have to reduce healing without any requirement (a passive healing debuff applied on any interaction with the target + there would be no way to determine it´s duration).
You would also have to split up the passive as it would require one to reduce outgoing healing and one to reduce all healing taken to be a proper counterweight for blessed + quick recovery.
You´re comparing apples and oranges and try to sell both as peaches atm.
ALL the damage CP are the counter to healing. Damage (-number) vs Healing (+number).
Befoul doesn't have a CP counter, where you increase your mending buff momentarily.
Calling all ESO forum posters! We are currently reviewing the Champion System bonuses and would love hear your feedback on them. Our goals for this review are:
- Ensure bonuses have a counter weight
- Improve infrequently selected bonuses
- Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing
Ensure every bonus has a counter weight:
For the Champion System, every offensive bonus should have a defensive counterpart and vice versa. For example: Offensive players can get increased spell penetration from Spell Erosion, while defensive players can get increased spell resistance from Spell Shield.
Improve infrequently selected bonuses:
Some of the Champion Point stars are much less popular than others. It’s not intended that all specs are equally useful, but they should be somewhat useful for some playstyle. Nourishing is a great example of a passive we are looking at in our review. It’s in the same constellation as Quick Recovery and gives a similar bonus of increased healing. However, Nourishing only works every 45 seconds when you can use a potion and Quick Recovery works all the time on all abilities, from both ally and self cast sources.
Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.
We would love to hear what your top three changes would be to the Champion bonuses. Keep in mind the criteria above, and as always, please keep things constructive!
@Wrobel -- thanks for starting this discussion.
From your list:
1. Ensure bonuses have a counter-weight.
- Replace "Thick Skinned" with "decrease physical damage". Hardy and Elemental defender cover all other DoTs except bleeds, which would then be covered by the new bonus.
- Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Focus passives need to be consolidated into a single "increase armor by [X]%" passive.
- Add equivalent of "Spell Shield" for physical resistance.
2. Improve infrequently selected bonuses.
- Add a "increase movement speed by X%" in place of one of the removed passives (in Steed star).
- Increase bonus of "Phase" by 10x or replace.
- Replace "Reinforced" with something like "Regenerate stamina while blocking for the first 3s"
- "Resilient" and "Critical Leach" are good in concept, but the strength of the bonus is poor. Improve by 5-10x.
- "Physician", "Infusion", and "Revival" are just bad. Consolidate into one "after res" bonus then add two other more interesting passives.
- "Determination" is horrrrrrible. Don't even know what to do with this.
- "Vengeance" needs to be re-worked since blocking is no longer viable for magic users. Perhaps change to "after you are hit by 3 spells, cooldown 10s".
- "Foresight" needs to be slightly better, perhaps reduce cost of next 3 spells or something.
- "Arcane Well" pales in comparison to "Unchained". Simply remove the %chance and add a cooldown.
- Consolidate Blade, Heavy Weapon, and Bow expert.
- "Mara's gift" and "Inspiration Boost" should be replace.
- "War Mount" should provide an effective while in combat, e.g. be able to mount in combat.
- "Wind Running" should be +5-10% movespeed.
- Improve the bonus of "Shade"
- Remove "Fortune Seeker", "Treasure Hunter", "Merchant Favored", "Plentiful Harvest", and "Master Gather". These need to be added into a track of achievable bonuses NOT connected to the CP system since they do not improve the power of your character. For instance, tie them to achievement points or Undaunted Ranks.
3. Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they're doing.
I suggest simply posting the formulas. Make a toggle in the options menu to display them when you mouse-over each star.Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:There are also a bunch of cool ideas in here for new stars, which we’re keeping in mind!
- Ensuring equality between Stamina and Magicka users with the new counter weights in place
- Combining together some of the weaker Champion passives
- No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage
We also want to make an edit to the original post. Befoul is currently working correctly, however we do want to ensure it's a proper counter weight to the increased healing passive. Apologies for the confusion. We've updated the last section on clarity and replaced the example so it now reads as follows:
“It’s unclear exactly how some champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.”
In order to achieve bullet point one you will need to add more options for stamina skills. Third morphs of class skills would be welcome.
See suggestions above for how to combine weaker champion passives.
I don't think the multiple stars for damage is a big deal -- the class skills simply need to be re-balance. For instance, Dark Talons does three types of damage: physical, Fire, and magic. Stuff like this needs to be fixed.
In general, one of the biggest flaws of the CP system -- in the long run -- is that there are no limits. It is implied that players will be able to get everything. I suggest a permanent cap somewhere along the line that enables the choice of 1 or 2, 120-pt passives. This will require players to choose carefully how they place their CPs, rather than simply taking everything. As such, the 120-pt passives need to be rethought made more meaningful so that class builds can be based around them (or not). A good example is the suggestion to return some stamina regen while blocking for the first few seconds.
Another feature of the game meta is that most players focus completely on damage. There are a huge range of reasons for this
(1) no soft caps
(2) you get zero AP for "surviving"
(3) magicka/stamina divide forces players to choose one or the other
(4) unlimited resources enabled by CPs
(5) low HP totals
(6) improving damage ALSO improves defense and healing (e.g. Hardened Ward and Healing Ward get bigger with higher mana, healing gets bigger with more spell power and mana, vigor heals for more with higher damage).
The point is, soft caps needs to be considered. Carefully. Hybrid builds would make a huge comeback. Some sets would become more relevant.
The counter to healing debuffs are purge and minor + major mending though.
Not trying to argue about magica DK being in a bad state - but this topic is about the cp system. Don´t mix this with class/ability balance.
RoamingRiverElk wrote: »The counter to healing debuffs are purge and minor + major mending though.
Not trying to argue about magica DK being in a bad state - but this topic is about the cp system. Don´t mix this with class/ability balance.
They are intricately weaved together though - CP system and classes. We couldn't give any feedback on the CP system without considering how PvP and classes are in this game, unless we just want to talk pure theory - but while talking about pure theory can be interesting, there's the danger that that pure theory could be implemented without considering the context - the actual state of the game now, with all the things that affect gameplay.
CPs should be allowing for build diversity and helping each magicka/stamina/class combo. Another option could of course be buffing healing in general and removing it from the CP system completely. In any case, I'm bringing up an example about how changes to the CP system would affect a certain combo very negatively. And on the other hand, that very same change would affect other classes less - those that already are in a pretty good state compared to other classes/combos.
One could also say that with the current high DPS state of the game, minor and major mending are counters to high damage. And that high damage is a counter to minor and major mending. They aren't *literally* that, but in reality, they are. Looking at the CP system simply from the point of view of whether everything has a counter within the CP system is not fruitful in my opinion, because it can just as easily lead to other imbalances, which is something that I believe we're actually trying to avoid here.
Edit: I do of course think that classes should be looked at individually too.
Edit edit: Another point to discuss would be: is it a problem with the CP system or a problem with the class, that a magicka DK needs more CPs to be viable than a magicka sorcerer (just as examples I'm familiar with)? One could argue either way.
RoamingRiverElk wrote: »The counter to healing debuffs are purge and minor + major mending though.
Not trying to argue about magica DK being in a bad state - but this topic is about the cp system. Don´t mix this with class/ability balance.
They are intricately weaved together though - CP system and classes. We couldn't give any feedback on the CP system without considering how PvP and classes are in this game, unless we just want to talk pure theory - but while talking about pure theory can be interesting, there's the danger that that pure theory could be implemented without considering the context - the actual state of the game now, with all the things that affect gameplay.
CPs should be allowing for build diversity and helping each magicka/stamina/class combo. Another option could of course be buffing healing in general and removing it from the CP system completely. In any case, I'm bringing up an example about how changes to the CP system would affect a certain combo very negatively. And on the other hand, that very same change would affect other classes less - those that already are in a pretty good state compared to other classes/combos.
One could also say that with the current high DPS state of the game, minor and major mending are counters to high damage. And that high damage is a counter to minor and major mending. They aren't *literally* that, but in reality, they are. Looking at the CP system simply from the point of view of whether everything has a counter within the CP system is not fruitful in my opinion, because it can just as easily lead to other imbalances, which is something that I believe we're actually trying to avoid here.
Edit: I do of course think that classes should be looked at individually too.
Edit edit: Another point to discuss would be: is it a problem with the CP system or a problem with the class, that a magicka DK needs more CPs to be viable than a magicka sorcerer (just as examples I'm familiar with)? One could argue either way.
I strongly disagree on that point. The champion system has to provide a solid base for countless class/skill and build combinations (that´s how it should have been created in the first place - as it was not we now have to talk on a completely abstract theoretical level without looking at the state of classes).
This means (from my perspective ofc) it has to be discussed and balanced on a theoretical level to be able to provide that base in the first place - because it´s currently failing at doing that by blantantly favoring certain playstyles in different scenarios.
With your way of arguing you would lock certain classes into stars as obvious choices (such as bastion - which i´d also like to see removed - for sorcs) removing choice and idividuality from the system as by your approach a class is only in a balanced state when x points are spent into star y - not good if you ask me.
After the CP system has been brought to an internal balance with ideally every star being vaiable aswell as having their own counter within the CP system - then ZOS can truely begin to balance class performance without having to always worry about creating strange/unexpected synergies by class <=> championtree interactions.
Balance the CP system => balance classes = game changes => only balance classes no more worries about cp system as the basis is balanced.
Balance classes based on CP system and vice versa => game changes => balance again for both => and so on...
Edit: Why would you argue a magica DK needs more CP than a sorcerer to be effective in pvp? True the class is not in the best spot for pvp right now but i fail to see where it would need more points than a sorc.